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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
84
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Posted - 2012.09.29 18:34:00 -
[301] - Quote
MIrple wrote:I'm Down wrote:If I'm not mistaken, this puts the new Caldari Missile destroyer in the 200 - 210 DPS at 60+ km range
Does this not negate everything you have already said about HML's, range and damage projection considering this is following the current trends and not the new path you guys were trying to lay down? Think these ships are meant to operate with precisions what would the range be with this type of ammo fitted?
yes, because using a hawk getting 200 dps with light missiles is so game breaking right now ...a destroyer with less tank and less speed and more sig radius will make it even more game breaking!
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Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
604
|
Posted - 2012.09.29 18:36:00 -
[302] - Quote
The electronic attack ships are horribly broken. I love the belief that the sentinel's role will be infringed upon. I haven't seen one of those in months and I'm in FW, land of frigs and destroyers. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
84
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Posted - 2012.09.29 18:37:00 -
[303] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
MINMATAR DESTROYER:
Ship bonuses: +5% to rocket and light missile explosion damage per level
is this explosion velocity bonus or a bonus to all damage types? <_< |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2288
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Posted - 2012.09.29 18:38:00 -
[304] - Quote
Denuo Secus wrote:- Frigates and assault frigs are very strong now - especially when ASB fitted. It's good they have a hard counter.
I don't think you really understand how hard of a counter we are talking about here. Let's compare it to some ships that are commonly considered "frigate munchers" to such a degree that it's widely considered to be 100% impossible for a frigate to win the fight.
If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application. Comparing it to today's 280mm Arty Thrasher, we see that it has the same volley, similar DPS, significantly better general damage application, no tracking problems, and 5x the range.
I mean, I'm all for having ships that are 'strong' against another ship class. But this isn't an example of that.
-Liang
Ed: Honestly, this feels like CCP throwing the Caldari a bone over the HML nerf. "Look, we don't hate Caldari! You guys have the only Destroyer worth flying anymore!" Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
131
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Posted - 2012.09.29 18:51:00 -
[305] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:I think you should lock the Amarr and Gallente drone Bonus to their racial Dmg Types. Why? Because the uproar might actually make you fix Amarr Drones. Play nice now Yes yes, we know they need to be looked, poor things. Holy crap, I think this is the first acknowledgement by a dev that Amarr drones are subpar. I have a spreadsheet somewhere analyzing just why they're subpar, but I'd think it's obvious. The destroyers look great, and the Minmatar one is REALLY SCARY. Keep being awesome! the reason they are subpar is because drone ships should not be good at every damage type...just like most missile ships get locked into kinetic. Most missile ships are starting to lose their kinetic bonus and getting a ROF bonus instead, opening up their damage types... just like projectiles. |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
68
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Posted - 2012.09.29 18:58:00 -
[306] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application.
You do udnerstand that AML caracal has a hard time breaking some of the top t1 frigates these days and if it's boosted by warfare links, it cannot break them even with max missile skills.
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Cpt Gobla
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
120
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Posted - 2012.09.29 19:03:00 -
[307] - Quote
I've seen it mentioned several times that Destroyer by definition have to be anti-Frigate vessels and I do have to ask, why?
I mean I'm aware that was the original naval definition of such a vessel, but we're flying now, not sailing. Not to mention that most of EvE's ship classes don't fully match their naval counterparts, only the tier 3 BCs are real battlecruisers in the naval sense. The others would likely be classed as armoured cruisers.
If both Destroyers have exactly the same role, fragile frigate killers, then chances are pretty damn high that of each race one hull will be considered superior and the other will hardly ever be used. They both fill the same role and as such will be measured by the same qualities.
The prime consideration when designing these ships and their role should be the EvE universe, not irrelevant definitions of an entirely different form of warfare. |
Dread Pirate Pete
Tribal Core Defiant Legacy
49
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Posted - 2012.09.29 19:09:00 -
[308] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The electronic attack ships are horribly broken. I love the belief that the sentinel's role will be infringed upon. I haven't seen one of those in months and I'm in FW, land of frigs and destroyers.
The problem is that Sentinels are terribad at tanking plexes, nobody likes losing T2 ships to rats, I expect to see a lot more of them after the winter expansions change to fw rats. I will certainly give one a thwirl, especially with the upsurge of cap dependant hybrid and laser frigs after the latesr rebalances. |
Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
604
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Posted - 2012.09.29 19:12:00 -
[309] - Quote
If you make Destroyers too fast, too tanky, or give them too much utility they can replace frigates. It's as simple a that. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
588
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Posted - 2012.09.29 19:18:00 -
[310] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Denuo Secus wrote:- Frigates and assault frigs are very strong now - especially when ASB fitted. It's good they have a hard counter.
I don't think you really understand how hard of a counter we are talking about here. Let's compare it to some ships that are commonly considered "frigate munchers" to such a degree that it's widely considered to be 100% impossible for a frigate to win the fight. If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application. Comparing it to today's 280mm Arty Thrasher, we see that it has the same volley, similar DPS, significantly better general damage application, no tracking problems, and 5x the range. I mean, I'm all for having ships that are 'strong' against another ship class. But this isn't an example of that. -Liang Ed: Honestly, this feels like CCP throwing the Caldari a bone over the HML nerf. "Look, we don't hate Caldari! You guys have the only Destroyer worth flying anymore!"
aml right? so that like comparing duel 150s rails? those have crap dps too right? but 8 or 7 would do more then 8 lml or 150's...
like whats the dps ona drake with 7 aml? or a brutix with 7 duel 150's?
though i am sure a caracal would pwn the cal dessie... due to it being a glass launcher... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
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Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility Kraken.
70
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Posted - 2012.09.29 19:22:00 -
[311] - Quote
Heard CCP was introducing new and "overpowered" destroyer. Apparently this Caldari destroyer was so crazy and sh!t. I'm not to sure about that. However, it seems like the Gallente destroyer might be the winner here, but I could be wrong v0v
Thing looks like a mix of the Ishkur/Harpy's range bonus plus a random damage bonus to 2 weapon systems (Ecm drones, kite or go b@lls deep).
Pure guerilla.
Not to sure about the Amarr destroyer though. Seems to have that issue with too much of its damage in drones and not enough else where. I'm not sure it would survive a battol with the new Caldari or Minmatar destroyer. Much less a Art-Thrasher... We'll see! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2288
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Posted - 2012.09.29 19:52:00 -
[312] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application. You do udnerstand that AML caracal has a hard time breaking some of the top t1 frigates these days and if it's boosted by warfare links, it cannot break them even with max missile skills.
I don't think you properly understand what's going on here. The Caldari destroyer will have the alpha of a 280mm Arty Thrasher. It will literally volley completely through a quad ASB Merlin's shields every single volley. It will literally volley any attack frigate, every single volley.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
238
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Posted - 2012.09.29 19:57:00 -
[313] - Quote
Cpt Gobla wrote:I've seen it mentioned several times that Destroyer by definition have to be anti-Frigate vessels and I do have to ask, why?
I mean I'm aware that was the original naval definition of such a vessel, but we're flying now, not sailing. Not to mention that most of EvE's ship classes don't fully match their naval counterparts, only the tier 3 BCs are real battlecruisers in the naval sense. The others would likely be classed as armoured cruisers.
If both Destroyers have exactly the same role, fragile frigate killers, then chances are pretty damn high that of each race one hull will be considered superior and the other will hardly ever be used. They both fill the same role and as such will be measured by the same qualities.
The prime consideration when designing these ships and their role should be the EvE universe, not irrelevant definitions of an entirely different form of warfare.
Nah the role is down to weapon systems, so that early players (the ones using t1 dessies in the main) can choose on or the other. Not everyone in game has all skills trained and they need to make a choice.
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
163
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Posted - 2012.09.29 19:59:00 -
[314] - Quote
Major Killz wrote: However, it seems like the Gallente destroyer might be the winner here, but I could be wrong v0v
You are wrong, the new gallente destroyer is garbage, it does what the catalyst does but much worse and will have a much harder time applying drone damage than the Tristan. Both of the Tristan and Catalyst will destroy this new one without fail. Ideas for Dorne Improvement https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1658683#post1658683 Updated 9/21/12 |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2288
|
Posted - 2012.09.29 19:59:00 -
[315] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: aml right? so that like comparing duel 150s rails? those have crap dps too right? but 8 or 7 would do more then 8 lml or 150's...
like whats the dps ona drake with 7 aml? or a brutix with 7 duel 150's?
though i am sure a caracal would pwn the cal dessie... due to it being a glass launcher...
Your post doesn't even make sense. Can you please come back with an argument that uses full sentences to explain what you're trying to get at? Are you trying to say it's got low DPS? Are you trying to say that the Drake will still kill it? What are you getting at?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
238
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Posted - 2012.09.29 20:10:00 -
[316] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Yuri Intaki wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application. You do udnerstand that AML caracal has a hard time breaking some of the top t1 frigates these days and if it's boosted by warfare links, it cannot break them even with max missile skills. I don't think you properly understand what's going on here. The Caldari destroyer will have the alpha of a 280mm Arty Thrasher. It will literally volley completely through a quad ASB Merlin's shields every single volley. It will literally volley any attack frigate, every single volley. -Liang
Idk what thrashers you been flying, but they can't even volley a dual rep incursus that is stationary. An incursus or merlin will have repped back up before the next volley anyway. Really being able to kill unbuffered t1 frigs in a couple of volleys (they wont be able to volley the attack frigs either unless the have no dc) is way different to being OP doom of frigs.
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Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility Kraken.
70
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Posted - 2012.09.29 20:18:00 -
[317] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Major Killz wrote: However, it seems like the Gallente destroyer might be the winner here, but I could be wrong v0v
You are wrong, the new gallente destroyer is garbage, it does what the catalyst does but much worse and will have a much harder time applying drone damage than the Tristan. Both of the Tristan and Catalyst will destroy this new one without fail.
Omnathious Deninard you're cute...
Also the Harpy has no tracking bonus and it's tracking can be abused if caught even with dual stasis webifiers. Although, this new destroyer will be doing alot more damage than a Harpy will in that situation, because of it's drones. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
163
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Posted - 2012.09.29 20:20:00 -
[318] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Major Killz wrote: However, it seems like the Gallente destroyer might be the winner here, but I could be wrong v0v
You are wrong, the new gallente destroyer is garbage, it does what the catalyst does but much worse and will have a much harder time applying drone damage than the Tristan. Both of the Tristan and Catalyst will destroy this new one without fail. Omnathious Deninard you're cute... Also the Harpy has no tracking bonus and it's tracking can be abused if caught even with dual stasis webifiers. Although, this new destroyer will be doing alot more damage than a Harpy will in that situation, because of it's drones. The Tristan gets a +10% per level DRONE tracking bonus, it let's light drones rip through frigates. Ideas for Dorne Improvement https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1658683#post1658683 Updated 9/21/12 |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility Kraken.
70
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Posted - 2012.09.29 20:25:00 -
[319] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Yuri Intaki wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:If we compare the Caldari destroyer to today's AML Caracal, we will see that it gets 40% more DPS and 80% more volley damage on top of significantly better damage application. You do udnerstand that AML caracal has a hard time breaking some of the top t1 frigates these days and if it's boosted by warfare links, it cannot break them even with max missile skills. I don't think you properly understand what's going on here. The Caldari destroyer will have the alpha of a 280mm Arty Thrasher. It will literally volley completely through a quad ASB Merlin's shields every single volley. It will literally volley any attack frigate, every single volley. -Liang
This isn't completely incorrect. I could and have 2 - 3 volley a medium-ASB merlin in a Navy Issue Caracal solo. He and his friends blew up thier signature with micro warp drives. Which probably helped. The damage with this new Caldari destroyer will be similar, but we'll see how the fittings pan out though.
What's more concerning is groups of these Minmatar and Caldari destroyers... |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
85
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Posted - 2012.09.29 20:31:00 -
[320] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Recoil IV wrote:name for the caldari destroyer : Goliath I like your style!
moar dragon names please:
There is already the drake and the wyvern, as well as the worm, the chimaera, leviathan, and naga, but we could have the amphitere, ouroboros, hydra, amphisbaena, gargoyle, serpent, bakunawa, yilbegan, zmaj, cuelebre, vritra, ryu, scultone, dragua, zilant, ejderha, orochi, and the python as well, and likely more. |
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Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
251
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Posted - 2012.09.29 21:10:00 -
[321] - Quote
Once Duality is up again we'll be able to test all these out and find out for certain what's what. I'm just glad that I can fly any of them.
P.S. The Minmatar destroyer is hideous looking. It's got a pillbox sitting on top of a brick that has a snowplow stuck to the front. Come on CCP! Based on the sweetness of your redesigns of the Stabber and Tempest I know you can do better than this! That thing is so ugly I don't care how it performs, I'll probably just fly the Caldari U-boat or, stick to the Thrasher. What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
478
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Posted - 2012.09.29 21:14:00 -
[322] - Quote
My naming suggestion for the Amarr destroyer: Affliction.
I like this because it seems fitting for a ship that's going to be a real pain in the arse with its neuts. |
Alara IonStorm
3204
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Posted - 2012.09.29 21:16:00 -
[323] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote: P.S. The Minmatar destroyer is hideous looking. It's got a pillbox sitting on top of a brick that has a snowplow stuck to the front. Come on CCP! Based on the sweetness of your redesigns of the Stabber and Tempest I know you can do better than this! That thing is so ugly I don't care how it performs, I'll probably just fly the Caldari U-boat or, stick to the Thrasher.
More Murder Plow for me. You fly the Thrasher, I will be chillaxing in my luxury Pillbox throwing this Brick at people.
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Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2012.09.29 21:43:00 -
[324] - Quote
Destroyers are supposed to be dedicated to straight-up combat.
With that in mind, bonuses to electronic warfare should be out of the question, especially at the Tech 1 level. We already have a laser pew-machine, so the only option left for the new Amarr destroyer is a tank-mobile, I don't get why some (or all) of you disagreed with me on this :S |
Nissui
Millennial Dawn
7
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Posted - 2012.09.29 21:53:00 -
[325] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:My naming suggestion for the Amarr destroyer: Affliction. If they do this, I am totally naming mine Ed Hardy. |
Alara IonStorm
3204
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Posted - 2012.09.29 21:55:00 -
[326] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Destroyers are supposed to be dedicated to straight-up combat.
I don't get why some (or all) of you disagreed with me on this :S Because that is like saying Cruisers are supposed to be dedicated to straight up combat if only the Thorax, Maller, Moa and Rupture existed. It is like saying Battlecruisers are supposed to have a little more firepower and more tank in exchange for slower speed and a larger sig before Tier 3's came along.
Your perception of Destroyers is based upon 1 Line of Hulls in the class when really there is no clear goal for a Destroyer line. They can be flushed one of many ways. Cruisers so far have EWAR, Logistics, Speed and Combat. Frigates have 2 Combat Lines, 1 Speed Line, 1 Logi Line, 1 EWAR Line and 1 Scanning Line.
Not everyone wants an overarching explanation of what Destroyers should be, they and I want variety in more then just the way they preform a role but what that role can be.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2289
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Posted - 2012.09.29 21:57:00 -
[327] - Quote
Doddy wrote: Idk what thrashers you been flying, but they can't even volley a dual rep incursus that is stationary. An incursus or merlin will have repped back up before the next volley anyway. Really being able to kill unbuffered t1 frigs in a couple of volleys (they wont be able to volley the attack frigs either unless the have no dc) is way different to being OP doom of frigs.
The Caldari destroyer will knock a dual rep Incursus from full armor to 100 structure left in one volley. The second volley will kill it, even if you rep all the way back up between volleys. It has eighty percent more volley damage than an AML Caracal and has much, much, much better damage application.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2012.09.29 22:18:00 -
[328] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Destroyers are supposed to be dedicated to straight-up combat.
I don't get why some (or all) of you disagreed with me on this :S Because that is like saying Cruisers are supposed to be dedicated to straight up combat if only the Thorax, Maller, Moa and Rupture existed. It is like saying Battlecruisers are supposed to have a little more firepower and more tank in exchange for slower speed and a larger sig before Tier 3's came along. Your perception of Destroyers is based upon 1 Line of Hulls in the class when really there is no clear goal for a Destroyer line. They can be flushed one of many ways. Cruisers so far have EWAR, Logistics, Speed and Combat. Frigates have 2 Combat Lines, 1 Speed Line, 1 Logi Line, 1 EWAR Line and 1 Scanning Line. Not everyone wants an overarching explanation of what Destroyers should be, they and I want variety in more then just the way they preform a role but what that role can be. Yeah but why are you relating them to cruisers and frigs? If they should be compared to anything, it should be the existing battlecruiser lineup. By your logic we will have logistics destroyers coming along, it makes no sense that way. They're called destroyers for a reason. There are few options and a tanking role makes the most sense. Ewar destroyers? Logi destroyers? **** that, make them tankers. |
Alara IonStorm
3204
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Posted - 2012.09.29 22:30:00 -
[329] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote: Yeah but why are you relating them to cruisers and frigs? If they should be compared to anything, it should be the existing battlecruiser lineup.
Why compare them to anything at all?
Ares Desideratus wrote: By your logic we will have logistics destroyers coming along, it makes no sense that way.
By my logic, my logic should never ever be interpreted by you. I never said they should make X Ship but that they can expand the role any which way they choose. I like the Neut expansion, it is unique.
Ares Desideratus wrote: They're called destroyers for a reason. There are few options and a tanking role makes the most sense. Ewar destroyers? Logi destroyers? **** that, make them tankers.
Funny they don't look like large Torpedo Boats, perhaps definitions of the real thing are not the best way to decide this. Yes I want the new Destroyers to be tankier, perhaps 5% Drone Bonuses and less Guns like 2 and 3 Highs, maybe 5-6 Launchers in exchange for lows. Doesn't mean the EWAR Bonus needs to change.
So the Scorpion is a Battleship, well it is called a Battleship for a reason... |
Ares Desideratus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2012.09.29 22:54:00 -
[330] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: Yeah but why are you relating them to cruisers and frigs? If they should be compared to anything, it should be the existing battlecruiser lineup.
Why compare them to anything at all? You made the first comparison I guess I was first kind of comparing them to the already existing Destroyers, but that comparison really, really goes without saying.
Alara IonStorm wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: By your logic we will have logistics destroyers coming along, it makes no sense that way.
By my logic, my logic should never ever be interpreted by you. I never said they should make X Ship but that they can expand the role any which way they choose. I like the Neut expansion, it is unique. How is it unique? Sentinel / Cruor want a word? It differs from those in ways, but still is really similar, it's also got traits of the Vengeance in it, the thing is, though, it will be uber slow and have no tank, which is not good.
Alara IonStorm wrote:Funny they don't look like large Torpedo Boats, perhaps definitions of the real thing are not the best way to decide this. Yes I want the new Destroyers to be tankier, perhaps 5% Drone Bonuses and less Guns like 2 and 3 Highs, maybe 5-6 Launchers in exchange for lows. Doesn't mean the EWAR Bonus needs to change. So the Scorpion is a Battleship, well it is called a Battleship for a reason... Oh come one, you don't have to relate Destroyers to real life, but basic common sense allows that Destroyers would be built to Destroy things. Wait, this isn't good for my tanking case is it? I guess the way I see it, a Destroyer should be the space-ship equivalent of a top-level striker in the UFC, but giving them bonuses to Energy Neutralizers gives them a role more akin to ground-game submissions and jiu jitsu, which should probably be left for the EAFs, don't you think? Or they could be viewed as under-water creatures; I would see Destroyers as vehicles designed with the formidable strength and power of the great white shark in mind, but again, with these Neutralizer bonuses, they would seem more like some kind of dangerous, elusive squid - again, a role that should probably be left for EAFs. But there's another problem; whichever role they choose for these new Destroyers, don't you think they should be uniform together? If Amarr gets a bonus to neuts, Minmatar gets a bonus to webs? Yeah? No? Ah... the current layout for these new Destroyers is very higgly piggly. You've got an Amarr wanna-be Sentinel, an OP-Drake-esque Caldari, a mediocre mixed-weapons system Gallente, and a Minmatar one that for some reason is a dedicated missile platform with an Interceptor signature radius bonus?
Just what, is going on in the minds of those who created these?
But whatever. My opinion is clearly not appreciated, so I will now leave the thread (though I will still read any replies to this). |
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