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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Miss Carry
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
8
   |
Posted - 2013.02.22 11:55:00 -
[541] - Quote
The only "benefit" is see is that you can now
sell the few b-type shield boosters you have left
for a ridiculous amount of isk.
I mean, c'mon on...100mill for a frig mod?
It makes no sense. |
Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
135
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 19:58:00 -
[542] - Quote
I don't always fit 100 million isk modules on my 10 million isk frigates
but when I do I go B-Type..... |
Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 08:57:00 -
[543] - Quote
Bump for Lowsec Justice, Gank'em Style. |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
651
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 08:59:00 -
[544] - Quote
Angelus Ryan wrote:Bump for Lowsec Justice, Gank'em Style.
Heh, I was just thinking about bumping our cause back to da top of The Most Neglected By Devs List :)
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
You've got RED on you
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 20:18:00 -
[545] - Quote
So I stop playing for a month and it's only gone got worse.
A Pirate's Perspective
Official EVE Online Fan Site |
Rimarole
Lynx Squad
Tribal Band
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 04:20:00 -
[546] - Quote
Please bring these DED sites back CCP.
It was a great decision to remove these plexes from high sec. because they were heavily exploited due to the mechanics of highsec. For low sec, it was a very poor decision to move these to exploration sites.These plexes drew many players to these systems, and the rewards for competing against other players were worthy of the risk, and not excessive for the risk that the players were taking. This was a brilliant mechanic that many players enjoyed.
By moving these plexes to the exploration system, the pvp experience in these areas has been greatly diminished. Not only in the systems that these plexes were in, but in the systems that are between these complexes as the players that competed for these resources no longer traffic the area between these plexes. There was a community of players who would move from plex to plex trying to gain control of the plex timer. At any given time, there were several players competing and subsequently there were fantastic firefights for these resources.
The argument could actually be made, that CCP should have sparsely add more of these types of encounters in lowsec and expanding this dynamic by placing sites for cruisers battle cruisers deeper into lowsec. to provide a richer experience for the player base that enjoys small skirmish type warfare. For the frigate, these were the best small gang experience that the game offered and CCP would have done well to slowly expand on this dynamic instead of abruptly removing it from the game alltogether.
These plexes are part of my fondest memories of the game.
CCP, Please bring these back and add a few new ones (maybe a couple of cruiser class plexes too while your at it) as a token of contrition to the small gang warfare community.
Sincerely
Rimarole |
Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad
Broken Chains Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 06:08:00 -
[547] - Quote
Bumped out of frustration.
Just went thru Bos and Heild and nobody.
Whats the proper channel/thread to start rallying behind a canidate for lowsec non Fw PvP? |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:47:00 -
[548] - Quote
I don't fly in lowsec - but almost 1k likes.
If for CCP this kind of support is not enough - then what is? |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
661
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:52:00 -
[549] - Quote
Lowsec outside of FW is irrelevant.
POS revamp would serve only small number of players.
Metrics show nothing is wrong.
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
darmwand
Repo.
88
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:50:00 -
[550] - Quote
A friendly bump from Placid.
darmwand
Repossession Agent
http://www.repo-corp.net/
Recruitment is OPEN |
Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:21:00 -
[551] - Quote
Not bumping cuz Ded's were camped and farmed in lowsec too (by locals, but still  ) especially the profitable - shield mod dropping ones. If you want 'combat grounds' why not ask for more static 'anomalies' with warp gates and ship restrictions (with some rats inside and occasional, once in a million faction spawn).
What I'd like to see is more low-level Ded's spawning in explo system. I have actually yet to see ANY 1 and 2's since the changes and I've had a decent number of the 3,4 and 5's. It's kinda silly  . |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
666
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:34:00 -
[552] - Quote
We don't want "combat grounds" designed and given to us by devs to explode our pixels. We want our emergent gameplay opportunities back.
We made static sites into what they were not devs.
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:52:00 -
[553] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:We don't want "combat grounds" designed and given to us by devs to explode our pixels. We want our emergent gameplay opportunities back.
We made static sites into what they were not devs.
So, let's see, as far as I understand all the whining here comes to 'oh they took our PvP grounds away' argument. So what I proposed provides:
- ship restrictions - check
- potential for good loot (much rarer compared to DED tho), incentive to enter and check it out w/o farming - check
So how is that bad? Sorry but static ded's were just good isk w/o effort for a lot of people (I know cuz I used to run them too). Their removal actually happened in good part because of the abuse that was going on and now people reap the rewards of their behaviour. |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
666
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:20:00 -
[554] - Quote
Your extensive lowsec killboard and employment records really make your opinion valuable for this thread 
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:41:00 -
[555] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Your extensive lowsec killboard and employment records really make your opinion valuable for this thread
Your ability to discuss the issue at hand using adequate arguments instead of turning this into an analysis of personal KB's makes your opinion even more valuable... 
Also, most impressive KB record on your side if I may notice. |
Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:57:00 -
[556] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:
So, let's see, as far as I understand all the whining here comes to 'oh they took our PvP grounds away' argument.
Yet another person failing to understand what the entire thread is about.
No, it isn't about "PvP grounds". Nobody here wants "PvP Grounds". We don't want "(Faction) non-consentual elite PvP staging point", either. I am anything but an elite PvPer. I am a friggin' lowsec scumbag pirate. If I wanted staged combat I'd go and ask for 1v1s in highsec, rather than going -10 and shooting people in the face in lowsec.
What we want is a resource, valuable enough to fight over, in lowsec (hint: "once in a million faction spawn" is not valuable enough. 10-15mil average drop every couple of hours is, as the 2/10s have proven), which is not valuable enough for group control of said resource, leading to solo and VERY small groups of people fighting in and around said resource.
2/10s were near perfect, except for the ability to camp the spawn in the last room, although I've personally chased a lot of people out of said last room with spare keys, or I just killed them there.
Everyone here admitted about 25 times that the farming was a problem and 159 fixes were proposed, to boot. The simplest one: Remove the friggin' keys. Make them into a single deadspace room, with a X minute respawn timer and no key. That's all it takes. Impossible to farm (unless you actively fight to defend your position, in which case you're successfully controlling said resource, and everything works as planned).
There, I just gave you a tl;dr for the whole thread, free of charge. |
Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 16:55:00 -
[557] - Quote
Thanks for tl;dr and I see your point.
The thing is - the title of this thread is sort of a misnomer, and all the people just bumping it would be providing support for a system that was obviously broken. So if title was "replace 2/10 plexes and this is how.." with changes taking into account all that you said there wouldn't be a single person not supporting you I guess (me included).
Being in FW, I know about the goodness plexes can provide for small gang PvP aficionados and I think they are a good mechanic. So, if re-introduced, these new 'sites' should be conceptualised in a different way from what static DEDs provided. What the difference(s) would be I haven't really thought out completely but it could include removal of site's static nature (spawns spreads across systems in a region), maybe lower but more frequent rewards (in terms of bounties perhaps or lower level faction modules) and obviously all the changes which would prevent farming. There is a lot that could be done in a better way, but just returning it to what it was before would be pretty bad, that's all I was trying to say ;).
|
Toterra
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:56:00 -
[558] - Quote
Every-time I go back to this thread I get depressed. If CCP is against farming I guess we will see FW removed next patch, along with null-sec anomolies, moon-goo and incursions. Not much of the game is going to be lest. Ironically, these 2/10 plexes were the least farmed things I just mentioned, yet somehow I think they are going to be the only ones removed ... LOL
Why does CCP replace emergent content with content that is easy to farm ??? |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 16:25:00 -
[559] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:Thanks for tl;dr and I see your point.
The thing is - the title of this thread is sort of a misnomer, and all the people just bumping it would be providing support for a system that was obviously broken. So if title was "replace 2/10 plexes and this is how.." with changes taking into account all that you said there wouldn't be a single person not supporting you I guess (me included).
Being in FW, I know about the goodness plexes can provide for small gang PvP aficionados and I think they are a good mechanic. So, if re-introduced, these new 'sites' should be conceptualised in a different way from what static DEDs provided. What the difference(s) would be I haven't really thought out completely but it could include removal of site's static nature (spawns spreads across systems in a region), maybe lower but more frequent rewards (in terms of bounties perhaps or lower level faction modules) and obviously all the changes which would prevent farming. There is a lot that could be done in a better way, but just returning it to what it was before would be pretty bad, that's all I was trying to say ;).
The tl;dr nature of this thread is shining in all its glory here, which is a testament to how much the removal of these plexes have effected game play (in that we could generate over 28 pages of responses, albeit the last two are almost just bumps... almost).
Randomized spawn locations was discussed a long while back, and it was obvious to all that it is a bad idea given what these complexes were used for. We want a ground to fight on, and a place to fight at, if you make a PVE site that despawns after being run then you are getting just that, more PVE content that isn't generating much or any PVP since the site can be run in such a short period of time and will subsequently despawn. Its the static nature of the complexes that made the fights happen.
Now here's the catch when it comes to making the sites less valuable with the chances of faction spawns (referring to what you said in a previous post), it won't work. There used to be a 1/10 angel run minmatar biofarm (or something along that line). It was a fairly terrible complex with the chance that it would occasionally drop faction loot. Anyone who lived in the areas that these things existed can attest that they were never run, because no one wants to put in time for such a small chance of getting something worth while. My point is that it would not be worth fighting over, and that's the real driver of this game, "worth." The fights you have need to be worth it. More often than not the 2/10's would not drop loot, but they did make good isk when you had some success. But reintroducing a site that is essentially a place for "elite pvp" will not work. There are all ready ruined minmatar outposts that act as beacons in several systems, and they see almost no activity as well.
There have been many and more suggestions on how to fix the broken aspects of the complexes as Angelus Ryan pointed out. It's just a matter of digging through our many pages of content (sorry about that).
There really hasn't been any development on how to improve the complexes since well before CCP Fozzie told us we are all better off now that they are removed. This is not because we are unwilling to discuss the topic, but rather we the content users were so into making a sensible fix that we exhausted most of the good ideas well before CCP actually looked at the thread. I'm not saying that there aren't any good ideas out there now, its just that we have all put a lot of time into trying to come up with plausible ideas all ready.
In short: I have not proposed anything new or groundbreaking in this post here, I am just acting as a reminder that the "problems/fixes" that you proposed have all been discussed thoroughly. |
Miura Bull
Black Laser Movement
47
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:55:00 -
[560] - Quote
There was a dream that was Heild. You could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper and it would vanish, it was so fragile. |
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
Team Liquid
32
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:38:00 -
[561] - Quote
Back in the good days this emergent small gang pvp community* built around these plexes in Molden Heath was there to unite and fight against "the big blobby aggressors" of E-Uni. None of that could happen now days as theres no ground to hold... It was kind of low-sec sov war fighting for low-sec moon goo.
*bunch of people that liked to shoot each other.
I still wonder why those sites were moved into the exploration system BUT at the same time they were removed from low-sec completely. They just don't spawn there. Basically CCP nerfed low-sec at least twice. But then again, I never did any of this so what do I know. |
StahlWaffe
Dark Shadows Of The Night
Hopeless Addiction
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:57:00 -
[562] - Quote
After returning it's really not nice to hear my first pvp proving grounds got removed. I remember having a good time around Teonosude or whatever the highsec system was called with a bunch of lowsec 2/10s around, and although i never did very much down there, i think i might have flown there several times within the last 1 or 2 weeks to get some instant pvp.
Then again i'm in FW now so i can shoot anyways, although every cruiser there goes 4km/s and is linked and boosted into oblivion.
Bring back anything that's worth fighting over in 'normal', non-FW lowsec. Be it the old 1/10 and 2/10, or be it some new, thunderdomeish frigate graveyard that attracts opportunists from all of new eden in tiny, shiny ships with glorious stories to be told. |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:09:00 -
[563] - Quote
StahlWaffe wrote:After returning it's really not nice to hear my first pvp proving grounds got removed. I remember having a good time around Teonosude or whatever the highsec system was called with a bunch of lowsec 2/10s around, and although i never did very much down there, i think i might have flown there several times within the last 1 or 2 weeks to get some instant pvp.
Then again i'm in FW now so i can shoot anyways, although every cruiser there goes 4km/s and is linked and boosted into oblivion.
Bring back anything that's worth fighting over in 'normal', non-FW lowsec. Be it the old 1/10 and 2/10, or be it some new, thunderdomeish frigate graveyard that attracts opportunists from all of new eden in tiny, shiny ships with glorious stories to be told.
Yeah, but whatever the payoffs, they need to justify the risk you are taking. It can't make you as much as another activity that you can do while being safe otherwise there is no draw to come do it. That's the reason the 1/10 and 2/10 worked so well, they had a good draw/reason to fight. |
Toterra
Eighteen Twelve.
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 16:17:00 -
[564] - Quote
Just got back into faction warfare. I can confirm... absolutely no farming of sites there. No-siree!
Here is an nice example of the PVP farming-free playground that is faction warfare. |
Etuura Zellis
The Tuskers
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 22:40:00 -
[565] - Quote
Sorta like http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16462358 and http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16464058. Apparently copy paste is required for all links these days....
Nope not farmed at all. Clearly (not bots even) |
Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
You've got RED on you
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 21:02:00 -
[566] - Quote
I would love to see CCP provide us with the metrics for the lowsec systems that hosted these plexes before they disappeared and now, and then try to bullshit us that PvP in lowsec has increased.
A Pirate's Perspective
Official EVE Online Fan Site |
Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 16:26:00 -
[567] - Quote
Toterra wrote:Just got back into faction warfare. I can confirm... absolutely no farming of sites there. No-siree!
Etuura Zellis wrote:Nope not farmed at all. Clearly (not bots even)
Noone said that FW was fine as it is now. In fact, if you pay attention to FW related threads in W&T part of forum, you'll notice that majority of non-farming FW community has been very vocal about changes required in order to remove or at least discourage farming alt locust swarm which currently dictates svings in sov mechanics.
However, FW plexes have provided a lot of nice fights so I'm sure something similar could be introduced to the rest of lowsec. The fact that FW is broken atm is no excuse for requiring another broken mechanism, which DEDs were, back. They should be replaced by something else which will be hard to farm and potentially rewarding, thus a conflict driver. Now, what it should be I'll leave to CCP to work out, we are paying them for that after all.
Anyway, summer expansion details will be out in 2 days so fingers crossed |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 20:19:00 -
[568] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:Noone said that FW was fine as it is now. In fact, if you pay attention to FW related threads in W&T part of forum, you'll notice that majority of non-farming FW community has been very vocal about changes required in order to remove or at least discourage farming alt locust swarm which currently dictates svings in sov mechanics. However, FW plexes have provided a lot of nice fights so I'm sure something similar could be introduced to the rest of lowsec. The fact that FW is broken atm is no excuse for requiring another broken mechanism, which DEDs were, back. They should be replaced by something else which will be hard to farm and potentially rewarding, thus a conflict driver. Now, what it should be I'll leave to CCP to work out, we are paying them for that after all. Anyway, summer expansion details will be out in 2 days so fingers crossed
Well I do agree with you that this thread is turning into a blatant comparison of FW to the old DED's, and I also agree that they are being abused in much the same way, there are a few points that need to be made.
The fact of the matter is that non FW space can't have the same mechanics for payout since there is no systems changing hands, and LP to be earned from completing these complexes. A fact that I am very much in support of. What we are looking for is not a vanilla FW like complex which would make all of lowsec homogenous, we are looking for something that makes FW space unique, and the other places (non FW space if we must) unique. The DED sites did that admirable, and like FW there were some issues with the sites that were 100% worth fixing. If you would take the time to read the first 400 some odd posts about this you will see that we have come up with many solutions that break the abusable aspect of these plexes and promote competitive PVP for the right to run one of these sites and just maybe get a DED drop.
If all CCP wants is to make FW space different from the rest of lowsec they have all ready done that. The rest of lowsec kind of sucks now with very little exciting PVP. Like it has been said many times, the systems that housed these sites provided a huge number of good fights a week. And I find it incredibly hard to imagine that their removal has done anything but harm the lowsec community, and those seeking lowsec as a gateway to meaningful PVP.
I Will have to agree with Kane Rizzel on this one, CCP owes us some metrics showing us how all of lowsec has benefited from the removal of these complexes. Bearing in mind that they also made some excellent other changes.
(if a doctor cures an ailment and shoots you in the leg with a gun, they can't claim that you are better off for being shot in the leg)
Sylvous
|
Dro Nee
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 03:11:00 -
[569] - Quote
It appears posting is futile but:
I just came back from a break. Since I now have a computer that gets more than 15fps.... in map mode.... I was looking forward to going back to my lowsec life. I JC'd to my old home in Hiematar. Local had a bunch of unfamiliar faces and I think "sweet!" I undock, swing my camera over to check if they are in the 2/10 plex........only to find my favorite landmark no longer there. I frantically try and get the old chat channel up..... only to find it deserted. It doesnt look like any of them log-in anymore. So the removal of 2/10's seems to have removed fun and friends from the game. Needless to say I am bummed.
2/10's is where I cut my PVP teeth. In the early days that plex is what kept me in ships. It also kept me in fights and, more importantly, in lowsec. I used to tell everyone in noobcorp about how fun they were and how they could use them to even out the odds. Granted, that was before they became high-sp, shiny fit central.
I applaud CCP for attempting to remove the farming that was occurring in those sites (hello SB+ hourly pickup character........ you know who you are!). After the original frig and AF buffs the loot drops became too lucrative so I would have even been ok with killing the drop rates. Some folks want to treat them as mini-sov resources- claiming that they should be lucrative enough to make people want to 'own' the system, but I bet they would still prefer reduced loot to what they got. IMO the ISK was never what made 2/10's special though.... so if a reduced drop is unacceptable they can DIAF 
What made them special, for me, was that it was one of the last places where terrain mattered. Individuals who knew the terrain could leverage it to fight groups who did not, instead of having to resort to the standard safe/dock/leeroy SOP that is no fun for anybody. Now I used and abused that terrain, sometimes pushing too far in retrospect (cough*mobile repair stations one the edge of deadspace*cough). Those types of things were pretty minor though and hardly constituted a situation calling for removing the site. A few creative touches, like when the deadspace boundary started moving every 3-4 weeks, would have sufficed.
All in all, you (CCP) sacrificed something that was largely working in lowsec in the name of homogeneity. Hell has a special place set aside for people who do that. REPENT YE SINNERS BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!
[/whine] |
Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 10:36:00 -
[570] - Quote
Sylvous wrote:
I Will have to agree with Kane Rizzel on this one, CCP owes us some metrics showing us how all of lowsec has benefited from the removal of these complexes. Bearing in mind that they also made some excellent other changes.
(if a doctor cures an ailment and shoots you in the leg with a gun, they can't claim that you are better off for being shot in the leg)
Sylvous
Although I've "only" been playing the game for a year and a half I've learned that CCP tends to screw things up nicely before screwing them a bit more and then maybe, just maybe gets it right. They did it with FW with initial tier/LP changes which caused the alt gold rush, then remedied it a bit with changes in November, only to screw it up again with Retribution. Hopefully by summer they'll figure out what they did and sort it out. One year in total . FW peeps have to either weather this storm or give up participating (which some of them did).
Along same lines I wouldn't hold my breath for quick changes in the rest of low-sec. However, the fact that summer expansion mentions all the topics relevant to this thread (exploration complexes, redistribution of resources, new content etc.) might mean that there actually might be some light at the end of the tunnel for low-sec. |
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