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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
9
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Posted - 2013.01.18 14:12:00 -
[421] - Quote
Toterra wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Guys I appreciate you're really frustrated, but making the thread even more hostile than it already is isn't going to attract the developer attention you're looking for. Reading through this thread I am amazed at how respectful it is. There are no threats, no raging, just a persistent (mostly) polite reinforcement that removing these sites destroys an emergent gameplay mechanic enjoyed by low-sec players.
This....tbh I think this thread has been the first one I ever posted on, after years of playing....it just hit a button. I play by anti-pirate rules, and by alliance rules I dont talk much in local. Its been nice to see guys you've been fighting against for awhile laying out quality arguments that would help the lowsec community as a whole.
You've got anti-pirate and pirates united in opposition to this change CCP...I may need to go to church heh.
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Turgesson
Five-0
27
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Posted - 2013.01.18 19:08:00 -
[422] - Quote
SUMMARY FOR CCP (Sorry if I miss anything..I'll edit it if I do. I gleened a lot of this from multiple threads)
1: We agree that high sec statics were a problem and were overdue for removal. Adding them to the high sec exploration system was a good move and would prepare new explorers for the low sec static gate/pve mechanics. This same "graduation" could be thought about for the hop from 3-4/10s being part of the low sec exploration system and added NPC null statics of those types?
2: We cannot give you other suggestions for "arena" type senarios because these statics are exactly what we would suggest. While the inside of these sites restricted ship types the fights outside the gate did not...wars have been fought over these.
3: We don't agree with the metrics used to judge this feature. Was it the ded loot drops being too valuable and being completed by the same people in LOW SEC?
They really weren't that valuable when compared to farming in high sec. Some of those missions have better faction and implant drop rates than the dangerous low sec statics. In this case, the risk was worth the reward and the carrot was working. On this topic we remain open to changes in types or rates of drops that won't rot the carrots.
Low sec statics being completed by the same people just shows the residents of those systems enjoyed them and our traffic is inherently low because of low incentives...so did the metrics take the normal local count into consideration? These "farmers" are also the people in this thread who regularly recruit people and teach new players with this feature. With the main goal of an "interesting pve experiance" we were the interesting part. Think of us as the interactive "boss in the last room" who may hire you.
4: Would it require too much time to solve the gate issues by just unlocking all of them or adding key drops to the belt rats? Could you guys throw them on buckingham like that so we can help you refine and accelerate the process of "fixing" them?
5: "We feel that as a whole this change will be a net positive, although I completely understand that it may not seem the case to those people who strongly benefited from the previous mechanic." - CCP Fozzie.There were no PEOPLE that strongly benefited from these sites. LOW SEC as a total benefited. Removing this feature and expecting a net postive in low sec is inept...sorry to use that word but it fits and is a reason for some hostility.
6: Any of us not interested in faction warfare will still not join it. I would personally rather do a naked bellyflop into a pit full of pecker eating zombies.
7: We are not taking NO for an answer. You unknowingly broke the camel's back with a lot of us. Considering you have representitives here from all backrounds in agreeement it would be unwise for CCP to ignore this issue or try to steer the conversation to "new arenas" any further. |
Baron1499
Five-0
0
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Posted - 2013.01.18 23:32:00 -
[423] - Quote
Good job on the summary Turgesson. I don't know about the whole pecker eating zombie thing, but I would rather play WOW than join faction warfare... never mind that might be just as bad. |
Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy Caldari State
67
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Posted - 2013.01.19 06:41:00 -
[424] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Guys I appreciate you're really frustrated, but making the thread even more hostile than it already is isn't going to attract the developer attention you're looking for.
*Blink*
In my humble opinion, I see a group of dedicated people that have come together to voice their concerns about a feature that they not only enjoyed but some LIVED by. They are frustrated because without notice or discussion, beyond a simple line in an volume of patch notes, that feature disappeared.
We all understand that this is CCP's game and if you so desired you could populate it fuzzy kittens everywhere (don't ask).
All we are saying to you "HEY, WE WERE PLAYING WITH THAT!" and would like those plexes back.
I personally don't think it's game breaking to at least the restore lowsec plexes.
As far as the arena idea, without the"bait", the prey will not come to the watering hole... |
Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
9
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Posted - 2013.01.19 19:54:00 -
[425] - Quote
Thanks for the summary Turg, lays it out nicely. |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
125
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Posted - 2013.01.20 15:14:00 -
[426] - Quote
I'm fairly certain this is the real reason they were removed:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194411&find=unread
CCP is making the "blue loot" extremely rare to make foolish newbs buy plex to afford it. I don't think I would have to convince anyone that the unrated plexes in low sec have spawn/escalation rates about as good as the anomalies and have been that way for a while. If you doubt me run a string of provisional outposts and let me know what ya get...now run a string of 5-6/10s.
Now I understand the metrics. Predatory marketing at its finest....good job CCP! I'm sure your vets will never notice this type of stuff when you post reasons for feature removals that make absolutely no sense. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
603
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Posted - 2013.01.20 16:31:00 -
[427] - Quote
CCP: what if sites like these were cosmic anomalies that popped up on the overview once opened ala FW plexes? No need to probe them down so they can be done while roaming for PVP, can be looked for and done by new players, but they can't be farmed over and over. |
Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
65
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Posted - 2013.01.20 17:21:00 -
[428] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:I'm fairly certain this is the real reason they were removed: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194411&find=unreadCCP is making the "blue loot" extremely rare to make foolish newbs buy plex to afford it. I don't think I would have to convince anyone that the unrated plexes in low sec have spawn/escalation rates about as good as the anomalies and have been that way for a while. If you doubt me run a string of provisional outposts and let me know what ya get...now run a string of 5-6/10s. Now I understand the metrics. Predatory marketing at its finest....good job CCP! I'm sure your vets will never notice this type of stuff when you post reasons for feature removals that make absolutely no sense.
Ooh, on the plus side, at least they stopped 2/10 plex farming
A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |
Tsubutai
Drifting Falling
151
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Posted - 2013.01.20 19:11:00 -
[429] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Back in the day when most of the DED complexes were moved from static spawns to the exploration system, the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were left static because it was thought that leaving them accessible for people who had not yet learned how to probe would benefit new players. A happy side effect of that decision (that most of you are very familiar with) was that the lowsec plexes became geographical landmarks that give people a location to fight over to a certain extent.
One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage): What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?
IMO, the success of the static 1/10 and 2/10 plexes as combat hotspots was down to a combination of factors:
i) Everyone knew where they were, so you could create roaming routes specifically to hit several in succession ii) They provided good enough rewards to warrant spending a few minutes running them if there was no one to fight; this meant sitting still in one place and making yourself easy for other people to find, greatly increasing the likelihood of getting a fight iii) They could be completed in pvp-fit ships, so you didn't have to bring a gimped pve setup or fit a probe launcher if you wanted to run them (which in turn meant that if someone interrupted you while you were running one, you weren't obliged to run away due to being fit for pve) iv) They were limited in number, so if you got jumped in a plex before finishing it, you couldn't just move a few systems over and farm a different site; you had to either stand your ground or cede the plex and go do something else
To be successful, any potential replacement would have to reproduce all four of those factors; the gated pvp arenas you proposed would fail because they don't have good enough rewards to warrant sticking around to run them if there's no one there to fight.
The idea of replacing them with plexes that drop tradeable tags that could be redeemed for sec status (and/or faction standing) gains is more interesting, although it would depend heavily on their market value. A payout of tags that could be sold for 30-50m would be about right, putting them in the same ballpark as FW small plexes at a decent tier. That would also help to eliminate the regional disparity in the values of the old static plexes, where the blood/sansha/serpentis statics dropped relatively low value deadspace loot (ANPs, SARs, and prop mods, which were typically worth ~30m at most) whereas the gurista and angel plexes could drop much more valuable c- and b-type shield boosters.
I'd also like to address one factual inaccuracy in your post:
Quote:The benefits of this change [removing the static plexes] will be wider access to the pve content provided by these plexes and hopefully more people exploring lowsec as a whole This is impossible - under the new system, the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes only spawn in highsec, so there is no way that the change would provide any impetus to explore lowsec. |
Olleybear
I R' Carebear
175
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Posted - 2013.01.20 21:35:00 -
[430] - Quote
If the static plexes arent brought back to low sec with anti-farming fixes, I want to be cuddled by the dev(s) that decided to remove them. My inner carebear is broken hearted now and I need some personalized consolation.
Word of warning though. Bear is in my character / corp name for more than one reason and when the dev(s) begin spooning me, they will quickly find out just how hairy my bottom really is.
That mental image alone should be more than enough incentive to get the statics put back in.
When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |
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Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
10
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Posted - 2013.01.21 10:34:00 -
[431] - Quote
Ok Olley, that shite cracked me up. :) |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
45
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Posted - 2013.01.21 13:45:00 -
[432] - Quote
Well currently CCP actions allowing the low sec to be only barrier to blue booting null - so reducing the "value" to be in null - they shrink this barrier ;)
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Turgesson
Five-0
33
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Posted - 2013.01.21 18:47:00 -
[433] - Quote
Kane Rizzel wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:I'm fairly certain this is the real reason they were removed: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194411&find=unreadCCP is making the "blue loot" extremely rare to make foolish newbs buy plex to afford it. I don't think I would have to convince anyone that the unrated plexes in low sec have spawn/escalation rates about as good as the anomalies and have been that way for a while. If you doubt me run a string of provisional outposts and let me know what ya get...now run a string of 5-6/10s. Now I understand the metrics. Predatory marketing at its finest....good job CCP! I'm sure your vets will never notice this type of stuff when you post reasons for feature removals that make absolutely no sense. Ooh, on the plus side, at least they stopped 2/10 plex farming
And unleashed a bunch of outlaws on high sec targeting people right inside Tier 1 and 2 of their layered model for customers. They really should edit those CSM minutes better to not let us know exactly where to hit their wallet. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
560
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:16:00 -
[434] - Quote
Turgesson wrote:Kane Rizzel wrote: Ooh, on the plus side, at least they stopped 2/10 plex farming
And unleashed a bunch of outlaws on high sec targeting people right inside Tier 1 and 2 of their layered model for customers. They really should edit those CSM minutes better to not let us know exactly where to hit their wallet.
How was it at last fanfest? "We give you tools, you find a way how to abuse them?" :)
I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
66
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Posted - 2013.01.21 21:57:00 -
[435] - Quote
but in this case it's more like "We take away the tools and then we ignore you" A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |
Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
270
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 13:10:00 -
[436] - Quote
Still waiting for the promised discourse with the developer responsible. Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |
Turgesson
Five-0
36
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:05:00 -
[437] - Quote
I made that summary the way I would if I had a vendor telling me lies. Give them another week or three to figure out how to outsmart us with more bull. |
Primae Nocte
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.01.22 19:16:00 -
[438] - Quote
As far as I can tell, after spending 10+ hours scanning. The number of low-sec sites to explore is ridiculously low for North American timezone. This is just a massive minus to low-sec. Don't pretend that there is anything good coming from this change. Please put it back. |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
92
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:39:00 -
[439] - Quote
Primae Nocte wrote:As far as I can tell, after spending 10+ hours scanning. The number of low-sec sites to explore is ridiculously low for North American timezone. This is just a massive minus to low-sec. Don't pretend that there is anything good coming from this change. Please put it back.
While I do appreciate seeing yet another person putting their voice towards the cause (thanks mate!), I do feel that I need to point out that your reasons are not what we are looking for.
Yes it may be true that the number of exploration sites in low sec are not that high, but its not exploration sites we want. Exploration sites are a PVE isk making activity that the bulk of us can agree that we do appreciate because losing ships costs isk. What we want back is our static plexes not because of the PVE aspect, but because of the combat it instills in the area. The reason we like it is because yes it can be seen as a source of isk generation, but it also is for the bulk of us a source of purpose. Something to fight over. Because of the value of these places which remain in one location making them easy for anybody to get to they become a hotbed of PVP. As stated innumerable times before its because of the intrinsic value of these complexes that PVP prospers here in conjunction with their static nature. Removing any one aspect, (static or value) makes removes their viability as a key PVP site. Removing the value from them makes them no better than a asteroid belt or planet, and last time I logged on we had a few of those in space, and removing their static nature makes them like the other exploration sites that we all ready have, yes they do produce PVP, but it is very infrequent and unreliable. Not to mention it always is a PVE ship vs a PVP ship, which is not the kind of fight that we are looking for.
Sylvous |
darmwand
Repo.
82
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:53:00 -
[440] - Quote
I'm somewhat surprised to see that this still hasn't been resolved. I thought the Jita protests would have taught CCP not to completely ignore the players but this looks very much like the good old strategy of doing things that everybody disagrees with and then keeping quiet, hoping that people will just shut up. Sigh. darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/ Recruitment is OPEN |
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Tavisturus
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 01:47:00 -
[441] - Quote
I just want to make it known that I still support everything in this thread even though I haven't logged in or undocked in about a month. I still exist! |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
2986
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 03:45:00 -
[442] - Quote
What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
478
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 03:56:00 -
[443] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit.
Simple solution, requires no new coding, doesnt require obliterating a vibrant pvp community |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
144
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Posted - 2013.01.23 04:14:00 -
[444] - Quote
low-sec only, keep them on overview, but shuffle them around like normal plexes (so that the booster-faggots have to make SOME effort to camp them)
if that's not feasible, then I think the change is better than the former status quo |
St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1113
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 06:29:00 -
[445] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit. Or maybe have it like the FW mechanism where the sites appear as anomalies on system scan and pop on overview as soon as someone warps to them, and change the timer to run out and despawn when no one is in the site. |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
93
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 06:32:00 -
[446] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit.
I love the idea for the same reason that Michael does, but I have to ask (because I have no idea how incursion sites work), won't that mean that as soon as the site is complete, or shortly there after it will disappear entirely and no longer appear on the overview? Because if that's the case it won't work for what we desire, which is a PVP hotbed.
Depending on the ship being used it takes 2-5 min to run those, and that is too narrow a window for PVP to occur reliably (I am obviously going under the assumption that it disappears here). Should it disappear after being run and only appear when it is ready to run, someone will run the site as soon as it shows up, thus eliminating the beacon, meaning that for the hour and a bit between spawns there will be no place that acts as a PVP hotbed. It is the static nature of these beacons that is one of the key aspects here. Even when the complex is not spawned, in fact especially when the complex is not spawned it attracts people to it to check it out and PVP ensures, and if it disappears the whole point of having it is defeated. Yes the PVE aspect would be appreciated, but that is the minor part of bringing them back.
Sadly to avoid third room camping I feel that new coding is required in order to make the complexes viable if they are to be brought back. Making it so that as long a player remains inside the plex all the gates remain unlocked would help for most campers, and preventing cloaking in the second and third rooms would stop the cloaking campers (should there be no player in the third or second rooms all the gates lock again making a key required to get back in).
This would keep the PVP happening and in all likelihood given the scarcity of the 2/10 complexes in high sec be a HUGE boon to PVP in these systems (I get chills just thinking about it).
Sylvous |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
133
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 13:58:00 -
[447] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit.
Great idea with just one problem. You're asking them to design something different which will take forever. Sure, make something better and I'm certain this same number of people will be interested in testing it. In the mean time, as a good faith measure, can we just get the old stuff back until this theoretical new hotness is ready? |
Patches Esq
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.01.23 17:13:00 -
[448] - Quote
So, CCP Bettik ganked my Venture :P
In all seriousness, being destroyed and then having my pod blown up didn't really bother me much. I did read the Bio of the person who killed me (Turgesson), and was curious as to what he was talking about in it, so I opened a conversation with him.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a crybaby post. I didn't lose much. I'm not upset, and have no reason to be upset. I don't even do Low-Sec yet, as I'm still pretty new to the game. After talking to him (He killed me, so what? He is a pretty nice guy) about it, and reading this thread, I can say that it's kind of crummy to take this away from the players.
People obviously enjoy this feature, and it seems neat. A place with ship restrictions that is marked and known to be a PVP spot where you can fight over loot/resources? It seems like EVE is built around PVP, and taking away the hotspots for PVP seems like it goes against what I originally got interested in the game for.
As I said, I'm not whining. I know full and well that when I undock from a station I am consenting to being trashed in PVP, be it in High-Sec or somewhere else. This is part of the game. At most, I'm thankful that I learned about something in the game I knew nothing about, and met a guy who AFTER he killed me actually gave me some advice on how to fit my ship properly to give myself a chance next time.
So, even though I'm a victim of being molested in High-Sec by Turgesson, I still support this thread. Why would you take away something that keeps your players coming back? It sounds like fun.
Does anyone care what new players think? Lol. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
560
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 21:04:00 -
[449] - Quote
Well, CCP say they care but they also say pvp is a core value in Eve so... meh...
And you seem to have great attitude so I hope you will stick around long enough to experience all activities Eve has to offer.
As for Turgesson and your convo after gank, this is exactly where you can see how much of bullsh!t NPC corp chat channels are. Hisec gankers, lowsec pirates, null dwellers - they all interact with you and gank is just a way of saying hello. Talk to them, ask what could you do to avoid losing ship or how to fight back and in most cases you will learn sth and maybe even will gain one more friendly contact. There are asshats that will point and laugh but more often than not you will meet nice people.
Ok, let's not make this thread into newbie appreciation fest :) I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Turgesson
Five-0
39
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Posted - 2013.01.24 15:38:00 -
[450] - Quote
For every Patch there are 500+ Ereeres. I edited his name so he doesn't turn into a punching bag.
I don't really know what he's talking about either...the kill?...the 100k bounty for spamming KR notes at me? All I know is if you extend acts or Sutoka him he gets really really mad and rage logs.
I will not fight! From: Eemere XXXxxxXXX Sent: 2013.01.21 17:45 To: Turgesson,
Please remove the bounty from you within a week,
If you do not it will submit a report to the management "as a" psychological harassment ".
If you would extend to acts or Sutoka increase the bounty is
I will mail to each case management, |
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