The only phased attacks I have ever seen are on either side of a gate when the first wave fails to kill the freighter by a small margin. Furthermore, though alpha is used occasionally among the rare suicide gank in high true sec systems, pirates drive by a profit motive almost always use DPS in a prestaged 0.5-0.6 system since the required number of ships is much lower.

It's much like the lone gunman argument in security. Alpha like a determined lone gunman is nigh unpreventable. Fortunately lone gunmen and alpha suicides are rare. All legitimate strategy discussions revolve around high DPS.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the mechanics of a concord response (having never been stupid enough to carry enough in my ship to create the opportunity). I was under the impression that about 20 seconds (in 0.5) after the initial volley, concord comes and insta-gibs you. It doesn't matter if you had one ship or 200 ships, they're all going to die ~20 seconds after they first aggress. Most battlecruisers will get off two volleys in that time right? Destroyers (which don't get used anymore for this purpose as I understand) get off three. While it may be playing semantics, I'd consider two shots in 10-12 seconds to be "essentially" an alpha strike. There's almost nothing that a freighter can do in that 10-12 seconds and very little shield regen is going to happen.

I guess my point is that they wouldn't be shooting at the freighter over a matter of minutes with a bumper CONSTANTLY bumping the freighter. They might need ONE bump and then 15-20 seconds of shooting.

If I'm misunderstanding something, let me know. As I said, this is a knowledge gap I'm trying to correct.

A Neutron Blaster Cannon II with all gunnery skills at IV gets off I think 3-4 volleys before concord shows up, at which point they neut and ECM you. You are smart and have fitted and overheated ECCM so you have a couple more volleys, meanwhile your Hobgoblin IIs are ignored and continue to fire away merrily. It's more complicated then that, also gate guns, but it gets the point across. Either way you need significantly less ships if you use high DPS high ROF blasters than if you use high alpha artillery.

Thanks... That's a much more nuanced result then my previous mental image of "magic NPC ships go up and you find yourself in a shiny new pod" ;)

NOW I understand the roll of bumping to keep the freighter locked down for closer to a minute. Interesting.

No problem, here to help. Also, since the profit margin is often so thin and the pirate is dependent on all the ships deliver as much DPS as possible it makes counter strategies like blackbirds or logis viable. Nothing ruins a pirates day than a freighter jumping out at 5% structure because some ******* good Samaritan. Except for maybe getting the wreck blown up before you can scoop it.

Note to self: Open alt corp offering safe escort through Uedama.

A Neutron Blaster Cannon II with all gunnery skills at IV gets off I think 3-4 volleys before concord shows up, at which point they neut and ECM you. You are smart and have fitted and overheated ECCM so you have a couple more volleys, meanwhile your Hobgoblin IIs are ignored and continue to fire away merrily. It's more complicated then that, also gate guns, but it gets the point across. Either way you need significantly less ships if you use high DPS high ROF blasters than if you use high alpha artillery.

Note: concord is not an instant death, it's inevitable death. You will be hit with an infinite point, a heavy neut, and a lot of webs. The DPS is high, but not instantaneous.

Okay... Some terms are getting thrown around and clearly there's some definitional disconnects

Cost = Expense and is NOT the same thing as Risk

Risk = uncertainty

The GANKING aspect of freighter ganking (i.e. blowing the thing up) has no uncertainty (i.e. "risk") on the cost side.

What IS risky is the payoff. Absolutely. Both Malphilos and I concede that. But it doesn't change the equation on the cost side of things which is fixed with no "risk" associated with it.

The main issue with freighters is they are a one size fits all solution

I would gladly fly something intermediary sized say 200-300k m3 if I could add a fitting or two

I think they should redesign freighters so that you could fit for defense or turning but have cargo drop off dramatically as you upped your fitting.

What ends up happening most of the time is I tank an orca for those high value jobs since its much safer than a freighter.

But it would be nice to have something with dedicated cargo slightly larger that I could fit.

A JF is on the shopping list but it's a 7B$$$ isk target.

I am thinking of a solution for the masses .... think station wagon/mini van vs High end BMW SUV

Close, but not quite.

Cost = cost. Risk = probability +ù cost.

Personally I find that a well made Lamb Vindaloo tastes, and smells much better 24 hours after purchase. Not so 24 hours after consuming, however.

Close, but not quite.

Cost = cost. Risk = probability +ù cost.
GǪwhich means that the risk = cost, since the probability is 1. A 100% certainty does not make it risk-free GÇö quite the opposite: it makes the risk correspond to the full value of the cost. So the ganking is all risk.

The reward is also a risk, but with a negative cost, which is added to this base risk. Since the base risk is always more than 0, and the reward can be 0, there is always GÇö unavoidably GÇö risk in a suicide gank.
GǪexcept that the cost side is all risk, because that's how risk is defined.

I refer you here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk

I'm in the process of an ERM implementation. I can tell you that things that are 100% probability of occuring are NOT put in the risk bucket nor are they even included in most of our models.

What has been referred to as "risk" for the gankers is, on the cost side, not anything that a risk manager would worry about.

Nothing like breaking down a plain old gank into demonstrations of numeracy and literary prowess is there?

blahblahblah, stuff in which we agree to disagree and both cite a wikipedia article that supports and hurts our respective positions

blahblahblah, stuff in which we agree to disagree and both cite a wikipedia article that supports and hurts our respective positions

The broad point was that the cost is fairly well known in a gank and the revenue is where you can focus your attention (which I think we can both agree is where the largest uncertainty in the whole equation comes in).

I think if Concord had a 50/50 shot at killing you, you'd see ganking evolve to be more risky.

Hey, you picked it, not me. It's not my problem if the first thing it says is what I'm sayingGǪ

A Neutron Blaster Cannon II with all gunnery skills at IV gets off I think 3-4 volleys before concord shows up, at which point they neut and ECM you. You are smart and have fitted and overheated ECCM so you have a couple more volleys, meanwhile your Hobgoblin IIs are ignored and continue to fire away merrily. It's more complicated then that, also gate guns, but it gets the point across. Either way you need significantly less ships if you use high DPS high ROF blasters than if you use high alpha artillery.

Note: concord is not an instant death, it's inevitable death. You will be hit with an infinite point, a heavy neut, and a lot of webs. The DPS is high, but not instantaneous.

Could it be done with lets say a Naga instead of a Talos for someone trained in caldari racial ship or is the talos used because it's THAT much better?

The Talos has two more low slots and a hull bonus for hybrid damage to boot.

Same dmg bonus on naga. I guess tracking bonus is better than optimal range for ganking and low slots beats meds too.

As an uber-noob player, this thread as been extemely information.

1. Lot's of what not to do's
2. Lot's of game mechanics I wasn't aware of.
3. Lot's of things to further research.
4. How lively these forums can be.

Thanks to all.

No problem, here to help. Also, since the profit margin is often so thin and the pirate is dependent on all the ships deliver as much DPS as possible it makes counter strategies like blackbirds or logis viable. Nothing ruins a pirates day than a freighter jumping out at 5% structure because some ******* good Samaritan. Except for maybe getting the wreck blown up before you can scoop it.

Since you're willing to give tips etc, is my post here a viable ganker counter to slinging?