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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Mirima Thurander
The 8th Tribe Seraphim Dragoons.
401
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 13:20:00 -
[1201] - Quote
They use so many words to say so little.
Its sad your so afraid of this u spend all day stalking this thread.
And all I'm required to do is bump it and allow people that understand post.
Truly appreciate your help with the intended purpose, you are showing the rest of eve just how entitled you are to your null sec. A Dark time comes. A time of terror comes. My time. If it offends you. Stop me. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1292
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 13:35:00 -
[1202] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:They use so many words to say so little.
Its sad your so afraid of this u spend all day stalking this thread.
And all I'm required to do is bump it and allow people that understand post.
Truly appreciate your help with the intended purpose, you are showing the rest of eve just how entitled you are to your null sec. And you're one of those people I mentioned in my previous post. |
Serptimis
Reds in Local
47
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 14:02:00 -
[1203] - Quote
Remove local. And while you're at it, remove Warp to 0. this will also help to promote the type of 'PVP' looked for here |
Raptors Mole
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
30
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Posted - 2012.11.18 14:07:00 -
[1204] - Quote
Sorry for posting like this but the quoting the quote thing hurts my eyes;
1. Zim GÇô GÇ£Yep, they would, by moving the last few isk-making alts from nullsec to hisec, lowsec or WHs insteadGÇ¥.
I honestly donGÇÖt think they would. Hi Sec income is a lot lower than Null, Low Sec carries a lot of risk, WH GÇô well more folks in WH space is a good thing.
2. Zim GÇô GÇ£The sov system isn't determined by player activity in a system in any way, shape or formGÇ¥.
True, but my thoughts are holding it GÇô and doing something with it are different things. You may hold Sov, but no local may encourage folks to come and run anoms, sites and effectively live under the radar. One there the penny may drop and they may well join your alliance. Local IMHO gives the Sov holders too much of a home advantage.
3. Zim GÇô GÇ£Given that you're in favor of killing bots, then you should be against things like crimewatch 2.0 and maybe even the mining barge changes (honestly it's hard to tell these days, since people don't have to spend much energy to mine with the mack)GÇ¥
I am actually in favour of the recent buff to mining vessels. It was way too easy for some 733T 9v9 chump to land on grid and pop a 150mil ship with a cheap fit dessie. Unfair to say the least.
4. Zim GÇô GÇ£What would make the game better for the majority would be what would draw more people out into nullsec. Removing local would benefit one group of players and one group only: gankers who are terrible at this game. They'd just switch into cloaked ships and gank a few ships until people wisened up and moved their isk-making alts to hisec, lowsec or wormholes, at which point we'd be in a worse position than we are in nowGÇ¥.
I agree with the first bit GÇô but how? The good bits are owned and it is currently too difficult to dislodge an establish power. ItGÇÖs not that hard to pop gankers GÇô especially bad ones, and it is great fun GÇô my bait Drake is called GÇ£Taib ToidiGÇ¥ - Idiot Bait backwards, and it works more often than not. It would also give the little people in the alliance something positive to do GÇô ie Actively scouting, plexing, hunting, defending GÇô yGÇÖknow GÇô fun small gang stuff. Perhaps I have my rose tinted spectacle set too high there.
4a. Zim - GÇ£What would make the game better for the majority would be what would draw more people out into nullsecGÇ¥.
Absolutely agree, again.
Worthy of mentioning twice here and TBH this is why I think the WH community is so vocal on the no local thing. I think they think it would be good for all.
Answers on a postcard to CCCP if you have a good un.
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Lord Zim
2019
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 14:19:00 -
[1205] - Quote
Raptors Mole wrote:1. Zim GÇô GÇ£Yep, they would, by moving the last few isk-making alts from nullsec to hisec, lowsec or WHs insteadGÇ¥.
I honestly donGÇÖt think they would. Hi Sec income is a lot lower than Null, Low Sec carries a lot of risk, WH GÇô well more folks in WH space is a good thing. The thing is that this has already happened, even without making cloaked ships basically I win-buttons when it comes to ganking in nullsec etc.
Raptors Mole wrote:2. Zim GÇô GÇ£The sov system isn't determined by player activity in a system in any way, shape or formGÇ¥.
True, but my thoughts are holding it GÇô and doing something with it are different things. You may hold Sov, but no local may encourage folks to come and run anoms, sites and effectively live under the radar. One there the penny may drop and they may well join your alliance. Local IMHO gives the Sov holders too much of a home advantage. If they're going to do that, then I would've thought they'd rather go to WHs proper, where the rewards match the risk/effort. Hell, WHs make more sense because the rewards are higher and the risks are lower.
Raptors Mole wrote:3. Zim GÇô GÇ£Given that you're in favor of killing bots, then you should be against things like crimewatch 2.0 and maybe even the mining barge changes (honestly it's hard to tell these days, since people don't have to spend much energy to mine with the mack)GÇ¥
I am actually in favour of the recent buff to mining vessels. It was way too easy for some 733T 9v9 chump to land on grid and pop a 150mil ship with a cheap fit dessie. Unfair to say the least. Put on a few tanking mods and you needed more than 1 destroyer. vOv
Raptors Mole wrote:4. Zim GÇô GÇ£What would make the game better for the majority would be what would draw more people out into nullsec. Removing local would benefit one group of players and one group only: gankers who are terrible at this game. They'd just switch into cloaked ships and gank a few ships until people wisened up and moved their isk-making alts to hisec, lowsec or wormholes, at which point we'd be in a worse position than we are in nowGÇ¥.
I agree with the first bit GÇô but how? The good bits are owned and it is currently too difficult to dislodge an establish power. ItGÇÖs not that hard to pop gankers GÇô especially bad ones, and it is great fun GÇô my bait Drake is called GÇ£Taib ToidiGÇ¥ - Idiot Bait backwards, and it works more often than not. It would also give the little people in the alliance something positive to do GÇô ie Actively scouting, plexing, hunting, defending GÇô yGÇÖknow GÇô fun small gang stuff. Perhaps I have my rose tinted spectacle set too high there. The "how" involves making it actually worthwhile for most pilots to actually live there, whereas today the only things really worth doing are PVP, building supercaps and reactions, and reactions etc are easily doable in lowsec instead.
Raptors Mole wrote:4a. Zim - GÇ£What would make the game better for the majority would be what would draw more people out into nullsecGÇ¥.
Absolutely agree, again.
Worthy of mentioning twice here and TBH this is why I think the WH community is so vocal on the no local thing. I think they think it would be good for all.
Answers on a postcard to CCCP if you have a good un. The WH community seem to be underestimating a lot of the differences which would just end up making it economically unfeasible, both time and isk-wise, to bother trying to make a living in a no-local nullsec.
Honestly, sometimes I wish CCP would just remove local, just so I can point out that all the things I said would happen, did happen. It's not like it'll make any lick of difference for me, since I haven't made isk in nullsec for quite a while now, the effortlessness combined with the profitability of hisec just makes it economically unfeasible to do. vOv Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1773
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 14:27:00 -
[1206] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Honestly, sometimes I wish CCP would just remove local, just so I can point out that all the things I said would happen, did happen. It's not like it'll make any lick of difference for me, since I haven't made isk in nullsec for quite a while now, the effortlessness combined with the profitability of hisec just makes it economically unfeasible to do. vOv They might as well.
Let's do it. We already do a ton of PVS (player vs structure) so ok, great. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
MasterEnt
The Scope Gallente Federation
108
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 15:30:00 -
[1207] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:As amusing as I find this thread, it should be locked. It's just the same arguments being spewed over and over again by morons who completely disregard facts contrary to their preconceived positions borne of ignorance and some completely inexplicable sense of spite towards people who live in nullsec.
You are also talking about yourself and your buddies here as well, times five or six at least.
It's not about spite against nullsecers... again you are assuming you are the only ones who have lived or currently live there and assuming the delayed local will only affect you guys.
It's just a (tiny) bit of spite against people who think they are big sh!t know-it-alls. Who puff their chest, think everyone else is stupid and who claim they want more risk on one hand, then whine about something that would add it because they cannot be bothered to work as a team outside the forums.
Finally Lord Zimmy said it (although back-handidly), NO ONE (but him and a select few in his alliance obviously) can really make a claim about how delayed local will affect until it actually happens. He just seems to be certain he is right, others are certain he is wrong.
The only thing he CAN be certain about is that he (and you guys) may leave if local is delayed.
Granted, no one can speak for your actions. But then again, you may just be replaced by people who actually like it. Bad for you... good for eve. Something you don't want to admit, but that's not really anyone else's problem but yours. I've seen null change hands dozens of times due to changes in game mechanics and fist pounding. I'm sure it will happen again. Adapt or die is more like adapt or cry and leave.
Someone else distilled all this even better and with less "spite":
1) Delayed local will add flavor - Improve (my) game -or- 2) Delayed local will add make things harder - Make (my) game worse
That is about what 60 pages comes to, maybe really 25 pages if we condense the amount of times 4 or 5 of you have to reply and put down any one person who dissents with your OPINION. Either way, I think enough of it is on the record.
Lock thread - we can agree on that much at least. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1776
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 15:35:00 -
[1208] - Quote
So we've all decided that nerfing local is necessary to repopulate nullsec right?
Ok, let's get this ~thang~ rollin' Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Lord Zim
2022
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 15:42:00 -
[1209] - Quote
MasterEnt wrote:NO ONE (but him and a select few in his alliance obviously) can really make a claim about how delayed local will affect until it actually happens. He just seems to be certain he is right, others are certain he is wrong. Except the last time CCP ****** up local, null depopulated, and the last time CCP nerfed anoms, null depopulated. It will happen the way I say it will, but the only evidence you will accept is actually seeing it happen.
That's like saying "that pan is hot, touching hot things burn your hand, but the only way to get proof that that particular hot pan will burn your hand is to actually burn your hand". Good thing you're not in games design, is all I can say.
MasterEnt wrote:Granted, no one can speak for your actions. But then again, you may just be replaced by people who actually like it. You mean people like those who have already gone into wormholes, where the rewards actually fit the effort increase over hisec, and where the risk is less than nullsec?
MasterEnt wrote:Bad for you... good for eve. Something you don't want to admit, but that's not really anyone else's problem but yours. I've seen null change hands dozens of times due to changes in game mechanics and fist pounding. I'm sure it will happen again. Adapt or die is more like adapt or cry and leave. Oooh, I see, you think the isk-making alts actually make a difference on sov? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1777
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 15:51:00 -
[1210] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:MasterEnt wrote:Bad for you... good for eve. Something you don't want to admit, but that's not really anyone else's problem but yours. I've seen null change hands dozens of times due to changes in game mechanics and fist pounding. I'm sure it will happen again. Adapt or die is more like adapt or cry and leave. Oooh, I see, you think the isk-making alts actually make a difference on sov? If so, we'd have taken over a lot more of the map, since most groups have isk making alts in highsec. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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Raptors Mole
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
31
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 16:46:00 -
[1211] - Quote
Zim - You mean people like those who have already gone into wormholes, where the rewards actually fit the effort increase over hisec, and where the risk is less than nullsec?
Less risk than Null sec? If it is already less risky than null sec, with no local - the impact should be minimal.
WH space is Dangerous/Deadly - it says so on the wormhole itself. The only reason I have been forum warrioring this weekend is 80 or so pilots from Lost and Talun have evicted an alliance from their C5 this weekend. I spent the majoity of the time on WH control (boring).
Thread: Starts a bit slow but does get funny.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=173032&find=unread
Anyhow, back to normal hunting/scouting
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Soma Khan
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 17:40:00 -
[1212] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: oh look the empire space has higher population density. gosh what a surprise
how about a chart showing isk generation per bot per region. cause that would actually be relevant |
Lord Zim
2026
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 17:45:00 -
[1213] - Quote
Raptors Mole wrote:Less risk than Null sec? If it is already less risky than null sec, with no local - the impact should be minimal. Sigh, I meant less risky in WHs after local was removed from null. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Jeremy Soikutsu
Homeworld Republic Intrepid Crossing
20
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 17:51:00 -
[1214] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:No I am saying that they probably would not care less about the isk if all they had to do was stuff up a few towers and watch the isk roll in.
But we know this will never happen, CCP only givens handouts like that to Null secers I know right. I mean with all these Tech and R64 moons in CE we bearly have enough people to hual out all our filthy lucour. |
Soma Khan
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 17:52:00 -
[1215] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Soma Khan wrote:Lord Zim wrote:He promised to put local into delayed mode, what they've done has been to buff it instead. He also promised to kill blobs, what they've done is to make blobs more and more required.
Your point? you're saying ccp don't make mistakes? Actually, no, what I'm saying is that CCP Zulu said he'd like to do that in 0.0, but it's obvious they realized how damaging it would be to nullsec, so what they did was make this happen in WH space instead. the only thing obvious is that ccp decided that shineyes like incarna and an ingame rmt store will help with the bottom line and we know how well that turned out
now ccp is trying to reach their former glory with updating the spaceship shinyes and balancing, not that theres anything wrong with that
but anything that is risky and requires a lot of work like 0.0 sov game revamp or delayed local is again abandoned for some future when they run out of shineys to update |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1777
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 18:03:00 -
[1216] - Quote
Soma Khan wrote:the only thing obvious is that ccp decided that shineyes like incarna and an ingame rmt store will help with the bottom line and we know how well that turned out
now ccp is trying to reach their former glory with updating the spaceship shinyes and balancing, not that theres anything wrong with that
but anything that is risky and requires a lot of work like 0.0 sov game revamp or delayed local is again abandoned for some future when they run out of shineys to update Nerfing local will solve it, the morons well-playing-of-EVE people in nullsec said so. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
MasterEnt
The Scope Gallente Federation
108
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 18:22:00 -
[1217] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:That's like saying "that pan is hot, touching hot things burn your hand, but the only way to get proof that that particular hot pan will burn your hand is to actually burn your hand". Good thing you're not in games design, is all I can say.
Good argument there buddy - I didn't say the location of those who would replace you.
Besides, even if I was a Game Designer, it wouldn't make (nor shouldn't) make a difference. It would certainly not sway you considering your need to say no one has any experience they say they have as soon a they disagree with your assessment.
If everything was so obvious from the beginning, you would never need constant balancing and tweaking. But it is clear you can accurately predict what over 50,000 people will do in a given system. I am just left wondering why you aren't running CCP and every other game design firm yet, as opposed to wasting your time with what you consider idiots. I wonder how many DEVs you see doing that on the forums... but according to the way you see things, you must think they are idiots also.
Your hot pan analogy is way off, considering delayed local has never been tested in the manner we are discussing. It is more like this:
1) Hot pan = burn. - Tested 2) Water = wet, - Tested 3) Unrelated result = ? - Untested |
Lord Zim
2026
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 18:26:00 -
[1218] - Quote
WH-style local in null has been tested, and we know what the result was. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Soma Khan
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 18:39:00 -
[1219] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Soma Khan wrote:the only thing obvious is that ccp decided that shineyes like incarna and an ingame rmt store will help with the bottom line and we know how well that turned out
now ccp is trying to reach their former glory with updating the spaceship shinyes and balancing, not that theres anything wrong with that
but anything that is risky and requires a lot of work like 0.0 sov game revamp or delayed local is again abandoned for some future when they run out of shineys to update Nerfing local will solve it, the morons well-playing-of-EVE people in nullsec said so.
"What we're trying to do right now is develop a long-term roadmap, and the reason we're talking to players a lot is that we want to be sure you're all on board with what we're planning. The reason I'm not worried about local in this context is that it's a no-brainer that we need to do something, and "doing something about local" is assumed to have the support of the community provided it's something good. What we're more concerned about right now is what our next step should be after that, because we don't want "change local" to be the only thing about intel on our long-term plan." - CCP Greyscale, August 22, 2011
you should read that whole thread, it's pretty educational |
Lord Zim
2026
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 19:00:00 -
[1220] - Quote
Soma Khan wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Soma Khan wrote:the only thing obvious is that ccp decided that shineyes like incarna and an ingame rmt store will help with the bottom line and we know how well that turned out
now ccp is trying to reach their former glory with updating the spaceship shinyes and balancing, not that theres anything wrong with that
but anything that is risky and requires a lot of work like 0.0 sov game revamp or delayed local is again abandoned for some future when they run out of shineys to update Nerfing local will solve it, the morons well-playing-of-EVE people in nullsec said so. "What we're trying to do right now is develop a long-term roadmap, and the reason we're talking to players a lot is that we want to be sure you're all on board with what we're planning. The reason I'm not worried about local in this context is that it's a no-brainer that we need to do something, and "doing something about local" is assumed to have the support of the community provided it's something good. What we're more concerned about right now is what our next step should be after that, because we don't want "change local" to be the only thing about intel on our long-term plan." - CCP Greyscale, August 22, 2011you should read that whole thread, it's pretty educational What I see is CCP Greyscale talking about "we must do something to intel gathering" and "local is probably going to be the first thing we deal with", and very little actual information.
I also saw the thread focus mostly on what to do for PVP, and very little information on what those who actually live there should do. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
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EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
326
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 19:22:00 -
[1221] - Quote
Soma Khan wrote:oh look the empire space has higher population density. gosh what a surprise
It's a shame that the endgame for so many people is doing level4 missions in highsec, don't you agree? What should be done about it?
Soma Khan wrote:"What we're trying to do right now is develop a long-term roadmap, and the reason we're talking to players a lot is that we want to be sure you're all on board with what we're planning. The reason I'm not worried about local in this context is that it's a no-brainer that we need to do something, and "doing something about local" is assumed to have the support of the community provided it's something good. What we're more concerned about right now is what our next step should be after that, because we don't want "change local" to be the only thing about intel on our long-term plan." - CCP Greyscale, August 22, 2011you should read that whole thread, it's pretty educational
It's a good thing that the only fix isn't to remove local, or to have a delayed local and nothing else, which is what most "fix local" people in this thread think is the only option. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1778
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 19:29:00 -
[1222] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:It's a good thing that the only fix isn't to remove local, or to have a delayed local and nothing else, which is what most "fix local" people in this thread think is the only option. Now now, we're just thinking ahead. The new Unified Local UI will definitely exceed our expectations, of course. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1066
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 19:40:00 -
[1223] - Quote
Troll and it's related replies removed.
Thanks. ISD Suvetar,-áCaptain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department We are hiring! |
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Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
654
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 20:12:00 -
[1224] - Quote
Raptors Mole wrote:3. Zim GÇô GÇ£Given that you're in favor of killing bots, then you should be against things like crimewatch 2.0 and maybe even the mining barge changes (honestly it's hard to tell these days, since people don't have to spend much energy to mine with the mack)GÇ¥
I am actually in favour of the recent buff to mining vessels. It was way too easy for some 733T 9v9 chump to land on grid and pop a 150mil ship with a cheap fit dessie. Unfair to say the least. $15,000.00 worth of dynamite brings down a $100,000,000.00 Skyscraper...
"NERF DYNAMITE" cried the skyscrapers...
This WH'er thinks that removing local in K-Space is a pants-on-head stupid idea.
Interdict Hi-Sec - it's the only way to be sure... |
Mirima Thurander
The 8th Tribe Seraphim Dragoons.
404
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 20:52:00 -
[1225] - Quote
I gave a working replacement and it gets ignored as if I haven't said any thing.
No I will never agree that the way local works now is a good thing.
Even zims most stalwart friend here has a link to a idea for changing local from how it works now, and my idea is only a bit more harsh that that. A Dark time comes. A time of terror comes. My time. If it offends you. Stop me. |
Mirima Thurander
The 8th Tribe Seraphim Dragoons.
404
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 21:00:00 -
[1226] - Quote
Look at that its a dev that agrees with my side for nurfing local.
dev posts supporting fixing local as THE intel tool
Why don't u go ahead and give up now.
I given the most fair working of a nurf to local that's out there that's NOT a multi month development process. If u can't be bothered to read the first post in this thread don't bother posting.
Let's see Devs agree nurf local you mean to tell me I have spent 61 pages being right? A Dark time comes. A time of terror comes. My time. If it offends you. Stop me. |
MasterEnt
The Scope Gallente Federation
108
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 21:10:00 -
[1227] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:WH-style local in null has been tested, and we know what the result was.
I thought they were removing troll posts. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
159
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 21:11:00 -
[1228] - Quote
MasterEnt wrote: 1) Hot pan = burn. - Tested 2) Water = wet, - Tested 3) Unrelated result = ? - Untested
Except we have plenty of other examples of nullsec being made harder, or other regions getting stuff that is better than nullsec, to compare.
Anoms got nerfed, so people went to do highsec L4's 1 gimped station per system, so most people do research/industry in highsec FW got buffed to be more profitable than nullsec ratting, tons of us started farming FW Drone alloys were removed, highsec now has the best isk/hr ores
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Mirima Thurander
The 8th Tribe Seraphim Dragoons.
405
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 21:23:00 -
[1229] - Quote
Updated first post with new info. A Dark time comes. A time of terror comes. My time. If it offends you. Stop me. |
Lord Zim
2029
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 21:26:00 -
[1230] - Quote
Like I said earlier, he talks a lot about "gathering intel", i.e. when fighting a war, he says absolutely nothing about living there.
Mirima Thurander wrote:I given the most fair working of a nurf to local that's out there that's NOT a multi month development process. If u can't be bothered to read the first post in this thread don't bother posting. Oh, I read it just fine, but no matter how many times you harp on about it, it does absolutely nothing for people who want to live there, which means it's a bad solution. Come back when you've thought of something to make it actually work for people who live there, as opposed to just run after a fleet. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
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