Do this, but I have no clue as to how it could be done that wouldn't negate said effort in ship balancing. Soo snap to it, chop chop.

Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.

ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals
.

Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss

pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos.

EVE belongs to the violent

Nerf dumb people

Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.

Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.

Titans should be able to gank in hi sec.

So are you saying that ganking 300m ship with cheap 2m T1 ship in few days old alt was balanced?

They are already rewarded... by not getting shot

low/null/wh is that way

They are already. They are ganked every day.

So are you saying that ganking 300m ship with cheap 2m T1 ship in few days old alt was balanced?

Stupid OP is stupid.

The only way I would agree with this is if Hi-Sec was made completely 100% safe. No ganking, no griefing, no spamming, no scamming - nothing. Let Null & Low-Sec be the Wild West.

Care Bears should be able to mission away to their little hearts are content in completely safety, free from the actions of dicks that just want to f*ck them over.

Yes.

Things are not balanced by cost of the hull.

They should be.

Why in gods name should things be balanced based on the price that a fluid and player driven market gives them?

They should be.

They should be.

They should be.

Given that that ship's owner chose not to fit any sort of tank in order to make that possible, sure it is.
.

They take precautions and are no better off for it than the people who take no precautions.

Where does CCP say "except HS" in the tagline?

Not so much. They used to be, but then CCP decided to put them in swaddling clothes

Even well "tanked" mack was easy prey for catalyst. Please dont tell me that a couple of hundred HP on multi hundred milion ship was "balanced" :D. You just crying for easy prey and cowardly hiding behind "they should tank it better"

wat?

Maybe in the core of the name itself of those regions? You know ....."""HI-SECURITY SPACE""?!

Buffing destroyers DPS, adding Tier 3 BC speaks for something different BTW dont mud the water with clothes and NEX. Its not hisec dwellers fault ok?

Its fine at it is. It was stupid that cheap ship could kill Hulks. If you want balance so much the lets bring everyone on same grounds. Lets make that all BC, BS would pop as soon they even would dare to fit any damage or scram mods(Aka mining upgarade and skaners for miners). Let make it so that ur tengus and other shines would blow up from 3 thrashers or sentrys.
Since we all need to put tank.

T3 ships do explode to destroyers...

Also yes, it was stupid that a single destroyer could kill a hulk. But the stupidity was entirely on the part of the hulk pilot for fitting no tank at all and opening themselves up to this kind of gank.

Show me any kills were t3 got killed with 2 destroyers in high sec. If u put tank before balance you lose all yield bonuses , but all other ships can balance dmg ewar and tank modules and Hulks , macs and other couldn't it was tank or yield. Hulk should be on pair with BC (power grid, cpu , number of slots and so on) . Yes they or not meant for battle , but that doesn't mean they have to be paper thin.

Why in the world should the Hulk be on par with a BC? Cause you don't feel like having to make choices?

There are 3 things that matter to a mining ship. Tank, Yield, and Cargo. If you keep insisting that a mining ship is worthless without max Yield, you'll keep getting ganked.* Everyone else has to make fitting choices between elements that matter to their ship, why shouldn't Miners have to?

*No longer true, since CCP codified in game mechanics the fact that miners are too stupid to protect themselves.

But what about efficiency ? Miners are no different from pvper or pvers everyone has its goals. Be its isk/h or killmails, but everyone should be on even grounds.Before update it was hardly possible .Miners had sacrifice there efficiency for tank while other activities of eve could more or less balance it . Now its fine i can balance yield and tank( Thougth same balancing is still needed among barges ) Now i wish that ccp would do some think about mining that it would be so god damn annoying.

But what about efficiency ? Miners are no different from pvper or pvers everyone has its goals. Be its isk/h or killmails, but everyone should be on even grounds.Before update it was hardly possible .Miners had sacrifice there efficiency for tank while other activities of eve could more or less balance it . Now its fine i can balance yield and tank( Thougth same balancing is still needed among barges ) Now i wish that ccp would do some think about mining that it would be so god damn annoying.

Show me any kills were t3 got killed with 2 destroyers in high sec. If u put tank before balance you lose all yield bonuses , but all other ships can balance dmg ewar and tank modules and Hulks , macs and other couldn't it was tank or yield. Hulk should be on pair with BC (power grid, cpu , number of slots and so on) . Yes they or not meant for battle , but that doesn't mean they have to be paper thin.

My hulk looked something like this and i was ganged several times. And i had only i upgrade and still got my ass kicked.

My hulk looked something like this and i was ganged several times. And i had only i upgrade and still got my ass kicked.

You do realise that with all the hardeners off most tengu have around the same base tank as a hulk right? You catch them outside a staion or on the way to a mission and payday.

As for the hulks:

[Hulk, New Setup 1]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Small Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Survey Scanner II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Mining Drone II x5
Warrior II x5

Pre buff fit. Unprofitable to gank yet it still has MLU and even a rock scanner(T2 no less). Its was just like every other ship, you chose what level of gank or tank you want. Its on par with heavy assault cruisers right out of the box.

I think the reason many people didnt tank thier ship is somewhat linked to cross training for all the required skill reduced thier percived progression. Of course it's stupid to see it that way but even when I started 2 months ago, I was chain training mining and boat skill to get better yields total. The support stuff seemed useless to me back then because I wanted to mine and not fight. All that shield, armor and resistance were not linked to what I wanted to do so to hell with that right. It's a bad way of doing it but I am pretty sure many people saw it like that when they make mining thier carrer. I guess gettign ganked is supposed to be learning the hard way. Too bad some people get nothign out of this "class".

Let make it so that ur tengus and other shines would blow up from 3 thrashers or sentrys.
Since we all need to put tank.

Yes please buff ganking...cause I dont like shooting at ships that can shoot back. I also hate my life and need to make someone somewhere rage after I killed is ship when he least expected it.

There are plenty of reasons to gank miners that don't involve hating your life or a "need to make someone somewhere rage."

As for playing games, I bet when you play Uno you always unload your Draw Fours. Even if your opponent has a handful of cards already. Even if they just got skipped. Even if your opponent cries about it, you aren't getting caught with those Draw Fours in-hand. You're going to play them, grief your opponent who couldn't play because you skipped them, and win the game.

Eve is a game, too. If people cry over a game, that's too bad.

When you undock in Eve you can be shot.

Cold.

Harsh.

Universe.

HTFU much?

As for UNO, never played that game.

No doubt. The same can be said for hauler pilots and salvagers. Unfortunatly many people dont seem to be able to learn lessons when they get blown up. I spent 8 months giving out fittings and tactics to miners and they still died by the hundreds. When CCP went into testing the barge upgrades it wasn't the miners helping them with feedback it was people like me. The very people killing them sat down with CCP and tried to give them options including a gankproof ship in the form of the skiff. Unfortunatly CCP buffed the tank on the mack which means the skiff is now pointless.

Oh you should.

Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.

I dont need Eve to HTFU. I do that in real life.

As for UNO, never played that game.

Things are not balanced by cost

I would sign on to your suggestions 100% under one condition: any ganking attempt, successful or otherwise, results in an immediate -10 security AND faction standing hit, and ganker is immediately ejected in his pod to null somewhere randomly, and is unable to enter any space above .4 in any way, shape or form.

That you choose to bring your real-life essence into this argument is proof-positive that you don't have much of an argument to make. You're hard in real life so you feel comfortable whining about possibly getting ganked in a game. I can certainly respect that.

Are there any games you play besides Eve that I might use as a better metaphor for what it means to play a game, even one as rich as Eve?

Perhaps you play Sorry! and expect your opponents to never send your piece back to "start?" Maybe you play poker and expect your opponent to not bluff just because you've got a decent hand? I really wouldn't know. But I think you get the idea.

Being HTFU'd in RL is great. This is a game. HTFU'ing in a game should be, really, a whole lot easier than being HTFU'd in the real world. That's my two cents on this...

Are you saying that ganker should be able to profitable gank my ship if I tank my ship properly (this means I use money and cost goes up)?

The problem I think is many people play game to chill out after a work day. HTFU is not something they want out of a game. EvE is not the right game for them at least now since HTFU is pretty much the norm here.

The problem I think is many people play game to chill out after a work day. HTFU is not something they want out of a game. EvE is not the right game for them at least now since HTFU is pretty much the norm here.

Cold.

Harsh.

Universe.

Oh, but wait! I wrote another thread about that topic.

This is what finally high sec is becoming to gankers. A real cold harsh universe instead of a brainless-no-consequence activity

Your last sentence is really well said, though I'm not sure it's a problem, per-se.

Relaxing while playing Eve seems a lot to me like trying to take a cat nap while playing Gran Turismo 5. Sure, you can set the computer up to run your races for you, but then you're not playing a game, you're watching the result of a computer playing a game.

CCP clearly says they want players attentive and at their keyboards. The mining buff seems to send the opposite message. The only way I can see for CCP to remain consistent in this message is to buff ganking (at least somewhat) to re-introduce the concept of risk to miners.

A bonus effect would be an improvement in ore and mineral prices for those miners who continue to mine successfully after such a ganking buff.

We could only know if it's a problem if we ahd the stats on how many people try EvE and quit insetad of continuing playing the game. If most people quit, then something in the game reduce the growth and at some point, thats less money for CCP. The current player can be happy but it does not mean thast teh final target of CCP.

As for mining, they could always amke roinds contain at most 1 cycle of ore. You would need to be at the keyboard to target new roids all the time. They could also lets say require scanning small but numerous belts with the default ship scanner (using probe would require an additionnal high slot and probing skill which would be a major hassle for beginner) containing just a few rocks then you have to move again. This force the player to be at the keyboard. Anyone who would want to mine AFK would first need to scan a grav site to have sufficient rocks to semi-afk. A change to ice would be required too but nothing is impossible. You don't really need to put miners in danger of being ganked to make them at the keyboard.

Ganking is just not automatically the solution to everything. Hulkageddon didn't make people fit ship with a ebtter tank even if some people were ganking with losses because GSF was feeding them isk for every 10 kills or something. They were making thier money back on the quantity but barge/exhumer were killed in droves and yet people were not tanking all that much more by the end just before the barge changes.

Unless you blow someone up faster than he can mine himself, killing his ship only really slow him down.

No, we get it. Your panties are in a bunch because it's not as easy as it was before to destroy unarmed ships. We get it. You're 'leet. Almost as 'leet as the idiot that bumps ships in belts in the Citadel. Now HE is elite.

Grow a pair.

Except that it requires brains and has consequences.

You just don't like the consequences is all, so you dismiss them. Let's take a look:

1. Ship + Module Loss w/o Insurance Payout (we get it for any other activity)
2. GCC = 15 minute CONCORD-enforced time-out
3. Standings Loss if the pilot was NPC corp
4. Security Status Loss

Now let's look at the consequences of everybody mining in a Mackinaw risk-free:

1. Ice and ore prices continue to fall

OK next argument?

its that CCP have made it impossible to to turn a profit.

You don't have to deal with:

Neutrals passing by there and joining the party finishing for you in a fresh pod and not a single kill except yours.
50 men or whatever number hot drop
Not being able to dock in entire regions
Reds in local expecting you to show up and blow yer face (yep Concord protects you very well against those)

And I'll stop here, there are so many more but these are enough to show how little consequence high sec ganking has.

Except that it requires brains and has consequences.

You just don't like the consequences is all, so you dismiss them. Let's take a look:

1. Ship + Module Loss w/o Insurance Payout (we get it for any other activity)
2. GCC = 15 minute CONCORD-enforced time-out
3. Standings Loss if the pilot was NPC corp
4. Security Status Loss

Now let's look at the consequences of everybody mining in a Mackinaw risk-free:

1. Ice and ore prices continue to fall

OK next argument?

[edit: it came already!]



Oh really? How leet must one be to sit in a 35k EHP mining ship and AFK mine all day without risk of player-induced death (or any other death for that matter)?

Because I think that must require a SERIOUS pair.

[/edit]

Care Bears should be able to mission away to their little hearts are content in completely safety, free from the actions of dicks that just want to f*ck them over.

1. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose (where have I heard that before)
2. Minor and temporary
3. see 2
4. see 3

Just requires you know, effort.


Can't beat that argument. The charitable work for the betterment of the miner by people who are not miners is heartening and makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Pfft.. Said it before and I'll say it again.

1) If you're a miner, HTFU, tank/dont tank'whatever. Deal with it.
2) If you're a ganker. Stop BS about balance/economics whatever to justify it. Just kill it.

But consider these points:-

If killing a MINING DRILL (that's what it is) was meant to be PROFITABLE then GAME BALANCE was wrong to begin with. (Perhaps CCP saw the absurdity in that single point and it all has nothing to being "fair".)

Economic POV. Ganking a mining vessel should ONLY BE PROFITABLE if you are a buyer/seller of ore. The vessel itself should always be no more than a busted tool after a gank.

Irony POV. When MinerMan told to fit tank he (used to?) put faction stuff on because it was only proper way to do it, and it was the TANK that made him profitable.

HTFU POV. The ganker was given a class of vessel that mounts large and costs nothing. What more they need? Get a group of friends together, you know, Eve is a GROUP game, and make the kill.

COMMONSENSE POV. If it DOESN'T make a profit - duh, do something else.


Isn't that what EVERYONE ELSE is told 'round here or does it ONLY apply to highseccers/carebears and noobs?

CCP already stated ganking was never intended to be profitable. However, high sec freighters ganking shows it is and this is players fault.

So can you please say again ganking is not profitable?

Everyone else in Eve besides miners has a legitimate risk intervening between them and profit.

The recent buff removed the risk to mining.

The consequences are already visible in the market.

Everyone else has risk. What does a miner risk now, after the buff?

Maybe he risks flying the wrong ship?

Since when has risk been removed? Don't confuse profitability of ganking with the ability to gank. Two very different aspects.

Clearly you don't get it. Its not that CCP has made it harder, its that CCP have made it impossible to to turn a profit. They have also rendered the Skiff pointless because the Mack is unprofitable to gank with nothing fitted which means the Mack is the king of miners. The whole point of the barge buff was to end the one barge rules them all situation.

Given that that ship's owner chose not to fit any sort of tank in order to make that possible, sure it is.


No they're not. People who take no precautions are safe and people who take precautions are not safer.

They take precautions and are no better off for it than the people who take no precautions.



Where does CCP say "except HS" in the tagline?



Not so much. They used to be, but then CCP decided to put them in swaddling clothes.

It's not supposed to be profitable at the base level. If a player chooses to fill their cargohold full of yummy-yums, that's their fault & CCP shouldn't cater to such stupidity.

Cold.

Harsh.

Universe.

HTFU much?

Why dont you try metaphoring with this.

Also, my 10 year old trolls better then you.

Everyone else in Eve besides miners has a legitimate risk intervening between them and profit.

The recent buff removed the risk to mining.

The consequences are already visible in the market.

Everyone else has risk. What does a miner risk now, after the buff?

Maybe he risks flying the wrong ship?

MinerMan is ALWAYS at risk. YOU CAN still gank him. YOU have decided that YOUR risk is no longer viable. MinerMan simply saw the cross being carried by someone else instead of them.

I will concede that forum whining on ganking might have tipped the scales on this topic. If that's so, maybe we're all missing ONE KEY POINT.

CCP had the numbers. Numbers may have said fix this.

Now ask yourself, how many lost subs CCP have to wear if all the gankers ragequit? Care to guess?

Maybe we need to be asking whether there is any correlation between rising subs and rising logins SINCE the "fix". I dunno.

Like I said, CCP have the numbers.

Look, MINERMAN could have MINED in safety pre-buff by MINING aligned or with a tank or in low or in null or with friends.

...are probably going to have a continued deflationary effect on the prices for low-end materials and ice products available in high-sec.

Not going to go down this road.

For point friend, when you tell MinerMan that, you cut into HIS profits and he had to swallow the bad-pill while you had a risk-free, PROFITABLE venture.

I can understand your angst, but really, we're just seeing exact same from the OTHER SIDE of the coin.


Darth

The prices have been MUCH LESS than (half of current) many times and for very prolonged periods. Eve still Eve.

You really want to keep prices up - maybe you need to increase DEMAND which is what RL economists suggest you do to increase prices (when you don't have the monopoly).

So go blow stuff up.

Highsec should be for those not interested in PvP.

No, it really shouldn't, unless you mean that highsec should be removed from the game.

If said ship is carrying stuff worth more than you can tank then yes.

Let's say I use two A-Type EANMs to tank my Damnation. Of course I will have full HG Slave set plugged in but you probably guessed that already.

a-type EANMs cost 500x as much as T2 EANMs and they're great at making you a worthwhile gank target

a-type EANMs cost 500x as much as T2 EANMs and they're great at making you a worthwhile gank target

Do you mean this 700k EHP ship?

[Damnation, loot pi+¦ata]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Energized Thermic Membrane II

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Slave Alpha
Slave Beta
Slave Gamma
Slave Delta
Slave Epsilon
Slave Omega

a-type EANMs cost 500x as much as T2 EANMs and they're great at making you a worthwhile gank target

How much ISK value do you cram in the cargo hold? 700k is what? 4 charon worth of EHP or something like that. If you cram enough value in it, there probably is a way to make it worthwhile.

Stupid OP is stupid.

The only way I would agree with this is if Hi-Sec was made completely 100% safe. No ganking, no griefing, no spamming, no scamming - nothing. Let Null & Low-Sec be the Wild West.

Care Bears should be able to mission away to their little hearts are content in completely safety, free from the actions of dicks that just want to f*ck them over.

And let us not forget that carebears vastly outnumber gankers. It was once a career! Not its just a hobby...

I suggest a bigg increase in destroyer DPS, and a new range of battlecruisers than can fit 8 bonused large guns. That ought to do it.

Maybe increase the alpha of artillery, and decrease the fitting requirements of hybrids, just to make sure.

Totally not empty quoting. This guy is right.

We are outnumbered. The more reason to buff ganking. We are endangered...

Nothing more than cry for easy targets, Lol, do you know that you can still gank? But instead of cheap catalyst you need to fit more expensive (but still relative cheap) Talos or Tornado. And crimewatch? You comit a crime, you will be hunted. No more risk-free ganking. Bounty office will finaly have a purpose. Not as nowadays as ego advertising service.

You contradicted yourself in your first two sentences lol.

>>'If they choose not to fit a tank then they made it possible to gank them'
>>'if they take precautions they are no safer than one who doesn't take precautions'
Ipso facto why fit a tank?
Paraphrasing of course, but it's all there.

Not going to go down this road.

For point friend, when you tell MinerMan that, you cut into HIS profits and he had to swallow the bad-pill while you had a risk-free, PROFITABLE venture.

I can understand your angst, but really, we're just seeing exact same from the OTHER SIDE of the coin.

You're making my point for me.

Two different time periods. Before the mining ship buff, the only way a Hulk could be profitably ganked was if it did not fit a proper tank. I.E. The people who took precautions (and paid for them in yield/cargo or effort) didn't get ganked. Fitting a proper tank served a purpose (you didn't get ganked).


Now that the mining ship buff has hit, the Mackinaw can't be profitably ganked regardless of its use of its lowslots. I.E. Nobody gets ganked, so the people who would take precautions don't derive any benefit over those who would not. So, why fit a proper tank?

You want your easy kills back and hide it under the guise of making profit. CCP gave the gankers a very nice run with a ship line customized for ganking: the Tier 3 Battlecruisers. Many of you "profited" during this period before the hammer came down because someone figured out an exploit to get max kills in a short period of time. Congrats to that person. Now you're back to having to work for the kills, but you complain. No Easy Button. So some few have figured out that if you get large gangs together, do some REAL intelligence work, and hit freighters, you can make a profit. Serious props there for doing something REAL. But that's too much work for those that choose to "profit" on easy kills in mining belts.

It's not about profit, so give me a break. It's about easy kills for a variety of reasons I leave you to think about. You want profit, but insist on easy kills? Go wardec some mining corps. Or join James666 or whatever in his 'leet mindset of bumping miners to brag about making money from them.

Edit: used "ban" up there when no ban happened (that I know of)

What changed are the options available to gankers due to the built-in tank of the new Exhumers.

There aren't any efficient options

The Mack needs a nerf to its tank.

Build-in tank? What advantage do they have againist any other ships out there? They have similiar basic HP as any other T1 cruiser/Tier3 BC and T2 versions have same resist bonuses as any other selected T2 ganking ship.

Yes they are. There are still dumb miners out there who fits expensive modules and no tank. One cheap fitted Talos will make shreds from them. Problem with pre-patch was that even ordinary T2 fitted barge was profitable for low cost catalyst ganker. So do your homework and fit one ship scaner and search for your piniata.

No more "random target" on icebelt and profit. Now its "search for your target" and profit.

The mack needs yeld nerf (or buff to hulk yeld), not the tank nerf.

Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.

you had the ultimate gank machine in the form of the tornado last winter so either stop whinning or learn how to put in some effort for your kills

The mack needs yeld nerf (or buff to hulk yeld), not the tank nerf.

Hahah, no.

A Mackinaw has at least 1k more base EHP than any HAC.
A Mackinaw has something like 5k more base EHP than any Recon.
A Mackinaw has about 1k more base EHP than any HIC.
A Mackinaw has about 4k more base EHP than any Logi.

That's not similar.

Nope. A Hulk tanked with simple T2/Meta mods could not be profitably ganked pre-buff.

What significant risk do miners who don't take any significant precautions against suicide ganks currently run?

How will that make the Skiff worthwhile?

Wrong..... Also what about pre-patch macks?

skiff lack its purpose. It should be ninja miner. Ability to fit covops cloak would do that. (at te expense of yeld of course). But this is just my opinion.

Its job is the tanky ship, a job taken by the Mack

Mack is not tanky ship. It has standard HP as any other ship in his class in this game now. ( I know, i know... you miss cheap catalyst killmails).

Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things.

Lol , yeah takes a LONG time to train an alt for tornado/talos for sure.Instead of ganking retrievers they're ganking freighters now ... yup ganking need s abuff

No, it really shouldn't, unless you mean that highsec should be removed from the game.

It has the most base EHP of any T2 Cruiser (besides the Skiff). That's not "Standard," that's "Best in Class."

It can fit a bigger tank (with 2 MLUs) than many T2 Cruiser's standard Fittings. That's also not "Standard."

with 2 MLUs be fit to be absolutely unprofitable to gank

Yeah or that.

But i imagine you'd simply kill off all the players not interested in PvP. Which so happens to be the majority.

Would be alot of fun though!

And i also mentioned that mack cannot fit large extenders (43 vs 1000-15000 PG) So it is logical that it has most base EHP. Also comparing 13k vs 14k EHP is not very wise



Try to play with EFT more before you post something stupid like this.

So as those shiny pirate ships with ordinary T2 fit, of freighters with sub 1B goods in their cargohold. Again, stop crying about easy targets and try to pick up targets with expensive fit, not just random miner.

And above all try to read my posts, because all i wrote here, i already mentioned in posts before.

Those ships give up something for that safety. What does the Mackinaw give up for that safety compared to the Skiff (the one designed to be safe without active measures)?

If miners want to be safe without active measures, why shouldn't they have to use the Skiff (the mining ship designed to tank)?

Because CCP clearly meant the skiff to be the 'non-highsec" tanky exhumer. If you're going to talk about what they were "designed" to do, then talk about their designs in the way in which those designs were...designed.

You're confusing the issue. The skiff is basically useless. This isn't because the mack is too tanky. This is because high-sec mining as a whole needs to be nerfed, comparative to lowsec/nullsec mining. Simply claiming that the skiff's role has been stolen by the mack being ' too tanky' is a bizarre misinterpretation of what CCP intended, that you're apparently trying to make become true simply by repeating it 50,000 times. It's not working.

The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank

You obviously weren't here for all the screaming about the new BCs and the destroyer buffs.

SP != Skill

What significant risk are HS miners exposed to now?

You mean the screaming that conveniently ignored the fact that Crucible made ganking more expensive?

OW yeah takes loads of skills to suicide gank your right ... i'd grade it a tad above mining. And as to the risk that high sec miners have or people in high sec in general ... in my view the carebears mostly are the gankers not the miners/pve types.

Scared to go into low-sec or null ?

Can't have actuall losses when pvp+¡ng noooo , no losses and no risks should be had.Think you should get labeled the ''grand admiral carebear''

Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.

So what significant risk do miners take when mining*? You didn't actually answer the question.
.

*FYI, without profitable ganking, there is no industrial scale ganking, and therefor no significant risk from ganking.

Mack is not tanky ship. It has standard HP as any other ship in his class in this game now. ( I know, i know... you miss cheap catalyst killmails).

So what significant risk do miners take when mining*? You didn't actually answer the question.

*FYI, without profitable ganking, there is no industrial scale ganking, and therefor no significant risk from ganking.



That is, in fact, what the miners cried about. Losing their ship in PvP.

Loosing their PVE ship in PVP yes i can see why they would moan and btw they are running as much risk as before as they still ARE gankable but boohooo that takes effort and isk.

Its not a question of a bit more risk, its that its impossible to make any profit.

You serious?You actually seriously moaning about ganking not being profitable?What has eve come to , used to be days you lost 3 months worth in one go with pvp and smiled about it.Ganks where about ******* others day and you didn't care what it costed.

You can tell eve is dead when even ''bad boys'' complain about risk and iskloss.


You're goonfriends are ganking freighters and looking at the drops it is profitable right?


Yaawwwn

Its not a question of a bit more risk, its that its impossible to make any profit.

Bring back the profitable as long as you also bring in a direct way of teaching miners how to fit prepare for such things. The EvE board is not the good palce to teach this. It should be in the game. Then the player can ignore the info but everybody gets warned about the risk. I am pretty sure many people learn of the risk associated with mining by seeing the ship go boom. Of course right now it happens less but it was still like that before the barge patch. I am all for risk of ganking for miners. It's allright. But please make all the required info available in game to protech from such intended risk.

For example change the basic mining training to give a missing where the miner will get blow-up no matter what and then a second one where the agent give him one of the basic skill book to train and tell him to put "tank module X" so when he do the same action, his ship live through the rat dps till concord or whatever kill the rat. It's super basic but after that, people ahve no reason to not know **** can happen and mining is no safe heaven.

The idiots will still run tankless. Those will be your gank target and they will ahve no excuse beside thier own stupidity. The one who did learn will be the tanked miner. Not profitable to gank because of their fit.

If CCP was to put in a change like that, I would gladly support it. If they only change the ship EHP, they only change one problem (unprofitable to gank miner even with terribad fit) into (clueless miner who does not even know what's waiting for him).

You cant force people to tank their ships, I spent 8 months trying.

The tutorial tells you to tank your ships, the rats force you to tank your ship early on, the forums are awash with help, the help channels and corp channels are there, local is there for asking other miners, the guy exploding near you is a biut of a giveaway, you exploding is a massive hint. Mission bears spend the time to look up fits on battleclinic and asking questions so it cant be all that hard for miners to adapt. Its just that they chose not to and go out of their way to ignore any help given.

Thats not to say all miners are as useless. A great number did adapt and they took advantage of higher prices and mining bots getting all but wiped out. Hell there are some miners who enjoyed the challange and had fun mining.

As for those freighters we are now killing, Yes, its all done for profit. Miners were never any different.

Yes but difference between ganking freighters and ganking miners was that You have to pick your target (in freighter case). You have to scan them and gank only fools with multi billion cargo.

But miners case..... you could choose random miner and gank him.... he was profitable in every scenario.

So whad does this new patch brings? Just balance. Ganking miners are still profitable. You just have to search and scan for good one (miners wit Aoede MLU for example).

stuff.

Yes but difference between ganking freighters and ganking miners was that You have to pick your target (in freighter case). You have to scan them and gank only fools with multi billion cargo.

But in miners case..... you could choose random miner and gank him.... he was profitable in every scenario.

So whad does this new patch brings? Just balance. Ganking miners are still profitable. You just have to search and scan for good one (miners wit Aoede MLU for example).

Hence why they are the new king of mining and why ice prices have nose dived.

So you Goons don't like cheap Catalysts and cheap jump/POS fuel...

A bit weird when we all know you guys own most POSes in nullsec and have biggest capital/super fleets.

Cheap stuff means less profit.

You guys also own most of the Tech moons. Force barge/exhumer prices up and you get your profits.

Ganking doesn't need a buff (may change depending on what goes through with the crimewatch bit).


However, the Mack could use a small hp nerf. Needs to be right near the Hulk. That way the Skiff would be the only one that would be very unprofitable to gank (as it is the Mack has enough tank to survive any profit based gank, unless it is stupid fit).

Maybe a small hold nerf for the Skiff, would have to test it a bit first with that in mind.

Ok, show me where CCP said that the Skiff
wasn't designed to be used as a tanky ship to survive Suicide Ganks in HS?

The Skiff is useless in its intended role because the Mack is tanky enough to be unprofitable to gank. In LS and Null, a pointed mining ship is a dead mining ship, so their ability to tank is irrelevant, so the Skiff is useless again.


http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73098

Maybe you didn't notice what happened to barge and exhumer prices after the patch?

Cheap POS/jump fuel forces Tech prices down?

In what book they said you have to sell your product for cheaper when your expenses go down?
Especially when you are holding most of this "natural resource".

Cheap POS/jump fuel forces Tech prices down?

In what book they said you have to sell your product for cheaper when your expenses go down?
Especially when you are holding most of this "natural resource".

value = demand / supply

Whichever lunkheaded dev offhandedly said "ganking isn't supposed to be profitable" needs to be kept away their keyboard. And oh man did this honeypot thread work.

yeah because fuel prices are relevant in the price of tech

hint: they're not

You need POSes to get Tech, right?

OMG, Goons don't even know how to run a business properly...

A correctly tanked exhumer was not profitable to gank. Well maybe during the lase hulkageddon when GSF was providing prizes for every 10 kills...

A correctly tanked exhumer before the patch only needed 1 extra 5m isk ship for a gank instead of 1 or 2.
Salvaging and modules dropping still made if profitable even without the goons offering ISK for kills.

if the price of tech was based solely on the cost of running a tower then it'd cost 5000 isk/unit

well, it doesn't

Well, do it.

After that you guys can offer 50M or 100M for every exhumer kill so gankers get their job back.

Problem solved!

yes let's sell tech at cost because that's how you do business, selling things at cost

...more waffle about TANKING to prevent the GANKING...

No, a well tanked barge was not profitable to kill.

Why are you defending something that hurts everyone?

Cheap stuff means less profit.

s'pose MinerMan tanks like you say he should. ganking still gonna be unprofitable.

what then? then he got too many slots?

so i'm guessing this entire "make my gank easy" charade is purely for educational purposes?

unless...

you displaying a new kind of stupid for telling miners to tank in a "i can't gank anymore sob" whiney thread.

You still dont see the problem. Exhumers were expensive paperboats... so "paper" that they were shot just for fun outside the stations, near the gates and in the fields, because gank was extremely cheap. You cannot gank nightmare or freighter in catalyst just for LOL because they have high base HP (unfitted) Exhumers had only hundreds of base HP. Now with standard HP (as any other ship in their class) they are still gankable and profitable, you just need to scan them and search for expensive fits. This was not about "they should tank it" problem. Problem was their base HP.

Oh, gankers have been trying to drive Hulks out of hi-sec by killing them in numbers for how long? The chorus has been loud "tanking your exhumer will deter ganking". Well congratulate yourselves gankers, you won - hulks are an endangered species in hi-sec and miners are flying tanked. Mission Accomplished.

Hulks were safe from 99% of ganks if the fitted a good tank and when I say good, I mean a tank that made them unprofitable to kill. These are the same daft pilots who put billions in untanked haulers and fit 40+ billion onto a lvl 4 mission boat. The problem with barges was never with their HP. It was the fact that only two of them were ever used and they suffered from fitting issues (not the hulk or skiff).

Welcome to the reality of ganking and that little world of ganking you thought existed doesn't and never has.

Remember the ice interdictions? It was done for profit.

Every Hulkageddon? Done for the prizes, aka profit.

You honestly never noticed the fact that 99% of barges killed were very poorly tanked or wondered why it was always destroyers doing the killing? We dont give a damn about killmails and tears are simply a bonus.

As for those freighters we are now killing, Yes, its all done for profit. Miners were never any different. Afterall, who do you think benefitted from higher ice and mineral prices? You honestly think we want to see our profits from minerals, ice and all the products that use this stuff go down?

They were not killed for just fun they were killed because we were maining bilions in profit from mass ganking the stupids out there who fitted a very poor tank. Seriously how many times do you people need this explained to you?

Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.

Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.

There is KM (it can be found somewhere in killboards) where some guy suicided my retriever just for fun. So you can speak only for you and your friends and only for kills you have seen.

People killed miners just for fun. It really happens.

But that doesnt mean that we will let mining suffer another decline or allow fleets of mining bots to once again take over.

You should try reporting them like everyone else.

Far more effective to blow them up, pod them and then report them.

You don't report bots. You want to keep them in the game for easy isk farming.

Far more effective to blow them up, pod them and then report them.

so it's your choice to kill, pod, whatever. It is not needed but "far more effective".

And you want it to be profitable too?

He want the stupid miner who does not tank his exhuer to be profitable. Not the one who used his braincell to tank it. Well it would make sense that way. If even the tanked one is profitable to gank, then **** this ****...

Last thing I want is for barges to be profitable to kill no matter what you do.

Miner tanks his ship -> "Don't fit tank mods. It's not a combat ship!"