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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Chigurh Friendo
Dred Nots
0
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Posted - 2012.12.02 21:11:00 -
[91] - Quote
I think Sugar Kyle said it best. For reasons relating to the preservation of a unique element of low-sec PvP, I support the OP's position.
Having formally stated my position, I'll nonetheless concede that this system needs an overhaul. Regarding the hi-sec portion, I acknowledge that this content needs to be removed and/or incorporated into the revamped exploration system.
Regarding the PvE aspect of the low-sec portion, I think that the sites are reasonably high reward relative to almost no effort invested. Sites can be blitzed in as little as 5-10 minutes, and the drops are consistently valued at upwards of 20M on the market. Furthermore, the nature of the demand for the items dropped is relatively inflexible, given that some of the modules routinely dropped are among the best frigate-sized modules available in the game... and 'elite' PvPers in EVE demonstrate an uncanny tolerance for costs provided they are giving themselves the maximum threshold of module performance possible (i.e. 'elite' links, 'elite' faction mods, 'elite' boosters, etc.). In other words, this PvE content 'breaks' the supposed 'risk vs. reward' model that CCP is (was?) shooting for. People who routinely farm these sites for profit will either camp alts in the systems in question (especially the low-traffic station-system ones) and then run the site on a timer, since the respawn timing is well-known and predictable. An alternative and similar method I've seen is for people to low-sec system jump around so that they can run each of the sites as they come out of their respawn timer. This method is obviously more risky, but given the precision of respawn and the access restrictions between rooms (without the appropriate keys) the risk is greatly mitigated (again breaking the supposed model). The other 'farmer' type that I'm aware of is the individual who purges the site of NPCs and then sits in the last room after claiming the reward. Risk is again mitigated by the broken inter-room gate-key restriction access model, and these individuals will either go so far as to sit hundreds of kilometers off of the final room landing beacon or they will remain in the site cloaked.
Overall, the farming of PvE content in these static sites is broken. Whereas the first 'offender' is conceivably possible to catch, the window-of-opportunity is incredibly small (exacerbated by gate access restrictions between rooms). The second 'offender' is also possible to catch... most likely involving gate-camps (since these players are predictable and operate on timers) or maybe simultaneous warp-ins... though, again, the window of opportunity is very small. Ironically, I'd say that the third 'offender' type is the easiest to catch, since these players tend to be the most lazy, incompetent, and complacent farmer of the bunch. Often, these players rest assured in 'knowing' that the gates are locked since they were the ones to grab the inter-room gate-keys... In doing so, many of them will blatantly sit AFK in the final room. The fact that this type of gaming behaviour conceivably represents the 'optimal' method of farming behaviour underscores just how broken this PvE content is.
Having ranted and rambled about the poor implementation of PvE content that the static DED complexes represent, let me finally underscore the reasons why I am in favour of keeping this content in the game (within lowsec). For one thing, I don't think it 'hurts' to allow would-be farmers and/or pirates to farm these sites as described provided that this occurs strictly within lowsec. That is, each farming behaviour I've described represents an 'opportunity for player interaction' in the form of either competing for scarce resources and/or engaging in PvP combat. More importantly, however, the static DED plex beacons and gates represent a 'sandbox battleground' that has emerged (emergent gameplay) in lowsec piracy communities. The combination of a clearly dscannable static beacon that imposes warp-in and tactical-warp restrictions creates a unique environment for PvP combat. Indeed, one of the only places that someone can hope to take on an overwhelming number of opposing players (without strictly outclassing their combat vessels) is through careful flying on the pre-entry gate-grid.
Well, hopefully that provides a comprehensive perspective on this issue. If you've made it this far, then thanks for reading. |
Seraph Minayin
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Monkeys with Guns.
11
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Posted - 2012.12.02 21:36:00 -
[92] - Quote
Posting to support.
1/10s and 2/10s are great places to find frigate fights currently.
Please don't remove them CCP!
My blog on EVE-áhttp://seraph-minayin.blogspot.com/ |
Mane Frehm
The Executioners
Capital Punishment.
28
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Posted - 2012.12.02 22:56:00 -
[93] - Quote
Pleased to see the response from 3 CSM members; saddened (but not surprised) by the fact that this change came out of tthe blue (or whatever viking colour inspired it).
Being a positive fellow...this is an opportunity for CCP:
a) to acknowledge that this was a mistake and will be reversed (sooner rather than later)
b) to recognize that much of what happens in game and how game mechanics are used is not obvious and that CCP needs to understand the true impact of any proposed change before announcing/making it, and
c) use the various consultation mechanics available to them for all proposed changes, not just some propsed changes
|
Seliah Aldard
Red Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.03 02:04:00 -
[94] - Quote
+1
These things really are the lifeblood of some of the lowsec regions |
Eta Monakh
Frequent Flyers
Redrum Fleet
0
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Posted - 2012.12.03 04:26:00 -
[95] - Quote
+1 , just to add one more vote onto the landslide: removing static plexes is stupid beyond comprehension. It about wipes out all the goodwill I can muster for Retribution.
And that is coming from hi-sec carebear industrialist.
Removing the static DED complexes removes yet one more motivation for hi-sec'ers to venture into lo-sec - not to mention the loss of motivation for the Explorers in the player base.
While personally I'd like to be hi-sec :perfectlysafe: (*duh*), I know that the spice of the game comes from the _necessity_ to venture into dangerous areas - in this case: lo-sec.
If anything, New Eden needs more static entities in lo-sec to fight over and take informal(!) ownership of, not fewer. |
Nik Domar
Acerbus Vindictum
Stealth Wear Inc.
4
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Posted - 2012.12.03 04:55:00 -
[96] - Quote
Change like this is very unfortunate. I have fought in those 2/10 plexes many times and I recognize many people who has responded to this thread from those plexes.
These complexes had unique ability to gather frigate/destroyer size PvPers to fight over small prize or just to have a place where combat could happen without interference of larger ships. Main problem of these sites have been related to PvE side of the complex and resulted in complex farming
While trying to fix the PvE side problem, the PvP side of the complex is getting totally ignored. Many non-FW regions do not have any other unique complexes like these for small ship PvP.
Easy solution for this would be to reverse the change and put these complexes back they used to be along with all of their little problems, but maybe there is alternative.
There could be new lowsec feature, where previous issues of these sites would be fixed and their advantages boosted. There are multiple things to take into consideration here
First of all reward of the site should be decent enough to be worth fighting over. If max reward is too low, players won't be as much encouraged to run the site and fight over the loot. If DED loot is going to stay in original 1/10 and 2/10 complexes, something else should be considered here.
PvE opposition could be something like new faction warfare NPC opposition as PvE opposition shouldn't interfere with PvP. Reward should also be non-farmable, so access to the site wouldn't require key to enter and the reward dropping mechanism wouldn't be accessible by just cloaking and waiting for container to drop/structure to spawn/npc to spawn.
Location of the site should be just little bit dynamic. Sites should still be in same system for decent amount of time (let's say up to one week). After time has passed, complex would despawn and respawn somewhere else in same region. Also entry to site itself using acceleration gate could be diffirent, to prevent anyone camping entry point with ships, such as instalock legion/loki, to give better access to site and possible fight with similar sized ships for everyone.
These complexes could also be spawned into areas where there has not been previously 1/10 or 2/10 complexes to farm, but total number should be kept low, to keep reward value high and PvPers more concentrated to certain areas.
Even if this sounds small problem for some of the players, for lowsec people who actually live and fight in the systems where these complexes are located, it is actually very important part of their daily PvP. I really hope something will get done to return or replace old complexes. |
Heribeck Weathers
Plausible Deniability.
27
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Posted - 2012.12.03 05:01:00 -
[97] - Quote
Ok As a frequent visitor of the plex in Heild i am angry about this, R1ita practiacaly LIVE in that plex and are always a fun fight. CCP you best think real hard about removing these from low sec, we pirates are fewer in number but we get a ton of blog readers and have our amount of sway. |
Akamira Hayate
Smutjes Revenge
0
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Posted - 2012.12.03 07:11:00 -
[98] - Quote
Those DED Sites, I really will miss them if CCP really wants to kill them. I had some of my best fights in those sites. Never I will forget the engagement vs a jaguar of an elder player with my very first, poor skilled and somehow poor fitted sentinel which ended in a three minute nightmare of capmanagement in deep structure. On the pve side those DED gave me my path in eve. From highsec treasurehunter to DED ninja in highsec finally to pvp in lowsec. In my opinion, for a solo pilote the risk/rewar of those sites was never too high at least in the lowsec sites. Just enough to keep a stock of t1/t2 Frigattes and maybe cruisers alive over the month.
Well it`s long time ago when I was in highsec last time but last I noticed about DEDs was the increase of afk farmers. Few months ago I first realized them being in lowsec aswell in cloakys.
To be honest the game mechanic of those DED never was the best. Rats were to be handled easy, respawn always in the same cycletime. But lowsec DEDs regulate themself thanks to the existence of Lowsecbrothers and smallscale pvp. The cloakys might be difficult to catch but it`s possible. Otherwise some anti cloaking zone int his sites would help to eliminate the farmer issue in the same way like simply delete statics and add them to Exploration.
Be true to yourself CCP, you just choosed the cheapest and easiest solution without thinking about negative consequences.
We mostly appreciate your fight vs farmingexploits. But your choosen solution is just another kick in the balls of lowsec culture.
Delete them in highsec and add them to exploration contents there, but KEEP the statics in lowsec, really!
Don`t remove static lowsec DEDs!
|
Toshi Zawa
Mentally Unstable Enterprises
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
0
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Posted - 2012.12.03 09:01:00 -
[99] - Quote
I support this too. Plexes have been a key focal point of solo/small gang PVP. Taking it out of low-sec is detrimental to this. |
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
Team Liquid
14
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Posted - 2012.12.03 12:11:00 -
[100] - Quote
First it was E-Uni and now CCP ruining the fun. Is there someone to war dec now?
*support* |
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NorthCrossroad
EVE University
Ivy League
29
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Posted - 2012.12.03 14:30:00 -
[101] - Quote
Removing those static plexes from high-sec might be ok, since those plexes are camped 23.5/7. But in low-sec it is a totally different story. If you do not like that people get too high payout for those static plexes - you can reduce it somewhat (one more time). Fine. But really, keep those plexes around.
It is an abvious move to push people towards faction warfare, but in reality a lot of us do not want to participate in FW to have some small-ship PvP. And those plexes were always a center of gravity for such activities.
North |
Zenver
AfterMath.
Broken Toys
12
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Posted - 2012.12.03 15:01:00 -
[102] - Quote
As someone who has had numerous fun pvp engagements in such plexes I support the OP's points.
Please reconsider removing these unique eve locations. Homogenizing the game and doing 'clean up' is all well and good, but it's nice to leave a few things behind. Even if only so the older players can point them out to noobies and say 'I remember when...' |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
52
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Posted - 2012.12.03 15:43:00 -
[103] - Quote
Please replace them with PVP arenas.
I know you can do this CCP.
Or have the fw npcs not shoot unaligned characters so we can fight there. |
Frood Frooster
EVE University
Ivy League
8
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Posted - 2012.12.03 15:54:00 -
[104] - Quote
Static plexes in lowsec serve a great PvP purpose because they are a) static and b) hold loot that is valuable enough to fight about it.
Static plexes in highsec serve the purpose of showing brand new players NPC combat besides missions. It works this way: new players sees beacon, wonders what it is and learns about exploration that way.
Therefore I would:
- keep the 1/10 plexes static in highsec and replace the 2/10 plexes in highsec with 1/10 plexes.
- keep the 2/10 plexes static in lowsec and replace the 1/10 plexes in lowsec with 2/10 plexes.
|
turlough dominian
EVE University
Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2012.12.03 16:21:00 -
[105] - Quote
bad ccp , bad ccp :D
+1 for not removeing
the guys who posted befor me have a valid point pow pow |
Maleficas
Repo.
4
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Posted - 2012.12.03 16:25:00 -
[106] - Quote
+1 |
Damay Aprionati
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
4
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Posted - 2012.12.03 17:41:00 -
[107] - Quote
Don't do it. You guys are dicks.  |
CoiledVipers
Calamitous-Intent
0
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Posted - 2012.12.03 18:23:00 -
[108] - Quote
I sincerely hope this change doesn't get made. It's already difficult enough for new players or even old players to find small scale pvp in affordable ships. This change is just farting on the people |
San Fransisco
Silver Falcon Survey
22
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Posted - 2012.12.03 20:43:00 -
[109] - Quote
I have never been to a lowsec DED plex but from what I have seen in this thread and http://lowseclifestyle.blogspot.com/ on this blog, I can see why it is a problem that they are being removed. Had I known that these plexes were a good way to have throttled low cost PvP I would have joined in before now.
I would like to suggest a possible solution to this problem that could appeal to the pirate crowd  as well as fit in to the story of eve.
Lets say, for story reasons, that the DED Plexes were cleaned up once and for all by CONCORD. Hence their removal at the start of Retribution. Well wouldn't the pirate factions have responded somehow.
I propose that an agent in space, representing the corporation of the local rats, be added to the system that once held the static plex. The agent could offer missions into the old dead-space pocket to recover the random macguffin. The new/old complex would have the same ship restrictions as are currently being utilized to throttle the PVP. I think it would be a good way to add some pirate themed PvE so that players could blow up some CONCORD ships and gain standing with a Pirate corp without needing to go all the way to null-sec
This way the reward for going to the site would still be there but the "farming" would be no worse than at any other agent.
Obviously leaving them untouched is a viable solution as well but this one might appeal to the story/roleplay folks |
Sizemore Gnaaa
SizeSwarm
0
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Posted - 2012.12.03 21:18:00 -
[110] - Quote
when i was a few month old, a more experieneced guys send me to a system formation with 2/10 plexes. iused to learn more about things people call pvp.
after i was shoot 9 times, i archived my first solo kill and a few sometimes less solo ones follwed
those plexes made it possible for me to pay my losses and grow into pvp
please dont remove em, they are great for young players!
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Miura Bull
Hellhawks
The Devil's Tattoo
34
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Posted - 2012.12.03 21:23:00 -
[111] - Quote
So it appears that these things are farmed extensively in highsec at no risk. The fix for that would be to remove them. That's what is clearly happening and for the most part we would agree that this highsec farming isn't good at whatever level. Okay, we can live with that.
But the lowsec ones are a different breed altogether.
The lowsec ones are like beacons to whole communities, people build corporations and their entire game time around them and by removing them from lowsec you will see once vibrant systems become ghost towns. This will either be from people moving somewhere else which isn't that bad in the long term or it could be from people who once enjoyed a part of the game to simply not play any more because their community and play style has disappeared overnight. Some might say that's a far-fetched claim but I do feel some people do feel that strongly about them.
They're also used as waypoint markers for roams. I don't think I'd have ever started roaming lowsec systems if it wasn't for my planned DED complex routes and waypoints. The fights I would find there kept me interested in this game in the early days and I dare say if they weren't there I'd probably be playing something else right now. What will draw the next nooby frigate pilot who wants to venture into lowsec to keep subscribing?
To an extent the lowsec complexes can be farmed as well. A simple fix for this would be to make it impossible to remain in the last room after shooting the structure. Instead make it so they have to start again in the first room with full timers. I will guarantee you that they would not be so keen on farming them if they had to start in the first room again. 
tl;dr remove highsec ones yes. lowsec ones need to remain but need the mechanics tweaking. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery
Team Liquid
383
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Posted - 2012.12.03 22:53:00 -
[112] - Quote
You would think that after 6 pages of every single person saying this is a bad change, a dev would pop in here and say "oops, our bad, its going to be reverted" or "lolno, we hate lowsec and want you to suffer" or SOMETHING |
Miiis Sweety
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.12.03 22:59:00 -
[113] - Quote
What are you replacing the plexes with that generates as much pvp fun?
Seriously, give Low Sec back some love, not ripe it from our hearts! |
Taoi Khan
Unh0ly Union
Mountain Sprouts
3
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Posted - 2012.12.03 23:04:00 -
[114] - Quote
How about some info, some hints, Dev blogs, something before such a major change has to be done.
Where are the CSM Comments? Where is the public discourse?
Have you learned nothing from Jita burning?
Get people in Low Sec, not bore them to death.
GET A CLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
28
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Posted - 2012.12.03 23:22:00 -
[115] - Quote
Taoi Khan wrote:How about some info, some hints, Dev blogs, something before such a major change has to be done.
Where are the CSM Comments? Where is the public discourse?
Have you learned nothing from Jita burning?
Get people in Low Sec, not bore them to death.
GET A CLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Check the previous pages and give the post a read from the beginning, the CSM are aware of this (or at least some of its members are) and were just as shocked as the rest of us.
But yeah, I do agree with you, some recognition from CCP would be VERY much appreciated given the magnitude of what they are proposing to do with some of the most lively PVP arenas in low sec. Issue is the people who this affects the most often can't go to Jita to protest due to our security status, so we might need to resort to mass ganking of mining barges and Orcas in high sec to recruit the miners to our cause.
:P |
Didona Carpenito
Akimamur Industries
22
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Posted - 2012.12.03 23:31:00 -
[116] - Quote
I live in low sec. I make profits off selling to the people who get killed in the lower plexes and pvp in the local area.
Why am i being penalized for this low sec nerf?
I will never go to null sec, nor high sec.
CCP, be like doctors and do no harm, don't take my profits away from me!!! |
Ardaeik Marconea
Akimamur Industries
2
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Posted - 2012.12.03 23:44:00 -
[117] - Quote
Ok I'm a bitter old vet but one of the reasons I like this game is there is so much to do. But slowly bit by bit its getting homogenized and the more one thing is like the next the more older players like me will give up on the game as there is nothing new to do. CCP keep the variety in the game and stop this dull boxing up into nice little easy packets. If people want to frigate pvp give them more than faction warfare to do it in these site are focus point for some players some make isk from them and other do their best to riun the others day THATS what Eve is all about |
Toterra
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
41
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Posted - 2012.12.04 00:06:00 -
[118] - Quote
This is a disaster. This is one of the few things in low-sec that actually work. I can't stress enough how important this is to low-sec denizens! |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1208
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Posted - 2012.12.04 00:37:00 -
[119] - Quote
I actually find this sort of amusing. Many times it has been suggested that there should be combat arenas in Eve, areas protected by gates that filter by ship type and allow for free combat within. Every time its suggested the cry goes out:
"NO!!!!!! It will kill PvP and Eve will turn into WoW and die!"
Now it turns out that PvE content is being re-purposed for these exact arenas, and its removal is causing complaints!
+1 for areas allowing for frig only or cruiser and below only combat. Either the DED complexes, or just an empty area protected by a gate.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Gwydion Voleur
Anarchic Exploration
7
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Posted - 2012.12.04 00:38:00 -
[120] - Quote
Supported. Keep the statics in lowsec. |
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