No equilibrium with our environment is needed. Simple market pressures will move people around into doing other things that are more profitable as mineral prices come down. Just as those same pressures will move people back to mining as mineral prices go back up.

Their are people who try very hard to use the price of minerals as a reason to justify violence against those of the mining profession. This is simply an excuse as it has always been.

One thing I have noticed is that no one, that I have noticed anyway, says a thing about the low prices of high end minerals which mostly come from Null. Megacyte, Zydrine, and Morphite are laughably low when their prices are viewed over the span of years. Why is nothing said about this 'travesty'? Perhaps it is because of who is profiting. Personally, I find that interesting.

A nerf to high-sec mining is a nerf to null-sec mining. They are using the same overpowered equipment.

My proposals are hollistic and consistent with keeping prices up for everyone. Bot operators and easy-mode ISK earning no-risk players alike do not share my sentiment, however.

We are in disagreement that mining barges are overpowered.

Consider that all minerals do not just come from mining. Minerals also come in the form of rat drops as we both know. Simply ratting in a belt and collecting rat droppings in Null with an alt gives a person a great deal of minerals when refined. While I was in null, there were so many wrecks in the belts that simply taking the time to collect those wrecks netted me an easy 50mil. Collecting those same wrecks would be worth more with todays high prices of lowends. This doesn't even take into account hauler spawns.

Talking about bots though, we are in 100% agreement that they are evil and need to go. This includes the belt ratting bots and any other bot. Bots are a different subject though.

A nerf to high-sec mining is a nerf to null-sec mining. They are using the same overpowered equipment.

My proposals are hollistic and consistent with keeping prices up for everyone. Bot operators and easy-mode ISK earning no-risk players alike do not share my sentiment, however.

Darth, look dude, it's been pointed out with at least 4 scenarios given and explained.

Ganks will NOT change the price of minerals in ANY sustainable way unless ganking was sooo easy that miners wouldn't even bother.

And then we'd be right back at this topic AGAIN when CCP nerfs ganks again.

Trit can go below 2 isk (and has been) and miners will STILL mine. It's their problem and UNLESS you actually mine, so what?

Is that a reference to City of Heroes?

So the argument is back to "we ignore the facts and just ask, 'why's it bother you?'" Because the facts are that what I predict will happen is happening.

So let's discuss why I care:

Eve Online has always been a game I enjoyed. I liked that nothing was sacred, beyond obvious exploits, and that it was a fairly risky place to do business. That meant that the success of the average player was largely dependent on their ability to adapt. Ultrayieldtankmachines aren't really an adaptation, as people have pointed out in the past. Eve has never seen anything like these boats. Ever.

And now they're virtually indestructible in high-sec. Well there you go. That's my problem. You keep talking about what Eve went through and survived. That's well and good. Well, it was never ever like this. And it isn't the right direction.

Resource interdiction needs to be a viable gameplay mechanism and right now, it's not very viable at all.

The market will not reach any equilibrium when there is literally no reistance to be met for mining whatever's most valuable this month. That's a big issue...it makes this game far less interesting.

Cheap ships mean cheap PVP means cheapened thrill.

Miners don't seem to be getting that. This isn't going to magically drive up demand. It will have quite the opposite effect.

They should be.

Right, because originally ganking was a fair and balanced system, rather than an exploited system with no real structure or rules in place. I suppose you might call that repeatedly nerfed, but I'd just call it fixed, (almost).

Besides which, I think you've yet had little opportunity to figure out how this new system addresses both sides of the equation, as opposed to just 'nerfing' a style of gameplay as you are suggesting.

So you're saying a BC should not die to 10 cruisers?
A titan should be able to kill 30 dreads Edit: Along with 20 Neuting Tempests, Solo?

Sir I would direct you both to the threads "When Everybody Wins" and "A "Ganker's" View on Mining "Buffs".

There, I detail the projected ramifications of the buff/nerf dynamic for mining in some detail.

So far I am not demonstrated to be wrong.

I'm sorry your point was something about ganking and its design?

This game was based heavily on UO with the intent of open-world PVP even in "town."

So it always was in the design, by its inclusion in the design parameters.

It is curious that when confronted with the truth of null benefitting equally from the mining buff and the lower mineral prices for "rare minerals" that have resulted that you choose to no longer ply curiosity to this effect, and instead revert to, "No, they are not!"

We agree that mining benefits between both Null and High sec are nearly identical and most things mining can be done in both places. The low prices of high end minerals of course has happened over years and were already depressed well before the recent changes to barges.

Going to put out a scenario here that I would like to see:

One day CCP decides that all minerals should be mined. No minerals from reprocessing rat droppings and no minerals from hauler spawns. Every single mineral in game has to be mined by a miner. How cool would that be. Alliances and corporations will then have the ability to disrupt industrial operations as a valid war tactic. This sounds like a win to me.

Question: Are todays mining barges up to the task of filling the demand that reprocessed rat droppings and hauler spawns previously filled? If not, under this scenario at least, it appears mining barges are not powerful enough.

One thing I have noticed is that no one, that I have noticed anyway, says a thing about the low prices of high end minerals which mostly come from Null. Megacyte, Zydrine, and Morphite are laughably low when their prices are viewed over the span of years. Why is nothing said about this 'travesty'? Perhaps it is because of who is profiting. Personally, I find that interesting.

The post I quoted prior to this, though, hand waves that all away as being from something else.

I'm a little suspicious of your intentions at this point, and question whether or not you are interested in the health of the game or your own ease of profit.

In a sci-fi spaceship game I think it's cool that stuff can be melted down.

I do think that junk PVE drops are stupid, though, and should at least provide something in the way of minerals.

They can be suicide ganked (i answered this question to you gazzilion times).

Well they can be suicide ganked if they fit expensive fit.... as well as l4 mission runers.....as well as freighter pilots with billions in their cargo (also answered gazzilion times).

s'pose MinerMan tanks like you say he should. ganking still gonna be unprofitable.

what then? then he got too many slots?

so i'm guessing this entire "make my gank easy" charade is purely for educational purposes?

unless...

you displaying a new kind of stupid for telling miners to tank in a "i can't gank anymore sob" whiney thread.

What then? Why then miner man has made a choice and sacrificed something for their tank. The miners who choose not to tank get ganked, and the miners who pay attention get an advantage over the other two categories.

Have you not noticed that people involved in ganking have spent a lot of effort explaining (ad nauseaum) specifically how to counter their tactics? Only to be pooh-poohed because those counters either required effort (OH, God, the Horror) or that the miner sacrifice some precious yield or cargo space (Even worse, by Jove).

Battleships used in L4 missions are also tanked by default againist catalyst (all slots empty). Now are you going to whine that "nerf BS HP because they shouldnt be tanked just by default?

I had always thought that gankers were too cowardly to engage in real pvp thus they had to prey upon unarmed ships and these whine threads confirm that. Wahhh. You tough talking wannabe's always told high sec dwellers to l2p or adapt, well take your own advice, adapt. It would be foolish of CCP in terms of credibility to back peddle and reverse the buffs to barges because the psuedo-pvp crowd whines on the forums. These changes brought long overdue balance to these ships. So ganking now is a challenge that I guess you are not up for, there there, it will be ok, wipe away those tears.

These changes brought long overdue balance to these ships.

Update: CCP has once again shat on ganking in order to turn highsec into a risk-free carebear paradise.

Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.

The only thing these changes did was reaffirm that many highsec miners are too stupid to take the precautions that would help mitigate the risk of a gank. Ganking exhumers with destroyers was only profitable because the victims made it profitable.

Thats a fallacy that the forum warriors try hard to keep perpetuating. No matter how hulks were tanked pre-patch they were always easy targets.

Thats a fallacy that the forum warriors try hard to keep perpetuating. No matter how hulks were tanked pre-patch they were always easy targets.

Thats a fallacy that the forum warriors try hard to keep perpetuating. No matter how mining barges were tanked pre-patch they were always easy targets.

Thats a fallacy that the forum warriors try hard to keep perpetuating. No matter how mining barges were tanked pre-patch they were always easy targets.

A proper tank made a Mack impossible to gank profitably in higher sec Ice fields (which are indistinguishable from lower sec ones).

Anything is an easy target when you think about it