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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |

Adele Godel
The Spawning Pool Team Liquid
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 22:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
From patch notes: 1/10 and 2/10 static DED complexes have been moved to the exploration system
The static frigate plexes are currently a wonderful place that draws people in for pvp. Please dont change them to the exploration system. Making them no longer static will kill systems like heild, which pretty much has frigates fighting 23/7 on the frigate plex. Right now, in many systems, the frigate plexes are a pvp hotspot. We have enough pve content in the game, there is no need to make the frigate plexes pure pve.
If you want to change something about the plexes, how about equalizing the spawn timers between different factions? |

TehCloud
Carnivore Company
6
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 23:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
I completely support this. Those static DED complexes are great for frigate pvp.
Save the Thunderdomes! My Condor costs less than that module! |

Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company
38
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 23:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
I approve of this proposal.
As mentioned by Adele, the Static 2/10s catalyze a lot of frigate pvp. Especially Heild is a nice hot spot and target for small frigate roams with 1 or 2 buddies. It takes about 10 seconds to 5 minutes until someone shows up and puts up a fight there.
On the other hand, i can see why this step is taken: Highsec static anomalies are easy to farm and good income with almost no effort. If the loot fairy likes you a day, you can do a few hundred million of isk with zero risk and effort.
So maybe, what might be a solution:
Remove the current static sites from all space. Introduce new statics to lowsec. Or keep the old ones. Remove any gate key restrictions in the new statics. Maybe design them like a worlds collide mission, or a small maze. Hell, you could even adapt the factional warfare capture mechanic and add a container in the sites that has to be captured by a corp or player and if the timer is over you can acces the can, get some nice deadspace loot (frig sized! (Add cruiser Thunderdomes, too!)). Maybe some modules that aren't around yet / lack a deadspace variant? I'm looking at the Energized Adaptive Armor Layering Membrane as an example. Capacitor batteries with actual nice stats even on micro / small. Deadspace small capacitor boosters. Deadspace webs n points that have normal range but cost by far less capacitor. Or have a better overheat bonus.
Just think of stuff that's cool for frigs and maaaaaybe cruisers that won't be overpowered on cruiser hulls and above. |

Adele Godel
The Spawning Pool Team Liquid
2
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 23:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
tbh, i had no idea that these plexes even existed in highsec. Those I have no problems with converting to exploration sites, but again, the lowsec sites are pvp areas more than pve. |

Sard Caid
Gunpoint Diplomacy
70
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 01:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Among my #1 sources of fun, entertaining PvP and sources of fights for my stream is from the 1/10 and 2/10 static complexes. They're not breaking any system, instead acting as a source of revenue for PvPers, newer players, and most importantly common meeting place for regular brawls. Please do NOT remove them from their current form! |

Sard Caid
Gunpoint Diplomacy
70
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 01:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adele Godel wrote:tbh, i had no idea that these plexes even existed in highsec. Those I have no problems with converting to exploration sites, but again, the lowsec sites are pvp areas more than pve.
This works for me. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
207
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 01:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
I support OP. Where will I lose ships if you take our 2/10 Heild plex away? Do I really have to post sad ponies to make you change your mind? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Etuura Zellis
The Tuskers
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 01:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Keep our static plexes in low, as mentioned they are an excellent draw for fights, and can provide that little bit extra income for us frigate pilots. I'm all for removing them from high-sec / making them exploratoin there only though. |

masty
Gunpoint Diplomacy
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 01:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
+1 please dont remove this excellent source of pvp |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
67
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 02:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Why would you do this?
WHY?
I rarely camp the plexes
But when I do
I drink Dos Equis............. |
|

Miss Carry
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 02:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
By just removing the static DED sites you'd strip non-FW low-sec off a relatively important strategic landmark.
The plex-gates, with it's unique set of rules for warp-ins and the limitations of shipsizes, are very relevant for many of us to enjoy our frigate brawls. Otherwise it's just boring fleetblobs with not much tactics to it.
I have no problem with removing the 2/10s IF they would be replaced with a more sophisticated solution. Placing beacons throughout non-FW low-sec with similar rulesets, different limitations and maybe a reward to earn some ISK. Maybe something similar to FW but static and with it's own set of loyaltypoints towards various npc pirate factions would be just one idea.
Even just a lousy beacon would do the job! Looks boring but better than nothing.
Pariah Carry |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1182
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 03:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
this change looks random to me. I *believe* CCP wanted to workaround the farming where player placed a ship in the last room and killed the faction ship repeatedly. However... as already mentioned the problem only occurs in highsec... no reason to remove them from low too, where they are a nice place for solo pvp. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105
You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Angron Vail
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 03:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:I support OP. Where will I lose ships if you take our 2/10 Heild plex away? Do I really have to post sad ponies to make you change your mind?
He'll do it, i swear ,i seen him. And just take the 1/10 and 2/10 out of high sec, leave the ones in low alone. |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
208
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 03:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
Supported.
The low sec 2/10's are some of the most vibrant pvp areas in EVE. Changing their static status would be a mistake that would kill one of the few hubs of pvp activity in many low sec regions. Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 04:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
I did not see this post so I had started my own, but I would rather just add what I wrote there to here:
This change from the new Dec 4th patch has some serious implications to the lowsec 1v1 and small gang lifestyles in some regions, and being a resident of this community I'd like to point out an unfortunate side effect of this change.
I am totally behind the need for changes to the static plexes, right now someone can camp the final room, wait for the overseer to spawn, grab the loot and then cloak up effectively making it impossible to use. This issue with the game is abused everywhere and more so in highsec where there is minimal to no risk to ones ship.
Now here is my issue. In low sec (in particular I am referring to molden heath low sec) the locals have used these complexes as a great source of continuous PVP. The potential for good payoffs bring people to low security space since the highsec plexes are usually camped, and make it so that people risk ships. It generates a lot of frigate and cruiser pvp outside of factional warfare which is nice if you don't want to be involved in that. The draw is that these sites provide a gate with no gateguns that can very easily be found on the overview. This is attractive to anyone looking for pvp and as a result creates a unique environment in which combat is drawn to these systems where they are located because the first gate acts like a zero ground where everyone must pass through (again only in low sec). So by removing these complexes from the static state and making them be probed down, you are essentially for all intents and purposes making a HUGE reduction in some fairly consistent low sec pvp that many of us love.
Now here is my solution to combat the people who abuse the system and camp the payoff rooms. Firstly, make it so that the payoff room will not spawn the overseers when there are people in that room. This will make camping the room almost pointless. There is a risk here in that someone could cloak up and effectively make the room never spawn when they are AFK greatly affecting the value of the modules that are dropped from these complexes in their favor. To combat this I have two simple suggestions.
1, make it so that all rooms of the complex (except the warp in and first room) will not allow people to activate cloaks (give fancy reason like "intense electromagnetic disturbances are preventing you from activating this module." 2, to fix the issue further, make it so the static complexes are only in low security space. This forces anyone who wants to make what is in all honesty good isk for a small effort put themselves at risk of being engaged in PVP.
Now this is NOT about luring carebears down to lowsec to get killed, so by all means do seed the 1/10 and 2/10 into the exploration profession as well and make it available in both low and high security space, but keep the static plexes that do exist in lowsec alive
I do believe that this will greatly curve the amount of abuse that these complexes currently undergo, while maintaining (and in fact increasing) the amount of PVP that the ones in low security space generate. |

Tialee
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 05:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Angron Vail wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:I support OP. Where will I lose ships if you take our 2/10 Heild plex away? Do I really have to post sad ponies to make you change your mind? He'll do it, i swear ,i seen him. And just take the 1/10 and 2/10 out of high sec, leave the ones in low alone.
Think of the ponies! |

Tavisturus
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 06:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
I would have to agree that taking away the static lowsec plexes would negatively impact pvp in those areas. Please leave them as they are. |

Aliaksandre
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
55
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 07:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Supported...
CCP why do you wish to kill one of the only good things low sec has? |

Ganjjabeard
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
23
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 07:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
Adele Godel wrote:From patch notes: 1/10 and 2/10 static DED complexes have been moved to the exploration system
The static frigate plexes are currently a wonderful place that draws people in for pvp. Please dont change them to the exploration system. Making them no longer static will kill systems like heild, which pretty much has frigates fighting 23/7 on the frigate plex. Right now, in many systems, the frigate plexes are a pvp hotspot. We have enough pve content in the game, there is no need to make the frigate plexes pure pve.
If you want to change something about the plexes, how about equalizing the spawn timers between different factions?
+1 i agree completely. leave our plexs alone ccp! how else are us pirates supposed to make an honest living?! get in the van. |

Altaen
Calamitous-Intent
14
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 07:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vehemently supported. |
|

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
3046
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 07:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Moving all such DED sites to the exploration system has been asked since forever. They're mainly meant to be content for explorers, so it's only natural they use the mechanic designed specifically for this profession. If you feel there should be sites for PvP, ask such sites or use the FW complexes, that are specifically designed for PvP. |

Miura Bull
Hellhawks The Devil's Tattoo
30
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 12:59:00 -
[22] - Quote
Damn. Wish I hadn't spent hours and hours of my time writing guides for two soon to be defunct pvp/pve 'arenas'. Oh well, at least I have a delete button.
This looks like a change that is now set in stone. Which is a shame as a key feature of lowsec life will die with this change. Nice lowsec nerf, well played. |

Dirty Protagonist
Calamitous-Intent
17
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 13:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
the static 2/10s are quite possibly the only thing working in low sec that yields both fun and competitive pvp and a modest yet desirable profit. please please please don't **** this up buttes~ |

Artimis kraw
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 14:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
I support this. Heild wont be the same with this change |

Sir Livingston
Club Deadspace
172
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 14:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Moving all such DED sites to the exploration system has been asked since forever. They're mainly meant to be content for explorers, so it's only natural they use the mechanic designed specifically for this profession. If you feel there should be sites for PvP, ask such sites or use the FW complexes, that are specifically designed for PvP.
Agreed
to quote Dr. Ian Malcolm "No, I'm, I'm simply saying that life, uh... finds a way. "
No worries mr low-sec ded complex fighting dude, you will find a way i make videos about internet spaceships click to watch: http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew
in-game chat channel: Club Deadspace |

Miiis Sweety
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 14:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Can we get a reason why the change? |

Dong Orson
Space Zombie Apocalypse Prevention Department Mountain Sprouts
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 15:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sounds awesome now people will have even less reason to visit low sec, and I can ship spin without being bothered by those pesky kids on my lawn.
Good job ccp, continue on your quest to make low sec pvp a one dimensional sandbox.
May I suggest for your next move be to limit all low sec pvp to faction warfare and then have that only be able to occur inside FW plexes and only then if both partys agree to it.
Can't wait to see your next bit of changes
Sincerely Dong Orson.
|

Nogusha
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 16:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
As a casual player / PvP'er with very limited game time I find this change to be massively detrimental.
Courtesy of the 'plex in Heild I know that, more often than not, when I have the time to log in I can find a fight there in short order to satisfy my itch for FRIGUT BATTALS.
It's rare that I have the time to roam to find things to shoot at. This change makes my chosen path in-game very difficult to walk satisfactorily, and I'm sure I'm not the only one in this particular boat. |

xxxAlloxxx
Calamitous-Intent
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 16:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Support the OP.
CCP I am  Newest Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02OAZ3W0fXs |

Silver Chair
Calamitous-Intent
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 16:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Supported.
Don't **** up low sec frig Pvp CCP!!!! |
|

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
118
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 17:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
It should be noted that the Eve player has a habit of taking a situation and using it in ways unexpected by its original implementation.
The use of static DED complexes in low sec as points to for small gang fighting are such a thing. Entire communities have built up around these areas due to their resources. The communities may not be as large as others in the game but they are there, they are rather static in a transient part of the game and they are tightly knit with history and events.
Replacement with Faction Warfare complexes are not the answer. Something similar was static DED complexes. These are not complexes where anyone is making billions of ISK. Due to the nature of low security space and the habitual occupation of any system containing a static complex camping of these sites is stopped by the local residents. Such an action is something that CCP seems to want to happen.
As it has been pointed out, ISK generation does come from these sites. Nothing insane or crazy. To do the site is to take on the risk of the locals coming looking for action.
So we had both income and PvP in low security space. They also stand for being very entry level PvP due to the restricted nature of the gates. Residents of low sec love frigates as much as any other group. However, we have had to take a more adaptable solution to satiate our thirst for small ship fights. Instead of petitioning CCP to... I don't know... change everything in the game to suit us we instead learned to be flexible and work with the resources that had been given to us.
Sadly, that resource is being taken away.
We are often not as vocal a community as we need to be. Our numbers are small and our social structure fiercely independent. The side effect of that is our opinion is often known among ourselves but not outside of our little community. In this I can only hope that the actual residents of low security space are heard in this matter. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Crevo Helion
Lutinari Syndicate Electus Matari
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 18:24:00 -
[32] - Quote
I support keeping them as they are. |

Adele Godel
The Spawning Pool Team Liquid
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 18:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
Crevo Helion wrote:I support keeping them as they are.
Pirates and anti-pirates agreeing on something.
Obviously its a good idea. |

Swifty Blowback
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 19:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
By all means remove them from high sec as they're just camped 23/7. But please leave them as they are in low sec. They're a great source of cheap 1v1 pvp.
|

Alex Medvedov
Gunpoint Diplomacy
23
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 22:21:00 -
[35] - Quote
I support keeping them as they are - those plexes are one of not many things which are supporting solo/small gang PVP in lowsec! |

Arasul
Gunpoint Diplomacy
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 22:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
Supported.
Whoever thought up this stupid idea has obviously never experienced or investigated or even asked anyone about the thing they planned to change.
Please leave the plexes alone. |

Ava Starfire
Gradient Electus Matari
458
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 22:51:00 -
[37] - Quote
I support keeping them as is.
They are a great place to find frigate scale PVP, and make certain systems hotbeds of fun. It isnt like they crank isk into the system, and it isnt like anything found in them is that valuable.
Want to stop farmers? Make the plex kickout 5 minutes after it is cleared. Problem solved.
CCP seems to be waging war on frigate combat; why you guys hate us so much? |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
26
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 22:55:00 -
[38] - Quote
I have built my entire EVE Piracy career centred around a 2/10 in lowsec, five years of some of the most fun and rewarding PvP in this sandbox game of yours. Traps, counter traps, log ons & log offskis, mass brawls and epic 1v1s. Russian ISK farmers, Chinese ISK farmers, PvPers, Pirates, newbies, lowbies, nullsec warriors, carebears and everything in between have come to them to seek their fortune, in these bastions of small ship PvP.
As has been said, entire communities have sprung up, using the sandbox tools you gave us to make our universe rock... And now you want to take it away?
|

defins
BuBu Corp
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 22:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
eve started with small gangs and 1vs1 pvp.. these low secs plexes are the reminders of those days, let them be ! |

M4iden
Bigger than Jesus
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 22:58:00 -
[40] - Quote
seriously! dont touch them! why would you want to ruin the fun and casual fun people can have there? for the mass? |
|

Ashnazg
Pins and Needles
76
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 23:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Worst change that could happen to them. Leave them be! Blog: White Knights and Manly Explosions |

Simvastatin Montelukast
Unh0ly Union Mountain Sprouts
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 23:24:00 -
[42] - Quote
Seriously,
Everyday I see 1 v 1 pvp action in these. Don't change them!!
|

3D Horrorshow
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 23:25:00 -
[43] - Quote
Supported.
These 2/10's are the base for a community built on small ship PvP.
Players have created something unique and fun here, so what if that wasn't the original intention, I thought that was the point of the sandbox. CCP couldn't have designed a better way to get frigs in the same place for a fight, why not take what the players have done and expand upon it. (heh, better idea, leave it be) |

Damikin
Nehalem Baconators
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 23:26:00 -
[44] - Quote
The 1/10 and 2/10 sites are what first got me into low sec, and then became the locations where i became decent at PvP. Please keep these static in low sec! The frigate fights are wonderful there! |

Xylorn Hasher
Sumiyoshi-Kai
52
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 23:42:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP don't touch static plexes!!
Many people goes there just for fair frigate fights. All my posts are made shortly after Marihuana-áconsumption. |

CainAU3
Cain's Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 00:03:00 -
[46] - Quote
Removing statics in highsec is a good idea. Removing statics in lowsec is a bad idea. Please only remove them from highsec. |

Bodb Derg
Red Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 00:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
Don't remove them. C'mon CCP ... do this for us. It's almost Christmas after all!! |

Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 00:48:00 -
[48] - Quote
Agreed. Leave the damn things alone.
If you MUST make a change, pull the highsec ones and leave the lowsec ones in place. As several have said previously, they make nice PvP spots.
|

ako ako
Sonoran Sun Legion Legio Damnata
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 03:09:00 -
[49] - Quote
Agree with OP and all others in this forum: leave the low-sec statics in place as these create a great place for small ship PVP and earning opportunites outside of FW in low-sec.
Silly silly idea to remove them! I was looking forward to using the new logi and ewar frigs in and around these plex's to introduce newer guys to those roles but now . . . . |

Icantspellwell
Muppet Factory Northern Coalition.
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 03:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
Completely agree. Static 2/10's are one of the most competitive areas for some good frigate/destroyer pvp. DO NOT SCREW THIS GOOD SYSTEM UP CCP. |
|

Crazy Vania
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 03:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
CCP, with your tiericide, you are making all the tech 1 frigates awesome. By removing the Lvl1 and lvl2 DED complexes, you are removing the best playground these same frigates have to prove their worth and make their name.
Please don't do it :(
|

Crazy Vania
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 03:56:00 -
[52] - Quote
edit: double post. |

diazz69
F.I.S.C.O.
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 03:58:00 -
[53] - Quote
+1 |

Capt Starfox
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 04:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
Please don't remove, destroy, obliterate, erase, delete, shut down, end, kill them don't!!!!!!!!!!!!! |

Mane Frehm
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 04:30:00 -
[55] - Quote
I fully support the request to CCP to cease and desist. I have rarely used them, but I know many who do.
I'd also like to understand how it is that a change like this is showing up in the patch notes just a few days before the release. Where is the dev blog? Where was the consultation?
Paging the CSM....... |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
23
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 04:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
Mane Frehm wrote:I'd also like to understand how it is that a change like this is showing up in the patch notes just a few days before the release. Where is the dev blog? Where was the consultation?[/b]
Paging the CSM.......
Yeah, I did not see anything on this until the patch notes myself. |

Naoru Kozan
The Tuskers
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 07:00:00 -
[57] - Quote
Please keep the static plexs in lowsec. They are a great source of income for newer players AND a great spot for small scale cheap pvp. |

Kooba Kaundur
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 08:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
Don't change the static plexes in low, please! |

Naughty Cargo
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 09:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
Oh please don't get rid of the plexes. Here I am a month and a half in about to get into an awesome corp and you're taking out one of the easiest and most convenient ways to get pvp fights? And how else are us pirates gonna get income as well? Its a stupid idea I tell ya. Please don't :( |

Benito Arias
Lutinari Syndicate Electus Matari
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 09:42:00 -
[60] - Quote
+1, surely static 1/10s and 2/10s in lowsec need not to be removed! Creating obstacles to farming them would be cool. |
|

Johnny Twelvebore
The Tuskers
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 10:55:00 -
[61] - Quote
Adding the name of yet another low sec resident to this list, lowsec really gets the short straw most of the time as we don't have have the high profile of null or high.
These things are gold, you should put more in rather than take them away.. |

Fulgin Jet
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 11:30:00 -
[62] - Quote
by all means remove them from hi-sec if they are causing issues, but they are a great sources of frigate PvP in low-sec.
Don't remove these complexes form low-sec, please. |

Melissa Forethought
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 11:31:00 -
[63] - Quote
I also support the demand to keep these complexes in low-sec. |

Tung Yoggi
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Northern Coalition.
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 11:42:00 -
[64] - Quote
Supported.
I'll have almost no reason to cruise lowsec with a frigate after this change.
They bring activity , fights, isk in remote systems, lowsec islands, non FW systems etc. FW should not be the only way to frigate pvp and 'arenas' with restricted ship classes.
Of course, there are some systems where chilling in top belt is a good way to duke it out, but seriously, how many ?
Rewarding the explorator is cool, but why remove a popular pvp option at the same time ? |

Jean Kane
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Northern Coalition.
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 12:30:00 -
[65] - Quote
I support this demand.
Don't remove low plexes ! |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 13:04:00 -
[66] - Quote
Would CCP please grace us with an answer to this question: why would you decide to do this without releasing it in a devblog? Because this is actually quite a big deal. |

Jon Marburg
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
37
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 13:28:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP why must you ruin good things? Leave low-sec static plexs alone. They are excellent focal points for the occasional frigate brawl and one of the few places you can expect to meet frigates aside from stations and gates. |

CraftyCroc
Gunpoint Diplomacy
57
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 13:59:00 -
[68] - Quote
Supported - not sure who did this change but maybe they should play the game a bit more |

Arianne Stone
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 14:20:00 -
[69] - Quote
Supported. The plexes are so important to low sec small ship pvp. CCP seems to be doing little to support non-FW low sec dwellers, hopefully they'll realise that this is a bad idea and not make things worse. |

Angelus Ryan
Ama Nesciri.
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 14:30:00 -
[70] - Quote
Ouch.
Jesus.
CCP, you really want to nuke one of the last places for solo and very small scale, fun and inexpensive PvP in EVE, and turn it into another type of exploration PvE? Really?
Move all highsec static plexes to lowsec, creating more spots for frigate-sized PvP in lowsec and increasing the number of people who would like to visit otherwise empty systems. It will also solve all of your farming troubles (the highsec static plexes suck, totally).
Don't do this. Just. Please. Don't. |
|

Hitego Luna
Minmatar United Freedom Front The 11th Hour Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 14:36:00 -
[71] - Quote
CCP should NOT move DED 1 and 2 sites to the exploration system. There are not enough "sight seeing" land marks to draw people into lowsec and nullsec as-is. Why remove a motivator to get players to enter PVP zones?
Sure this makes flying new buffed scan frigates relatively more valuable, but you are then degrading the fun factor of ALL frigates that noobs, and even year old or older pilots like myself fly to these zones.
This game is lacking in small but meaningful pvp encounters. Lots of players enjoy these spots given that they are accessible in any frigate for small risk, pvp, as well as the chance for a small reward. If the motivation is to prevent farming: the key here is the material reward is small, but since it is often a random deadspace item it feels unique.
There are FAR larger sources of bounties and items that provide FAR less interesting interaction than the on-map DED locations.
|

Logan Fyreite
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 14:46:00 -
[72] - Quote
Please leave the plexes in lowsec alone. If this change is to address a problem in HIGHSEC, make the change to HIGHSEC and not just another universal blanket change made without thought our regard for the way it will and could detrimentally change other parts of the game. Specifically lowsec. It can't be that difficult to leave the ones in lowsec alone while still changing the ones in highsec.
CCP please, take note here and make this change, saving an important and vibrant part of lowsec. |

Lijja Cuu
Dred Nots
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 14:53:00 -
[73] - Quote
CCP
Do not change this system. The systems containing static plexes are the beating heart of pvp in lowsec.
Don't derp this up!!! |

Eruthian Hawk
Smutjes Revenge
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 15:03:00 -
[74] - Quote
Reason might be the highsec afk farmers. Then delete the sites in highsec I`m okay with that. But keep them in lowsec. Evil Piwats will take care of the farmers  And while there are no Afk lol farmers in the last pocket, the rest can have fun in frigatte massacres at the site entry. Don`t derp this sites out of lowsec! |

Tomba
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 15:31:00 -
[75] - Quote
Supported.
Leave the low sec sites as they are. (And add many more of them!)
24 7 fights and fun at some of these sites and if for any reason no one's there, then you have a chance for a small reward if you run it....why patch fun and fights out of the game?
Add new content - don't remove working content!
if this is about camping - then fix the camping. You don't amputate someone's head cos they got lice... you get rid of the lice.
-Tomba |

Cassius Clayy
Dred Nots
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 16:20:00 -
[76] - Quote
+1
! |

Ava Starfire
Gradient Electus Matari
460
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 17:02:00 -
[77] - Quote
CCP, you there?
Want to throw us a bone here?
The frigate community in EVE (read-everyone in this thread) has a solid grasp of what is and is not good for us. Seriously, you introduce the alt-farmer-dream that is the new FW plex system, and then want to remove static plexes? Why?
Some idea of what problem/issue this is supposed to resolve/fix would be appreciated.
Thanks, Ava |

Dilium
Diltech
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 18:51:00 -
[78] - Quote
Making them pure pve is just wrong, find another way to prevent farming that doesnt hurt their role as pvp hotspot.
I do see the problem with people farming them, sitting cloaked in last room waiting for overseer to spawn, but putting them under exploration system would be bad for pvp. |

panterus29
Blame The Bunny The Dark Nation
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 20:00:00 -
[79] - Quote
i support this product/idea and/or its affiliated products/ideas <--happy |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3408
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 20:07:00 -
[80] - Quote
OP Supported. I'm sorry you haven't heard from the CSM sooner on this, but frankly I was blindsided by this change just as you were, the first I knew of this was the patchnotes.
To explain how I feel about this situation - let me first tell you a story. Before we joined Late Night Alliance, Autocannons Anonymous had been living in the Gulmorogod constellation, with our base at the TLF station in Lulm. Our friends in Late Night fleets always like to crack jokes about us living there of all places (and away from the front lines between Kourmonen and Kamela), but what they overlooked was the value of the Angel Creo-Corp Mining site, not only in terms of farmable loot but in terms of the fights we could farm as well. (Though I still curse myself for literally recycling all those faction remote reps for minerals over the time we lived there now that we have logi frigates!).
Much like FW complexes, static DED sites are tremendous havens for small gang and solo PvP, and entire cultures spring up around them - from rivalries between ace pilots who live there permanently, to roaming gangs that follow regular routes visiting these sites, to corps like mine that relocated based on the existence of one of these in a convenient location. They are a valuable part of the low-sec "terrain", and much as eliminating agent quality killed what may seem like arbitrary variety, EVE's space is essentially drifting towards being more and more homogenous and having fewer and fewer chokepoints for conflict and piracy.
I couldn't begin to tell you why this decision was made, because CCP didn't discuss it with the CSM. That's not to say it can't be reversed, but obviously its not going to happen before Dec. 4. Needless to say I have as many questions as you do and luckily I have the opportunity to do so face-to-face a week from now in Iceland. I'll do my best to get to the bottom of this, thank you for your patience in the meantime. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
|

Rixx Javix
The Tuskers
260
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 20:14:00 -
[81] - Quote
Supported.
This change makes no sense and hurts the quality of an already struggling low-sec environment.
This is making me angry and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry!  http://eveoganda.blogspot.com |

Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
2089
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 20:30:00 -
[82] - Quote
Cripes, CCP, this is dumb. Yet another thing to ~discuss~ at the summit.   CSM 7 Chairman My Blog - Where I say stuff Follow Seleene on Twitter! |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3408
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 20:30:00 -
[83] - Quote
Rixx Javix wrote:Supported. This change makes no sense and hurts the quality of an already struggling low-sec environment. This is making me angry and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry! 
....Photoshop will be wielded for GRET JUSTISS FOR ALL TEIM
BRING BACK THE KILLS!! 
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|

The Protato
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
97
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 20:48:00 -
[84] - Quote
IB4 Awarmingcoat's spluttering, red-faced arrival. |

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
814
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 20:49:00 -
[85] - Quote
I can see why CCP would want all the DED on the same page and would want to put more content into exploration. There was a similar consequence when the 0.0 static complexes went away into exploration.
But it is a kick in the pants of lowsec, especially to small ship PVP. That I don't like one bit. "Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart."-á -Arydanika, Voices from the Void
CSM7 rep, CSM 4 vet Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |

Korvus Falek
Suicides-R-Us BricK sQuAD.
17
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 20:52:00 -
[86] - Quote
+1
I like 2/10s. |

Angron Vail
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 20:56:00 -
[87] - Quote
ok then, taking away the plexes seems to be inevitable, so now in my boredom 10 miners will die everyday till this is fixed. |

The Protato
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
97
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 20:58:00 -
[88] - Quote
Angron Vail wrote:ok then, taking away the plexes seems to be inevitable, so now in my boredom 10 miners will die everyday till this is fixed.
Oh no, not the miners... Heaven forbid the miners get hurt...  |

Jeanne Hurt
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 21:03:00 -
[89] - Quote
Lets move astroidbelts and stations into exploration content aswell, i hear players make isk in there to. And ignore all those pirates whining about their center of existence beeing removed. They have no lobby anyway.
*pro nonstatic everything.* |

Angron Vail
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 21:05:00 -
[90] - Quote
The Protato wrote:Angron Vail wrote:ok then, taking away the plexes seems to be inevitable, so now in my boredom 10 miners will die everyday till this is fixed. Oh no, not the miners... Heaven forbid the miners get hurt... 
But when carebears cry stuff changes.
But seriuosly, We should do something spectacular to say good bye to our beloved plex's |
|

Chigurh Friendo
Dred Nots
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 21:11:00 -
[91] - Quote
I think Sugar Kyle said it best. For reasons relating to the preservation of a unique element of low-sec PvP, I support the OP's position.
Having formally stated my position, I'll nonetheless concede that this system needs an overhaul. Regarding the hi-sec portion, I acknowledge that this content needs to be removed and/or incorporated into the revamped exploration system.
Regarding the PvE aspect of the low-sec portion, I think that the sites are reasonably high reward relative to almost no effort invested. Sites can be blitzed in as little as 5-10 minutes, and the drops are consistently valued at upwards of 20M on the market. Furthermore, the nature of the demand for the items dropped is relatively inflexible, given that some of the modules routinely dropped are among the best frigate-sized modules available in the game... and 'elite' PvPers in EVE demonstrate an uncanny tolerance for costs provided they are giving themselves the maximum threshold of module performance possible (i.e. 'elite' links, 'elite' faction mods, 'elite' boosters, etc.). In other words, this PvE content 'breaks' the supposed 'risk vs. reward' model that CCP is (was?) shooting for. People who routinely farm these sites for profit will either camp alts in the systems in question (especially the low-traffic station-system ones) and then run the site on a timer, since the respawn timing is well-known and predictable. An alternative and similar method I've seen is for people to low-sec system jump around so that they can run each of the sites as they come out of their respawn timer. This method is obviously more risky, but given the precision of respawn and the access restrictions between rooms (without the appropriate keys) the risk is greatly mitigated (again breaking the supposed model). The other 'farmer' type that I'm aware of is the individual who purges the site of NPCs and then sits in the last room after claiming the reward. Risk is again mitigated by the broken inter-room gate-key restriction access model, and these individuals will either go so far as to sit hundreds of kilometers off of the final room landing beacon or they will remain in the site cloaked.
Overall, the farming of PvE content in these static sites is broken. Whereas the first 'offender' is conceivably possible to catch, the window-of-opportunity is incredibly small (exacerbated by gate access restrictions between rooms). The second 'offender' is also possible to catch... most likely involving gate-camps (since these players are predictable and operate on timers) or maybe simultaneous warp-ins... though, again, the window of opportunity is very small. Ironically, I'd say that the third 'offender' type is the easiest to catch, since these players tend to be the most lazy, incompetent, and complacent farmer of the bunch. Often, these players rest assured in 'knowing' that the gates are locked since they were the ones to grab the inter-room gate-keys... In doing so, many of them will blatantly sit AFK in the final room. The fact that this type of gaming behaviour conceivably represents the 'optimal' method of farming behaviour underscores just how broken this PvE content is.
Having ranted and rambled about the poor implementation of PvE content that the static DED complexes represent, let me finally underscore the reasons why I am in favour of keeping this content in the game (within lowsec). For one thing, I don't think it 'hurts' to allow would-be farmers and/or pirates to farm these sites as described provided that this occurs strictly within lowsec. That is, each farming behaviour I've described represents an 'opportunity for player interaction' in the form of either competing for scarce resources and/or engaging in PvP combat. More importantly, however, the static DED plex beacons and gates represent a 'sandbox battleground' that has emerged (emergent gameplay) in lowsec piracy communities. The combination of a clearly dscannable static beacon that imposes warp-in and tactical-warp restrictions creates a unique environment for PvP combat. Indeed, one of the only places that someone can hope to take on an overwhelming number of opposing players (without strictly outclassing their combat vessels) is through careful flying on the pre-entry gate-grid.
Well, hopefully that provides a comprehensive perspective on this issue. If you've made it this far, then thanks for reading. |

Seraph Minayin
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc. Monkeys with Guns.
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 21:36:00 -
[92] - Quote
Posting to support.
1/10s and 2/10s are great places to find frigate fights currently.
Please don't remove them CCP! My blog on EVE-áhttp://seraph-minayin.blogspot.com/ |

Mane Frehm
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 22:56:00 -
[93] - Quote
Pleased to see the response from 3 CSM members; saddened (but not surprised) by the fact that this change came out of tthe blue (or whatever viking colour inspired it).
Being a positive fellow...this is an opportunity for CCP:
a) to acknowledge that this was a mistake and will be reversed (sooner rather than later) b) to recognize that much of what happens in game and how game mechanics are used is not obvious and that CCP needs to understand the true impact of any proposed change before announcing/making it, and c) use the various consultation mechanics available to them for all proposed changes, not just some propsed changes
|

Seliah Aldard
Red Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 02:04:00 -
[94] - Quote
+1
These things really are the lifeblood of some of the lowsec regions |

Eta Monakh
Frequent Flyers Redrum Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 04:26:00 -
[95] - Quote
+1 , just to add one more vote onto the landslide: removing static plexes is stupid beyond comprehension. It about wipes out all the goodwill I can muster for Retribution.
And that is coming from hi-sec carebear industrialist.
Removing the static DED complexes removes yet one more motivation for hi-sec'ers to venture into lo-sec - not to mention the loss of motivation for the Explorers in the player base.
While personally I'd like to be hi-sec :perfectlysafe: (*duh*), I know that the spice of the game comes from the _necessity_ to venture into dangerous areas - in this case: lo-sec.
If anything, New Eden needs more static entities in lo-sec to fight over and take informal(!) ownership of, not fewer. |

Nik Domar
Acerbus Vindictum Stealth Wear Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 04:55:00 -
[96] - Quote
Change like this is very unfortunate. I have fought in those 2/10 plexes many times and I recognize many people who has responded to this thread from those plexes.
These complexes had unique ability to gather frigate/destroyer size PvPers to fight over small prize or just to have a place where combat could happen without interference of larger ships. Main problem of these sites have been related to PvE side of the complex and resulted in complex farming
While trying to fix the PvE side problem, the PvP side of the complex is getting totally ignored. Many non-FW regions do not have any other unique complexes like these for small ship PvP.
Easy solution for this would be to reverse the change and put these complexes back they used to be along with all of their little problems, but maybe there is alternative.
There could be new lowsec feature, where previous issues of these sites would be fixed and their advantages boosted. There are multiple things to take into consideration here
First of all reward of the site should be decent enough to be worth fighting over. If max reward is too low, players won't be as much encouraged to run the site and fight over the loot. If DED loot is going to stay in original 1/10 and 2/10 complexes, something else should be considered here.
PvE opposition could be something like new faction warfare NPC opposition as PvE opposition shouldn't interfere with PvP. Reward should also be non-farmable, so access to the site wouldn't require key to enter and the reward dropping mechanism wouldn't be accessible by just cloaking and waiting for container to drop/structure to spawn/npc to spawn.
Location of the site should be just little bit dynamic. Sites should still be in same system for decent amount of time (let's say up to one week). After time has passed, complex would despawn and respawn somewhere else in same region. Also entry to site itself using acceleration gate could be diffirent, to prevent anyone camping entry point with ships, such as instalock legion/loki, to give better access to site and possible fight with similar sized ships for everyone.
These complexes could also be spawned into areas where there has not been previously 1/10 or 2/10 complexes to farm, but total number should be kept low, to keep reward value high and PvPers more concentrated to certain areas.
Even if this sounds small problem for some of the players, for lowsec people who actually live and fight in the systems where these complexes are located, it is actually very important part of their daily PvP. I really hope something will get done to return or replace old complexes. |

Heribeck Weathers
Plausible Deniability.
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 05:01:00 -
[97] - Quote
Ok As a frequent visitor of the plex in Heild i am angry about this, R1ita practiacaly LIVE in that plex and are always a fun fight. CCP you best think real hard about removing these from low sec, we pirates are fewer in number but we get a ton of blog readers and have our amount of sway. |

Akamira Hayate
Smutjes Revenge
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 07:11:00 -
[98] - Quote
Those DED Sites, I really will miss them if CCP really wants to kill them. I had some of my best fights in those sites. Never I will forget the engagement vs a jaguar of an elder player with my very first, poor skilled and somehow poor fitted sentinel which ended in a three minute nightmare of capmanagement in deep structure. On the pve side those DED gave me my path in eve. From highsec treasurehunter to DED ninja in highsec finally to pvp in lowsec. In my opinion, for a solo pilote the risk/rewar of those sites was never too high at least in the lowsec sites. Just enough to keep a stock of t1/t2 Frigattes and maybe cruisers alive over the month. Well it`s long time ago when I was in highsec last time but last I noticed about DEDs was the increase of afk farmers. Few months ago I first realized them being in lowsec aswell in cloakys. To be honest the game mechanic of those DED never was the best. Rats were to be handled easy, respawn always in the same cycletime. But lowsec DEDs regulate themself thanks to the existence of Lowsecbrothers and smallscale pvp. The cloakys might be difficult to catch but it`s possible. Otherwise some anti cloaking zone int his sites would help to eliminate the farmer issue in the same way like simply delete statics and add them to Exploration.
Be true to yourself CCP, you just choosed the cheapest and easiest solution without thinking about negative consequences. We mostly appreciate your fight vs farmingexploits. But your choosen solution is just another kick in the balls of lowsec culture.
Delete them in highsec and add them to exploration contents there, but KEEP the statics in lowsec, really! Don`t remove static lowsec DEDs!
|

Toshi Zawa
Mentally Unstable Enterprises Drunk 'n' Disorderly
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 09:01:00 -
[99] - Quote
I support this too. Plexes have been a key focal point of solo/small gang PVP. Taking it out of low-sec is detrimental to this. |

Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
14
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 12:11:00 -
[100] - Quote
First it was E-Uni and now CCP ruining the fun. Is there someone to war dec now?
*support* |
|

NorthCrossroad
EVE University Ivy League
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 14:30:00 -
[101] - Quote
Removing those static plexes from high-sec might be ok, since those plexes are camped 23.5/7. But in low-sec it is a totally different story. If you do not like that people get too high payout for those static plexes - you can reduce it somewhat (one more time). Fine. But really, keep those plexes around.
It is an abvious move to push people towards faction warfare, but in reality a lot of us do not want to participate in FW to have some small-ship PvP. And those plexes were always a center of gravity for such activities.
North |

Zenver
AfterMath. Broken Toys
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 15:01:00 -
[102] - Quote
As someone who has had numerous fun pvp engagements in such plexes I support the OP's points.
Please reconsider removing these unique eve locations. Homogenizing the game and doing 'clean up' is all well and good, but it's nice to leave a few things behind. Even if only so the older players can point them out to noobies and say 'I remember when...' |

NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
52
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 15:43:00 -
[103] - Quote
Please replace them with PVP arenas. I know you can do this CCP. Or have the fw npcs not shoot unaligned characters so we can fight there. |

Frood Frooster
EVE University Ivy League
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 15:54:00 -
[104] - Quote
Static plexes in lowsec serve a great PvP purpose because they are a) static and b) hold loot that is valuable enough to fight about it.
Static plexes in highsec serve the purpose of showing brand new players NPC combat besides missions. It works this way: new players sees beacon, wonders what it is and learns about exploration that way.
Therefore I would: - keep the 1/10 plexes static in highsec and replace the 2/10 plexes in highsec with 1/10 plexes. - keep the 2/10 plexes static in lowsec and replace the 1/10 plexes in lowsec with 2/10 plexes.
|

turlough dominian
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 16:21:00 -
[105] - Quote
bad ccp , bad ccp :D
+1 for not removeing
the guys who posted befor me have a valid point pow pow |

Maleficas
Repo.
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 16:25:00 -
[106] - Quote
+1 |

Damay Aprionati
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 17:41:00 -
[107] - Quote
Don't do it. You guys are dicks.  |

CoiledVipers
Calamitous-Intent
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 18:23:00 -
[108] - Quote
I sincerely hope this change doesn't get made. It's already difficult enough for new players or even old players to find small scale pvp in affordable ships. This change is just farting on the people |

San Fransisco
Silver Falcon Survey
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 20:43:00 -
[109] - Quote
I have never been to a lowsec DED plex but from what I have seen in this thread and http://lowseclifestyle.blogspot.com/ on this blog, I can see why it is a problem that they are being removed. Had I known that these plexes were a good way to have throttled low cost PvP I would have joined in before now.
I would like to suggest a possible solution to this problem that could appeal to the pirate crowd as well as fit in to the story of eve.
Lets say, for story reasons, that the DED Plexes were cleaned up once and for all by CONCORD. Hence their removal at the start of Retribution. Well wouldn't the pirate factions have responded somehow.
I propose that an agent in space, representing the corporation of the local rats, be added to the system that once held the static plex. The agent could offer missions into the old dead-space pocket to recover the random macguffin. The new/old complex would have the same ship restrictions as are currently being utilized to throttle the PVP. I think it would be a good way to add some pirate themed PvE so that players could blow up some CONCORD ships and gain standing with a Pirate corp without needing to go all the way to null-sec
This way the reward for going to the site would still be there but the "farming" would be no worse than at any other agent.
Obviously leaving them untouched is a viable solution as well but this one might appeal to the story/roleplay folks |

Sizemore Gnaaa
SizeSwarm
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 21:18:00 -
[110] - Quote
when i was a few month old, a more experieneced guys send me to a system formation with 2/10 plexes. iused to learn more about things people call pvp.
after i was shoot 9 times, i archived my first solo kill and a few sometimes less solo ones follwed those plexes made it possible for me to pay my losses and grow into pvp
please dont remove em, they are great for young players!
|
|

Miura Bull
Hellhawks The Devil's Tattoo
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 21:23:00 -
[111] - Quote
So it appears that these things are farmed extensively in highsec at no risk. The fix for that would be to remove them. That's what is clearly happening and for the most part we would agree that this highsec farming isn't good at whatever level. Okay, we can live with that.
But the lowsec ones are a different breed altogether.
The lowsec ones are like beacons to whole communities, people build corporations and their entire game time around them and by removing them from lowsec you will see once vibrant systems become ghost towns. This will either be from people moving somewhere else which isn't that bad in the long term or it could be from people who once enjoyed a part of the game to simply not play any more because their community and play style has disappeared overnight. Some might say that's a far-fetched claim but I do feel some people do feel that strongly about them.
They're also used as waypoint markers for roams. I don't think I'd have ever started roaming lowsec systems if it wasn't for my planned DED complex routes and waypoints. The fights I would find there kept me interested in this game in the early days and I dare say if they weren't there I'd probably be playing something else right now. What will draw the next nooby frigate pilot who wants to venture into lowsec to keep subscribing?
To an extent the lowsec complexes can be farmed as well. A simple fix for this would be to make it impossible to remain in the last room after shooting the structure. Instead make it so they have to start again in the first room with full timers. I will guarantee you that they would not be so keen on farming them if they had to start in the first room again. 
tl;dr remove highsec ones yes. lowsec ones need to remain but need the mechanics tweaking. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
383
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 22:53:00 -
[112] - Quote
You would think that after 6 pages of every single person saying this is a bad change, a dev would pop in here and say "oops, our bad, its going to be reverted" or "lolno, we hate lowsec and want you to suffer" or SOMETHING |

Miiis Sweety
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 22:59:00 -
[113] - Quote
What are you replacing the plexes with that generates as much pvp fun?
Seriously, give Low Sec back some love, not ripe it from our hearts! |

Taoi Khan
Unh0ly Union Mountain Sprouts
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 23:04:00 -
[114] - Quote
How about some info, some hints, Dev blogs, something before such a major change has to be done.
Where are the CSM Comments? Where is the public discourse?
Have you learned nothing from Jita burning?
Get people in Low Sec, not bore them to death.
GET A CLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 23:22:00 -
[115] - Quote
Taoi Khan wrote:How about some info, some hints, Dev blogs, something before such a major change has to be done.
Where are the CSM Comments? Where is the public discourse?
Have you learned nothing from Jita burning?
Get people in Low Sec, not bore them to death.
GET A CLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Check the previous pages and give the post a read from the beginning, the CSM are aware of this (or at least some of its members are) and were just as shocked as the rest of us.
But yeah, I do agree with you, some recognition from CCP would be VERY much appreciated given the magnitude of what they are proposing to do with some of the most lively PVP arenas in low sec. Issue is the people who this affects the most often can't go to Jita to protest due to our security status, so we might need to resort to mass ganking of mining barges and Orcas in high sec to recruit the miners to our cause. :P |

Didona Carpenito
Akimamur Industries
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 23:31:00 -
[116] - Quote
I live in low sec. I make profits off selling to the people who get killed in the lower plexes and pvp in the local area. Why am i being penalized for this low sec nerf?
I will never go to null sec, nor high sec.
CCP, be like doctors and do no harm, don't take my profits away from me!!! |

Ardaeik Marconea
Akimamur Industries
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 23:44:00 -
[117] - Quote
Ok I'm a bitter old vet but one of the reasons I like this game is there is so much to do. But slowly bit by bit its getting homogenized and the more one thing is like the next the more older players like me will give up on the game as there is nothing new to do. CCP keep the variety in the game and stop this dull boxing up into nice little easy packets. If people want to frigate pvp give them more than faction warfare to do it in these site are focus point for some players some make isk from them and other do their best to riun the others day THATS what Eve is all about |

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
41
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 00:06:00 -
[118] - Quote
This is a disaster. This is one of the few things in low-sec that actually work. I can't stress enough how important this is to low-sec denizens! |

Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1208
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 00:37:00 -
[119] - Quote
I actually find this sort of amusing. Many times it has been suggested that there should be combat arenas in Eve, areas protected by gates that filter by ship type and allow for free combat within. Every time its suggested the cry goes out:
"NO!!!!!! It will kill PvP and Eve will turn into WoW and die!"
Now it turns out that PvE content is being re-purposed for these exact arenas, and its removal is causing complaints!
+1 for areas allowing for frig only or cruiser and below only combat. Either the DED complexes, or just an empty area protected by a gate. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |

Gwydion Voleur
Anarchic Exploration
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 00:38:00 -
[120] - Quote
Supported. Keep the statics in lowsec. |
|

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
123
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 01:27:00 -
[121] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I actually find this sort of amusing. Many times it has been suggested that there should be combat arenas in Eve, areas protected by gates that filter by ship type and allow for free combat within. Every time its suggested the cry goes out:
"NO!!!!!! It will kill PvP and Eve will turn into WoW and die!"
Now it turns out that PvE content is being re-purposed for these exact arenas, and its removal is causing complaints!
+1 for areas allowing for frig only or cruiser and below only combat. Either the DED complexes, or just an empty area protected by a gate.
To often people suggest arenas as single instances where honorable 1v1 PvP can not be visited by a third party. That is what people are against. Then they add in score boards and suddenly arena fighting is a thing.
Also the plexs do provide income in low sec but they are not camped like the high sec ones. Only a few systems away from Heild there is a 2/10 static in a high sec pocket that always has a random camped in it. End that not this. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
211
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 05:51:00 -
[122] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:I actually find this sort of amusing. Many times it has been suggested that there should be combat arenas in Eve, areas protected by gates that filter by ship type and allow for free combat within. Every time its suggested the cry goes out:
"NO!!!!!! It will kill PvP and Eve will turn into WoW and die!"
Now it turns out that PvE content is being re-purposed for these exact arenas, and its removal is causing complaints!
+1 for areas allowing for frig only or cruiser and below only combat. Either the DED complexes, or just an empty area protected by a gate. To often people suggest arenas as single instances where honorable 1v1 PvP can not be visited by a third party. That is what people are against. Then they add in score boards and suddenly arena fighting is a thing. Also the plexs do provide income in low sec but they are not camped like the high sec ones. Only a few systems away from Heild there is a 2/10 static in a high sec pocket that always has a random camped in it. End that not this.
Yeah Sugar Kyle makes a good point.
What most players in EVE aren't against are "arena's" themselves. But arenas organised and implemented by CCP. The beauty of EVE is the freedom of it. If a large alliance or corporation wanted to set up an arena in their home system with severe rule restrictions, then they are perfectly free to do that as long as they can defend it from people who will try to grief it or use it to fish for kills. In fact alliances have held tournaments like this in null sec before.
This is similar to the 2/10 static plexes. They do have ship restrictions for the internal part of the plex, but they are not some forced arena that is coded into the game. If some corp wanted to they could quite easily come down to Heild and camp the entrance gate 24/7 with insta-locking t3's and an army of guardians, and shut down the frigate brawling entirely. Then it would be up to the residents of Heild and Molden Heath to fight back and force the campers out or move on and find another spot.
It's entirely different from a CCP supported arena that is coded into the game.
Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Xi 'xar
The Tuskers
33
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 10:46:00 -
[123] - Quote
Supported.
1 & 2/10 plexes ftw. http://reduplication.wordpress.com/category/explore-low-sec/ http://reduplication.wordpress.com/category/live-low-sec/ http://mrsnypes.blogspot.com/2010/07/burnt-lands.html
|

Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
160
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 10:55:00 -
[124] - Quote
These static 2/2 plexes are much fun and they attract a lot of PVP. Please don't remove them. If you really want to do something good, then make it so that they can't be farmed that easily. For example: the final room should only be accessible once per character and day. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
386
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 11:44:00 -
[125] - Quote
Meditril wrote:These static 2/2 plexes are much fun and they attract a lot of PVP. Please don't remove them. If you really want to do something good, then make it so that they can't be farmed that easily. For example: the final room should only be accessible once per character and day.
Just make it single room, and make the final rat spawned by sitting on a beacon, like FW. This lets other people drive you out if they want. |

Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 11:58:00 -
[126] - Quote
I can say I was aware of the impending change somewhere around 3-4 weeks ago when I swapped over to Buckingham to play around with a Corax... I found the static complexes were gone and broke out probes to look for something to try out the new dessy. What I found were the same complexes, just scanned instead. I do agree with the idea that they needed to cast off their moorings and join the rest of the rated complexes.
However
I also agree that in places they were draws for people to visit and helped keep local economies (and pvp) thriving in a semi-controlled environment. I suspect CCP isn't going to budge on the move, but I challenge them to come up with something to replace it. I personally liked the idea that in order to claim loot from a static complex you have to capture and hold it for a length of time. Perhaps have the loot come up as random from any faction at a set estimated value (approximate) say for a replacement 1/10 equivalent have the loot table pull 25-40 million in est. value items to place in the can and let everyone who comes duke it out.
As for why, definately the farmers, especially when most of the farmers I saw while burning away the 30+ keys I had sitting around from when I used to run them were trial accounts or just past trial. (read: isk farms) The only one that didn't get farmed was the minmatar contracted bio-farm (1/10) simply because it has been broken for more than 4 years and drops nothing. |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 16:27:00 -
[127] - Quote
Still no reply from CCP, I realise they may be busy breaking code with a patch but it would be nice to get a reply, positive or negative, but just ignoring something is rude and counter intuitive to good customer relations.
This may not be a big issue to most of eve but those of us who live for small scale fun PvP this is a massive issue, and a particularly game breaking one.
The lowsec plexes aren't farmed for a reason, because they are policed by players (anyone who has read my blog will know I despise farmers and have made it my personal vendetta to expel farmers from my plex)
One question to be answered too, will the 1/1 and 2/10 Exploration plexes replace the more lucrative 3/ 4/ and 5/ in lowsec? Because if so you've just boned lowsec even further.
|

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
123
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 18:05:00 -
[128] - Quote
I doubt they will even spawn I low sec as that they do not seem to now. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Icantspellwell
Muppet Factory Northern Coalition.
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 19:37:00 -
[129] - Quote
Mhari Dson wrote:I can say I was aware of the impending change somewhere around 3-4 weeks ago when I swapped over to Buckingham to play around with a Corax... I found the static complexes were gone and broke out probes to look for something to try out the new dessy. What I found were the same complexes, just scanned instead. I do agree with the idea that they needed to cast off their moorings and join the rest of the rated complexes.
However
I also agree that in places they were draws for people to visit and helped keep local economies (and pvp) thriving in a semi-controlled environment. I suspect CCP isn't going to budge on the move, but I challenge them to come up with something to replace it. I personally liked the idea that in order to claim loot from a static complex you have to capture and hold it for a length of time. Perhaps have the loot come up as random from any faction at a set estimated value (approximate) say for a replacement 1/10 equivalent have the loot table pull 25-40 million in est. value items to place in the can and let everyone who comes duke it out.
As for why, definately the farmers, especially when most of the farmers I saw while burning away the 30+ keys I had sitting around from when I used to run them were trial accounts or just past trial. (read: isk farms) The only one that didn't get farmed was the minmatar contracted bio-farm (1/10) simply because it has been broken for more than 4 years and drops nothing.
Stopping farmers as others have said could have been a very easy fix. All that was needed was to remove these sites from high sec and prevent ships from being able to cloak within the plex. After that all ccp had to do was sit back and let the players take care of the people attempting to farm these sites. The isk made was enough to make it worth running and fighting over but it wasn't too much isk in my opinion at least. |

Commander Ted
Dookie on the flowah
100
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 20:27:00 -
[130] - Quote
Player built acceleration gates with ship restrictions go! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
|

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 21:03:00 -
[131] - Quote
Maybe they took it out so that they could just put it back in and tote it as a completely innovative new feature that promotes low sec pvp and fun? Because that is essentially what it was before. |

Awarmingcoat
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 01:12:00 -
[132] - Quote
I WILl THINK OF THE THE CCP DEV WHO DID THE WHILE BLOWING UP MINERS UNTIL THEY ARE BACK |

Issac Haydron
Professional Losers
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 02:41:00 -
[133] - Quote
Good thing i farmed the **** out them. Can't wait to see c/b types prices skyrocket.
Supported. CCP, please bring back static plexes to lowsec. Seyllin will never be the same  |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
388
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 05:16:00 -
[134] - Quote
bump |

Icantspellwell
Muppet Factory Northern Coalition.
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 05:40:00 -
[135] - Quote
Would love to hear an explanation from a Dev sometime soon... please. |

Volstruis
The Tuskers
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 08:21:00 -
[136] - Quote
Having lived in Ravarin for some time, and having more 3rd tier effects in my hangar than I can count, I can't support this.
Sorry, but I think new explorers need these much more than low sec pirates. You barely if ever probed them in high-sec before, now they are somewhat regular, and will provide new pilots with reasonable isk and a better chance to develop into the game.
I hear the argument, but they are constantly farmed, everywhere in eve, by players in pimp fit frigates with gang links in local. They are not 'training' grounds for explorers, which is what they are designed to be.
Dev explanation/sentiment will be similar to this I'm pretty sure and I have to agree with it. |

Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:47:00 -
[137] - Quote
Issac Haydron wrote:Good thing i farmed the **** out them. Can't wait to see c/b types prices skyrocket. Supported. CCP, please bring back static plexes to lowsec. Seyllin will never be the same 
Also farmed he crap out of them the last 2 weeks myself, should be an interesting take about midsummer once the available modules start to really fall off on the market. The farmers did a real good job at keeping the c-type armor resistances ezxtremely cheap (also the shadow serp and blood armor resists as well) wich while good for newer players did alot towards making the smaller unrated complexes unfavorable since they shared he same loot pool in part.
If they do get replaced into lowsec, I should hope they get left in the exploration setup as well.
As for finding them now, they're in the spawn pool for the region and can show up anywhere, usually sites will collect in unused or low traffic systems for hours or even days at a time. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
388
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 12:50:00 -
[138] - Quote
Mhari Dson wrote: If they do get replaced into lowsec, I should hope they get left in the exploration setup as well.
As for finding them now, they're in the spawn pool for the region and can show up anywhere, usually sites will collect in unused or low traffic systems for hours or even days at a time.
They are highsec only now.... |

Ava Starfire
Gradient Electus Matari
470
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 13:05:00 -
[139] - Quote
Thanks CCP for listening to our concerns, explaining the reason behind this change, and letting us what you intend to give us as a losec replacement and source of fun/isk for frigate pilots. Thank you for understanding that the miniscule amounts of isk generated by static 1/10 and 2/10 plexes is a drop in the bucket compared to that generated by alt FW isk farmers in weaponless stabbed merlins, and that entire communities have evolved around them.
Oh, wait, never mind. You didnt. |

Dong Orson
Space Zombie Apocalypse Prevention Department Mountain Sprouts
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 15:37:00 -
[140] - Quote
Bet if we were goons we would already have a response. |
|

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 16:36:00 -
[141] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:Thanks CCP for listening to our concerns, explaining the reason behind this change, and letting us what you intend to give us as a losec replacement and source of fun/isk for frigate pilots. Thank you for understanding that the miniscule amounts of isk generated by static 1/10 and 2/10 plexes is a drop in the bucket compared to that generated by alt FW isk farmers in weaponless stabbed merlins, and that entire communities have evolved around them.
Oh, wait, never mind. You didnt.
For great justice...
I'm struggling to write a blog obituary for the death of frigate PvP in Gusandall on an official CCP fan site A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
388
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 18:37:00 -
[142] - Quote
Scumbag CCP
|

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 19:07:00 -
[143] - Quote
Never Forgive, Never Forget. A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 19:16:00 -
[144] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote: They are highsec only now....
Really? Wow, nice move there CCP. How about we make the 4/10 low sec only then to help balance this out?
However that really doesn't help a heck of a lot since we're not missing the plex for its money making properties, we're missing it for the MEANINGFUL pvp it provides us with.
Oh and the communities that spawned around them. |

Teo Deo
T and D Enterprises
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 20:44:00 -
[145] - Quote
Here's another vote for bringing the static 2/10 back to low sec. The 2/10 in Heild provided a focus for some great frigate pvp fun. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
68
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 09:49:00 -
[146] - Quote
We're trying to think of a good way to come up with a 'temporary' solution in Heild.
Anchoring secure cans a couple of hundred k off top belt maybe? :D
Name them '2/10 Plex' ofc  |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
388
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 11:54:00 -
[147] - Quote
Given that ccp has yet to respond to this thead (and its not like they havent seen it), its quite possible it will need to be more than temporary. |

Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
130
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 12:06:00 -
[148] - Quote
The previous system allowed people to camp until someone else came along - then a fight would occur.
during the 23.5 hrs the server is up this would result in overseers all day and killmails once / twice a day at prime time. IMO
Bearing in mind that another critical holding point for CQ's expansive WiS strategy revolves around groups of people trapped in a room all day talking; Is it really worthwhile having one PvP room where people can be, essentially isolated away from the main playerbase, waiting for a fight?
I vote for static landmarks without faction spawns but bounties are available. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
69
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 12:22:00 -
[149] - Quote
Borascus wrote:The previous system allowed people to camp until someone else came along - then a fight would occur.
during the 23.5 hrs the server is up this would result in overseers all day and killmails once / twice a day at prime time. IMO
Bearing in mind that another critical holding point for CQ's expansive WiS strategy revolves around groups of people trapped in a room all day talking; Is it really worthwhile having one PvP room where people can be, essentially isolated away from the main playerbase, waiting for a fight?
I vote for static landmarks without faction spawns but bounties are available.
I think you've entirely missed the point of this entire thread there............Certainly in Hield the plex was used mostly as a permanently on overview easily scannable place to go for a fight with the mechanics allowing people to have a little more control over who fought what & where.
Usually the fights take place on the acceleration gate rather than inside the plex itself and certainly if someone was 'camping' it all day farming the spawns they would get interrupted WAY more than once or twice a day and so wouldn't have much luck in their farming..... |

Malfyrion
No Quit In Here
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 14:01:00 -
[150] - Quote
I am really getting a little bit itchy about ccp not responding to this, ive seen lesser and far more trivial threads with one or two pages getting one to three dev resonponses :/ ....so....WTH >:( |
|

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
128
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 18:38:00 -
[151] - Quote
It is frustrating that we have not even received a 'to bad so sad, deal' response.
I'm going to dredge the depths of my naive hopefulness and put some weight on hearing something from the CSM members with their meeting.
I'm happy to be a member of a community that can bring this issue forward, in a restrained and professional manner waiting for CCPs response instead of a thousand threads of tears as the patch has spawned elsewhere. But hope begins to fray after time.
Sigh. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

DR BiCarbonate
Basgerin Pirate SCUM.
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 19:11:00 -
[152] - Quote
+ 1 supported. There are many lowsec systems that are now next to worthless without the static frigate plexes.
Buffs t1 frigates and new destroyers.
Removes static plexes.
Really?
Whoever thought of that should be fired. |

Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
131
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 19:45:00 -
[153] - Quote
Vincent R'lyeh wrote:Borascus wrote:The previous system allowed people to camp until someone else came along - then a fight would occur.
during the 23.5 hrs the server is up this would result in overseers all day and killmails once / twice a day at prime time. IMO
Bearing in mind that another critical holding point for CQ's expansive WiS strategy revolves around groups of people trapped in a room all day talking; Is it really worthwhile having one PvP room where people can be, essentially isolated away from the main playerbase, waiting for a fight?
I vote for static landmarks without faction spawns but bounties are available. I think you've entirely missed the point of this entire thread there............Certainly in Hield the plex was used mostly as a permanently on overview easily scannable place to go for a fight with the mechanics allowing people to have a little more control over who fought what & where. Usually the fights take place on the acceleration gate rather than inside the plex itself and certainly if someone was 'camping' it all day farming the spawns they would get interrupted WAY more than once or twice a day and so wouldn't have much luck in their farming.....
Well no.
Static Landmarks where bounties are available would be much more susbstantial than "let low-sec have hundreds of chances for faction mods because we could fight someone."
Killboards can paint a clear picture on this. For example ships destroyed / npc ships destroyed is a strong argument against.
3 fights a month is a strong argument against.
Don't get me wrong, I know it's a silver plate for predatory, but if it had a fancy name people would still fly to it. If you scan for combat plexes you'll find stuff near the centre of systems to sit next to. You'll find other people warp to it regularly, like the Ebony Tower in Barmalie.
Nice killboard but you've more kills in Eugales on the first page than Heild.
The statics are still as profitable and are now scannable and no longer static. You'll find the odd 400-800mil plex scanning in low-sec all day. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
388
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:14:00 -
[154] - Quote
Borascus wrote:
The statics are still as profitable and are now scannable and no longer static. You'll find the odd 400-800mil plex scanning in low-sec all day.
And none of us care about this, because we used it as a pvp area. Camping a probeable plex just gets bears warping to you. We want combat ships |

Sol Malorion
The In-Humane Society Shadow Theory.
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 21:17:00 -
[155] - Quote
Removing the static plex from lowsec is a poor game design decision Waiting too long to acknowledge your customer's concerns is a poor business decision. CCP, the appropriate move at this point is to chime in with "we hear your issues and are considering options"
|

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 21:26:00 -
[156] - Quote
Borascus wrote:
The statics are still as profitable and are now scannable and no longer static. You'll find the odd 400-800mil plex scanning in low-sec all day.
Have you even taken a read over this thread?
Our concern has nothing to do with isk. We want combat, not PVE, and we want to fight other ships fit for combat. The static plexes were ideal because the reward for running them was high enough to attract attention, while the PVE side of it was easy enough that dedicated PVP ships could be used to run them. This together meant that these complexes were a chokepoint at which vast amounts of PVP could be found in any system in low sec that bore these valuable PVP resources.
If I was concerned about the isk I would have learned to cope with the new system since the fix CCP has come up with DOES in fact fix the camping problem that was so prevalent in high sec. However this fix has crippled some of the most vibrant small gang and solo PVP communities in the game.
Sol Malorion wrote:Removing the static plex from lowsec is a poor game design decision Waiting too long to acknowledge your customer's concerns is a poor business decision. CCP, the appropriate move at this point is to chime in with "we hear your issues and are considering options"
Yeah this. Some acknowledgement of our concerns would be appreciated. |

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
184
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 23:19:00 -
[157] - Quote
An inexplicable and dull move from CCP. Lowsec needs more places like these plexes, not fewer. It gets people out in space doing stuff, and it moves fights away from repetitive gate/station nonsense. |

Bondage Faery
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 10:00:00 -
[158] - Quote
Dong Orson wrote:Sounds awesome now people will have even less reason to visit low sec, and I can ship spin without being bothered by those pesky kids on my lawn.
Good job ccp, continue on your quest to make low sec pvp a one dimensional sandbox.
May I suggest for your next move be to limit all low sec pvp to faction warfare and then have that only be able to occur inside FW plexes and only then if both partys agree to it.
Can't wait to see your next bit of changes
Sincerely Dong Orson.
The sarcasm is strong with this one. Hope the peeps at CCP also got it right: STOP MESSING WITH LOWSEC AND BRING BACK THE STATIC PLEXES. IF YOU HAVE A SPECIAL QUOTA FOR MANDATORY CHANGES THEN ADD 3/10 PLEXES, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND FFS! *SPANK* |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
389
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 16:08:00 -
[159] - Quote
bumping again |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 21:02:00 -
[160] - Quote
Are we there yet? A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |
|

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
30
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 21:15:00 -
[161] - Quote
*Tips hat to CCP.
Credit where credit is due. It`s incredibly difficult to decrease the quality of game play with a new expansion with so many amazing changes. Yet new grounds are being broken at CCP every year, and this is just one of them.
But in all seriousness, where is a DEV explaining how this was meant to help low security space which already has a deficit of aspects with which to draw players?
I look forwards to the explanation and will sit ready with popcorn in hand until that point, because it must be an incredible announcement. Or at least I can only hope it is because there MUST have been a lot of thought put into this move by CCP.
With regards from a big fan of EVE.
~Sylvous~
|

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
389
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 00:53:00 -
[162] - Quote
Obviously CCP just wanted to taunt people with introducing tons of new frigates and destroyers, then taking away the place many go to use them. |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
214
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 11:36:00 -
[163] - Quote
Bumping for great justice.
We need a response CCP. Your actions have already displayed a substantial ignorance of low-sec culture. Please stop ignoring us and start communicating with us.
Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

CraftyCroc
Gunpoint Diplomacy
60
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 17:07:00 -
[164] - Quote
Bumping with a view to prolong this debate |

Angelus Ryan
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 17:31:00 -
[165] - Quote
Could any CCP rep give us an answer why this change has been applied and what are you going to do to cater to the solo and (very) small gang lowsec denizens after nuking a good part of our raison d'+¬tre, so to speak? |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
391
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 14:43:00 -
[166] - Quote
bump |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 17:01:00 -
[167] - Quote
Still nothing? How rude  A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Malfyrion
No Quit In Here
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 20:13:00 -
[168] - Quote
Welp...it is preety obvius we wont be getting a response. CCP simply does not want to take this disscussion regarding this, due to fear of potential backlash of the response or just favours the "ignore it and it will go away" approach :/
I honestly expected more from such a player interactive company as CCP, i mean a single response saying aye or nay would have been something atleast -¿.-¿ |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
391
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 03:15:00 -
[169] - Quote
Malfyrion wrote:Welp...it is preety obvius we wont be getting a response. CCP simply does not want to take this disscussion regarding this, due to fear of potential backlash of the response or just favours the "ignore it and it will go away" approach :/
I honestly expected more from such a player interactive company as CCP, i mean a single response saying aye or nay would have been something atleast -¿.-¿
They had more important things to spend their time on, like adding joke items to the game such as boot.ini |

Skrekkugle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 10:44:00 -
[170] - Quote
Bumping this! |
|

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
230
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 11:09:00 -
[171] - Quote
Honestly I don't think we will see any kind of dev's response here. If they wanted to respond they would do it already. Quite a few other threads from this forum got blue badges and they are about, well let's say not very heavy stuff. Judging from reactions of exploration people not only here but also in Missions & Complexes forum thread general crowd really sees no difference between plexes permacamped and farmed in highsec and use of them in lowsec. And I think devs are same kind full of blissful ignorance. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
129
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 16:54:00 -
[172] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Honestly I don't think we will see any kind of dev's response here. If they wanted to respond they would do it already. Quite a few other threads from this forum got blue badges and they are about, well let's say not very heavy stuff. Judging from reactions of exploration people not only here but also in Missions & Complexes forum thread general crowd really sees no difference between plexes permacamped and farmed in highsec and use of them in lowsec. And I think devs are same kind full of blissful ignorance.
Of course they do not. Just as the people who commented keep going on about ISK and assume that we camp the final room and pop the loot every time it respawns. Not understanding how empty the complex itself oftne is.
Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 23:59:00 -
[173] - Quote
Something... Anything?
Come on CCP, At least acknowledge you've seen this thread A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Icantspellwell
Muppet Factory
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 04:57:00 -
[174] - Quote
Can't ignore us forever ccp.. or maybe you can but if you are afraid to talk about your idea then perhaps it is infact a bad idea. |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 07:11:00 -
[175] - Quote
Bump |

Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
322
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 07:22:00 -
[176] - Quote
Quote from another thread, very relevant to this one getting more attention:
Copper Rei wrote:The 1/10 and 2/10 sites should have been made to despawn and not respawn if a room were occupied. They should also have been made to respawn in random places within the system.
This.
Make them respawn constellation-wise, so having an HQ in the area still makes sense.
More travelling through gates, be it the frigs themselves or w/e people decide to bring in the initial room when conflicts escalate to cloaky recons and sniping T3 BCs.
Those 1/10's and 2/10's were among the few unique reasons carebears/pvp oriented players established themselves there. They in turn attracted strictly solo frig-size PVP players, which then attracted bigger stuff. |

Tavisturus
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 07:53:00 -
[177] - Quote
It would be nice to get some sort of response from a Dev on this. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
391
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:06:00 -
[178] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:Quote from another thread, very relevant to this one getting more attention: Copper Rei wrote:The 1/10 and 2/10 sites should have been made to despawn and not respawn if a room were occupied. They should also have been made to respawn in random places within the system. This. Make them respawn constellation-wise, so having an HQ in the area still makes sense. More travelling through gates, be it the frigs themselves or w/e people decide to bring in the initial room when conflicts escalate to cloaky recons and sniping T3 BCs. Those 1/10's and 2/10's were among the few unique reasons carebears/pvp oriented players established themselves there. They in turn attracted strictly solo frig-size PVP players, which then attracted bigger stuff.
This doesnt help, its their static nature that turned them into a pvp hotspot.
Just bring them back, and forbid cloaking on the deadspace of the plex (which based on kaeda's experiments extends 100k km around the plex). "You cannot activate your cloak so close to this deadspace signature."
Replace the first and second room either with a capture beacon, or remove the 2nd room and require killing all the rats in the 1st room. Or just make it so that once opened by a key, it stays open until the plex is complete |

Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
324
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 16:58:00 -
[179] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Thor Kerrigan wrote:Quote from another thread, very relevant to this one getting more attention: Copper Rei wrote:The 1/10 and 2/10 sites should have been made to despawn and not respawn if a room were occupied. They should also have been made to respawn in random places within the system. This. Make them respawn constellation-wise, so having an HQ in the area still makes sense. More travelling through gates, be it the frigs themselves or w/e people decide to bring in the initial room when conflicts escalate to cloaky recons and sniping T3 BCs. Those 1/10's and 2/10's were among the few unique reasons carebears/pvp oriented players established themselves there. They in turn attracted strictly solo frig-size PVP players, which then attracted bigger stuff. This doesnt help, its their static nature that turned them into a pvp hotspot. Just bring them back, and forbid cloaking on the deadspace of the plex (which based on kaeda's experiments extends 100k km around the plex). "You cannot activate your cloak so close to this deadspace signature." Replace the first and second room either with a capture beacon, or remove the 2nd room and require killing all the rats in the 1st room. Or just make it so that once opened by a key, it stays open until the plex is complete
As long as you know the "static" PLEX is always within 2-3 jumps max by being constellation-wide, what difference does it make if the local PVP hotspot has moved a couple jumps? No need to add more obscure rules on which mods can or cannot be used I think. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
42
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 01:49:00 -
[180] - Quote
@ Michael Harari & Thor Kerrigan
I would tend to agree with Michael Harari on this one. A great fix would be the removal of cloaking devices within the complex. Also I LOVE the idea of the gates remaining unlocked until the complex is complete! This is of course provided that the overseer will not spawn if one tries to remain in the final room.
The reason I am for the static nature of the complex is because it makes certain systems key locations to travel to, and since there is over an hour on respawn times, it would mean that there would be over an hour during which there would not be a complex present catalyzing pvp. I completely understand the desire to make the complex move around the pockets in which they are located, but by doing that you are also removing a good deal of pvp. Why would people want to fight around the entrance to the complex if they knew it was all ready dead and not going to be worth anything?
On a side note, would a DEV like to contribute what CCP is planning on doing about this? We would all love to hear what ideas you guys have.
Oh, and as someone who frequently used the complexes as a source of PVP, I would like to point out to others and CCP that the areas in which these complexes used to be which used to generate a lot of solo and small gang PVP has deteriorated to ghost populations with their removal. I am of course only using molden heath as my reference, but I would not doubt that there has been similar effects elsewhere in EVE. |
|

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
129
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 02:47:00 -
[181] - Quote
I believe that the CSM members are currently meeting with the Devs. They have promised us in this thread to bring up the topic. I wait for their follow through in this. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Tavisturus
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 06:30:00 -
[182] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:I believe that the CSM members are currently meeting with the Devs. They have promised us in this thread to bring up the topic. I wait for their follow through in this.
|

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 07:02:00 -
[183] - Quote
Bump |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 10:16:00 -
[184] - Quote
Sylvous wrote:Oh, and as someone who frequently used the complexes as a source of PVP, I would like to point out to others and CCP that the areas in which these complexes used to be which used to generate a lot of solo and small gang PVP has deteriorated to ghost populations with their removal. I am of course only using molden heath as my reference, but I would not doubt that there has been similar effects elsewhere in EVE.
Same here in Metropolis. The population seems to have evaporated overnight since there's no watering hole to drink from, so to speak.
We need these watering holes in lowsec, because otherwise there is little reason to have any fights over resources there on the small scale. These lowsec plexes were a VERY rare example of PvE and PvP co-existing in EVE, since you could run them in PvP ships, and they were valuable enough to fight over.
The rest of EVE PvE is just a horrible, horrible, horrible grind. |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
129
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 10:00:00 -
[185] - Quote
Still waiting. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
42
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 19:29:00 -
[186] - Quote
Still waiting! Some response, any response, would be great. |

Tavisturus
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 19:59:00 -
[187] - Quote
This thread is not going to go away. We're all just going to keep posting in here until we get some sort of response. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 20:47:00 -
[188] - Quote
Dear CCP,
As a member of a concerned lowsec community I would like to inform you that your feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Please give what we have posted in this thread a read over and answer us with the following: Tell us: a) Why they were removed in the first place (we have speculated but have no real answer here) b) Why they were broken in low sec c) Of the suggestions made (assuming that our assumptions addressed the reasons for removal) which ones you are considering and why, which ones you are not considering and why and d) if none of the above is to even be disclosed give us some confirmation of this so that we can close this thread because right now it is important to all of us and we are dedicating time into something that might be worthless
If you can give us a, b and c you will spark A LOT of constructive conversation and generate a lot of ideas in the community. A great number of us are not contributing to this right now since we are concerned that it will fall on deaf ears. But showing that you are at least committed to taking something that was broken and fixing it will invigorate the community to do what it does best; make EVE better for everyone.
~Sylvous~ |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 22:54:00 -
[189] - Quote
Come on CCP.....
|

DR BiCarbonate
Basgerin Pirate SCUM.
21
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 23:25:00 -
[190] - Quote
WTB dev response..... sometime this year would be nice. And the year is almost over. |
|

Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
58
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 02:29:00 -
[191] - Quote
+1 .
these are great sites and more rather than less would be better. |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
215
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 03:02:00 -
[192] - Quote
Still waiting eagerly for a response from a Dev.
Also hi Havegun, long time no see! Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 04:49:00 -
[193] - Quote
Lets see,
November 4th-12th.......470 kills in Heild, averaging 52 a day.
December 4th -12th.....142 kills in Heild, averaging 16 a day.
Loss of beacon has had no affect....
You want to encourage PvP right CCP? |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
130
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 13:40:00 -
[194] - Quote
Posted to Twitter: 10 days 10 pages and not even a "deal" over static complex changes. We're not going away.
Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Shaera Taam
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
49
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 18:31:00 -
[195] - Quote
ok, ccp... ten pages (so far!) of piwates and nrds getting together and saying the same thing? and nothing from you guys? sigh...
yeah, i understand you wanted to fold the statics into the near-defunct exploration profession. fine. good use for the new exploration frigs. i get that.
but as many have pointed out before my arrival, low-sec pvp is taking a hit with this change. esp low-sec-frig pvp. we tend to rely on that beacon on our overview as a nice convenient place to go looking for a fight that is somewhere in the neighborhood of 'fair.' calling out on local "meetcha at 5-5, dood, i'll fight ya there" is nothing more than a blob invite.
so, not being one to complain without a suggestion for fixing things, here goes...
1. go ahead and wrap the 1 and 2/10's into the exploration side. your work there is done. gratz
2. put back the acceleration gates that used to be in the low-sec pvp hubs. you can label them 'damaged' or whatnot, but have them throttle ship size like we're used to, but when a ship goes thru, it dumps you into a near-random location (so the landing zone cant be camped) in a near-empty deadspace. add some eye-candy; an old derelict station with no collision bubble (so an approximation of station games dont happen here too), some old ship debris, some random spawning cans for the 'hey, what's in there?' factor, maybe a few high ranking faction rats... the possibilities are endless! and look! you've just created a low-sec thunderdome!
3. seed these thunderdomes all over low-sec! lore-wise they can be newly discovered faction training grounds, doesnt make much difference, yknow...
yes, i know building these assets take time, and as a fairly-incompetent coder i know the'll take work... but ive been careful to suggest nothing that doesnt already exist in new eden... it just doesnt exist in this combination.
please, just figure something out. throwing a bone to the explorers is great. just dont jack us up in the process.
-ST
Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess! |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
131
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 18:59:00 -
[196] - Quote
Shaera Taam wrote:
please, just figure something out. throwing a bone to the explorers is great. just dont jack us up in the process.
-ST
We only ask that the meat not be wasted that was on the thrown bone. We are still very hungry here.
Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Altaen
Calamitous-Intent
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 19:13:00 -
[197] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:+1 .
these are great sites and more rather than less would be better.
Good point. I agree that the strong design move would have been to add more of these complexes. |

Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
148
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 21:08:00 -
[198] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Borascus wrote:
The statics are still as profitable and are now scannable and no longer static. You'll find the odd 400-800mil plex scanning in low-sec all day.
And none of us care about this, because we used it as a pvp area. Camping a probeable plex just gets bears warping to you. We want combat ships
Sylvous wrote:Borascus wrote:
The statics are still as profitable and are now scannable and no longer static. You'll find the odd 400-800mil plex scanning in low-sec all day.
Have you even taken a read over this thread? Our concern has nothing to do with isk. We want combat, not PVE, and we want to fight other ships fit for combat. The static plexes were ideal because the reward for running them was high enough to attract attention, while the PVE side of it was easy enough that dedicated PVP ships could be used to run them. This together meant that these complexes were a chokepoint at which vast amounts of PVP could be found in any system in low sec that bore these valuable PVP resources. If I was concerned about the isk I would have learned to cope with the new system since the fix CCP has come up with DOES in fact fix the camping problem that was so prevalent in high sec. However this fix has crippled some of the most vibrant small gang and solo PVP communities in the game.
The two posts I made were pretty clear that financial gain is now segregated, and more profitable for PvP/PLEX'rs - you claim that aint you.
I also included the notion of Landmarks / Landmarks-with-bounties which could be used as the new hotspot. <- You don't seem to like the gladiatorial AI aspect.
Unless you are looking for bears you low-sec nobles should be able to work out a nice pvp spot and communicate. Get in the van, park it over there. |

NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
73
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 21:28:00 -
[199] - Quote
Why not turn them into the abandoned station marker but with accel gates? No worry of easy ISK, every bit of an arena. And even better you could alter them so different hulls could enter, rather than this size and below. Boom Lowsec just got the buff to pvp people wanted. If they can get past gate camps. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
63
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 05:04:00 -
[200] - Quote
@Borascus
I just checked your kill board to verify that you do use the complexes and have used them for pvp and can fully understand and appreciate what we are talking about here. Well the truth of the matter is that unless you are an alt you really don't understand at all.
Angelus Ryan wrote:[quote=Sylvous]The population seems to have evaporated overnight since there's no watering hole to drink from, so to speak.
Angelus Ryan has it right, these static plexes were like watering holes of a sort. They were easy, and did have a payoff that merited some level of risk (again, highsec was the wrong place for these), but be assured that on any given day more isk worth of ships was destroyed because of the existence of these complexes than was generated in assets.
There are all ready landmarks around the game and in low sec that people can go to, Ruined Minmatar Outpost for example. The thing is... it is not worth it. Sure you can go there, destroy a few bc's, but the isk vs time from that won't draw anyone to it who is serious about the game. You are better off running missions. The thing that made these static plexes work was that they had a disproportionately high isk to time ratio. Now I am understanding that those against them existing say that it was unfair because they provided so much with so little effort, the issue is that since they were just that, people were willing to fight over it, and lose ships over it. Because they were good enough to make fairly decent isk/hour you could expect that people would bring suitable combat ships to either gain access to the complex, or simply look for a fight.
It is true that the occasional person would show up in a purely PVE fit, but they were few and far between and would learn fast that PVP ships were the name of the game here.
These complexes were a choke point where readily available decent PVE spawned a amazing... for lack of a better word, arena in which PVP could happen.
The issue is that the introduction of a simple arena would not suffice as a good enough substitute, again we come back to the whole issue that there would be little point in that PVP other than the kill. ALl though myself and many others do engage in just that kind of PVP, its nice to be fighting for something, to have something that draws able PVPers to your area.
I hope that you might be able to understand now since you failed to ever experience what it is that you are generating an opinion on.
~Sylvous~ |
|

Icantspellwell
Muppet Factory
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 06:14:00 -
[201] - Quote
Still waiting ccp. Please at least explain to us why. |

Tavisturus
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 14:05:00 -
[202] - Quote
... |

Baronstar
Enigmatic Storm Limited
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 16:03:00 -
[203] - Quote
Ditto ...... would be nice to see a responce to the problem before next year |

Tavisturus
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 22:18:00 -
[204] - Quote
Bueller
Bueller
Bueller
...... |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 10:54:00 -
[205] - Quote
Bump
Getting a bit annoyed with lack of response. |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
38
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 11:53:00 -
[206] - Quote
Seriously? Eleven pages and not even the courtesy of a canned reply?
A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
219
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 11:55:00 -
[207] - Quote
Robinton Jax wrote:Bump
Getting a bit annoyed with lack of response.
I'm more than just a bit.
Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
403
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 15:30:00 -
[208] - Quote
Kane Rizzel wrote:Seriously? Eleven pages and not even the courtesy of a canned reply?
We have looked into this, and our records show nothing. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
73
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 22:56:00 -
[209] - Quote
Going back to the desert & watering hole analogy Heild is now just a desert.
On any given day I could pass through and see a bunch of corp mates, known pirates/pvp'ers from other corps and usually a smattering of randoms in system but since the patch it's like a ghost town
A response on this would be greatly appreciated Devs? |

Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
329
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 23:42:00 -
[210] - Quote
Bumping.
For great justice. |
|

Icantspellwell
Muppet Factory
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 01:27:00 -
[211] - Quote
bump. 11 pages and no reply, glad to see you care ccp. |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 04:41:00 -
[212] - Quote
Working customer service at CCP most be the lowest stress job ever, just ignore.
All kidding aside, just a few words so we know your at least thinking about our concerns would help. |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
139
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 16:43:00 -
[213] - Quote
For those who do not understand why we would become so expectant for an answer, I will point out CCPs excellent record of direct communication with the players. As it stands, we do not even know what group works on exploration so that we could focus our request.
Personally, a situation such as this shows the patience and restraint of the players as well as the importance to us.
Do we speak a little louder? Do we seek other areas of the forums instead of the polite containment that has so far focused the question in this thread?
It has been seventeen days since the change.
For now, I am waiting g for the CSM to recover from their travels and tell us that this was brought forward and we were not forgotten. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Shaera Taam
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
50
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 02:05:00 -
[214] - Quote
Robinton Jax wrote:...just a few words so we know your at least thinking about our concerns would help.
a lot!
Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess! |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 09:03:00 -
[215] - Quote
Just decided to bump this everytime i fly through Heild and see the tumble weeds blow past. I miss the reds, I miss the fact that even though you would mostly likely fight an off grid linked ship.....you WOULD get a fight at any time of day. No roaming for hrs looking for a fight....warp to the 2/10. And the beauty of it was you couldnt use tacticals to avoid a fight. Was just getting dedicated miners and mission runners to strap on t1 frigs and try their hand at PvP....and you take away their easy access. These guys will not spend alot of time D--scanning and baiting to get a fight. Why that 2/10 was so important.
Pick up the phone CCP. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
287
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 10:51:00 -
[216] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Anything about 2/10 lowsec static plexes removal? Anybody even dared to ask and demand answer? Because you know, there's 11 pages thread in Features & Ideas where lowsec pvp crowd is waiting for any kind of response from CCP. So, what gives? I certainly dared, bringing it up as often as possible with as many people as possible. I was quite clear about how many players this has upset and the PvP value that has been removed from lowsec with little explanation. Unfortunately, what I heard in return was NOT satisfying in the least. That being said, I also didn't get a chance to speak to the developer who was working on this change in particular. (Not everyone was around). So while I heard a vague explanation for the change, I'm certainly still trying to investigate this further. Keep up the feedback in your thread, and keep asking for communication from CCP on this matter. I will do the same. It's only fair that they come out and give an honest answer to the community's questions.
Proof of not imaginary quoting I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
405
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 12:55:00 -
[217] - Quote
Thats pretty bad |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 14:57:00 -
[218] - Quote
What's it going to take to get some feedback from CCP? I for one will be hounding devs on their twitter accounts. A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |
|

CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
1143

|
Posted - 2012.12.18 15:29:00 -
[219] - Quote
Hey guys, just dropping by to explain (as I did when Kane poked me on Twitter) that it's the start of the holiday season so a lot of developers are away or wrapping things up before they go away. Sorry that this isn't very satisfying (I can't really comment on the decision myself as I am not a designer and just got back from a long vacation myself so still getting up to speed) but I am sure someone will pick this up when they return in the New Year.
EDIT: By the way I appreciate that this thread has been going on since the 30th Nov. I don't have an answer for why it hasn't been picked up before, so let's just look forward to it getting addressed as soon as we are able to. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
|

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
141
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 15:33:00 -
[220] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Hey guys, just dropping by to explain (as I did when Kane poked me on Twitter) that it's the start of the holiday season so a lot of developers are away or wrapping things up before they go away. Sorry that this isn't very satisfying (I can't really comment on the decision myself as I am not a designer and just got back from a long vacation myself so still getting up to speed) but I am sure someone will pick this up when they return in the New Year.
EDIT: By the way I appreciate that this thread has been going on since the 30th Nov. I don't have an answer for why it hasn't been picked up before, so let's just look forward to it getting addressed as soon as we are able to.
Thank you for saying something. We were getting close to going full Yarr from frustration over feeling fully ignored.
Thread is here to stay. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |
|
|

CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
1143

|
Posted - 2012.12.18 15:39:00 -
[221] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Hey guys, just dropping by to explain (as I did when Kane poked me on Twitter) that it's the start of the holiday season so a lot of developers are away or wrapping things up before they go away. Sorry that this isn't very satisfying (I can't really comment on the decision myself as I am not a designer and just got back from a long vacation myself so still getting up to speed) but I am sure someone will pick this up when they return in the New Year.
EDIT: By the way I appreciate that this thread has been going on since the 30th Nov. I don't have an answer for why it hasn't been picked up before, so let's just look forward to it getting addressed as soon as we are able to. Thank you for saying something. We were getting close to going full Yarr from frustration over feeling fully ignored. Thread is here to stay.
Yup, I have it bookmarked, it'll get forwarded to relevant folk when they reappear. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
|

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 15:54:00 -
[222] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Hey guys, just dropping by to explain (as I did when Kane poked me on Twitter) that it's the start of the holiday season so a lot of developers are away or wrapping things up before they go away. Sorry that this isn't very satisfying (I can't really comment on the decision myself as I am not a designer and just got back from a long vacation myself so still getting up to speed) but I am sure someone will pick this up when they return in the New Year.
EDIT: By the way I appreciate that this thread has been going on since the 30th Nov. I don't have an answer for why it hasn't been picked up before, so let's just look forward to it getting addressed as soon as we are able to. Thank you for saying something. We were getting close to going full Yarr from frustration over feeling fully ignored. Thread is here to stay. Yup, I have it bookmarked, it'll get forwarded to relevant folk when they reappear.
As I said on Twitter, Thank you :)
A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |
|

CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
1020

|
Posted - 2012.12.18 16:13:00 -
[223] - Quote
Damn, Goliath beat me to saying everything he said. Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
|

Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1068
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 16:28:00 -
[224] - Quote
I wasn't aware this was even happening, but I agree that some of the ideas in this thread are good ideas for low sec in general.
The rewards can't possibly outweigh the dangers in low sec locations, but can provide focal locations for activities.
This is one of the things I heard a year ago from a friend who played EVE with me before moving on -
From his perspective, there was just : Sun, Planets, Moon, Stargates.
Although I tried to explain to him that there were anomalies and signatures, I think the message comes in the form that beacons with interesting phenomena that are easy to find and interact with are valuable to adding a greater sense of environment for attracting locations of both conflict and profit for younger players who are looking for "exploration light" in the EVE universe without a lot of overhead and scanning and so on. They just want to pick a direction and burn. I know CCP has addressed this in a few ways in the past, but the idea is relevant to enforce and build upon.
As a vet, my days are spent enforcing my space and making sure things burn, but I know my younger pilots around me want to find more "charm" in EVE in our area - and that includes locations that people can aggregate to for fights/experiences/environments that are easy to appreciate.
Where I am. |

fukier
RISE of LEGION
288
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 16:37:00 -
[225] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Hey guys, just dropping by to explain (as I did when Kane poked me on Twitter) that it's the start of the holiday season so a lot of developers are away or wrapping things up before they go away. Sorry that this isn't very satisfying (I can't really comment on the decision myself as I am not a designer and just got back from a long vacation myself so still getting up to speed) but I am sure someone will pick this up when they return in the New Year.
EDIT: By the way I appreciate that this thread has been going on since the 30th Nov. I don't have an answer for why it hasn't been picked up before, so let's just look forward to it getting addressed as soon as we are able to. Thank you for saying something. We were getting close to going full Yarr from frustration over feeling fully ignored. Thread is here to stay. Yup, I have it bookmarked, it'll get forwarded to relevant folk when they reappear.
Glad to see you back from vacation... Hope it was a good one... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
|

CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
1145

|
Posted - 2012.12.18 16:44:00 -
[226] - Quote
fukier wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Hey guys, just dropping by to explain (as I did when Kane poked me on Twitter) that it's the start of the holiday season so a lot of developers are away or wrapping things up before they go away. Sorry that this isn't very satisfying (I can't really comment on the decision myself as I am not a designer and just got back from a long vacation myself so still getting up to speed) but I am sure someone will pick this up when they return in the New Year.
EDIT: By the way I appreciate that this thread has been going on since the 30th Nov. I don't have an answer for why it hasn't been picked up before, so let's just look forward to it getting addressed as soon as we are able to. Thank you for saying something. We were getting close to going full Yarr from frustration over feeling fully ignored. Thread is here to stay. Yup, I have it bookmarked, it'll get forwarded to relevant folk when they reappear. Glad to see you back from vacation... Hope it was a good one...
It was wonderful! Thanks so much  CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
|

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 22:59:00 -
[227] - Quote
Thank you for the response Goliath, off for the holidays myself.
...and thanks to Kane for poking him with a stick on twitter heh. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
68
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 00:34:00 -
[228] - Quote
I can now retire my torch and pitchfork and cancel my unscheduled trip to Reykjavik this winter!
Thanks CCP Goliath and CCP Eterne for giving us a response.
I look forwards to see some development on this in the new year. I am sure the community will be thrilled to help with progressive ideas that help uphold the intended fix from the December 4th update.
|

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
221
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 02:36:00 -
[229] - Quote
Thankyou for the response Goliath and Eterne.
I'll be checking this thread regularly waiting for the Dev in charge of this change to get back from holiday and come talk with us. Hopefully something constructive can come of it. Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
142
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 03:24:00 -
[230] - Quote
Laktos wrote:Thankyou for the response Goliath and Eterne.
I'll be checking this thread regularly waiting for the Dev in charge of this change to get back from holiday and come talk with us. Hopefully something constructive can come of it.
Aye.
I know I will sit here and thread sit. The side effect of not having a life and not having a job that gives breaks for holidays means that my computer and I shall stay close together. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |
|

Shaera Taam
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
51
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 06:32:00 -
[231] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:
Yup, I have it bookmarked, it'll get forwarded to relevant folk when they reappear.
wonderful news! thank you!
ST
Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess! |

Miss Carry
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 12:54:00 -
[232] - Quote
\o/ |

mybeter
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 13:00:00 -
[233] - Quote
I support this thread. |

Christophe Boisvert
Red Brangus Unlimited Broken Chains Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 23:33:00 -
[234] - Quote
Well, of course while CCP goes on vactation, so will we - the trouble is that means more time in the universe without the 2/10..
Oh well, we'll just have to play other things.
I wonder if Star Trek Online is running ?
Just kidding, the EVE game is so big there's pleanty of other things to do here. |

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 16:23:00 -
[235] - Quote
What's particularly annoying about this is that it seems to be consistent with the old way of doing things for CCP. No mention in a Dev blog, no discussion with the CSM, just put it into the patch notes and launch, and then ignore the feedback.
This is how Incarna happened. This is how every other feature mess-up happened. We still have no evidence the Dev involved l has no idea that he has inadvertently messed up a great peace of emergent gameplay used by hundreds, if not thousands of players. Fixing this in 2014 is not an option. The change to the static complexes should be very easy to revert and then rethought. It is not as if the farmers of these plexes were causing 1/1000 the issue that tech moons or FW orbiting or incursion farming. |

DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 17:01:00 -
[236] - Quote
I'm fairly new at this, so bear with me, as I'm not grasping this at all.
* The 1-2/10 plexes are in low sec say, and start with an acc gate. * Players find out they are good isk. are easy to do, and they generally put togheter a pve frig and go there. * They warp there and find multiple destroyers/BC/BS and get alpha'd, ie a gatecamp.
Is the above incorrect? Cause it does not really give me a great incentive to do 2/10 ded's for isk, when I know that people that live near the ded's do in fact run them themselves and have ships that probably contain the nice shiny modules/ships that drop in those plexes to start with.
What stops people from camping 100km off the ded acc gate cloaked to just snipe ships that land on grid?
I must be missing something here, but it just seems to me like another choke point to just kill/alpha people at, rather then the "frig arena" you guys are making it out to be. I was told the same thing was happening at FW entry points where large fleets where killing anything landing on them.
|

Raphael Celestine
Sovereign Front Sovereign Fleet
17
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 17:48:00 -
[237] - Quote
The gate to a 2/10 plex will only allow frigates and T1 destroyers. They make good 'frig arenas' because you can't fly anything bigger into one.
You're right that it's a bad place to go if you want to do PvE for ISK; it's a lowsec site with a beacon, so that should be obvious. That's not what people want them brought back for, though. |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
144
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 19:14:00 -
[238] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:I'm fairly new at this, so bear with me, as I'm not grasping this at all.
* The 1-2/10 plexes are in low sec say, and start with an acc gate. * Players find out they are good isk. are easy to do, and they generally put togheter a pve frig and go there. * They warp there and find multiple destroyers/BC/BS and get alpha'd, ie a gatecamp.
Is the above incorrect? Cause it does not really give me a great incentive to do 2/10 ded's for isk, when I know that people that live near the ded's do in fact run them themselves and have ships that probably contain the nice shiny modules/ships that drop in those plexes to start with.
What stops people from camping 100km off the ded acc gate cloaked to just snipe ships that land on grid?
I must be missing something here, but it just seems to me like another choke point to just kill/alpha people at, rather then the "frig arena" you guys are making it out to be. I was told the same thing was happening at FW entry points where large fleets where killing anything landing on them.
It is not like a gatecamp. A lot of it is a culture and an environment. People go there to get into fights with their frigates with other frigates. Some of those frigates want to run the complex some do not. The complex is not camped 24/7 by a group of people with the intent to go and alpha some random person that comes in.
These systems tend to have corps that live in them and keep them 'clean'. The corps themselves tend to be frigate and small ship focused and that is the environment that they tend like a framer to his crops.
Because these groups and places are frigate focused, they are not a good place for BC and BS to be. The small ships easily slip under their guns and kill them. If someone decided to go, burn out, and attempt to snipe, the local inhabitants would clean them out quickly and do.
These are places where you can ask for a 1v1 in local and that 1v1 is honored. I understand if you do not live in low sec and live in these environment that it seems to be no different from any other places where people sit and wait for the innocent. I can but tell you that it is. These are the places where corporations send their young pilots to cut their teeth on their own, where the agressive can find a constant influx of PvP and where small ship fighting (which is hard in low sec due to gate/station guns) can and does thrive.
The people who inhabit low sec do so for many reasons. Most of them simply enjoy destroying their spaceships and living in an environment that caters to that lifestyle. They are flashy red because things like sec status are not going to make them miss a fight. That, however, does not mean that everyone who enjoys low sec and enjoys fighting in particular areas of low sec is a gate camper who believes in over whelming numbers to achieve a gank.
Many of these groups are new player friendly. They do not harp over killboard status and get angry because people lose ships to learn. In the end, they create incredible pilots with amazing skills in their chosen ship types. Some leave to move to corps with different playing styles and some stay because they develop a passionate love for that type of fighting. Some stay and still do other things because we're a flexible group but we are a dysfunctional family that shoots each other one moment and fleets together the next.
Healthy low sec environments are like this. Places like this are Oasis in the desert, drawing people to work together in new and different ways. This thread is full of people who live in the same area and shoot each other every time they can, yet they all are saying the same thing. Let us keep our places where we have created a living and thriving culture. There are pirates and antipirates and carebears and null sec folk and those that visit and those that have come and left in this thread all saying the same thing.
So, please do not judge us based off of a handful of high sec to low sec gate sitting corporations. There is a lot more down here then many people will understand. We have been and will continue, however, attempt to explain it. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
291
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 00:39:00 -
[239] - Quote
Well, it's hard to beat Sugar Kyle with better answer :)
One thing from me which already was explained many times in this and other places regarding 2/10 plexes: it is not about fights and people going inside plex, it is all about what happens at accel gate. You jump into a system, select plex on your overview and during warp in you check d-scan. No fu*king around with asking 1v1 on local and such bullcrap. You sit at plex it means you wanna fight - plain and simple.
I had run Heild plex once during my whole living in there, just because I never run those sites before and I was curious wtf it is all about. I got some bluetagged afterburner, threw it into my hangar and said "meh, too much effort".
Fights I had at that accel gate? Plenty of deaths, derps, runaways, warpins and warpouts. Sometimes helped mah fellow rebel with some kiter, sometimes wanted to get rid of some asshats camping it and died ECMed by st00pid griffins :)
Rebels and visitors alike - we all knew what to do at plex. It is all about explosions and fun.
Or...
It was.... I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
14
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 08:58:00 -
[240] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:I'm fairly new at this, so bear with me, as I'm not grasping this at all.
* The 1-2/10 plexes are in low sec say, and start with an acc gate. * Players find out they are good isk. are easy to do, and they generally put togheter a pve frig and go there. * They warp there and find multiple destroyers/BC/BS and get alpha'd, ie a gatecamp.
Rarely happens. Sometimes people do camp the entrances, but most often the areas tend to be clear of heavier gangs. That's what makes those things small ship PvP heaven.
DSpite Culhach wrote:
Is the above incorrect? Cause it does not really give me a great incentive to do 2/10 ded's for isk, when I know that people that live near the ded's do in fact run them themselves and have ships that probably contain the nice shiny modules/ships that drop in those plexes to start with.
You don't go into them in a PvE ship to make ISK. You go there in a PvP ship to make some ISK on the side while your main goal is to get fights (It is, however, a great way to pile up the ISK if you are a competent pilot and are capable of holding a plex under lock down and defeating people who come to evict you). Of course, that doesn't stop people from going in there with PvE ships and getting blown to heck (just like people keep taking Exhumers into lowsec and getting podded back to wherever it is they came in from), or fitting cloaks and warp core stabs and trying to avoid getting killed while farming the benefits. But those that do the latter can be rooted out by patient hunters, or can be just denied their drops if they are not willing to stick and fight for them.
DSpite Culhach wrote:
What stops people from camping 100km off the ded acc gate cloaked to just snipe ships that land on grid?
The fact that a cloaky sniper typically has a pretty long time after decloaking before it can actually lock anything, locking frigates takes a while, and they align fast. I guess you could do it with a Panther loaded up with sebos, but how many people are going to risk a 1bil ship to (maybe) kill a few frig or dessy hulls?
Sometimes people do camp the entrances with sniper Tornados (which then die hilarious deaths to the locals getting a stealth bomber tackler on top of said nado and blasting it to bits in two volleys). At other times, people will sit a propless cruiser with a gazillion webs at the gate (and then get tackled by long range tacklers and held down till they die). It is an interesting environment where you can get killed in a myriad of ways, which is exactly the way we like it. It also offers the solo pilot many tactical advantages due the deadspace nature of the grid.
People do sometimes use stuff like Rapiers to tackle frigs landing on grid, but people who start doing that might get a couple of kills before their killboard makes them damn obvious, and they either get baited and killed, or they just don't get any fights, get bored, and leave.
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I must be missing something here, but it just seems to me like another choke point to just kill/alpha people at, rather then the "frig arena" you guys are making it out to be. I was told the same thing was happening at FW entry points where large fleets where killing anything landing on them.
People rarely sit multiple BCs or anything larger at the plex entrance to kill and alpha people. There's little money or glory to be gained from blobbing a frig, a dessy, or an AF at a plex entrance gate. It is also boring, and due to d-scan, these camps are easily avoidable: You see a bunch of heavy ships at a plex, just don't warp in. Problem solved. Additionally, FW is a more group-oriented affair which can easily escalate into large battes. The people coming to lowsec static plexes are typically alone or with very few friends, which leads to the frig arena reality of those places. |
|

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
45
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 20:10:00 -
[241] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:I'm fairly new at this, so bear with me, as I'm not grasping this at all.
* The 1-2/10 plexes are in low sec say, and start with an acc gate. * Players find out they are good isk. are easy to do, and they generally put togheter a pve frig and go there. * They warp there and find multiple destroyers/BC/BS and get alpha'd, ie a gatecamp.
Is the above incorrect? Cause it does not really give me a great incentive to do 2/10 ded's for isk, when I know that people that live near the ded's do in fact run them themselves and have ships that probably contain the nice shiny modules/ships that drop in those plexes to start with.
What stops people from camping 100km off the ded acc gate cloaked to just snipe ships that land on grid?
I must be missing something here, but it just seems to me like another choke point to just kill/alpha people at, rather then the "frig arena" you guys are making it out to be. I was told the same thing was happening at FW entry points where large fleets where killing anything landing on them.
You do fail to understand what is happening here. The reason these PLEXes are so liked is because the provide just enough incentive to check out, but are not really worth farming. They were typically run in a PVP fit ship that ran the site only because there was no fight. I figure when I used to run these that about 1/3 times I would get a fight, the other 2/3 times I would just run the PLEX. Also it was not really viable to camp them with ships like a gatecamp. Just not enough activity to be worth doing that, and since the targets were frigates, they would just be able to escape anyways. This isn't like a stargate on a trade route where there are tons of ships going through looking for a shortcut. The only people who really were likely to show up were other PvP oriented folk in frigates. Lots of great fights. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
294
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 16:52:00 -
[242] - Quote
Shameless bump just in case some dev had enough of his family and wanted to share his thoughts with us :) I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
418
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 17:14:00 -
[243] - Quote
Angelus Ryan wrote:
People rarely sit multiple BCs or anything larger at the plex entrance to kill and alpha people. There's little money or glory to be gained from blobbing a frig, a dessy, or an AF at a plex entrance gate. It is also boring,
Angelus Ryan Dred Nots
Hmmmmmmmm |

Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
170
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 20:01:00 -
[244] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote: Although I tried to explain to him that there were anomalies and signatures, I think the message comes in the form that beacons with interesting phenomena that are easy to find and interact with are valuable to adding a greater sense of environment for attracting locations of both conflict and profit for younger players who are looking for "exploration light" in the EVE universe without a lot of overhead and scanning and so on. They just want to pick a direction and burn. I know CCP has addressed this in a few ways in the past, but the idea is relevant to enforce and build upon.
I think the above hits the nail! What EVE and especially low-sec and maybe also 0.0 needs much more are some kind of static stuff which makes systems look different and which provide a reason to fight for them. For example, prior the patch Lulm was hosting a level 2 DED complex. This was interesting for people scouting systems and it generated traffic by those who wanted to use the opportunity to make some ISK. Furthermore, this also attracted pirates who tried to kill those running the plex. This was a very nice eco-system and we need a lot more of them. They should be as unique as possible to provide and attract voyagers. |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
162
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 19:24:00 -
[245] - Quote
Christmas is over, back to post tending. We are still here and still waiting. :) Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
78
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 19:39:00 -
[246] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Christmas is over, back to post tending. We are still here and still waiting. :)
But currently full of mince pies & hot buttered rum 
So my suggestion to replace the 2/10 is
'Abandoned Pirate base'
It has an acceleration gate which only lets in frigs/destroyers and inside there's nothing but an abandoned station and a ruined smugglers stargate  |

CaiIyn Dove
Perkone Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 21:55:00 -
[247] - Quote
I just see a lot of sabre pilots ranges.
I can still recall that how I was disappointed as a noob pilot, when entered three 2/10s and saw only broken structures or empty cans.
Good job CCP, more chances to newbies, let the 2/10 camping sabres/dramiels get to low sec
To liars who talking about PVP: there are lots of FW sites there and they are much better place for 1v1 or small gang pvps than low-sec 2/10s, enjoy it or try to make up another reason to pull the high-sec veteran farms back. |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
162
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 22:40:00 -
[248] - Quote
CaiIyn Dove wrote:I just see a lot of sabre pilots ranges.
I can still recall that how I was disappointed as a noob pilot, when entered three 2/10s and saw only broken structures or empty cans.
Good job CCP, more chances to newbies, let the 2/10 camping sabres/dramiels get to low sec
To liars who talking about PVP: there are lots of FW sites there and they are much better place for 1v1 or small gang pvps than low-sec 2/10s, enjoy it or try to make up another reason to pull the high-sec veteran farms back.
You do realize we are talking about low sec for statics. Also FW is not everywhere nor should it be. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
78
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 23:11:00 -
[249] - Quote
CaiIyn Dove wrote:I just see a lot of sabre pilots ranges.
I can still recall that how I was disappointed as a noob pilot, when entered three 2/10s and saw only broken structures or empty cans.
Good job CCP, more chances to newbies, let the 2/10 camping sabres/dramiels get to low sec
To liars who talking about PVP: there are lots of FW sites there and they are much better place for 1v1 or small gang pvps than low-sec 2/10s, enjoy it or try to make up another reason to pull the high-sec veteran farms back.
Poster blatantly hasn't read the thread, seems to think we are talking about null or else why Sabre? and also can't spell 'rage'
Post discounted 
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
1167

|
Posted - 2012.12.26 23:37:00 -
[250] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Christmas is over, back to post tending. We are still here and still waiting. :)
And we're still on holiday! Don't worry I haven't forgotten :) CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
162
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 23:52:00 -
[251] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Christmas is over, back to post tending. We are still here and still waiting. :) And we're still on holiday! Don't worry I haven't forgotten :)
I don't understand this holiday thing since I'm still working. :(
I'm not making accusations of forgetting but I also am not going to let the topic sink back into the depths of the section. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 02:18:00 -
[252] - Quote
Toterra wrote: You do fail to understand what is happening here. The reason these PLEXes are so liked is because the provide just enough incentive to check out, but are not really worth farming. They were typically run in a PVP fit ship that ran the site only because there was no fight. I figure when I used to run these that about 1/3 times I would get a fight, the other 2/3 times I would just run the PLEX. Also it was not really viable to camp them with ships like a gatecamp. Just not enough activity to be worth doing that, and since the targets were frigates, they would just be able to escape anyways. This isn't like a stargate on a trade route where there are tons of ships going through looking for a shortcut. The only people who really were likely to show up were other PvP oriented folk in frigates. Lots of great fights.
It still seems obtuse to me that everyone is relying on this locations as informal "fight clubs". This was not what these locations were designed for, just because everyone has decided to use them this way is irrelevant.
We should be requesting CCP to think up a new mechanic that's better suited to this combat zone idea, and not complain when a change is made which impairs a meta-game. Everyone seems to want a "frigate combat arena" but seems too scared that when they say it out loud it makes it sound like they want a battleground like "other MMO's", and oh dear, we cant be like other MMO's, this is EVE !!!
Why not just add a new easy to scan down anomaly type - or just add a new wormhole type - that opens into pocket explorable space, penalizes high mass ships, and has similar explorable locations? You can add in high very rewards locations but with low probability of spawning to stop farming, and would allow fight between players normally hundred of jumps apart as well, ie far more players then just "the locals".
I'm not saying that mine is the optimal solution, but I haven's seen anyone suggest anything better yet other then "don't nerf my metagame". |

Olleybear
I R' Carebear
150
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 04:46:00 -
[253] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote: I'm not saying that mine is the optimal solution, but I haven's seen anyone suggest anything better yet other then "don't nerf my metagame".
A location in lowsec that encourages PvP is a metagame?
Others in this thread have done a wonderful job explaining how these sites in low-sec encourage pvp. They know what they are talking about and I would suggest you read / re-read what they have written with a more open mind.
That said, I am glad to see some devs have been made aware of how the plexes encourage pvp and are willing to take a second look at them. When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |

Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
344
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 05:37:00 -
[254] - Quote
Olleybear wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote: I'm not saying that mine is the optimal solution, but I haven's seen anyone suggest anything better yet other then "don't nerf my metagame".
A location in lowsec that encourages PvP is a metagame? Others in this thread have done a wonderful job explaining how these sites in low-sec encourage pvp. They know what they are talking about and I would suggest you read / re-read what they have written with a more open mind. That said, I am glad to see some devs have been made aware of how the plexes encourage pvp and are willing to take a second look at them.
Olleybear best bear. "I do want to point out one "abuse" thing I did see however. *snipped* Please do not post details of possible exploits on the forums. - CCP Eterne" ... Because of Falcon. |

DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:00:00 -
[255] - Quote
Olleybear wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote: I'm not saying that mine is the optimal solution, but I haven's seen anyone suggest anything better yet other then "don't nerf my metagame".
A location in lowsec that encourages PvP is a metagame? Others in this thread have done a wonderful job explaining how these sites in low-sec encourage pvp. They know what they are talking about and I would suggest you read / re-read what they have written with a more open mind. That said, I am glad to see some devs have been made aware of how the plexes encourage pvp and are willing to take a second look at them.
I have read the thread, so I do now get it.
"A location in lowsec that encourages PvP is a metagame?"
That's the problem right there, encourage? If players actually need places that "encourage" something to happen, you don't think its a problem? Why hasn't anyone just suggested to pick a few systems and "encourage" people to go there for frig fights, cause I'm pretty damn sure that the module drops from ships are worth more then running the low lev plexes, so afterwards, if they still don't go there, it means they didn't want those fights in the first place, and the only reason you're getting fights in the current mechanic is because you're just catching more stray greedy players who went there thinking they could run the complex unmolested. You set up a real "fight club" for 1v1 where the winner takes the spoils, and you'd get better turnouts, heck, you will get ME to come there.
I have ZERO reasons right now to randomly enter lowsec and risk multiple possible gatecamps for a low level complex. These fights you're thinking of will be between people like you that already live there, and that don't have an issue losing ships because they have their income streams worked out, and don't go there to run the plex in the first place - ie the fun is in the fight. If you want the rest of hisec to come out there for fights, ie the larger slice of the EVE population, there better be a better reason to be out there, cause getting there alive can be half the problem. Even if you were to make the complex rewards even better it would simply mean more people would be camping there waiting.
EVE mechanics are showing their age, and are based on old concepts that lose more and more meaning every time a new patch comes out. I was not being critical of what people are talking about in this thread, I'm trying to point out that it's ass-backwards logic because the fights are a side-effect, and not the intended idea.
You guys really want emergent gameplay? Start a proper fight club that attracts crowds. They started Bomber Bar and see what happened there, why not Frig Club? ... just don't tell Bomber Bar where it is, cause that might turn awkward.
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Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
344
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:27:00 -
[256] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:[...] because the fights are a side-effect, and not the intended idea. [...]
I think this is a good side-effect which shows the direction game design should be expanding upon. Those "camps" degenerated into king of the hills: competition for kills was just as fierce as competition for the loot. Survival of the fittest in it's purest form. Growing too big denied you both loot (massive split) and possible kills (nobody shows up when loosing your ship is guaranteed).
Real gatecamps work because targets are generally unaware of what awaits them on the other side. These plexes broadcasted to the entire system who/what/where was going on. It was your choice you went in and assumed the risks.
DSpite Culhach wrote: I have ZERO reasons right now to randomly enter lowsec and risk multiple possible gatecamps for a low level complex. These fights you're thinking of will be between people like you that already live there, and that don't have an issue losing ships because they have their income streams worked out, and don't go there to run the plex in the first place - ie the fun is in the fight. If you want the rest of hisec to come out there for fights, ie the larger slice of the EVE population, there better be a better reason to be out there, cause getting there alive can be half the problem. Even if you were to make the complex rewards even better it would simply mean more people would be camping there waiting.
Nobody expects these plexes to be the sole reason for people to come from highsec. They were an additional bonus among other things, which got removed. The big picture is that removing them gives even less reasons for people to come to those areas. Adding incentives versus removing them, just as simple as that. "I do want to point out one "abuse" thing I did see however. *snipped* Please do not post details of possible exploits on the forums. - CCP Eterne" ... Because of Falcon. |

Olleybear
I R' Carebear
151
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 06:58:00 -
[257] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:[...] because the fights are a side-effect, and not the intended idea. [...]
Nobody expects these plexes to be the sole reason for people to come from highsec. They were an additional bonus among other things, which got removed. The big picture is that removing them gives even less reasons for people to come to those areas. Adding incentives versus removing them, just as simple as that.
Yet again someone explains it well. And hey hey Thor. :-)
DSpite: I question the reasoning behind your posts. The only pvp record that I can find is a single loss on the E-Uni board and zero losses/kills on both battleclinic and eve-kill. This screams of alt character posting at best and ignorance of the subject matter at worst. When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |

Morgan North
The Wild Bunch Electus Matari
96
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:23:00 -
[258] - Quote
This is how it came to be...
There was a chance that the plex wielded a 60 million reward, give or take. So that encouraged people to spend iskies up to 60 million in ships. Its not sufficient to risk cruisers into, and you often found one, maybe two guys in there. So, you fought.
After a while, it became a matter of most of the time there's one guy in here. He even shot his friend or is cooperating with him, but they prefer solo, 'cause well, its boring to sit inside all day long and then ask for help.
The thrill dominated, and thats why we all loved it.
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Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
163
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 10:25:00 -
[259] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:Toterra wrote: You do fail to understand what is happening here. The reason these PLEXes are so liked is because the provide just enough incentive to check out, but are not really worth farming. They were typically run in a PVP fit ship that ran the site only because there was no fight. I figure when I used to run these that about 1/3 times I would get a fight, the other 2/3 times I would just run the PLEX. Also it was not really viable to camp them with ships like a gatecamp. Just not enough activity to be worth doing that, and since the targets were frigates, they would just be able to escape anyways. This isn't like a stargate on a trade route where there are tons of ships going through looking for a shortcut. The only people who really were likely to show up were other PvP oriented folk in frigates. Lots of great fights.
It still seems obtuse to me that everyone is relying on this locations as informal "fight clubs". This was not what these locations were designed for, just because everyone has decided to use them this way is irrelevant. We should be requesting CCP to think up a new mechanic that's better suited to this combat zone idea, and not complain when a change is made which impairs a meta-game. Everyone seems to want a "frigate combat arena" but seems too scared that when they say it out loud it makes it sound like they want a battleground like "other MMO's", and oh dear, we cant be like other MMO's, this is EVE !!! Why not just add a new easy to scan down anomaly type - or just add a new wormhole type - that opens into pocket explorable space, penalizes high mass ships, and has similar explorable locations? You can add in high very rewards locations but with low probability of spawning to stop farming, and would allow fight between players normally hundred of jumps apart as well, ie far more players then just "the locals".
Much of Eve functions as it was not intended to function.
The static complexes were on the overview. The overview that is right there, that we all use, that one can notice the static beacon on vs the scanner which like it or not is layered down far enough not to be an immediate thing for people passing through.
We do not want nor have we asked for an arena like other MMO's. What we have asked for, at the start, was an explanation on why the static complexes were removed. It was a single line noted in the patch notes. Considering the age of the static complexes the removal was sudden and unexpected.
Next, we discussed the static complexes as ISK generators for low sec. I do not think a single person in this thread, with a clue, especially the ones that post with the characters that they play that live in low sec and interact with these complexes, has asked or cared about their removal from high sec. Their removal from high sec makes a lot of sense.
The static complexes gave low sec a point of isk generation for newer characters. This is rather important because we often ask our new players for a level of self sufficiency. Activities that they can do on their own are rare. Even the sites that they can scan down are significantly harder then high sec. Considering that people PvE in their PvP ships a place like that static complexes were interesting.
We have continued, through this thread to explain that the nature of Eve had allowed the static complexes to grow beyond their intended usage. This is the natural state of play in Eve. It is obvious, by your own lack of understanding that what we have done with these environments were relatively unknown outside of low sec. Hence, we have striven to explain and bring to light one of the many activities we have in low sec where there is a vibrant culture of its own.
At no point have we asked for an artificial creation of an arena for fighting. We live and fight in the area because we want to live and fight in the area. What the Beacons did was break up the monotony of the systems and drop points of interest into them. This has also been explained. The ease of access for the beacons opened them up for many reasons from curiosity to boredom. The mechanics of the gates allowed for combat adaptations that created an environmental that was healthy for small ship fighting. Eventually, cultures grew up around these locations and they became small ship fighting hubs much as the trade hubs in the game have grown up despite the lack of intent for them to become trade hubs.
We had done something with the space we lived in. We had created an environment and we want to preserve it. With the sudden removal of the complexes, in this thread, we have sought to bring to light these endeavors and create an understanding for what we did and why we are asking for communication about what happened with the complexes, is there a change for a reversal based off of our information or can we at least open up talks to move forward with a future to keep this unique aspect of low sec alive and healthy.
What we have asked for so far is communication and discussion. We have offered up ideas from "please put them back" all the way to new possible mechanics that function around the same basic concepts of before which do not create an artificial environment.
The people posting in this thread come from all walks of playing style but they all have the same thing in common. They live or spend time in low sec, they fight, and they interacted with these complexes. What anyone skimming this thread will not realize is that most of us know each other and we know each other from the other end of our turrets. There are people in this thread that would never share the same spot in space voluntarily. Yet here, everyone has come together because the goal is large enough to organize the community to fight for it.
You do not know us DSpite, but we are still trying to explain ourselves, yet again. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
247
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 15:43:00 -
[260] - Quote
CaiIyn Dove wrote:I just see a lot of sabre pilots ranges.
I can still recall that how I was disappointed as a noob pilot, when entered three 2/10s and saw only broken structures or empty cans.
Good job CCP, more chances to newbies, let the 2/10 camping sabres/dramiels get to low sec
To liars who talking about PVP: there are lots of FW sites there and they are much better place for 1v1 or small gang pvps than low-sec 2/10s, enjoy it or try to make up another reason to pull the high-sec veteran farms back.
Petitioning CCP for a down-vote option. Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |
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Aliaksandre
Crimson Reach The Devil's Tattoo
60
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 02:48:00 -
[261] - Quote
Laktos wrote:CaiIyn Dove wrote:I just see a lot of sabre pilots ranges.
I can still recall that how I was disappointed as a noob pilot, when entered three 2/10s and saw only broken structures or empty cans.
Good job CCP, more chances to newbies, let the 2/10 camping sabres/dramiels get to low sec
To liars who talking about PVP: there are lots of FW sites there and they are much better place for 1v1 or small gang pvps than low-sec 2/10s, enjoy it or try to make up another reason to pull the high-sec veteran farms back. Petitioning CCP for a down-vote option. DSpite Culhach wrote: Everyone seems to want a "frigate combat arena" but seems too scared that when they say it out loud Ah but it was never an arena. An arena implies some level of sophistication. I can assure you, the amount of times Black Rebel Rifter Club warped in 5+ cruisers/destroyers to try to take out a couple of RANSM frigates and lost half their fleet ... well, it was anything but sophisticated or civilised!
Stop lying Laktos, r1fta can't fly cruisers~
Sugar Kyle made a great point. I have never read a thread where I knew almost every pilot who posted, friend or foe. This is truly a community inquiry that deserves, at the very least, a thoughtful explanation.
It is also very easy to identify those here that aren't apart of the overall low sec culture. Thank you for your interest, DSpite, however this thread is not about designing some jesus feature intended to make low sec explode with pvp. That can be discussed elsewhere. |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 09:09:00 -
[262] - Quote
CaiIyn Dove wrote:I just see a lot of sabre pilots ranges.
Killing Sabres is easy. I'd be more annoyed at the 2xMASB Hawks if I were you. I know I am.
CaiIyn Dove wrote: I can still recall that how I was disappointed as a noob pilot, when entered three 2/10s and saw only broken structures or empty cans.
What did you expect, that a plex with a first gate spawn time of 1.5 hours would be readily available all the time?
That spawn time is also what made the lowsec plexes even more into a PvP spot. You had to wait there, or in system, and you had to deny someone else the entrance if you did not want to be beat to the goods. You wanted the loot? Be ready to fight for it and hold that turf until you could get the keys (that or go get spare keys. How? I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader).
Otherwise: "No Gist For You".
CaiIyn Dove wrote: Good job CCP, more chances to newbies, let the 2/10 camping sabres/dramiels get to low sec
I thought we were talking about lowsec 2/10s to start with. That's what the thread is about. Heck, I can't even get into highsec aside of passing by quick (and neither can half the people in the thread). I'm -9.8. Nearly everyone who posted has stated that he/she fully supports their removal in highsec. But leave lowsec alone. Leave our culture alone. Save the Thunderdomes!
CaiIyn Dove wrote: To liars who talking about PVP: there are lots of FW sites there and they are much better place for 1v1 or small gang pvps than low-sec 2/10s, enjoy it or try to make up another reason to pull the high-sec veteran farms back.
Again, we don't care for the "high-sec veteran farms". We want them gone just as much as you do. Better yet, we want them simply relocated to lowsec. With twice the lowsec plexes, we'd have a lot of grounds to roam and shoot each other (and you, should you show up - You're welcome).
I don't know how often you've been to FW systems, but calling them much better places for 1v1 PvP is pretty much false. FW is a far more gang-oriented affair, and most people in this thread are first and foremost dirty, smug, evil, podkillin' solo space pirates (although nearly all of us do dabble in gangs, obviously) that play for the hunt and the thrill of the kill. Camping a plex? That's not what we do, simply because the ISK is a means, not an end, and our ships of choice don't require a lot of means to get in the first place.
Also, I don't know who you think are the people here that lie about PvP. I recognize most of the names here. I shot at a good half of them, got shot at by yet even more and most of those that don't fall into either of those two categories, I know by name or reputation.
Heck, if a thread can get me and Dilium to agree on anything at all, that means CCP messed up.
I respectfully suggest you re-read the thread, and then try posting again after you understand what's going on here, as you're missing the point by miles.
|

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 10:01:00 -
[263] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote: It still seems obtuse to me that everyone is relying on this locations as informal "fight clubs". This was not what these locations were designed for, just because everyone has decided to use them this way is irrelevant.
I think this is the part that you got wrong: It matters absolutely not what they were designed to be. The only thing that matters is how they are used in practice. This is what makes EVE different from other MMOs. Other MMO operators would "fix" everything that doesn't function exactly as intended. CCP doesn't (they also don't fix a lot that is totally broken in function, rather than design, but that's another discussion). This is what enables "emergent" gameplay, often touted as EVE's strongest point. In a sense CCP creates things and throws them into the sandbox. Whether we use the brand new sand scoop CCP created to build castles, or we sharpen it to a fine point and use it to stab people to death is our decision, and this what makes EVE great. |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 07:43:00 -
[264] - Quote
Bump
Still trying to think of any time I actually went inside that Heild 2/10. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
411
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 16:24:00 -
[265] - Quote
Robinton Jax wrote:Bump
Still trying to think of any time I actually went inside that Heild 2/10.
Really? Never? It was beautiful, I tell you. Shame we cannot enjoy it anymore...
Nah, it wasn't even pretty. But who cares about scenery when you are warping out just to warp back to gate and keep the waters bloody. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
52
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 18:35:00 -
[266] - Quote
Gusandall has become a Ghost Town... The Specials on infinite repeat :(
A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
18
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 18:59:00 -
[267] - Quote
Kane Rizzel wrote:Gusandall has become a Ghost Town... The Specials on infinite repeat :(
I feel your pain bro. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
416
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 21:29:00 -
[268] - Quote
Kane Rizzel wrote:Gusandall has become a Ghost Town... The Specials on infinite repeat :(
Man, Heild is like a Death Valley. Lost soul every few hours peering in and running away, a couple of ghosts chained into their quarters and not able to undock and some tumbleweeds every while in a time.
During nights you can hear explosions approx 7 AU from the sun but nothing is there. Nothing... Not anymore... I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 08:52:00 -
[269] - Quote
+1 Schmata |

Turgesson
Five-0
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 14:14:00 -
[270] - Quote
I'm glad someone pointed me here. Please for the love of Pete consider fixing any spawning problems and return these in greater abundance to non-FW low sec and NPC null some day. You removed a fun thing to do in low sec because of a problem with high sec bots and that should never happen. |
|

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 04:35:00 -
[271] - Quote
Roaming FW areas far from MH looking for small ship fights....feels wrong. |

Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
105
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 10:48:00 -
[272] - Quote
Robinton Jax wrote:Roaming FW areas far from MH looking for small ship fights....feels wrong.
As an null pvp'er, lowsec pirate and hisec indrustialist id say wtf is a FW area.. Yea bit of humour there.. But seriously wth i know about FW.. And why should i know something about FW when i dont do FW stuff..
Just saying... +1 occured... |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 12:34:00 -
[273] - Quote
FW areas are where my overview gets cluttered up with beacons.....and makes me think, hell we just had one in Heild...worked fine....and they took it away.
....then there is the subpar local smack.
So who in MH is running in next CSM? |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
185
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 13:43:00 -
[274] - Quote
Robinton Jax wrote: So who in MH is running in next CSM?
Hopefully someone who will focus on all of low sec and be the groups voice. There are to many different groups for there to be only one narrow agenda.
Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Raven God
Texas Inc. THE SPACE P0LICE
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 14:50:00 -
[275] - Quote
I support this. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
88
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 14:57:00 -
[276] - Quote
Robinton Jax wrote:
So who in MH is running in next CSM?
Dirty Protagonist for CSM!
|

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
255
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 17:41:00 -
[277] - Quote
No, Crafty Croc. Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
186
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 18:25:00 -
[278] - Quote
I love you gents but let us not derail too far from this topic and goal?
Perhaps we need a MH/low sec CSM candidate selection discussion amongst ourselves in game or on these or other forums but not this thread.
:) Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

CaiIyn Dove
Perkone Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 23:29:00 -
[279] - Quote
Angelus Ryan wrote: I think this is the part that you got wrong: It matters absolutely not what they were designed to be. The only thing that matters is how they are used in practice. ........................
Angelus Ryan wrote: What did you expect, that a plex with a first gate spawn time of 1.5 hours would be readily available all the time? .................. Otherwise: "No Gist For You".
Low level static complexes were designed to be the easy entrance for new players to play the exploration part of the game. When it is being exploit by the older players, a game content for a specified group is broken, so CCP will have to fix it one day, no doubt.
Angelus Ryan wrote: Killing Sabres is easy. I'd be more annoyed at the 2xMASB Hawks if I were you. I know I am.
People pretend that they misunderstood the other's point, trying to suggest that he's a pvper rather than plex farmer.
Angelus Ryan wrote:I thought we were talking about lowsec 2/10s to start with. That's what the thread is about. Heck, I can't even get into highsec aside of passing by quick (and neither can half the people in the thread). I'm -9.8. Nearly everyone who posted has stated that he/she fully supports their removal in highsec. But leave lowsec alone. Leave our culture alone. Save the Thunderdomes! You don't talk about the low-sec alone. Making exploration complex to be scheduled pvp club is just a misuse.
If your point stands, that "static low-sec 2/10 and 1/10 can bring more scheduled pvp, so it is good". Then we can do it on 3/10 and 4/10 etc, then saying "static low-sec 3/10 and 4/10 can bring more scheduled pvp, so it is good."
I agree that static sites in low-sec, which bring fair rewards accordingly, can be a good idea, But exploration sites are exploration sites, you should make the "static low sec pvp site" as an independent idea, which we have found it will works similar to FW sites.
Angelus Ryan wrote:I don't know how often you've been to FW systems, but calling them much better places for 1v1 PvP is pretty much false. FW is a far more gang-oriented affair You can't blob people in a novice site,but in complex you may have to fight destroyers in a rifter, If you insist that you can blob FW people on the acceleration gate, then you can do it the same on 2/10 plex.
FW sites has actually becoming a more progress stable(No wait for re-spawn), relatively fair (according to ship type), and reward rich low-sec gameplay that will totally make the static complexes obsolete.
|

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
258
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 01:32:00 -
[280] - Quote
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
FW sites has actually becoming a more progress stable(No wait for re-spawn), relatively fair (according to ship type), and reward rich low-sec gameplay that will totally make the static complexes obsolete.
Except FW is only in certain regions. A lot of low-sec is not FW space.
We're trying to keep the non-FW areas of low-sec alive. CCP's change is killing them further.
Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |
|

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 02:53:00 -
[281] - Quote
Ok CCP, the holidays are officially over :)
Show Molden Heath some love. |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
111
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 23:29:00 -
[282] - Quote
When these get looked at after the holidays can you guys NOT try to reinvent the wheel outside of the spawning problems? Just put them back and add some more to low sec. I'd rather not wait a year for "new and improved" ones that have more problems than the "old, tried and true" ones. |

xxxAlloxxx
Calamitous-Intent
53
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 14:58:00 -
[283] - Quote
The support from the community on this has been wonderful. I'm excited to see what CCP Dev's will do, I'm hoping for the best, don't disappoint me m8's. Also Hope everyone had a great Holiday season and a happy New Year!!! Newest Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02OAZ3W0fXs |

Olleybear
I R' Carebear
158
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 23:08:00 -
[284] - Quote
CaiIyn Dove wrote:Making exploration complex to be scheduled pvp club is just a misuse. Must nip this in the butt before people start believing it.
The pvp at the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes was not scheduled. Your making the assumption that the only time anyone flew there was when the plex respawned. This is not the case.
Unless you just killed the boss / building in the last room of the plex, your not going to know what time the respawn will occur. Everyone must fly to the plex to see if whether or not it has respawned.
Needing to fly to the plex to see if it respawned is what encourages the pvp around them to begin with. When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |
|

CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
1332

|
Posted - 2013.01.03 09:54:00 -
[285] - Quote
Pokings have occurred. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
|

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
486
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 11:49:00 -
[286] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Pokings have occurred.
Hopefully they will occur until satisfying response be given.
I mean I understand Eve is huge project with many many devs involved but there had to be that one guy who made a decision how hisec farming plexes problem should be solved. So first question I would like to ask to him is "Do you even play this game?" and second "Did you even ask anybody else about possible repercussions of your solution?".
Again, I understand huge software projects and sometimes little change here explodes in your face in most surprising place but moving static plexes to exploration system probably wasn't only about changing 1 stupid variable. So, when you were talking about it (because you did talk, right?) nobody said "Hey, I heard about those guys in lowsec exploding themselves at accel gates a lot. Do you think it will cut explosions for them if you make those gates not static anymore?" ? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Turgesson
Five-0
24
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 14:50:00 -
[287] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Pokings have occurred.
Cool, I been poking soft targets in high sec for the month they've been gone. Do us a favor and tell them not to hurry I'm sure we'll all just come around and join FW if we want low sec resources to fight over. |

Artimis kraw
Crimson Reach
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 17:15:00 -
[288] - Quote
Has my vote.
Safe |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
91
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 17:17:00 -
[289] - Quote
Turgesson wrote: join FW if we want low sec resources to fight over.
Annnd again with the missing of the entire point of this thread...... |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
187
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 19:43:00 -
[290] - Quote
Vincent R'lyeh wrote:Turgesson wrote: join FW if we want low sec resources to fight over.
Annnd again with the missing of the entire point of this thread......
We must be prepared to walk in a thousand circles if it will move us a single step forward.
(feels wise today) Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |
|

Turgesson
Five-0
24
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 01:14:00 -
[291] - Quote
Vincent R'lyeh wrote:Turgesson wrote: join FW if we want low sec resources to fight over.
Annnd again with the missing of the entire point of this thread......
There are 15 pages of points so I figured I'd throw in a joke to bump her along....unless I'm still missing the point? Please sum up these pages of points to point out which points are the important points. |

Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 02:32:00 -
[292] - Quote
How long have high-sec 2/10 complexes been working? Ever since some change to at least high-sec complexes years ago I've never seen a functional 2/10 complex in high-sec, or at least a single functional 2/10 rogue drone complex. |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 09:24:00 -
[293] - Quote
Just gotta say....this change actualy got me to comment after years in game. I had just started to get guys who spent 90 percent of there time doing PvE to check out the 2/10's.
The beauty was that they could take 10min and either make some isk(top of the PvE mind) or get a fight. Why I fell hard for them myself.
If I wanted FW I would take 10min to fly up there....Molden Heath had a flavor of its own till the change. Want it back. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
499
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 23:07:00 -
[294] - Quote
Just in case you guys forgot about us... waiting here... for ages...
But of course now it's weekend :) I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
114
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 15:43:00 -
[295] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Just in case you guys forgot about us... waiting here... for ages...
But of course now it's weekend :)
They're probably still drawing straws to see who gets to tell us it was an issue with the new npc AI that meant they had to be removed and they will never return....but they have somethin' MUCH better in the works for an upcoming release "soon" and it will be "awesome"!
|

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
53
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 18:29:00 -
[296] - Quote
We are still here... We are still waiting... We do not forgive... We do not forget... A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Turgesson
Five-0
24
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 00:35:00 -
[297] - Quote
Kane Rizzel wrote:We are still here... We are still waiting... We do not forgive... We do not forget...
We will ship boxes of dog poop from around the world to CCP headquarters on a weekly basis. |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
187
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 02:23:00 -
[298] - Quote
Turgesson wrote:Kane Rizzel wrote:We are still here... We are still waiting... We do not forgive... We do not forget... We will ship boxes of dog poop from around the world to CCP headquarters on a weekly basis.
Actually, no, we will not. We're a bit more classy and capable of having a reasonable conversation and discussion about the topic then that. The best way to have people who may already have a low interest in revisiting the changes or working on a new solution to not take us seriously is to act like everything people accuse gamers to be. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Titus Veridius
Calamitous-Intent
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 03:28:00 -
[299] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Turgesson wrote:Kane Rizzel wrote:We are still here... We are still waiting... We do not forgive... We do not forget... We will ship boxes of dog poop from around the world to CCP headquarters on a weekly basis. Actually, no, we will not. We're a bit more classy and capable of having a reasonable conversation and discussion about the topic then that. The best way to have people who may already have a low interest in revisiting the changes or working on a new solution to not take us seriously is to act like everything people accuse gamers to be.
Actually, no, Sugar. I have a shortage of static 2/10s and a surplus of dog poop.
I was ignoring this debacle until this happened.
I saw Sylvous, a semi-notorious Dramiel pilot from Molden Heath flying a Tornado. The story is that Sylvous only flies a Dramiel. No one has seen him in something else since 1984, when he quit grooming himself. I saw him in a Tornado, and this conversation occurred:
[03:16:37] Titus Veridius > oMFG [03:16:40] Titus Veridius > OH MY F******* GOD [03:16:42] Titus Veridius > HOLY JESUS [03:16:54] Titus Veridius > Sylvous is in a Tornado [03:17:02] CarnegieSteel > wtf [03:17:09] Sylvous > no 2/10 to pvp at [03:17:09] CarnegieSteel > why are you lying to us [03:17:14] Sylvous > what can a dram do?
Something must be done. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the static 2/10s. They were an entire net positive to everything in Eve. Nothing needs to be re-examined. Nothing needs to be tweaked. It was a change that made no sense and had no purpose and a Team Lead or Dept Head should have caught this...and never let it get patched.
That being said, the rest of Retribution was pretty awesome and smooth. Good Work. |

Olleybear
I R' Carebear
165
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 04:23:00 -
[300] - Quote
Titus Veridius wrote:I saw Sylvous, a semi-notorious Dramiel pilot from Molden Heath... ...I saw him in a Tornado.. Lies!
Sylvous cant fly anything but a dramiel. Pics or it didnt happen. When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |
|
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2959

|
Posted - 2013.01.07 10:53:00 -
[301] - Quote
Sorry for the delayed reply folks. CCP Bettik is the man with the plan on pve complexes and he was gone on vacation then came down sick. The rest of us on the team had a good idea of the thought process here and had a chance to go over a bit of it with the CSM before the holidays but we wanted to wait until we went over it thoroughly with Bettik before making the public post.
The good news is that I've now had a chance to touch base with Bettik and go over the situation.
Back in the day when most of the DED complexes were moved from static spawns to the exploration system, the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were left static because it was thought that leaving them accessible for people who had not yet learned how to probe would benefit new players. A happy side effect of that decision (that most of you are very familiar with) was that the lowsec plexes became geographical landmarks that give people a location to fight over to a certain extent.
However during this last release we went over some of the available data to look at how the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were serving their various purposes. Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, with the majority of the completions performed by the same small group of experienced players, some of which were clearly farming the content. The decision was made that special casing these plexes from the rest of the DED system was no longer worth it, and that the content would serve its primary purpose much better and to a much wider variety of people as exploration content.
This of course meant losing some of the interesting and positive gameplay associated with the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes, just as the old removal of the 6/10, 8/10 and 10/10 statics removed interesting gameplay in its time. However with hindsight it's fairly clear to us that the benefits of the old static plex removal outweighed the harm, with the content being run by many more people than could ever use the old farmable statics. The benefits of this change will be wider access to the pve content provided by these plexes and hopefully more people exploring lowsec as a whole (although less concentrated than previously). The downsides of course are a reduction in the number of geographical features that make some systems unique, as well as the easily seen focal point for players in space. We feel that as a whole this change will be a net positive, although I completely understand that it may not seem the case to those people who strongly benefited from the previous mechanic.
One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage): What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot? Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
398
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 11:02:00 -
[302] - Quote
So DED 1 and 2 complexes would become static "arena" type areas, would they be throught high and low sec or just low sec? If high sec also would concord interferience be removed in them? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
226
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 11:03:00 -
[303] - Quote
If you put these dead spaces through out the universe, could you consider adding the ability to anchor POS in them.
Being able to 'colonise' a plex in hostile 0.0 might be cool, especially if you got to choose one that restricted access to frigates, or sub-caps or some other random combination of ships. |

Mary Clarissa Titor
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 11:04:00 -
[304] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage): What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?
Do that, (with no NPCs whatsoever) make entering them a mildly illegal act -- the kind that gives people a suspect flag but nothing else -- and you've got the closest equivalent to arenas people keep asking about that Eve can have, duels with no sec status losses, for the least possible amount of coding. |

Morgan North
The Wild Bunch Electus Matari
102
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 11:15:00 -
[305] - Quote
I think that a reward should still be in place.
From my experience, the NPC rats were basically like "rain" in the duels that followed, but the actual goal was always, and always, to loot or deny the loot tothe other player in the room.
So I think that if a "new" complex was added, with the reward in the end it'd result in pretty much be the same, especially with the keys and acess timers.
All in all What I trully suggest is just the same complex, renamed, added as a static location, with the NPC's and all, to continue doing what was being done.
|
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2959

|
Posted - 2013.01.07 11:24:00 -
[306] - Quote
Mary Clarissa Titor wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage): What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot? Do that, (with no NPCs whatsoever) make entering them a mildly illegal act -- the kind that gives people a suspect flag but nothing else -- and you've got the closest equivalent to arenas people keep asking about that Eve can have, duels with no sec status losses, for the least possible amount of coding.
Consensual flagging to a specific person or persons is something we want to do with wider availability than just certain limited locations.
Morgan North wrote:I think that a reward should still be in place.
From my experience, the NPC rats were basically like "rain" in the duels that followed, but the actual goal was always, and always, to loot or deny the loot tothe other player in the room.
So I think that if a "new" complex was added, with the reward in the end it'd result in pretty much be the same, especially with the keys and acess timers.
All in all What I trully suggest is just the same complex, renamed, added as a static location, with the NPC's and all, to continue doing what was being done.
The shift to exploration was done in part to reduce farming of the content, and introducing new rewards is something that has to be done carefully. The main question I'm trying to answer with the "no NPC" query is how much of the pvp was fueled by the loot rewards and how much was fueled by the interesting geography of the acceleration gates. If it's the latter the solution is more simple, if it's the former the solution is more complex. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
505
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 12:07:00 -
[307] - Quote
Nobody except farmers cared about NPCs behind accel gates because massive amounts of fights was outside of plex anyway. You hanged out at beacon until somebody arrived and if you didn't want to take that fight because of whatever you warped out or used accel gate as immediate GTFO and warp out then.
And farmers in low got a one way ticket to clone vat sooner or later. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Tetsel
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
56
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 12:37:00 -
[308] - Quote
I'm not concerned about the DED stuff, but introducing some kind of "pvp arenas" in this game is, in my mind, not EVE spirit compliant. Twitter:-á-á-á-á@EVE_Tetsel-á-á-á@HereticArmy |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2959

|
Posted - 2013.01.07 12:47:00 -
[309] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:
As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run.
I find this argument interesting. Removing existing "arenas" is bad but reintroducing them would be a slippery slope towards something harmful? Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
506
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 12:56:00 -
[310] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing.
Well, I would say that it is just opposite - all fights happen at places which have not combat oriented function. Gates - travel between systems. Belts - rats and mining. Stations - ships docking, trade, repairshop, medical clone, etc. I would say that there is not even one place in Eve that is dedicated for pvp.
Think about it in this way: if you remove all offensive means from Eve (guns, drones, scrams, ecm, etc.) would all current places lose their purpose of existence? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
|

Callduron
158
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 13:39:00 -
[311] - Quote
I'm pretty ok with content existing in Eve that I personally wouldn't use. So I'm ok with adding "arenas".
You do know that people would game them, don't you? Point frigates landing on the gate with battlecruisers and gank them as they try to go in.
Also I really like it that conflict in Eve happens as a course of going about one's business. Maybe I'll get ganked when I'm fuelling my pos, maybe I'll catch a straggler ghosting along behind a big fleet op in my Rapier. It's the asymmetry that appeals.
Putting in mini-Warsong Gulches creates a space where everyone is there only to pvp while incidentally, accidentally, protecting the rest of Eve from them. If 20 frigates are fighting in an arena they just kill pvpers. If 20 frigates are fighting on a gate and a Badger jumps in, dead Badger. I much prefer the worldiness of the second scenario.
Also it's worth remembering that designed content negates the need for emergent content. We have some really good player conceived methods of generating frigate pvp. Red v Blue, the Tuskers events, etc. If there's no need to come up with such ideas because there are these deadspace battlegrounds Eve loses some of its character.
But sure, stick them in if you like. I'll be on the gate in my cane looking forward to meeting the enthusiastic frigate pilots!
|

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
188
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 13:45:00 -
[312] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:However during this last release we went over some of the available data to look at how the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were serving their various purposes. Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, with the majority of the completions performed by the same small group of experienced players, some of which were clearly farming the content. The decision was made that special casing these plexes from the rest of the DED system was no longer worth it, and that the content would serve its primary purpose much better and to a much wider variety of people as exploration content.
There is a problem with this. Removing them and dropping them into the scanned sites reduced the amount of people who had access to this content. 1,2,3/10's do not spawn in low sec and below. Low sec and below already suffers for want of content and things to do for frigates and new players. A player is advised to get a cruiser or assault frigate if they want to do exploration in low sec.
If this is the true goal then we need to have lower end complexes spawn in low sec to be explored. New players that wish to live in low sec by choice or by joining an established group early in the game have very little to no recourse for content that they can work on on their own. This area of the game appeals to people who enjoy doing things by themselves but they are constantly forced into holding patterns to wait to be able to handle that content. The security of the space is important sure but that danger has to do with the lack of protection from Concord and the Empire's control not only the strength of the NPCs.
CCP Fozzie wrote:One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage): What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?
The issue with farming comes from the high price of the reward of these complexes and the simple nature of access. If the complexes were re-induced with a more balanced reward mechanic or a smaller cookie of some type.
While the focus is on what the people did with the content due to its nature is the greater goal, the smaller goal was the natural creation of that content manipulation. As I said above there is not a lot of content for smaller class ships in the area. To keep the belivability of the content as something interesting to look at the murky explorer focused depths of my mind almost wonder about it becoming a static radar/mag site.
I'm terrible about coming up with game play ideas. It is not my creative area. I just feel that the focus for replacement/change/new needs to work off of the original goal of the original complexes so that player fueled game play can grow naturally out of that. If we try to make it happen from the start we are introducing a mechanic that has the potential to be broken from the start because it's Eve and it's hard to see every angle of things.
I need some tea to wake up. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
258
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 13:49:00 -
[313] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:
As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run. I find this argument interesting. Removing existing "arenas" is bad but reintroducing them would be a slippery slope towards something harmful? Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing. To be very clear, this "no NPC" idea is just that, and idea. Don't anyone go getting your hopes up I just want to have a discussion on upsides and downsides.
The 2/10's were never an arena.
They were a naturally formed food chain of pvp content. PVE Guy goes to farm it, PVP Guy 1 hunts him to the plex, PVP Guy 2 hunts PVP Guy 1 etc.
An empty beacon for PVP purposes will be nothing like what the 2/10's were. The 2/10's existed as the PVP hotspot they were because of the DED loot, because of the farming. Low-sec pvp almost always revolves around pve content. Whether its hunting of belt ratters or mission runners, setting up gate camps to catch haulers and freighters, fighting over control of POCO's. Non-FW low sec has no sovereignty mechanic, most of the PVP that happens, happens around PVE content and is initiated by Pirates.
And I still don't understand why letting some farmers farm is worse than destroying a successful and vibrant PVP eco-system in CCP's eyes. Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Turgesson
Five-0
24
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 14:19:00 -
[314] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, primary purpose
Thanks for the candid explanation but I didn't start playing eve for the interesting pve content. I'll just keep high sec ganking till the isk runs out and bail now. o/
My advice would be to stop trying to make shooting red plus signs and rocks interesting. As far as adding arenas, I think they should come right along with dance emotes for the CQ dolls. |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
398
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 14:49:00 -
[315] - Quote
By turning these into "arenas" it could have a negative impact of faction warfare complexes, which are used by both FW and pirates for PvP Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

VonKolroth
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
27
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 15:00:00 -
[316] - Quote
Laktos wrote: They were a naturally formed food chain of pvp content. PVE Guy goes to farm it, PVP Guy 1 hunts him to the plex, PVP Guy 2 hunts PVP Guy 1 etc...
...PvP Guy 3 camps the same system in a fotm frig, with two boosting alts in t3's POSed up.
In all seriousness, I do miss the quick fights these sites often provided, but I'd be lying if I said it was quality PvP or that they generated particularly good fights. MOst of the PvP problems would be solved if there were reasons to go to lowsec beyond capital/booster manufacturing, FW, and a handful of static PLEXes. |

FistyMcBumBasher
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 15:01:00 -
[317] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage): What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?
I never did the old DED sites, but what you described sounds a lot like Faction Warfare plexes in their current form. Maybe make it so that once one of the DED sites is scanned and warped to it appears on the overview so that others can warp to the plex, thereby creating pvp conflict? This would be a middle ground between completely removing them from overview and giving newbie scanners something to strive for. |

Oreb Wing
Purging Maelstrom Villore Accords
28
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 15:11:00 -
[318] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:
As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run. I find this argument interesting. Removing existing "arenas" is bad but reintroducing them would be a slippery slope towards something harmful? Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing. To be very clear, this "no NPC" idea is just that, and idea. Don't anyone go getting your hopes up I just want to have a discussion on upsides and downsides.
I remember roaming highsec for 1&2 Ded's and finding the mineral cans empty everytime and in the 1's a load of Serpentis Drug Overload wrecks I eventually started to fit a salvager for, as it gave tech2 salvage. Within sites that I happened upon a kill and gate key, I would find a guy orbiting the collidable objects at 30km in a hookbill or Punisher that I would sneak the loot away from, though I got killed a few times. I always suspected it was a scripted AI. In order, I think, to make them arenas, or miniature drone incursions, their place must be fixed or predictable. Maybe give them a set system, but make them scan able. As it is, the fights would come as often as I've fought over radar sites in low. Few and far in between, but still fun. |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
259
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 16:07:00 -
[319] - Quote
VonKolroth wrote:Laktos wrote: They were a naturally formed food chain of pvp content. PVE Guy goes to farm it, PVP Guy 1 hunts him to the plex, PVP Guy 2 hunts PVP Guy 1 etc...
...PvP Guy 3 camps the same system in a fotm frig, with two boosting alts in t3's POSed up. In all seriousness, I do miss the quick fights these sites often provided, but I'd be lying if I said it was quality PvP or that they generated particularly good fights. MOst of the PvP problems would be solved if there were reasons to go to lowsec beyond capital/booster manufacturing, FW, and a handful of static PLEXes.
When I say vibrant I don't mean constant "good fights". I mean a healthy mixture of blobbing, camping, spontaneousness and 1v1's. Constant "good fights" would be nearly as stale as constant blobbing or ganking.
Their relevance should not be determined by whether they give regular "good fights" or not. It's the amount and the mixture of PVP that went on there that made them relevant. And in a sea of inactive low-sec systems, these places were relatively buzzing with PVP action.
Now those systems and areas are dieing. All because CCP wants to stop some farmers from farming. It's completely mad.
Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Firebolt145
Calamitous-Intent
76
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 16:28:00 -
[320] - Quote
Laktos wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:
As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run. I find this argument interesting. Removing existing "arenas" is bad but reintroducing them would be a slippery slope towards something harmful? Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing. To be very clear, this "no NPC" idea is just that, and idea. Don't anyone go getting your hopes up I just want to have a discussion on upsides and downsides. The 2/10's were never an arena. They were a naturally formed food chain of pvp content. PVE Guy goes to farm it, PVP Guy 1 hunts him to the plex, PVP Guy 2 hunts PVP Guy 1 etc. An empty beacon for PVP purposes will be nothing like what the 2/10's were. The 2/10's existed as the PVP hotspot they were because of the DED loot, because of the farming. Low-sec pvp almost always revolves around pve content. Whether its hunting of belt ratters or mission runners, setting up gate camps to catch haulers and freighters, fighting over control of POCO's. Non-FW low sec has no sovereignty mechanic, most of the PVP that happens, happens around PVE content and is initiated by Pirates. And I still don't understand why letting some farmers farm is worse than destroying a successful and vibrant PVP eco-system in CCP's eyes. I don't know mate. I get what you're saying, but back in Heild, it was very rare for a fight to start there because 'some poor pve newbie got lost and thought he could make isk here'. It was always started because 'yo guys I feel like pvp I'm gonna get my destroyer/assault frig and warp to the plex at 50km, who wants to come?'
From that point on it became blobbing/people bringing bigger ships/lots of lulz, which is what you said too, but I'm just disagreeing about your statement that it was the pve loot that started it all in the first place. |
|

Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1165
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 16:29:00 -
[321] - Quote
I think what would be interesting for Low Sec specifically, as the first accesible PVP area, is more landmarks that are actually useful with some reward in there to promote player interaction - which may turn to fighting or may turn to cooperation. (Probably fighting in EVE).
The reason is to create a more varied environments to experience EVE.
I have always seen "acceleration gates" as a simple yet clumsy and awkward mechanic to restrict access to a location. Major issue being 1 access point to 1 location always causes a "camping" issue SOMEWHERE.
Should there be a reward? Yes, I think so. does it have to be farmable? No, I don't think so. I don't think you need to change the static plexes as they were completely either.
Here's what I think EVE needs : 1. More "Static" Places for perceived interaction than just : Planets, Moons, Stations, Stargates, Hidden Exploration Sites, Incursions, FW Plexes.
2. Locations which promote a healthy PVP opportunity for those not wanting a Battleship/BC engagement to happen against their will (To some degree).
3. A few more interesting places to "Easily" explore.
Here's how I think you can do it :
I don't know if you can technically create these dungeons, but let me tell you what I see...
1. Take the FW Plex "Beacon Popping on Overview" idea and make some specific anomalies that are easy to find with onboard scanner that pop up on overview. (This has never been done before :: but Ideally and optionally, these plexes would actually have 2 beacons that represent 2 separate accel gate entrances into the site so they're harder to camp by one party.)
2. Inside the plexes, there would be some reward/NPCs that are easy to take down and give some small consistent reward the longer you are in there. Perhaps you have to kill x NPC for 45 minutes until you get some spawn pop or something that gives you some drop. I know that CCP Greyscale was talking about adding Security Status Tags that increase sec status. Maybe combine that idea with these beacons to create a unique drop that can be exclusively very valuable to PVP players from the onset.
3. As players can easily find these places and run around with light ships, they will try and steal the sites from other players who have already done a good amount of the work to get to the reward.
PROs : - Less easily campable by the same experienced players - More dynamic locations - Creates a risk-reward scenario - Creates more easy exploration/beacons that are visible to your eyeballs when you enter a system, getting noobs interested in them (and probably dying horribly, but at least they tried) - Doesn't create a "Farming" experience. More of an exploration one.
CONs : - Difficult balancing reward for people who are looking for PVP - By adding time to the roaming and exploring aspect for these sites are they going to be condusive to PVP? Or do they really need to be static sites to keep the easy to find PVP interest they currently have?
Maybe when a player finds a site they will spread the word about the site since it's there for so long, and will come hunting for the ones in the site. Making an information network based around these lite exploration locations for people to come fight in them? Especially if Sec Status Tags are the central focal point of this, I think you have a very succesful reward scenario.
Just a few thoughts.
 Where I am. |

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
53
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 17:00:00 -
[322] - Quote
Laktos wrote:[quote=CCP Fozzie][quote=Schmata Bastanold]EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles: ... They were a naturally formed food chain of pvp content. PVE Guy goes to farm it, PVP Guy 1 hunts him to the plex, PVP Guy 2 hunts PVP Guy 1 etc. ....
I spent ten minutes writing a wall of text, then read this. Perfectly explains the situation.
CCP, just bring them back in low-sec and then talk about how to make them better.
|

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
260
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 17:05:00 -
[323] - Quote
Firebolt145 wrote: I don't know mate. I get what you're saying, but back in Heild, it was very rare for a fight to start there because 'some poor pve newbie got lost and thought he could make isk here'. It was always started because 'yo guys I feel like pvp I'm gonna get my destroyer/assault frig and warp to the plex at 50km, who wants to come?'
From that point on it became blobbing/people bringing bigger ships/lots of lulz, which is what you said too, but I'm just disagreeing about your statement that it was the pve loot that started it all in the first place.
Well, of course not every fight starts because players are hunting bears in the plex. But I highly doubt they would ever have become the pvp hotspots they did if it weren't for those initial bears trying to farm it which lures in the pirates. I'm trying to make the point that I don't think a PVP arena with no isk reward inside to lure the carebears and thus the pirates and thus the anti-pirates will ever come close to replacing what the 2/10's were.
And it wasn't just bears trying to farm those plexes. A number of pirates/pvpers roamed across regions to farm the loot from the 2/10's and hopefully find a fight in one of them as a bonus.
EVE PVP needs consensual and non-consensual parties. It needs hunters and prey. It needs greed for isk and greed for carebear killmails to motivate pilots to take risks. Without these things it just becomes a series of stalemates or boring 1v1's. I'm extremely disappointed that this was the best idea that came out of the CSM + Dev meeting.
Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
510
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 17:16:00 -
[324] - Quote
Simply put CCP in pursuit of better hisec PVE annihilated huge chunk of lowsec PVP. If devs can't or refuse to see it that way this whole thread is pointless. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3728
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 17:22:00 -
[325] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: The shift to exploration was done in part to reduce farming of the content, and introducing new rewards is something that has to be done carefully. The main question I'm trying to answer with the "no NPC" query is how much of the pvp was fueled by the loot rewards and how much was fueled by the interesting geography of the acceleration gates. If it's the latter the solution is more simple, if it's the former the solution is more complex.
Sorry Fozzie, but I don't think acceleration gates are interesting enough "terrain" on their own to drive interest in complexes. Now they certainly serve their purpose in limiting the size of a fight (which is great) but I still think that some semblance of a reward must stay intact for these to attract activity to them.
When our corp was farming the plex in Lulm, one of the big appeals was that you could make isk while baiting out a PvP fight. There was a payment for your time that made it worthwhile to visit and hang out even if no one else came along to fight you. Essentially, we used these plexes like FW plexes before FW plexes had their rewards added (which unsurprisingly started being run much more frequently.)
Strip away the reward, and you're forcing players to choose between PvP and isk-making - which is a step away from the direction you've headed between the FW payout system and the addition of bountyies. Simply put, I don't see these being compelling enough "content" on their own if we're talking gated arenas without some reward to bait players into running them.
Bloodpetal beat me to it - sec status improvement tags would be an EXCELLENT reward to replace the typical exploration content. If CCP is seriously going to follow through with the plans mentioned last FanFest (which you should, absolutely!) you'd be adding new content anyways, this is a fantastic opportunity to solve a few problems with a single mechanism.
I'd love to see a plex that spawns as frequently as necessary to generate sec status tags (Lets say you were thinking of having the sec status tags drop from an NPC in a belt, this could just as easily drop from an NPC in a plex) and that was easily discoverable using the -system scanner-, not the probing system. Once opened, the plexes could stay on public overview system-wide and become that conflict driver the old plexes used to serve as.
Thus we'd have a system that adds new content, creates a new profession (killing pirate NPC's to collect security tags for the marketplace) and replaces the old DED 1 and 2 plexes in terms of providing a wonderful pew chokepoint.
There's obviously lots of possibilities here, but this one is my personal favorite, but however you slice this I think rewards simply -must- play into this. Career PvPers deserve to make some bacon while they pew, and since we're limited on direct rewards due to farming issues the least we can do is provide content that pays on top of providing a place to find a fight.
....Keep in mind that plexes with zero rewards are what drove us nuts for many years in Faction Warfare. They weren't a good place to find fights, and I directly blame the lack of reward. Everything we've seen in Inferno and Retribution confirms this. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|

mkint
948
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 17:24:00 -
[326] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:
As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run. I find this argument interesting. Removing existing "arenas" is bad but reintroducing them would be a slippery slope towards something harmful? Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing. To be very clear, this "no NPC" idea is just that, and idea. Don't anyone go getting your hopes up I just want to have a discussion on upsides and downsides. There definitely is a type of person who would only be willing to seek pvp in 1v1 situations. I think facilitating that would help engage people who might otherwise not bother to even log in.
The only question that has any bearing is if such a thing would weaken other forms of pvp. I would propose that it would be a good thing if it does. It would expose which parts of the game are not as fun as they should be, which areas need dev time. Of course, then nullbears will call for nerfs to make it suck as bad as nullsec ops, but if devs man up and ignore them, the game can get to where it should be. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
19
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 17:25:00 -
[327] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:This of course meant losing some of the interesting and positive gameplay associated with the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes, just as the old removal of the 6/10, 8/10 and 10/10 statics removed interesting gameplay in its time. However with hindsight it's fairly clear to us that the benefits of the old static plex removal outweighed the harm, with the content being run by many more people than could ever use the old farmable statics. The benefits of this change will be wider access to the pve content provided by these plexes and hopefully more people exploring lowsec as a whole (although less concentrated than previously). The downsides of course are a reduction in the number of geographical features that make some systems unique, as well as the easily seen focal point for players in space. We feel that as a whole this change will be a net positive, although I completely understand that it may not seem the case to those people who strongly benefited from the previous mechanic.
One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage): What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?
In other words, your blanket fix for the farmable statics problem nuked an integral part of the small scale lowsec PvP scene and you stand by it. I am sorely disappointed. Why not return the complexes, with their DED loot and change the gate mechanics involved so that keys are not required? No camping problem (people will nuke the campers), same watering hole effect. Perfection ensues.
Of course, nuke the highsec ones out of existence, but just returning the beacons with deadspace without loot means that the whole watering hole concept is thrown out of the window. It is not arenas that we want, it is actual, meaningful places to fight over, to pirate at, and to call each names around.
This change makes EVE worse, not better, and makes lowsec worse, not better. And honestly, aside of some crazies living in lowsec, it is a pretty much dead zone outside of FW areas, and not everyone wants to participate in FW. There was a way (and is a way) to fix the farming problem without affecting the existence of lowsec static complexes, and the fix has been staring at you in the face for a very long time (fix key spawn mechanics, as people have asked over and over and over for years).
Sorry if I sound bitter, but honestly, you're severely reducing my will to play EVE by this change and by the fact you're not willing to revert it to the better. |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
19
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 17:32:00 -
[328] - Quote
Laktos wrote: EVE PVP needs consensual and non-consensual parties. It needs hunters and prey. It needs greed for isk and greed for carebear killmails to motivate pilots to take risks. Without these things it just becomes a series of stalemates or boring 1v1's. I'm extremely disappointed that this was the best idea that came out of the CSM + Dev meeting.
This. This. And 1,000,000 times this. |

Oreb Wing
Purging Maelstrom Villore Accords
28
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 17:56:00 -
[329] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:[quote=CCP Fozzie] ... to enerate sec status tags (Lets say you were thinking of having the sec status tags drop from an NPC in a belt, this could just as easily drop from an NPC in a plex) and that was easily discoverable using the -system scanner-, not the probing system. Once opened, the plexes could stay on public overview system-wide and become that conflict driver the old plexes used to serve as.
Thus we'd have a system that adds new content, creates a new profession (killing pirate NPC's to collect security tags for the marketplace) and replaces the old DED 1 and 2 plexes in terms of providing a wonderful pew chokepoint.
There's obviously lots of possibilities here, but this one is my personal favorite, but however you slice this I think rewards simply -must- play into this. Career PvPers deserve to make some bacon while they pew, and since we're limited on direct rewards due to farming issues the least we can do is provide content that pays on top of providing a place to find a fight.
....Keep in mind that plexes with zero rewards are what drove us nuts for many years in Faction Warfare. They weren't a good place to find fights, and I directly blame the lack of reward. Everything we've seen in Inferno and Retribution confirms this.
I think the rewards for these plexes are just fine, making up to 60mil on a single lucky run. Serpentis blaster and 3 dead space mods! I Don't agree that hidden sites someone takes the effort to scan out, and gimp their ship in the process to probe, should become easily avail. As an overview pop for anyone to see. Neither do I agree about the tags, as most of the issue here with common pilots, is that we get aggressed at these locations by pies that bring their sec status down to have the advantage of gate guns. My sec hits have ALL come from pies being in FW specific objectives that had nothing to do with them. Providing a kill spot, together with the opportunity for a free sec tag from someone's loot, will only make this a pie hang out, not at all working as intended, while benefitting those that abiluse the security mechanic most. |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3729
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 18:38:00 -
[330] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote: I think the rewards for these plexes are just fine, making up to 60mil on a single lucky run. Serpentis blaster and 3 dead space mods! I Don't agree that hidden sites someone takes the effort to scan out, and gimp their ship in the process to probe, should become easily avail. As an overview pop for anyone to see. Neither do I agree about the tags, as most of the issue here with common pilots, is that we get aggressed at these locations by pies that bring their sec status down to have the advantage of gate guns. My sec hits have ALL come from pies being in FW specific objectives that had nothing to do with them. Providing a kill spot, together with the opportunity for a free sec tag from someone's loot, will only make this a pie hang out, not at all working as intended, while benefitting those that abiluse the security mechanic most.
I think you missed the part about the reason these plexes now have to be probed out being to protect their value to those players that were into exploration and to reduce the frequency with which they were farmed by high-skilled players (i.e., pirates.)
All that to say, I'm not advocating we reverse that decision as long as we can brainstorm an alternative type of content that satiates the PvP-oriented "fight club" crowd. Placing a tags-for-secs reward inside an easily scannable plex is just one such idea for a replacement.
There's lots of issues to consider, however...for instance the current DED complexes do take several rooms deep to complete, and I'm not sure a multi-layered complex would be considred worth wading through to get the equivalent reward of shooting a nullsec rat to improve your security status. Perhaps a single-room (FW-style) would work, but than we'd have to see a fairly frequent spawn rate in order for them to actually provide places where people are present enough of the time to provide a pew target. The several-rooms-deep aspect of the DED plexes contributed greatly to that.
But in the end, that's just one idea. We're totally open to other suggestions here, the important thing is puzzling out a content / context / reward balance that delivers the same amount of fun for the outlaw PvPers you are complaining about here, so they can engage each other in this separate venue instead of camping content designed for explorers constantly. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
293
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 18:53:00 -
[331] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:But in the end, that's just one idea. We're totally open to other suggestions here, the important thing is puzzling out a content / context / reward balance that delivers the same amount of fun for the outlaw PvPers you are complaining about here, so they can engage each other in this separate venue instead of camping content designed for explorers constantly.
Is there any particular reason it has to be either/or? If you're going to introduce terrain, you might as well vary it.
For instance, what if one class of site is a CONCORD, or even DED, outpost, and it's the most likely to drop security status tags? To get through it, your security status has to take a pummeling. This would give -10s and other people who don't care about being flashy an income stream, and incentive to compete for it. Other sites could drop them as well, as incidental loot, but where else would you go for security status tags than CONCORD itself? |

Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1167
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 19:15:00 -
[332] - Quote
I think the "Sec-tags" should be a "Concord Hack Code" or such that hacks Concord DB's and changes your sec status slowly and drops from the sites. 
As the post above mentioned, maybe it costs your sec status to raise other peoples sec status, so it becomes a tit for tat scenario for reliable sec-tags from these plexes, while others are random drops from rats.
What I really don't want to see is just "Civilian FW Plexes". I would really like these to be different from FW plexes. (No timers, NPCs behave differently, maybe a hacking device needed, etc)
Where I am. |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3729
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 19:38:00 -
[333] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote: Is there any particular reason it has to be either/or? If you're going to introduce terrain, you might as well vary it.
For instance, what if one class of site is a CONCORD, or even DED, outpost, and it's the most likely to drop security status tags? To get through it, your security status has to take a pummeling. This would give -10s and other people who don't care about being flashy an income stream, and incentive to compete for it. Other sites could drop them as well, as incidental loot, but where else would you go for security status tags than CONCORD itself?
I think you misunderstood what I meant about terrain. I was simply saying that an acceleration gate itself is not enticing "terrain". The appeal in these plexes isn't just that you can shrug off cruisers and duel, its that you can shrug off cruisers and kill things and grab lucrative loots and maybe get some PvP along the way. Or that you can shrug off cruisers and pursue other frigates into the plex. But simply shrugging off larger sized ships was never the -primary- appeal in and of itself, certainly not enough to sustain regular traffic to such a complex.
Whatever these end up becoming, just as Bloodpetal said, they need to be distinctly different than FW plexes and not simply constitute rehashed content*. Lowsec has been robbed one conflict driver to the next, this is simply the latest in a chain of decisions that were made that had an adverse affect on the pirate culture without consideration of the fact there WAS a pirate culture in the first place. (Removal of agent quality was another big hit to piracy). CCP needs to develop lowsec with a sense of purpose and excitement that isn't just "that place where FW takes place."
And lets be careful about the tags-for-sec status issue and not overly confuse the two. First off, if CCP were to add tags for sec status, my guess is that you'd gain these the same way you raise your sec status now - by killing pirate rats. You're gaining favor with CONCORD by taking care of bad guys for them. Anyways, I don't want to get stuck on this idea of tags-as-plex rewards, that may not end up being the best place for them (if CCP commits to doing these at all, again, I hope they do) and there's certainly other types of rewards that could be used instead. Let's keep our minds open.
*That being said, I'd LOVE to see more ways to earn pirate faction LP in lowsec and for there to be more interesting and accessible pirate faction LP rewards and cashout places in lowsec, This conceptually just makes sense and I know a lot of players are thirsty for more meaningful ways to play on behalf of the pirate NPCS in EVE.....so there could be some intriguing possibilities here as well if we're not TOO scared of borrowing a little from FW plexes.  Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 19:44:00 -
[334] - Quote
Off the top of my head and in no way serious... To access the loot you need full tackle, scram/disruptor and web. Warping into he site with a cloak fitted drops you into a random wormhole, spending longer than fifteen minutes in the site spawns a full concord insta scram/web/jam response force for each player ship in the site.
I like the idea of the site impacting your sec status but would very much like for the sites to be static, restore the watering hole aspect we all love A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1388
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 19:52:00 -
[335] - Quote
just add an accel gate which drops you to a deadspace area at a random point within 100km or something. And add a rat which has a chance to drop repair paste.
this alone makes it 100% better as FW plexes after the plex layout change a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105
You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Angron Vail
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 19:57:00 -
[336] - Quote
Bare with me on this, there is a point.
In the early 80's during the skateboard revolution, skateboarders what used whatever means nessary to enjoy themselves, pools, parking lots, side walks etc etc.blah blah. When this was taken away from them, or made illegal, the cities created skate park to appease the masses. The intention was good, but they didnt work as intended, it became boring and had little in the way of choice, utility. It's very similar to the situation we are in now. The removal of just 1 2/10 plex has wiped out a once popular system. I.E Heild. Most of the residence there now moving on to other things/places. The answer/or Idea is to add an Arena, a skate park so to speak, but the point of the 2/10 was for frig combat,not arena, not sec status. The watering hole analogy is probably the best the one I have heard yet, pve goes to run plex pvp attacks said pve etc etc so on. Half the people that tried to farm it were sent home in a clone vat, so the argument of farming in low sec IMO is invalid. And entire cultures and corps were created/reliant on these plexes, so that tells me that the new player experience trumps the all ready established cultures and corps. I have been playing EVE for less than a year and that 2/10 was my initiation into frig pvp, so my new player experience is then invalid. There is no simple fix to this issue i understand, but to appease the masses, keep the low sec plexes static, and make the high sec ones scannable,( easier said than done I know). This 1 gives the low sec dwellers their "hang out" and 2 gives you your new player experience, they can safley scan for plexes in hi sec, and if they choose to go to low and look for plexes god help them.. Wanna stop farming? it was brought up, fix the key mechanic. |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1388
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 20:07:00 -
[337] - Quote
i forgot to add that frig sized deadspace mods are now very expensive again. If you don't bring the statics back you might want to consider to review the drop tables. A single mid-grade mod should not cost as much as the rest of the ship. This might work for T3s but i don't think it works for frigs. a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105
You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
91
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 20:08:00 -
[338] - Quote
Vincent R'lyeh wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:Christmas is over, back to post tending. We are still here and still waiting. :) But currently full of mince pies & hot buttered rum  So my suggestion to replace the 2/10 is 'Abandoned Pirate base' It has an acceleration gate which only lets in frigs/destroyers and inside there's nothing but an abandoned station and a ruined smugglers stargate  p.s Call the one in Heild the 'Abandoned R1FTA Pirate base' pls well that or 'Pinkiepietopolis'
I suggest my previous suggestion quoted above so people don't need to search for said suggestion.
However I suggest an addendum to said suggestion pertaining mostly to what the 'Abandoned Pirate Base' contains.
As people still feel that some kind of risk/reward element should be present , how about it will contain a few regularly spawning rats which can be salvaged for t2 goodies. Thus people who want to make a bit of effort can blow up the rats & get some good salvage whilst people using the area for PvP can ignore/blow up the rats as they will.
Thus allowing for some people to be tempted to go into the plex on the hope of there being a nice amount of worthwhile salvage whilst running the risk of meeting a group of angry player pirates looking for a fight (same t1 limitations ofc)
Of course there will still be people who will want to farm this salvage content but it takes longer to do so than waiting for a certain rat, popping him & if the shiny drops buggering off to drop in it station before returning to wait for the respawn.
Thus increasing the risk that someone farming the salvage encounters a group of slavering pirates who get the added benefit of popping him and getting a hold full of t2 salvage whilst engaging in standard jolly good pvp as in the good old 2/10 days?
|

X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
851
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 20:39:00 -
[339] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: However during this last release we went over some of the available data to look at how the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were serving their various purposes. Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, with the majority of the completions performed by the same small group of experienced players, some of which were clearly farming the content.
That would be me. I farmed the living heck out of the static site in Oicx, and so did all of my corp mates. This site lead to nearly zero pvp.
|

San Fransisco
Silver Falcon Survey
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 20:53:00 -
[340] - Quote
I would like to suggest a possible solution to this problem that could appeal to the pirate crowd as well as fit in to the story of eve.
Lets say, for story reasons, that the static DED Plexes were cleaned up once and for all by CONCORD. Hence their removal at the start of Retribution. Well wouldn't the pirate factions have responded somehow.
I propose that an agent in space, representing the corporation of the local rats, be added to the system that once held the static plex. The agent could offer missions into the old dead-space pocket to recover some random macguffin. The new/old complex would have the same ship restrictions and would be visible on the overview. I think it would be a good way to add some pirate themed PvE so that players could blow up some CONCORD ships and gain standing with a Pirate corp without needing to go all the way to null-sec
This way the reward for going to the site would still be there but the "farming" would be no worse than at any other agent.
Obviously leaving them untouched is a viable solution as well but this one might appeal to the story/roleplay folks
Alternatively you could put the agent in space inside the complex and have the mission runner be sent wherever. |
|

Gah'Matar
Knights of the Nyan
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 21:32:00 -
[341] - Quote
How about making these deadspaces have rats, with a slightly higher probabilty (2-5x) of elite faction spawns over the surrounding belts? No locked accels, but you get a faction rat once every ~4 hours... The reward wouldn't be high enough to warrant farming but worth poking a look in. Or something like that. Removing the locked acceleration gate would reduce the farming benefit while significantly increasing risk. The switch to normal elite spawns would also nerf the reward. |

Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
294
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 21:38:00 -
[342] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I think you misunderstood what I meant about terrain. I was simply saying that an acceleration gate itself is not enticing "terrain". The appeal in these plexes isn't just that you can shrug off cruisers and duel, its that you can shrug off cruisers and kill things and grab lucrative loots and maybe get some PvP along the way. Or that you can shrug off cruisers and pursue other frigates into the plex. But simply shrugging off larger sized ships was never the -primary- appeal in and of itself, certainly not enough to sustain regular traffic to such a complex.
Fair enough; I did go off on a bit of a tangent.
The idea, though, was that there were several different variables in establishing terrain. Yes, an acceleration gate is a significant piece of terrain, so maybe some sites could have more than one, and some could have none. But the contents and rewards of the plex are also terrain: Some sites will attract explorers, and some will attract pirates. If you really leave your options open, you could attract industrialists as well. Multi-gate sites and escalations will have different appeal than single-room sites, and so on. You have a lot of variables to play with.
The hardest part is setting up static content that isn't FarmVille in space.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:And lets be careful about the tags-for-sec status issue and not overly confuse the two.
Sure. I just ran with that as an example. I do like the idea of pirate characters illicitly bolstering their security status by some means, though. It's more pirate-y than shooting rats. Hacking a database, as mentioned by Bloodpetal, would be another way.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:*That being said, I'd LOVE to see more ways to earn pirate faction LP in lowsec and for there to be more interesting and accessible pirate faction LP rewards and cashout places in lowsec, This conceptually just makes sense and I know a lot of players are thirsty for more meaningful ways to play on behalf of the pirate NPCS in EVE.....so there could be some intriguing possibilities here as well if we're not TOO scared of borrowing a little from FW plexes. 
+1 to all that. |

Hampton Krantz
Black Core Mining Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 21:40:00 -
[343] - Quote
Hi, my name's Hampton, and I am a carebear.
I dabbled in pvp nearly 100% unsuccessfully, but I dabble. I started because of these complexes; hearing about a 55m drop, I naturally checked it out. With sub 1 million skill points I was about to make a small fortune.. and meet pirates. I'm in no way a fast reflex, preemptive decision maker type of gamer required to be good at pvp in EVE. I did make a small fortune, and I did get blown up. I also survived long enough to see another pirate kill my pirate. I fully support these exciting static plexes. I was deeply saddened when I checked the DED map to see they were all gone. Now I'm looking back into AFK mining since it's not exciting for my low SP character to try to PVP (read: go into lowsec) with nearly zero reward. Are there opportunities as a low SP player in lowsec? Sure, but I don't know about them. Something simple as an onboard scanner made me a part of a community for awhile, and now I have no reason to be. I also have no reason to stop my mining barge 5
I don't have time to find a niche lucrative business in lowsec as a carebear or casual player.
Please bring back the complexes and I will continue getting blown up |

Etuura Zellis
The Tuskers
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 22:11:00 -
[344] - Quote
As mentioned by X Gallentius, I'm sure all of us here are guilty of farming these sites for the rewards to some extent, particularly the corps that are established in or near the systems they existed. I can say this because I used these systems frequently as waypoints when I was roaming and 9 times out of 10 when I would arrive and enter to see if there was treasure inside, the site would have been run.
For me this was almost always a good sign as it meant if I stuck around the area long enough I would surely peak someones attention and get a fight or two out of it.
On the flipside there was also a number of these complexes in less traveled "backwater" systems. Whenever I would find myself in the dreaded PVP rut I took vacations of sorts to these areas. Why? Well it served two purposes, I could earn some isk relatively easily without wasting too much time on it and I could get fights out of some of the local frigateers who farmed them with little to no outside interference. I can't bemoan them for this, as it's exactly why I went there, but the fact is because of the rewards people would make the trip to these sites and either kill or be killed for the rewards.
High sec farming is bad, plain and sinple because no player can do a damn thing to stop it, doing it in low comes with risks and isn't as easily accomplished.
Making these sites into no reward "arenas" will probably draw some fights but the draw wont be like it was because in reality as long as pilots are in space there are fights to be had; but giving players who are typically opposed to most pve content for its tediousness something to earn/fight over is a big reason why most (whether they are willing to admit it or not) are so pationate about this.
You've done a lot to improve our PVP experience in low sec with retribution, but this decision was simply bad, no matter how you slice it. |

Oreb Wing
Purging Maelstrom Villore Accords
28
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 22:23:00 -
[345] - Quote
[/quote] l that to say, I'm not advocating we reverse that decision as long as we can brainstorm an alternative type of content that satiates the PvP-oriented "fight club" crowd. Placing a tags-for-secs reward inside an easily scannable plex is just one such idea for a replacement.
There's lots of issues to consider, however...for instance the current DED complexes do take several rooms deep to complete, and I'm not sure a multi-layered complex would be considred worth wading through to get the equivalent reward of shooting a nullsec rat to improve your security status. Perhaps a single-room (FW-style) would work, but than we'd have to see a fairly frequent spawn rate in order for them to actually provide places where people are present enough of the time to provide a pew target. The several-rooms-deep aspect of the DED plexes contributed greatly to that.
But in the end, that's just one idea. We're totally open to other suggestions here, the important thing is puzzling out a content / context / reward balance that delivers the same amount of fun for the outlaw PvPers you are complaining about here, so they can engage each other in this separate venue instead of camping content designed for explorers constantly.[/quote]
Hanz, I did not at all mean to imply that lowsec belonged to FW. But you of all people should not need me to clarify this. If anything, pirates made their homes in lowsec long before FW existed and at the moment there was security status for systems and Concord. What I do stand by, though, is the fact that if I happen to be focust-minded, trying to win eve! and find myself alone plexing or missioning in a stationless system (God knows who would otherwise be living or visiting there) and a player hits local. A Caracal shows up on short scan called, @Gé¼-Ñ^urface, there is little for me to wonder about their intention. I check their sec status. -4.6. K. I have three options. Run away, let him shoot first, or take the security hit, blind him with my vespa 600's, then go to town on him with my blasters and control range. Rinse and repeat with every pie engagement that is away from a gate. It is inevitable that I should myself become pie for defending myself against a <-5.0 pilot that is clearly bent on collecting my loot and making a trophy out of my KM. I cannot defend my negative sec status alliance members when a -4.6 pie tackles a fleet member at a gate. These are obviously problems, and your proposed sec-tag solution sounds as ridiculous as it is hilarious in its irony. As I find it would indeed, as you mentioned, provide quite the opposite effect: A pilots enters a sectag site to improve his standings, confronts a gang of pies he has to aggress individually. He walks away alive this time with loot and tags, worst off in his sec status than he was initially and no better than he began even after turning in the tags. There is a problem with the sec status, but the solution should not be a treasure chest in shark infested water. |

Denidil
Turalyon Plus
559
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 22:42:00 -
[346] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run.
"arena hate" is dumb. and makes us all less intelligent. Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design. |

Sofia Wolf
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
88
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 22:46:00 -
[347] - Quote
How about making those static plexses give out non material rewords, like standings and security status changes?
There is already need in low sec for standing and sec status mechanics beyond ratting and missioning. You want -10 standings without hunting pods all day? Simply go to static plex and run them for some time and get to -10. Want positive sec status? Well there would be static plexses in low sec that give out that too, and much faster then ratting. Want to improve your standings with some empire or corp or NPC pirate corp that you ruined all the way back when you were noob running missions? No problem because there would be 1/10 and 2/10 static plexses that would do exactly that. Only drawback they are only in lowsec and there are people in those plexses waiting other people just like you to kill them.
Of cource you need make GÇ£in characterGÇ¥ story for actions that need to be performed in plex to get those standing/sec changes, something like GÇ£save valuable document for this allince/corpGÇ¥ to improve standings or GÇ£kill refuges camp stationGÇ¥ to get negative standings and so on.
Those static plexses would be unique for lowsec, essentially a resource that would make that space different and valuable in a way w-space, 0.0 and high sec are not, and also provide ad least part of PvP utility that were proved by old 1/10 and 2/10 static plexses. |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3730
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 23:25:00 -
[348] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote: There is a problem with the sec status, but the solution should not be a treasure chest in shark infested water.
Well, that's essentially what the solution to sec status already is. Go out and shoot the biggest fish you can find in shark-infested water. You do make a good point about losing sec status in the process of trying to gain it back (or at least gain some form of token that someone else could use to do the same) but if its actual pirates you're shooting your way through to get to the treasure, you're not exactly losing sec status by shooting them.
Another intriguing idea that this question leads to, however, is the possiblity of a type of plex variable that actually flags individuals as suspects upon entering. Forget about tying this to the sec status tag pursuit thing for a moment (we're going way too far down that rabbit hole) - what if these were pirate lairs that Concord considered you a scumbag for loitering inside? Or perhaps a Concord security depot where trespassing was forbidden and subject to prosecution? 
Let's not overlook this brand spanking new code structure CCP's invested in, there's a lot of potential there for making some really cool "fight club" hang-out spots depending on how creative they're willing to go with this. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
465
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 23:37:00 -
[349] - Quote
You want a metric? Go look at the number of kills in Heild or Gusandall before and after the changes.
Another metric? Go look at the cost of a well fitted slicer (which 100% requires a b-type mwd). Talk about making PVP more expensive to new players (while more experienced players dont notice the cost of a fitted slicer at all, even with the bump in b-type mwd costs).
The cost increase is because the 2/10 is highsec only, and you can just farm level 4s instead of probing down what is not really a lucrative site. Most of the time you get nothing, and thats assuming you can even find one now. The main effect of this is that newer players cant afford slicers and similar ships as easily, while older richer players can still fly w/e they want. |

Olleybear
I R' Carebear
165
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 01:20:00 -
[350] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage): What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot? No loot = no reason to go to the plex. The CSM in this thread has pointed out why. I would like to add that this would turn the plex into another beacon on the overview like the static npc beacon Golgothan Fields in Ennur and the static npc beacon in Atlar. When you visit these beacons once or twice, there is nothing to keep a person from going back. Reintroducing the static plexes as you describe without loot, turns the static plexes into another Golgothan Fields.
There are a lot of us who agree with you 100% that the farming of static plexes is a problem. We are with you on that. The farming of the plexes is bad.
There are two things that made the plex farmable that can be changed if the resources are available to make the changes.
The first, and most important, is the static timer for plex respawn. Randomize that timer to occur between 30 minutes and 2 hours after plex completion or whatever time you think would be good. A farmer will no longer be able to log on alt, kill plex, get loot, log off, and set egg timer for next spawn.
The second is the ability of a person to sit in the last room of the plex, both uncloaked and cloaked, waiting until the plex respawns, finishing the plex, then waiting again for plex respawn. Make it so when someone is in any room of the plex, the plex wont respawn.
We understand the moving of the static plexes to the exploration system fixes both of these issues without needing to write any new code, but it brings us right back to why this thread was started in the first place.
Anyways, thanks for taking the time to look at this change again. It is appreciated. When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |
|

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
465
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 01:25:00 -
[351] - Quote
There are plenty of empty beacons all over the place. There is even one left in oddeulf from a live event, that was never removed. Nobody ever goes to them, and they are pretty much a complete waste. I have no idea what content they ever had, apart from that one in oddel.
The reasons fights happened on the plexes is that you were fighting over something. |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
114
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 01:53:00 -
[352] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Simply put CCP in pursuit of better hisec PVE annihilated huge chunk of lowsec PVP. If devs can't or refuse to see it that way this whole thread is pointless.
That pretty much sums up this situation. There was an "interesting pve experience" in the low sec ded plexes because of the players that fought over the loot. To call timing the plex, training the best ships and skills for it and teaching new players the ropes while showing them a way to make isk in a pvp fit "farming" is insulting. I think this is where I stop wasting my time with CCP and their frog boiling schemes...
Well, at least we'll still be able to scan down those ded 1 and 2s in low sec.  |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
465
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 02:20:00 -
[353] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:[a way to make isk in a pvp fit "farming" is insulting. I think this is where I stop wasting my time with CCP and their frog boiling schemes...
No, plenty of people did farm them, in stabbed cloaky frigates w/e. The thing is, there are numerous way to fix the farming problem that didnt involve nerfing lowsec and reducing the amount of pvp content available, particularly to newer players. |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
114
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 02:44:00 -
[354] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:[a way to make isk in a pvp fit "farming" is insulting. I think this is where I stop wasting my time with CCP and their frog boiling schemes...
No, plenty of people did farm them, in stabbed cloaky frigates w/e. The thing is, there are numerous way to fix the farming problem that didnt involve nerfing lowsec and reducing the amount of pvp content available, particularly to newer players.
I don't know what your crew did to those types but mine would make them history within days....and what's wrong with a plex ninja? He's hangin his meat out there to be chopped off just like the rest of us. Stabbed cloaky frigates on a timer that have to decloak to make an action like going through a gate or scooping loot are vulnurable at that time. Misfit bombers with spare keys, Seboed cruisers fit to catch frigates at the entrance gate...there are many ways to deal with the ninjas. I wouldn't consider them "farmers" in low sec sites either. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
465
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 03:40:00 -
[355] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:[a way to make isk in a pvp fit "farming" is insulting. I think this is where I stop wasting my time with CCP and their frog boiling schemes...
No, plenty of people did farm them, in stabbed cloaky frigates w/e. The thing is, there are numerous way to fix the farming problem that didnt involve nerfing lowsec and reducing the amount of pvp content available, particularly to newer players. I don't know what your crew did to those types but mine would make them history within days....and what's wrong with a plex ninja? He's hangin his meat out there to be chopped off just like the rest of us. Stabbed cloaky frigates on a timer that have to decloak to make an action like going through a gate or scooping loot are vulnurable at that time. Misfit bombers with spare keys, Seboed cruisers fit to catch frigates at the entrance gate...there are many ways to deal with the ninjas. I wouldn't consider them "farmers" in low sec sites either.
You can consider them what they want, but they were indeed farming the plexes. |

Oreb Wing
Purging Maelstrom Villore Accords
28
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 04:26:00 -
[356] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:[a way to make isk in a pvp fit "farming" is insulting. I think this is where I stop wasting my time with CCP and their frog boiling schemes...
No, plenty of people did farm them, in stabbed cloaky frigates w/e. The thing is, there are numerous way to fix the farming problem that didnt involve nerfing lowsec and reducing the amount of pvp content available, particularly to newer players. I don't know what your crew did to those types but mine would make them history within days....and what's wrong with a plex ninja? He's hangin his meat out there to be chopped off just like the rest of us. Stabbed cloaky frigates on a timer that have to decloak to make an action like going through a gate or scooping loot are vulnurable at that time. Misfit bombers with spare keys, Seboed cruisers fit to catch frigates at the entrance gate...there are many ways to deal with the ninjas. I wouldn't consider them "farmers" in low sec sites either. You can consider them what they want, but they were indeed farming the plexes. I've died a couple of times fighting in plexes. Killed a Dramiel with an Incursus and a Griffin buddy. The fights are there, and so is the Isk if no one else is. It was a great opportunity for nice stuff or a fun fight, which is much different from highsec, where it's either you got there first or too late, with someone already setting the timer for when to come back. In lowsec you could wait for them, in high sec why bother? Unlike exploration, you didn't have to wait for downtime to find something juicy, and as far as I know, exploration sites do not spawn except at downtime. I like the idea of scanning the highsec ones, and leaving the lowsec ones static. It's only that people needed to educate themselves about their existence, and at least like this, newbie explorers would get a taste of what these are worth, to keep or sell, and perhaps give them cause to dare the ones in lowsec when they get lazy like the rest of us! Anyone in lowsec can tell you it's not easy isk if you lose a pirate ship to find them, as that poor fella in Oicx learned. Hell, you even get to know your neighbors by the ticker on the wreck - damn you Gallentius!!! ::shakes fist:: |

Etuura Zellis
The Tuskers
19
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 04:40:00 -
[357] - Quote
If farming is the primary motive/concern with regards to these sites then I propose the following.
Remove all NPC belt rats to prevent isk/sec status farming. Remove all exploration content so explorers don't farm sites as they move sysyem to system. Remove all agents to prevent LP, standings, and bounty farming Remove all barges to prevent ice/ore farming.
As ridiculous as this sounds it also means there would be no botters, thats a goal too right? I forgot though it would also remove any chance of us PVPers finding ratters, explorers, missioners and miners to shoot at.
Acceptable loss though amirite?
/endsarcasm |

Volstruis
The Tuskers
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 10:02:00 -
[358] - Quote
Thanks for the reply CCP and as suspected, I think exactly in line with what everybody in this thread already knew.
Anti-farming sentiment from CCP is full of lulz. Thanks Etuura for your eloquence :)
I think they should be left exactly the same way as they were, but in low-sec only. I am sure us PVPr's have several creative ways of dealing with the farmers if they sit around in the plexes. Just make sure they spawn keys properly i.e. guristas 2/10 so we can go get em.
This is NOT the way to drive people towards FW for low-sec isk making. A bunch of us here just don't want to orbit stuff while shooting red crosses. I can guarantee you devs any requests to Tuskers management to enroll us will be met with lulz-for-days. We want to roam around and get the occasional DED drop to keep us in isk while we actively look for PVP. Solve that and this whole problem goes away.
Bounty almost worked... But its not a reliable source of income. |

Tetsel
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
57
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 13:13:00 -
[359] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Let's not overlook this brand spanking new code structure CCP's invested in, there's a lot of potential there for making some really cool "fight club" hang-out spots depending on how creative they're willing to go with this.
That's what Amamake top belt is for... fight club, no need for specific area with some specific gamemech/flaging. Or just put a static complex with reward and you will have a fight club... Oh wait... Twitter:-á-á-á-á@EVE_Tetsel-á-á-á@HereticArmy |

xxxAlloxxx
Calamitous-Intent
57
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 13:56:00 -
[360] - Quote
Firebolt145 wrote:Laktos wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:
As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run. I find this argument interesting. Removing existing "arenas" is bad but reintroducing them would be a slippery slope towards something harmful? Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing. To be very clear, this "no NPC" idea is just that, and idea. Don't anyone go getting your hopes up I just want to have a discussion on upsides and downsides. The 2/10's were never an arena. They were a naturally formed food chain of pvp content. PVE Guy goes to farm it, PVP Guy 1 hunts him to the plex, PVP Guy 2 hunts PVP Guy 1 etc. An empty beacon for PVP purposes will be nothing like what the 2/10's were. The 2/10's existed as the PVP hotspot they were because of the DED loot, because of the farming. Low-sec pvp almost always revolves around pve content. Whether its hunting of belt ratters or mission runners, setting up gate camps to catch haulers and freighters, fighting over control of POCO's. Non-FW low sec has no sovereignty mechanic, most of the PVP that happens, happens around PVE content and is initiated by Pirates. And I still don't understand why letting some farmers farm is worse than destroying a successful and vibrant PVP eco-system in CCP's eyes. I don't know mate. I get what you're saying, but back in Heild, it was very rare for a fight to start there because 'some poor pve newbie got lost and thought he could make isk here'. It was always started because 'yo guys I feel like pvp I'm gonna get my destroyer/assault frig and warp to the plex at 50km, who wants to come?' From that point on it became blobbing/people bringing bigger ships/lots of lulz, which is what you said too, but I'm just disagreeing about your statement that it was the pve loot that started it all in the first place.
As someone who formerly hunted these sites for pew, I can confirm that the PVE content is what brought most people down to these sites. Also the reason so much action happened at them was cause pvp'ers were either looking to gank the pve'ers come to run said sites or to fight the other pvp'ers who came to kill w/e was there.
Of course the heild plex was another beast all together. With Black Rebel R1fter around and the rest of the molden community who loved frig fights, that plex had the ability to turn a simple fight into a major frig engagement with multiple party's fighting each other. The "Golden Age" of frig/destroyer PVP in Molden Heath will forever be a happy thought in my mind..
Newest Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02OAZ3W0fXs |
|

xxxAlloxxx
Calamitous-Intent
59
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 14:00:00 -
[361] - Quote
Olleybear wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage): What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot? No loot = no reason to go to the plex. The CSM in this thread has pointed out why. I would like to add that this would turn the plex into another beacon on the overview like the static npc beacon Golgothan Fields in Ennur and the static npc beacon in Atlar. When you visit these beacons once or twice there is nothing to keep a person interested in going back. Reintroducing the static plexes as you describe without loot, turns the static plexes into another Golgothan Fields. There are a lot of us who agree with you 100% that the farming of static plexes is a problem. We are with you on that. The farming of the plexes is bad. There are two things that made the plex farmable that can be changed if the resources are available to make the changes. The first, and most important, is the static timer for plex respawn. Randomize that timer to occur between 30 minutes and 2 hours after plex completion or whatever time you think would be good. A farmer will no longer be able to log on alt, kill plex, get loot, log off, and set egg timer for next spawn. The second is the ability of a person to sit in the last room of the plex, both uncloaked and cloaked, waiting until the plex respawns, finishing the plex, then waiting again for plex respawn. Make it so when someone is in any room of the plex, the plex wont respawn. We understand the moving of the static plexes to the exploration system fixes both of these issues without needing to write any new code, but it brings us right back to why this thread was started in the first place. Anyways, thanks for taking the time to look at this change again. It is appreciated.
^ ThisThisThisThisThisThis
Seriously Olly hit the nail on the head here. CCP Dev's read that statement well and please understand what he's saying here. If it can be done please do it, don't simple take the easy road in this matter please!!!
Newest Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02OAZ3W0fXs |

NorthCrossroad
EVE University Ivy League
43
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 14:19:00 -
[362] - Quote
Hi
CCP Fozzie wrote:Explanation Rephrasing your explanation - you didn't "fixed" the farming problem. You just removed it. And also removed what can be called "PvP sites". So don't know how that change helds anything good in it. Just a tricky explanation to keep good face.
As for PvP spots you've mentioned - they really need to give something except PvP. To keep people in those spots. And it was given by a chance to run a plex from time to time and get some ISK. So the system you might be considering is actually the same plexes, but in different package. So the question rises again - why it was done in the first place? :) Several solutions to "farming" problem were suggested. Some were pretty good ones. |

Swifty Blowback
Republic University Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 15:11:00 -
[363] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: ... during this last release we went over some of the available data to look at how the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were serving their various purposes. Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, with the majority of the completions performed by the same small group of experienced players, some of which were clearly farming the content...
Thanks for the reply CCP Fozzie. One glaringly obvious question for you:
Did you split your metrics into high / low sec? Were the low sec DEDs being farmed by "a small group of experienced players"?
My experience with lowsec DEDs leads me to believe that in general, they were not farmed constantly like the high sec ones by a select few players. If your metrics show this, then there really isn't a problem having them in lowsec is there? |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
514
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 15:23:00 -
[364] - Quote
Devs are busy with merging dust bunnies into Eve, probably we have to keep this thread alive for next month or so before seeing another post with blue badge. In the meantime I will happily farm L4s in hisec. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
294
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 16:19:00 -
[365] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Another intriguing idea that this question leads to, however, is the possiblity of a type of plex variable that actually flags individuals as suspects upon entering.
This mechanic also has the potential to make some high sec exploration sites into PVP opportunities.
Just sayin'. |

Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 17:21:00 -
[366] - Quote
Would it be possible to have a "deactivated beacon" in DED complexes that a player can activate once they're scanned down?
Once activated they can act like Faction Warfare beacons that show up on everyone's overview. Then corporations that like using these for size controlled fights can scan, warp, and activate beacons.
I think it would also be useful to *not* allow players to DE-activate beacons and have activated beacons prevent the deadspace area from despawning until downtime.
I think this is obviously more difficult than Fozie's suggestion but keeps the things most people want. Exploration is still needed, there are still rewards in these DED complexes, and they can be used to control ship sizes in specific areas.
Thoughts? |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 18:56:00 -
[367] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content
"Hey guys, instead of making our lowsec/anysec PvE content more interesting as it seems people would rather fight at these sites than run them, how about we just remove them? That way we don't have to do any work..."
Is what this sounds like.
Like someone already mentioned, to eliminate all farming and some of the biggest culprits, remove mining and missions... And moon minerals... Or, create PvE content that's not easily farmed by using suggestions from players, some quite good ones in this here thread.
Now I understand y'all have a tough job and everything, and we are a bunch of whiny players, but really, it didn't even get mentioned other than in the patch notes, so how come it was such a big issue if y'all didn't even care enough to mention it, even in passing?
Meh.
A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Artimis kraw
Crimson Reach
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 21:10:00 -
[368] - Quote
Kane Rizzel wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content "Hey guys, instead of making our lowsec/anysec PvE content more interesting as it seems people would rather fight at these sites than run them, how about we just remove them? That way we don't have to do any work..." Is what this sounds like. Like someone already mentioned, to eliminate all farming and some of the biggest culprits, remove mining and missions... And moon minerals... Or, create PvE content that's not easily farmed by using suggestions from players, some quite good ones in this here thread. Now I understand y'all have a tough job and everything, and we are a bunch of whiny players, but really, it didn't even get mentioned other than in the patch notes, so how come it was such a big issue if y'all didn't even care enough to mention it, even in passing? Meh.
^this
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Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
519
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 21:25:00 -
[369] - Quote
Kane Rizzel wrote: Now I understand y'all have a tough job and everything, and we are a bunch of whiny players, but really, it didn't even get mentioned other than in the patch notes, so how come it was such a big issue if y'all didn't even care enough to mention it, even in passing?
Meh.
Last meeting before final release of expansion
"Guys, I think we should keep that thing as a surprise and only mention it briefly in patch notes" "To make people discover it and praise us for bashing farmers, right?" "Exactly my thinking." "Kinda let them explore about exploration buff?" "Ooh, I see what you did there. You're good, you..." "It will be EPIC!"
*slap, slap, hi5s around the table*
Few days later
*gasp* "Guys... GUYS?!" I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
116
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 22:21:00 -
[370] - Quote
Kane Rizzel wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content "Hey guys, instead of making our lowsec/anysec PvE content more interesting as it seems people would rather fight at these sites than run them, how about we just remove them? That way we don't have to do any work..." Now I understand y'all have a tough job and everything, and we are a bunch of whiny players, but really, it didn't even get mentioned other than in the patch notes, so how come it was such a big issue if y'all didn't even care enough to mention it, even in passing? Meh.
It was especially nice training for a carrier and gathering enough dough to afford 2 so me and some friends could bounce around to the static systems with all the new destroyers and redesigned frigates. We expected epic pve content because of the other people in this thread not because the rats were fun to shoot at....and with no high value loot in them there would have been no incentive to plan such a thing.
More time was spent on fireworks and snowballs...sad. |
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Hampton Krantz
Black Core Mining Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 05:20:00 -
[371] - Quote
I'd like to reiterate my point of favoring these complexes as a low skill pilot.
The biggest reason they were exciting is because I could get away with pirate's treasure. It's mathematically stupid to think that I can take out a dramiel without having T2 any type of offenses, especially versus some of these good frigate pilots. These complexes gave me something to actually get! My mainstay has been PVE, absolutely no question. I came to these complexes for the gold, and I got gold and pirates. I felt like I had never run into a 'botter', ever. Regardless of being an absolutely dreadful pvp'er I could still win by getting away with the gold (read: compete with characters that have 20 times my skill points).
I think the most influential point in this thread is that we simply want the complexes. |

Titus Veridius
Calamitous-Intent
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 05:47:00 -
[372] - Quote
Hampton Krantz wrote:I'd like to reiterate my point of favoring these complexes as a low skill pilot.
The biggest reason they were exciting is because I could get away with pirate's treasure. It's mathematically stupid to think that I can take out a dramiel without having T2 any type of offenses, especially versus some of these good frigate pilots. These complexes gave me something to actually get! My mainstay has been PVE, absolutely no question. I came to these complexes for the gold, and I got gold and pirates. I felt like I had never run into a 'botter', ever. Regardless of being an absolutely dreadful pvp'er I could still win by getting away with the gold (read: compete with characters that have 20 times my skill points).
I think the most influential point in this thread is that we simply want the complexes.
The problem wasn't with botters. The problem was that two 2/10s in Molden Heath and many more in other regions were being perma-afk-cloak-farmed in the third room by people like Djambul (Hrober).
However this wasn't a real problem, in the sense that it should have made for the static plexes being removed. It was an abuse of game mechanics, which should have been fixed by changing game mechanics (not letting ships fitting cloaks into the plex ect, or spawning webbing scramming rats on top of those who are in the plex for more than an hour) and not removing something who's net benefit was far greater than a 1 dimensional metric based on years old intentions could measure.
If they replace the static 2/10s with something different, to fix this, they will still have to modify game mechanics to prevent farmers. The difference is the methods being used to farm the old sites were well known....and the possible exploits for a newly created bandaid static will be unknown to most until they are widespread. CCP will have to fix this problem either way. Bringing back the static 2/10s is known quantity and fixing them a known quantity (more or less) and balancing and exploit fixing new replacement 2/10s an unknown quantity.
::rubs haired chin:: Hrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Also...CCP Fozzie, I'm looking at Battle Cruiser changes posted for the spring (obviously preliminary).....why does CCP hate Minmatar now? First the Jaguar gets stealth nerfed, and now the Hurricane gets nerfed again. Racist much? ; p
|

Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1170
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 06:53:00 -
[373] - Quote
Hampton Krantz wrote:Hi, my name's Hampton, and I am a carebear.
I dabbled in pvp nearly 100% unsuccessfully, but I dabble. I started because of these complexes; hearing about a 55m drop, I naturally checked it out. With sub 1 million skill points I was about to make a small fortune.. and meet pirates. I'm in no way a fast reflex, preemptive decision maker type of gamer required to be good at pvp in EVE. I did make a small fortune, and I did get blown up. I also survived long enough to see another pirate kill my pirate. I fully support these exciting static plexes. I was deeply saddened when I checked the DED map to see they were all gone. Now I'm looking back into AFK mining since it's not exciting for my low SP character to try to PVP (read: go into lowsec) with nearly zero reward. Are there opportunities as a low SP player in lowsec? Sure, but I don't know about them. Something simple as an onboard scanner made me a part of a community for awhile, and now I have no reason to be. I also have no reason to stop my mining barge 5
I don't have time to find a niche lucrative business in lowsec as a carebear or casual player.
Please bring back the complexes and I will continue getting blown up
This. Where I am. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
81
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 10:26:00 -
[374] - Quote
Wow a lot has been talked about since I last was here (just read 80+ posts to get myself up to date).
Also before I get onto my main topic for this post, I want to point out something I just did, I just read the 80 posts that I missed so that I could keep up with and understand the entirety of this conversation. Now CCP Fozzie (and others), I love you as much as the next player, but I must insist that anyone looking to contribute meaningfully to this thread give a read from the beginning. From the start we assumed many of the reasons as to why the plexes were removed and gave some good ideas and some ways to fix the content, and some of those ideas still stand (imho) as good fixes. So just because page 1 happened so long ago, donGÇÖt forget it exists. Now you might indeed have read the entire post, in which case I would just like to point out that we all ready discussed and said that we didn't want them as you have proposed.
The Reason I bring that up is because it has been said many times that WE DONGÇÖT WANT ARENAS. Or rather we donGÇÖt want complexes that are dedicated arenas. The DED sites provided enough incentive for people to risk fights for isk, and for others it provided places that people could expect to find fights due to the inherent value of these places. As it has been pointed out, beacons all ready exist in low sec such as ruined minmatar outposts, and not to mention things like planets or asteroid belts. The issue is that there is no monetary incentive to these. I will admit to farming these complexes, but here is the thing, I was 100% willing to give them up to someone who could best me in a fight, or have the connections to bring enough people to take me down. But the thing is, I loved them most for the PVP, and the reason that happened was because of the PVE, not because it was at a beacon, or the terrain of the accel gates, but because of all of the above combined.
Not to be too self serving but I made what I thought was a decent suggestion on how to fix the complexes back on page one, so I will restate it here in bullet form: 1.If someone is in the final room, all the gates are unlocked leading to that room (if someone is in the second room, all gates are unlocked, third room all gates.... etc) 2.Cloaks do not work beyond the third room (read full post on page 1 for more details, also there are a lot of other really good ideas back there as well that warrant consideration)
I think that this really sums it up. It stops AFK cloaking for farming, and if anyone intends on camping the third room they can be attacked the entire time. Of course there are other suggestions that work well, but the main point is we want them back.
Lastly Michael Harari has it right, your metric at least seems to be broken. There used to be soooo many kills in Heild, and systems containing these complexes did in fact see a lot more frig action. It is unfair to look at high sec and then make a change to lowsec.
|

Titus Veridius
Calamitous-Intent
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 18:28:00 -
[375] - Quote
Also Sylvous has no reason to fly Dramiels (Dramiels which got stealth nerfed right to the antique shop) without static 2/10s... we must restore this national icon to its previous authentic glory, or SAURON the DECEIVER WILL COVER ALL THE LANDS OF MIDDLE EARTH IN A SECOND DARKNESS!!!!!! |

Xi 'xar
The Tuskers
35
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 22:32:00 -
[376] - Quote
Turgesson wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, primary purpose
Thanks for the candid explanation but I didn't start playing eve for the interesting pve content. I'll just keep high sec ganking till the isk runs out and bail now. o/My advice would be to stop trying to make shooting red plus signs and rocks interesting. As far as adding arenas, I think they should come right along with dance emotes for the CQ dolls.
Bye bye Turgey
Can I haz your stuff? http://reduplication.wordpress.com/category/explore-low-sec/
http://reduplication.wordpress.com/category/live-low-sec/
http://mrsnypes.blogspot.com/2010/07/burnt-lands.html
|

ako ako
Sonoran Sun Legion Legio Damnata
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 23:46:00 -
[377] - Quote
Thanks Fozzie for a reply. To your proposal I strongly believe there has to be something to entice people to want to head to that beacon, so far I like Hans J's sec status tag drops. |

Turgesson
Five-0
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 00:25:00 -
[378] - Quote
Xi 'xar wrote:Turgesson wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, primary purpose
Thanks for the candid explanation but I didn't start playing eve for the interesting pve content. I'll just keep high sec ganking till the isk runs out and bail now. o/My advice would be to stop trying to make shooting red plus signs and rocks interesting. As far as adding arenas, I think they should come right along with dance emotes for the CQ dolls. Bye bye Turgey Can I haz your stuff?
No, I'm using what I got to burn what I can in high sec but I'll gladly give ya back all of your stuff...and Sailor's...and Vol's...and Xyne's (btw thanks for leaving him to farm for faction mods)...and Amber's...and...hey when did Tuskers start accepting bads?
(Just think Fozzie, without that static plex me and this guy would have no reason to screw with each other, weeks and months worth of fighting would have never happened, the Celestis of doom would have never existed and good ol' Xi'Xar here would have never figured out how to defeat a frigate killer cruiser with a frigate.) |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
22
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 07:46:00 -
[379] - Quote
You know what I find amazing about this thread?
We got people from nearly everywhere posting about this. We have Tuskers, R1fta, solo pilots, what not. We even have Northy from EVE Uni chiming in.
CCP, please just listen to this and don't mess it up (again). |

Besbin
Anguis Sicarios
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 14:50:00 -
[380] - Quote
I've had many good fights at the 2/10 in Gerper. I farmed this myself a little bit, but after a while, it became evident that the loot from it simply wasn't enough for a capsuleer of my age. For newbies, however, the frequent 10-20 mill drops was a fortune. Since Gerper is in a dead end close to high sec, there's a frequent surge of newbies coming through here, making for quite a lot of fights (although many of them rather ganks).
So my two cents: Keep 2/10 small money for vets and a fortune for newbies. And have them close to high sec in less frequented areas. |
|

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 10:26:00 -
[381] - Quote
Bump.... |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
58
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 13:19:00 -
[382] - Quote
To be honest guys, I think we're beating a dead horse here. CCP don't care as we are a small demographic, their PvE content is so bad they would rather hide it than let the players take it and make it interesting via PvP. Kind of defeats the whole sandbox concept that eve and CCP were famous for. While farming has always been a problem and I agree that highsec static plexes were not the smartest idea, lowsec plexes were controlled via the players who had the tools available to deal with farmers. Anyone who tried to farm the gusandall plex can tell you, they learnt a lesson in a very violent fashion, but of course CCP won't include that into their 'metrics'
I'm not even upset anymore, just very disappointed. A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
532
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 15:38:00 -
[383] - Quote
Yeah, I kinda have same feelings as Kane for a couple of days now.
I don't believe dev responsible for this change was so frikking sick or busy with daily duties to not have even 5 minutes to post some response here. And what Fozzie posted was just utterly stupid. Sorry but "our metrics show farming in hisec" is not an explanation why you butchered non-FW lowsec pvp. And yeah, "all places in Eve are dedicated to pvp" 
So this is last kick from me. If keeping thread alive for over a month with participation of lowsec dwellers from all over New Eden didn't do the trick I have no fking idea what will. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
468
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 15:44:00 -
[384] - Quote
I really dont get what CCP gains from making PVP less accessible to new players |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
195
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 16:55:00 -
[385] - Quote
For 20 pages we have said a lot of words. We have nursed the topic back to the top of the sub forum, storm twitter, posted in blogs, complained to the CSM and in general done our best to not just push our agenda but define what and why it is. We've answered questions, answered criticism and hopefully enlightened people.
At this point there isn't a lot more to say other then the waiting for a response type of thing. Fozzie did post and it was the expected "Not getting it back". He is not in charge of this project and his massive, growing threadnought for the BC changes is where his attention lays.
So we sit here, with a point of notice but nudge to what may be. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
117
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 14:58:00 -
[386] - Quote
I think we can bump this thing for a year and it wouldn't change anything. If we could think of a way to start doing damage with enough publicity so the bears and "new players" know why it's happening then we might see a lil love.
Venture gankfest might shake up some attention to our actual numbers if we worked together. I think this change was also a push for all of us to join FW but turning instead towards high sec?...on their new bearbarge? I doubt that was part of their "metrics". With our luck it'll probably just cause a venture ehp buff but who knows. They do tend to snap into some kind of action when we start to cause cancelled accounts in "secure" space.
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed so others may have better ideas on what could be done but from what I've seen the time for talking is over...CAN YOOOOUUUU DIG IT.
|

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
23
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 15:45:00 -
[387] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:I really dont get what CCP gains from making PVP less accessible to new players, nerfing one of the few income sources in lowsec and annihilating one of the largest small gang and solo pvp communities.
Maybe they thing it will drive more people to null or something, or actually increase lowsec population by reducing the areas where pirates can well....pirate?
That, or they just don't give a damn about the non-aligned people, those who do what they like when they like to do it and don't like being pushed around, CTA'ed, sent to bash PoSes and so on.
We have no real voice in the CSM, mainly because organizing us is like herding cats, and we're a tiny minority of players, so we are easy to ignore. The fact that we "misused" a game mechanic to create our "life style" (in reality we turned a turd PvE element into a gold mine of "emergent gameplay" - I guess you can polish some turds, until they get replaced into complete crap) is just a testament of how under-represented the solo and small scale frig/dessy lowsec pirate is and how little CCP cares about our play style in general. |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
59
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 16:37:00 -
[388] - Quote
Welcome to EVE, where you can be anything you want to be, but only what we say you can be and as long as it fits with our metrics, which much like our logs, show nothing. A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Jerick Ludhowe
The Nyan Cat Pirates The Retirement Club
347
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 21:10:00 -
[389] - Quote
So who's the bad developer that championed this extremely poor change?... |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
470
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 22:00:00 -
[390] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:So who's the bad developer that championed this extremely poor change?...
Its not fozzie, although fozzie drew the short straw in being forced to come here. |
|

Miss Carry
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
7
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 08:22:00 -
[391] - Quote
Hmm, this is an interesting discussion.
So it's not just about the gate-mechanics, but also about something to fight over.
Putting the gate back in doesn't seem to cut it as i can tell from the responses.
So what we want is some "unfarmable" kind of treasure that's tempting enough for people to go there and fight over it? With ship restrictions and all.
I think the sad faces are less about the old plex, but more about a lack of shinies to fight over. And the DED's served that role, even with it's flaws.
It would be an opportunity to rework non-fw lowsec in general but that would take a long time, considering ccp has other projects in queue.
The suggestion of putting them back in without treasure is one step towards us, wich i appretiate, but not enough.
Let's keep making suggestions and be optimistic and not be grumpy :)
|

Turgesson
Five-0
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 14:52:00 -
[392] - Quote
Miss Carry wrote:
Let's keep making suggestions and be optimistic and not be grumpy :)
You know as well as I do that isn't going to work. We can sit here and talk about it until we're blue in the face and we will still get "arenas" designed without our suggestions. If you want your stuff back you better start shooting things they don't want you to shoot and force this issue to the top of the wipeboard in these "planning" meetings.
I like the Venture idea...no herding cats needed. It's cheap, you can do it solo at -10, they are everywhere, 2 shots off a thrasher usually strips the ship and cracks the pod before the cops show up and "new players" are the ones who will whine the best for us to be returned to our natural habitats. Add in scan boats to round out the preferred target list to what 90% of potential new subscribers fly in their first few months and sprinkle with autopiloting pods.
I wouldn't consider taking some kind of action as being grumpy and it doesn't have to stop us from giving suggestions. Really everything that can be said has been and if the past is any guide talking does nothing. DOING something has an effect.
(CCP Bettik was the one who worked on this stuff. I've been telling everyone I gank it's his fault they lost their stuff and he says they should go back to WoW until he's finished making "interesting pve experiences" for them.) |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
536
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 15:06:00 -
[393] - Quote
Turgesson wrote:(CCP Bettik was the one who worked on this stuff. I've been telling everyone I gank it's his fault they lost their stuff and he says they should go back to WoW until he's finished making "interesting pve experiences" for them.)
Heheheh, waiting for "CCP Bettik ganked my venture" on GD :)
I know I said I won't post here anymore but my metrics don't show enough farming on forums. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Caldain Morrow
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 18:53:00 -
[394] - Quote
Has anyone thought of keeping the static 1,2/10 plexes and have them drop only pirate faction loot in stead of deadspace loot and open them up for exploration as well and have the exploration sites drop the deadspace loot? We keep our existing dueling space with a little less farming potential but open up the DED sites to entry level explorers. Doing a 3/10 in a Dessie is difficult never mind a 4/10. MOAH emergent game play not less. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
102
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 22:04:00 -
[395] - Quote
Caldain Morrow wrote:Has anyone thought of keeping the static 1,2/10 plexes and have them drop only pirate faction loot in stead of deadspace loot and open them up for exploration as well and have the exploration sites drop the deadspace loot? We keep our existing dueling space with a little less farming potential but open up the DED sites to entry level explorers. Doing a 3/10 in a Dessie is difficult never mind a 4/10. MOAH emergent game play not less.
To late this thread is no longer about the reinstatement of the 2/10's and is instead about how we will plan our revenge starting with a few 'CCP Bettik caused this Gank' roams in high-sec.....
|

Olleybear
I R' Carebear
175
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 23:18:00 -
[396] - Quote
Vincent R'lyeh wrote:plan our revenge starting with a few 'CCP Bettik caused this Gank' roams in high-sec..... You know, this right here is just another reason why I love this game. Both because someone came up with the idea to blame a specific dev for hi-sec ganks and because CCP allows pilots to do this kind of stuff.
 When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
86
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 08:45:00 -
[397] - Quote
Miss Carry wrote: Let's keep making suggestions and be optimistic and not be grumpy :)
I would tend to agree with you on this one but I need to cut some slack for those who are ending their calm well thought conversation. Its been over a month since we first brought this up and still the DEV who is responsible for overseeing these changes has said nothing, if I were being ignored like that I would be pissed too and throwing $#!+ around as well... wait, I am being ignored aren't I?
At any rate the way I see it is that the players have done a excellent job listing their complaints, discussing ideas and suggestions to the problems, but we are being ignored. Without input from a DEV who is serious about tackling the issue discussion will flounder and eventually peter off until this is a forgotten topic at the bottom of the forums. Sad to say if CCP wants to execute this strategy they can, and it will work seeing as without DEV input we very quickly can cover all our ideas since they will not be met with the criticism needed from a DEV who cares about low sec and the vibrant PVP that these PVE complexes led to. Also if CCP doesn't want to do anything I suppose they don't have to since it is their product.
With the current prices of the potential drops from the DED 1 & 2 sites there will be many a assault ship wreck sitting around those plexes should they be reinstated. Honestly I find that this is a great opportunity for CCP to foster even more PVP. With the high sec versions gone, those seeking the "easy" isk will have to fight for the right to be able to get a chance at the loot, and with the prices so high, many people will want to take the risk to go after the possibility. The removal of the highsec complexes was a golden idea, and would have reinvigorated PVP in lowsec on a whole new scale. Though admittedly having removed them entirely for a time will only work to bolster the PVP had at these complexes should they be reinstated now since the supply of the DED modules is slowly dwindling.
Again I also advocate for some changes to the complexes to avoid the exploitation of being able to cloak and wait for the overseers to spawn in the final room and farm the complex at minimal risk, but that has been discussed in great detail throughout this thread.
To any DEV that has a interest in doing something positive for the community, take a good look at this thread and give it a read in its entirety. We the dwellers of low sec seem to have an idea on how these work, and how they can be improved, and if you disagree with us, give us your thoughts and opinions so we can either understand why these changes have been made or give us the opportunity to show you why you are wrong (we've put ourselves out there for criticism).
CCP boasts that the game is community driven, and that the players make significant contributions to the changes that effect the course of game development. The challenge that our community is trying to give you now is: MAKE THAT STATEMENT TRUE.
Sylvous |
|

CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
1339

|
Posted - 2013.01.15 16:16:00 -
[398] - Quote
Guys I appreciate you're really frustrated, but making the thread even more hostile than it already is isn't going to attract the developer attention you're looking for. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
|

Swifty Blowback
Republic University Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 16:24:00 -
[399] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Guys I appreciate you're really frustrated, but making the thread even more hostile than it already is isn't going to attract the developer attention you're looking for.
Any hints as to what will? |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
544
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 16:32:00 -
[400] - Quote
I didn't realize we are hostile. Are you saying hisec ganking is no longer viable option and will be frowned upon? Oh boy, that escalated quickly. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
|

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
62
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 16:56:00 -
[401] - Quote
Didn't realise this was hostile... A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Turgesson
Five-0
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 17:28:00 -
[402] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Guys I appreciate you're really frustrated, but making the thread even more hostile than it already is isn't going to attract the developer attention you're looking for.
With all due respect, history disagrees with you and even your presence on this page is proof that it will.
Remember it was CCP's decision to not give anyone a heads up that this change was going to come with retribution so we could participate in testing and suggest things before any KNOWN harm was done. I would say almost all of us opened our patch notes to see what goodies we got to only see our home systems made into ghost towns.
I've added a bio to direct people to your forums with the reason they are being mass murdered in high sec and loosing their only possesions in New Eden. This isn't meant as a hostile act against CCP it's just presure and numbers to make our end of the metrics matter. I don't want to be hostile to any developer willing to at least meet us halfway with returned plexes in LOW SEC. We can deal with drop rates, types of loot, ways to gain keys/unlocking the gates full time, variations in the respawn timers, etc..after they are returned and work on them until we are both satisfied.
You don't have an unreasonable bunch here but a simple "NO, now let's talk about no loot arenas" isn't going to fly. |

MrDiao
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 02:09:00 -
[403] - Quote
Turgesson wrote:with returned plexes in LOW SEC. We can deal with drop rates, types of loot, ways to gain keys/unlocking the gates full time, variations in the respawn timers, etc..after they are returned and work on them until we are both satisfied. .
The answer should be "No". Exploration system should do what it supposed to do, if you want to encourage low-sec people's activities, introduce another idea called "low-sec static deadspace to encourage low-sec pvp", not by abusing the exploration complex system, especially for what aims at helping the newbies to start the game. |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
268
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 03:13:00 -
[404] - Quote
MrDiao wrote:Turgesson wrote:with returned plexes in LOW SEC. We can deal with drop rates, types of loot, ways to gain keys/unlocking the gates full time, variations in the respawn timers, etc..after they are returned and work on them until we are both satisfied. . The answer should be "No". Exploration system should do what it supposed to do, if you want to encourage low-sec people's activities, introduce another idea called "low-sec static deadspace to encourage low-sec pvp", not by abusing the exploration complex system, especially for what aims at helping the newbies to start the game.
Oh good, another person who doesn't live in low-sec and has no idea what they're talking about.
Just fyi, the old 2/10's were a fantastic place for newbies to get into PVP and provided a loot drop that didn't take months of training to obtain all at the same time.
Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
544
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 07:46:00 -
[405] - Quote
Goon talking against abusing game mechanics - priceless. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Volstruis
The Tuskers
10
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 08:50:00 -
[406] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Guys I appreciate you're really frustrated, but making the thread even more hostile than it already is isn't going to attract the developer attention you're looking for.
I think you'll find ignoring people and trying to inspire meaningless debate will lead to increased hostility ... This is 'serius business' TM after all :)
If the answer is no, we are not putting them back, we've told you why, htfu, then just say it. I don't understand why we need to lobby for developer attention, discuss a million random things. If this thread can convince you to change them back to the way they were in low sec, and this thread will do it, people will keep posting and getting more hardcore about it.
|

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 09:35:00 -
[407] - Quote
Laktos wrote:
Just fyi, the old 2/10's were a fantastic place for newbies to get into PVP and provided a loot drop that didn't take months of training to obtain, all at the same time.
Thats how I got started 1v1 pvping, fit out a dirt cheap PvP Rifter and went out. I would get some PvP and learn something, or a drop. Better than running 4's like a robot.
|

Alex Medvedov
Gunpoint Diplomacy
31
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 12:59:00 -
[408] - Quote
As the long time frigate pilot and frequent 2/10 plex visitor I would like to add a few words to this topic.
First the idea of simple accelaration gates which was proposed by CCP will not work, as was pointed out already, because there will be no incentives for pilots to frequently visit or more importanly to stay for a some time in that empty pocket.
Let me demonstrate how the pirates think. Nobody sane likes the camping - regardless if you are about to camp acceleration gate, gate or a station. So if you are on the roam you jump into system and check your scanner - have you found no ships around? You will move on. Thats the problem if tose empty pockets in space, nobody will be staying there just because theres small chance once a day some bored dude might come along.
The plexes on the other had were different.
1) To complete them the visitor had to spend some time there and therefore he created a window of opportunity for any pvp pilot lucky enough to be around.
2) The plexes were worth visiting even if you were the only one in local - you were able to do the plex, gain some money and wait for any opposition to show up.
3) The plexes were attracting not only pirates but the pve playeyers as well, which in turn provided the wider target selection for pirates and provided sometimes the first taste of EVE PVP combat for pvers.
Truth is that the plexes could be camped, the plex mechanics was rather imperfect, but still they were able to drag some more people to low-sec, especially in areas like Molden Heath where 4 of them were relatively close to to each other. And thats preciselly what low sec needs - more activity! And more activity needs more opportunities to do something!
Can really see how would the reintroduction of 1/10 and 2/10 plexes into low sec brake anything ballance wise. Those plex rewards are not so high after all. |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
120
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:20:00 -
[409] - Quote
MrDiao wrote:Turgesson wrote:with returned plexes in LOW SEC. We can deal with drop rates, types of loot, ways to gain keys/unlocking the gates full time, variations in the respawn timers, etc..after they are returned and work on them until we are both satisfied. . The answer should be "No". Exploration system should do what it supposed to do, if you want to encourage low-sec people's activities, introduce another idea called "low-sec static deadspace to encourage low-sec pvp", not by abusing the exploration complex system, especially for what aims at helping the newbies to start the game.
So instead of putting these newbies into a potentially exciting low sec pve scenario where they could meet people who can teach them things when they have the right attitude they should be put in direct competition with the lifetime carebear explorers and just play race to the loot in high sec where they can't take any preemptive aggressive action?
Don't think for a minute just because someone is a newbie that they couldn't smoke a 4yr old carebear in a low sec static. Let's not make believe moving these sites to high sec exploration did anything for newbs....it actually hurt the truly new players worse than us. |

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 20:34:00 -
[410] - Quote
Looking through the CSM minutes from December.... I can't find any mention of this. Anyone else?
(I could miss it though as it it over one hundred pages of text!) |
|

Etuura Zellis
The Tuskers
27
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 20:52:00 -
[411] - Quote
Did a keyword search and found nothing, perhaps it was deemed NDA? Could've swore Hans had said he brought it up. |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
202
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 21:00:00 -
[412] - Quote
He said he chased Devs and talked to them. It was not part of the scheduled events which is what the notes are. I'm sure that there were plenty of side discussions for various smaller topics.
When the patch notes came out and the winter summit topics were put up there was no place for us to request more information on this or a review. The Summit is rather time constricted and the topic did not have a time slot for it.
Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
548
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 21:10:00 -
[413] - Quote
Quote:Hans took a moment to remind the team that the removal of the DED Level 1 and 2 static complexes in low-sec was a huge loss for the PvP community, and said this may have the potential to bring back some of these fights via increased belt traffic.
Bolded "this" being Tags4Sec which were discussed atm. Funny thing: nobody said a word in response to Hans' remark. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
62
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 23:53:00 -
[414] - Quote
INCREASED BELT TRAFFIC?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Turgesson
Five-0
27
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 01:11:00 -
[415] - Quote
Maybe next time when Hans brings up a topic it'll get more attention than a confused look around the room...
After reading the beginning of the minutes something just doesn't make any sense. If you have a feature that caters to all 3 tiers of the layered model for customer experience why in the world would you remove it? I honestly don't think the people who made this decision understand anything about it and thought adding more sites to scan down in high sec would capture more short term customers while at the same time underestimating the amount of long term loyal customers who enjoy this feature.
I'd write more on the subject but my gcc timer is up and I'm allowed out of the penalty box...here venture venture.
(I was going to step it up and start smartbombing all the afk retrievers around but why help the overmining problem by default. Leave those alone.) |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
476
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 11:31:00 -
[416] - Quote
If hans is still following the thread, could you tell us what went on? |

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 18:06:00 -
[417] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Guys I appreciate you're really frustrated, but making the thread even more hostile than it already is isn't going to attract the developer attention you're looking for. Reading through this thread I am amazed at how respectful it is. There are no threats, no raging, just a persistent (mostly) polite reinforcement that removing these sites destroys an emergent gameplay mechanic enjoyed by low-sec players. Your post above, however, is (aside from some trolls) probably the single most hostile post in this entire thread! Yes we are trying to attract developer attention in the very forum that was setup to discuss features and ideas. Even though we have mostly been ignored we have continued to politely push this topic because it is important to us.
Please CCP, engage with your community and don't talk down to us.
|

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
123
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 00:21:00 -
[418] - Quote
Would sending a few shapely ladies with loose morals up to Iceland for a cake and blumpkin party be nice enough to get these back? If it's a lady in charge maybe I can come up and give some good sloppy head?...I'll bet Hans didn't try THAT!
Screw developer attention at this point I want to speak with the Unifex person at the top of the heap...these underlings move too slow and are slowly ruining your product. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
476
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 11:05:00 -
[419] - Quote
Goliath, the reason people are getting mad is because I made this thread literally right after patch notes came out, which was the first time we were told about this. This change wasnt on SISI, wasnt announced earlier. (as a side note, why would any change go live without testing?)
It took nearly THREE WEEKS (18 days) for a dev (you) to come in and say "oh yeah, we have seen this thread"
It took over FIVE WEEKS for a dev (Fozzie) to come in an actually explain something, and fozzie wasnt even involved in this change!
This is barely even about the 2/10 plexes anymore, but more about a perceived lack of CCP response. We STILL havent heard from the dev who made this decision, and its been 2 months. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
106
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 12:58:00 -
[420] - Quote
Who with leet artistic skills wants to whip up a nice 'Bring back the 2/10's in Low-Sec' A4 poster which can be scattered liberally around the Veto London Meet on 9th Feb? |
|

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 14:12:00 -
[421] - Quote
Toterra wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Guys I appreciate you're really frustrated, but making the thread even more hostile than it already is isn't going to attract the developer attention you're looking for. Reading through this thread I am amazed at how respectful it is. There are no threats, no raging, just a persistent (mostly) polite reinforcement that removing these sites destroys an emergent gameplay mechanic enjoyed by low-sec players.
This....tbh I think this thread has been the first one I ever posted on, after years of playing....it just hit a button. I play by anti-pirate rules, and by alliance rules I dont talk much in local. Its been nice to see guys you've been fighting against for awhile laying out quality arguments that would help the lowsec community as a whole.
You've got anti-pirate and pirates united in opposition to this change CCP...I may need to go to church heh.
|

Turgesson
Five-0
27
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 19:08:00 -
[422] - Quote
SUMMARY FOR CCP (Sorry if I miss anything..I'll edit it if I do. I gleened a lot of this from multiple threads)
1: We agree that high sec statics were a problem and were overdue for removal. Adding them to the high sec exploration system was a good move and would prepare new explorers for the low sec static gate/pve mechanics. This same "graduation" could be thought about for the hop from 3-4/10s being part of the low sec exploration system and added NPC null statics of those types?
2: We cannot give you other suggestions for "arena" type senarios because these statics are exactly what we would suggest. While the inside of these sites restricted ship types the fights outside the gate did not...wars have been fought over these.
3: We don't agree with the metrics used to judge this feature. Was it the ded loot drops being too valuable and being completed by the same people in LOW SEC?
They really weren't that valuable when compared to farming in high sec. Some of those missions have better faction and implant drop rates than the dangerous low sec statics. In this case, the risk was worth the reward and the carrot was working. On this topic we remain open to changes in types or rates of drops that won't rot the carrots.
Low sec statics being completed by the same people just shows the residents of those systems enjoyed them and our traffic is inherently low because of low incentives...so did the metrics take the normal local count into consideration? These "farmers" are also the people in this thread who regularly recruit people and teach new players with this feature. With the main goal of an "interesting pve experiance" we were the interesting part. Think of us as the interactive "boss in the last room" who may hire you.
4: Would it require too much time to solve the gate issues by just unlocking all of them or adding key drops to the belt rats? Could you guys throw them on buckingham like that so we can help you refine and accelerate the process of "fixing" them?
5: "We feel that as a whole this change will be a net positive, although I completely understand that it may not seem the case to those people who strongly benefited from the previous mechanic." - CCP Fozzie.There were no PEOPLE that strongly benefited from these sites. LOW SEC as a total benefited. Removing this feature and expecting a net postive in low sec is inept...sorry to use that word but it fits and is a reason for some hostility.
6: Any of us not interested in faction warfare will still not join it. I would personally rather do a naked bellyflop into a pit full of pecker eating zombies.
7: We are not taking NO for an answer. You unknowingly broke the camel's back with a lot of us. Considering you have representitives here from all backrounds in agreeement it would be unwise for CCP to ignore this issue or try to steer the conversation to "new arenas" any further. |

Baron1499
Five-0
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 23:32:00 -
[423] - Quote
Good job on the summary Turgesson. I don't know about the whole pecker eating zombie thing, but I would rather play WOW than join faction warfare... never mind that might be just as bad. |

Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 06:41:00 -
[424] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Guys I appreciate you're really frustrated, but making the thread even more hostile than it already is isn't going to attract the developer attention you're looking for.

*Blink*
In my humble opinion, I see a group of dedicated people that have come together to voice their concerns about a feature that they not only enjoyed but some LIVED by. They are frustrated because without notice or discussion, beyond a simple line in an volume of patch notes, that feature disappeared.
We all understand that this is CCP's game and if you so desired you could populate it fuzzy kittens everywhere (don't ask).
All we are saying to you "HEY, WE WERE PLAYING WITH THAT!" and would like those plexes back.
I personally don't think it's game breaking to at least the restore lowsec plexes.
As far as the arena idea, without the"bait", the prey will not come to the watering hole... |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 19:54:00 -
[425] - Quote
Thanks for the summary Turg, lays it out nicely. |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
125
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 15:14:00 -
[426] - Quote
I'm fairly certain this is the real reason they were removed:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194411&find=unread
CCP is making the "blue loot" extremely rare to make foolish newbs buy plex to afford it. I don't think I would have to convince anyone that the unrated plexes in low sec have spawn/escalation rates about as good as the anomalies and have been that way for a while. If you doubt me run a string of provisional outposts and let me know what ya get...now run a string of 5-6/10s.
Now I understand the metrics. Predatory marketing at its finest....good job CCP! I'm sure your vets will never notice this type of stuff when you post reasons for feature removals that make absolutely no sense. |

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
603
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 16:31:00 -
[427] - Quote
CCP: what if sites like these were cosmic anomalies that popped up on the overview once opened ala FW plexes? No need to probe them down so they can be done while roaming for PVP, can be looked for and done by new players, but they can't be farmed over and over. |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
65
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 17:21:00 -
[428] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:I'm fairly certain this is the real reason they were removed: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194411&find=unreadCCP is making the "blue loot" extremely rare to make foolish newbs buy plex to afford it. I don't think I would have to convince anyone that the unrated plexes in low sec have spawn/escalation rates about as good as the anomalies and have been that way for a while. If you doubt me run a string of provisional outposts and let me know what ya get...now run a string of 5-6/10s. Now I understand the metrics. Predatory marketing at its finest....good job CCP! I'm sure your vets will never notice this type of stuff when you post reasons for feature removals that make absolutely no sense.
Ooh, on the plus side, at least they stopped 2/10 plex farming
A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Tsubutai
Drifting Falling
151
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 19:11:00 -
[429] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Back in the day when most of the DED complexes were moved from static spawns to the exploration system, the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were left static because it was thought that leaving them accessible for people who had not yet learned how to probe would benefit new players. A happy side effect of that decision (that most of you are very familiar with) was that the lowsec plexes became geographical landmarks that give people a location to fight over to a certain extent.
One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage): What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?
IMO, the success of the static 1/10 and 2/10 plexes as combat hotspots was down to a combination of factors:
i) Everyone knew where they were, so you could create roaming routes specifically to hit several in succession ii) They provided good enough rewards to warrant spending a few minutes running them if there was no one to fight; this meant sitting still in one place and making yourself easy for other people to find, greatly increasing the likelihood of getting a fight iii) They could be completed in pvp-fit ships, so you didn't have to bring a gimped pve setup or fit a probe launcher if you wanted to run them (which in turn meant that if someone interrupted you while you were running one, you weren't obliged to run away due to being fit for pve) iv) They were limited in number, so if you got jumped in a plex before finishing it, you couldn't just move a few systems over and farm a different site; you had to either stand your ground or cede the plex and go do something else
To be successful, any potential replacement would have to reproduce all four of those factors; the gated pvp arenas you proposed would fail because they don't have good enough rewards to warrant sticking around to run them if there's no one there to fight.
The idea of replacing them with plexes that drop tradeable tags that could be redeemed for sec status (and/or faction standing) gains is more interesting, although it would depend heavily on their market value. A payout of tags that could be sold for 30-50m would be about right, putting them in the same ballpark as FW small plexes at a decent tier. That would also help to eliminate the regional disparity in the values of the old static plexes, where the blood/sansha/serpentis statics dropped relatively low value deadspace loot (ANPs, SARs, and prop mods, which were typically worth ~30m at most) whereas the gurista and angel plexes could drop much more valuable c- and b-type shield boosters.
I'd also like to address one factual inaccuracy in your post:
Quote:The benefits of this change [removing the static plexes] will be wider access to the pve content provided by these plexes and hopefully more people exploring lowsec as a whole This is impossible - under the new system, the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes only spawn in highsec, so there is no way that the change would provide any impetus to explore lowsec. |

Olleybear
I R' Carebear
175
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 21:35:00 -
[430] - Quote
If the static plexes arent brought back to low sec with anti-farming fixes, I want to be cuddled by the dev(s) that decided to remove them. My inner carebear is broken hearted now and I need some personalized consolation.
Word of warning though. Bear is in my character / corp name for more than one reason and when the dev(s) begin spooning me, they will quickly find out just how hairy my bottom really is.
That mental image alone should be more than enough incentive to get the statics put back in.
 When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |
|

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 10:34:00 -
[431] - Quote
Ok Olley, that shite cracked me up. :) |

Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 13:45:00 -
[432] - Quote
Well currently CCP actions allowing the low sec to be only barrier to blue booting null - so reducing the "value" to be in null - they shrink this barrier ;)
|

Turgesson
Five-0
33
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:47:00 -
[433] - Quote
Kane Rizzel wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:I'm fairly certain this is the real reason they were removed: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194411&find=unreadCCP is making the "blue loot" extremely rare to make foolish newbs buy plex to afford it. I don't think I would have to convince anyone that the unrated plexes in low sec have spawn/escalation rates about as good as the anomalies and have been that way for a while. If you doubt me run a string of provisional outposts and let me know what ya get...now run a string of 5-6/10s. Now I understand the metrics. Predatory marketing at its finest....good job CCP! I'm sure your vets will never notice this type of stuff when you post reasons for feature removals that make absolutely no sense. Ooh, on the plus side, at least they stopped 2/10 plex farming
And unleashed a bunch of outlaws on high sec targeting people right inside Tier 1 and 2 of their layered model for customers. They really should edit those CSM minutes better to not let us know exactly where to hit their wallet. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
560
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:16:00 -
[434] - Quote
Turgesson wrote:Kane Rizzel wrote: Ooh, on the plus side, at least they stopped 2/10 plex farming
And unleashed a bunch of outlaws on high sec targeting people right inside Tier 1 and 2 of their layered model for customers. They really should edit those CSM minutes better to not let us know exactly where to hit their wallet.
How was it at last fanfest? "We give you tools, you find a way how to abuse them?" :)
I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
66
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:57:00 -
[435] - Quote
but in this case it's more like "We take away the tools and then we ignore you" A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
270
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 13:10:00 -
[436] - Quote
Still waiting for the promised discourse with the developer responsible. Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Turgesson
Five-0
36
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:05:00 -
[437] - Quote
I made that summary the way I would if I had a vendor telling me lies. Give them another week or three to figure out how to outsmart us with more bull. |

Primae Nocte
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:16:00 -
[438] - Quote
As far as I can tell, after spending 10+ hours scanning. The number of low-sec sites to explore is ridiculously low for North American timezone. This is just a massive minus to low-sec. Don't pretend that there is anything good coming from this change. Please put it back. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
92
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:39:00 -
[439] - Quote
Primae Nocte wrote:As far as I can tell, after spending 10+ hours scanning. The number of low-sec sites to explore is ridiculously low for North American timezone. This is just a massive minus to low-sec. Don't pretend that there is anything good coming from this change. Please put it back.
While I do appreciate seeing yet another person putting their voice towards the cause (thanks mate!), I do feel that I need to point out that your reasons are not what we are looking for.
Yes it may be true that the number of exploration sites in low sec are not that high, but its not exploration sites we want. Exploration sites are a PVE isk making activity that the bulk of us can agree that we do appreciate because losing ships costs isk. What we want back is our static plexes not because of the PVE aspect, but because of the combat it instills in the area. The reason we like it is because yes it can be seen as a source of isk generation, but it also is for the bulk of us a source of purpose. Something to fight over. Because of the value of these places which remain in one location making them easy for anybody to get to they become a hotbed of PVP. As stated innumerable times before its because of the intrinsic value of these complexes that PVP prospers here in conjunction with their static nature. Removing any one aspect, (static or value) makes removes their viability as a key PVP site. Removing the value from them makes them no better than a asteroid belt or planet, and last time I logged on we had a few of those in space, and removing their static nature makes them like the other exploration sites that we all ready have, yes they do produce PVP, but it is very infrequent and unreliable. Not to mention it always is a PVE ship vs a PVP ship, which is not the kind of fight that we are looking for.
Sylvous |

darmwand
Repo.
82
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:53:00 -
[440] - Quote
I'm somewhat surprised to see that this still hasn't been resolved. I thought the Jita protests would have taught CCP not to completely ignore the players but this looks very much like the good old strategy of doing things that everybody disagrees with and then keeping quiet, hoping that people will just shut up. Sigh. darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/ Recruitment is OPEN |
|

Tavisturus
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 01:47:00 -
[441] - Quote
I just want to make it known that I still support everything in this thread even though I haven't logged in or undocked in about a month. I still exist! |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
2986
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 03:45:00 -
[442] - Quote
What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
478
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 03:56:00 -
[443] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit.
Simple solution, requires no new coding, doesnt require obliterating a vibrant pvp community |

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
144
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 04:14:00 -
[444] - Quote
low-sec only, keep them on overview, but shuffle them around like normal plexes (so that the booster-faggots have to make SOME effort to camp them)
if that's not feasible, then I think the change is better than the former status quo |

St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1113
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 06:29:00 -
[445] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit. Or maybe have it like the FW mechanism where the sites appear as anomalies on system scan and pop on overview as soon as someone warps to them, and change the timer to run out and despawn when no one is in the site.  |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
93
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 06:32:00 -
[446] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit.
I love the idea for the same reason that Michael does, but I have to ask (because I have no idea how incursion sites work), won't that mean that as soon as the site is complete, or shortly there after it will disappear entirely and no longer appear on the overview? Because if that's the case it won't work for what we desire, which is a PVP hotbed.
Depending on the ship being used it takes 2-5 min to run those, and that is too narrow a window for PVP to occur reliably (I am obviously going under the assumption that it disappears here). Should it disappear after being run and only appear when it is ready to run, someone will run the site as soon as it shows up, thus eliminating the beacon, meaning that for the hour and a bit between spawns there will be no place that acts as a PVP hotbed. It is the static nature of these beacons that is one of the key aspects here. Even when the complex is not spawned, in fact especially when the complex is not spawned it attracts people to it to check it out and PVP ensures, and if it disappears the whole point of having it is defeated. Yes the PVE aspect would be appreciated, but that is the minor part of bringing them back.
Sadly to avoid third room camping I feel that new coding is required in order to make the complexes viable if they are to be brought back. Making it so that as long a player remains inside the plex all the gates remain unlocked would help for most campers, and preventing cloaking in the second and third rooms would stop the cloaking campers (should there be no player in the third or second rooms all the gates lock again making a key required to get back in).
This would keep the PVP happening and in all likelihood given the scarcity of the 2/10 complexes in high sec be a HUGE boon to PVP in these systems (I get chills just thinking about it).
Sylvous |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
133
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 13:58:00 -
[447] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit.
Great idea with just one problem. You're asking them to design something different which will take forever. Sure, make something better and I'm certain this same number of people will be interested in testing it. In the mean time, as a good faith measure, can we just get the old stuff back until this theoretical new hotness is ready? |

Patches Esq
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 17:13:00 -
[448] - Quote
So, CCP Bettik ganked my Venture :P
In all seriousness, being destroyed and then having my pod blown up didn't really bother me much. I did read the Bio of the person who killed me (Turgesson), and was curious as to what he was talking about in it, so I opened a conversation with him.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a crybaby post. I didn't lose much. I'm not upset, and have no reason to be upset. I don't even do Low-Sec yet, as I'm still pretty new to the game. After talking to him (He killed me, so what? He is a pretty nice guy) about it, and reading this thread, I can say that it's kind of crummy to take this away from the players.
People obviously enjoy this feature, and it seems neat. A place with ship restrictions that is marked and known to be a PVP spot where you can fight over loot/resources? It seems like EVE is built around PVP, and taking away the hotspots for PVP seems like it goes against what I originally got interested in the game for.
As I said, I'm not whining. I know full and well that when I undock from a station I am consenting to being trashed in PVP, be it in High-Sec or somewhere else. This is part of the game. At most, I'm thankful that I learned about something in the game I knew nothing about, and met a guy who AFTER he killed me actually gave me some advice on how to fit my ship properly to give myself a chance next time.
So, even though I'm a victim of being molested in High-Sec by Turgesson, I still support this thread. Why would you take away something that keeps your players coming back? It sounds like fun.
Does anyone care what new players think? Lol. |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
560
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 21:04:00 -
[449] - Quote
Well, CCP say they care but they also say pvp is a core value in Eve so... meh...
And you seem to have great attitude so I hope you will stick around long enough to experience all activities Eve has to offer.
As for Turgesson and your convo after gank, this is exactly where you can see how much of bullsh!t NPC corp chat channels are. Hisec gankers, lowsec pirates, null dwellers - they all interact with you and gank is just a way of saying hello. Talk to them, ask what could you do to avoid losing ship or how to fight back and in most cases you will learn sth and maybe even will gain one more friendly contact. There are asshats that will point and laugh but more often than not you will meet nice people.
Ok, let's not make this thread into newbie appreciation fest :) I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Turgesson
Five-0
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:38:00 -
[450] - Quote
For every Patch there are 500+ Ereeres. I edited his name so he doesn't turn into a punching bag.
I don't really know what he's talking about either...the kill?...the 100k bounty for spamming KR notes at me? All I know is if you extend acts or Sutoka him he gets really really mad and rage logs.
I will not fight! From: Eemere XXXxxxXXX Sent: 2013.01.21 17:45 To: Turgesson,
Please remove the bounty from you within a week,
If you do not it will submit a report to the management "as a" psychological harassment ".
If you would extend to acts or Sutoka increase the bounty is
I will mail to each case management, |
|

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
563
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 16:22:00 -
[451] - Quote
Turgesson wrote: I will not fight! From: Eemere XXXxxxXXX Sent: 2013.01.21 17:45 To: Turgesson,
Please remove the bounty from you within a week,
If you do not it will submit a report to the management "as a" psychological harassment ".
If you would extend to acts or Sutoka increase the bounty is
I will mail to each case management,
This whine is fuelled by google translation. Full win! I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
95
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 18:50:00 -
[452] - Quote
@ Turgesson & Schmata Bastanold
Try to keep this thread on topic guys. As I mentioned in a previous post people seem to have a tendency to read only the last page or two of posts on any given topic and thus miss out on a lot of good conversation about said topic (hence why CCP Fozzie and others brought up ideas that we had all ready discussed at length within the first 15 pages). The bad part about this is that if we let this thread degrade and move off topic we make it very hard to promote good conversation about what is in fact a very important topic that is currently being ignored by CCP (or maybe just not acknowledged would be a better way to describe it).
Sylvous |

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
564
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 20:38:00 -
[453] - Quote
This thread is on life support already, at this point it doesn't matter what we post, nobody cares and nobody will. FW is poster child for lowsec and it is thriving so devs can do hi5s all around and move on to **** with somebody else's playground.
In 10 days will be 2 months since Retribution went live and all we got was some gibberish from dev not even responsible for this change. Time to grind sec status and got ready for hisec honorable duels. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Turgesson
Five-0
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 00:38:00 -
[454] - Quote
Yep,there is no discussion left just a bumped thread so we may as well have fun with it. We're getting what they are giving and can pound sand if we don't like it.
Thank god they did bring back the can flipping mechanic with some hero text pop up! Can you believe they said "with no interference"? 
Edit: Either I read that blog post wrong or they edited it after everyone laughed at it. Honorable combat that is about to ensue! is still there though.  |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 01:21:00 -
[455] - Quote
F*ck faction warfare....that is all. |

Ellente Fervens
Saiph Industries Talocan United
21
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 04:14:00 -
[456] - Quote
Awwww....you lost a static farmable resource.
Good!
The sooner they take belts out as well the better.
Move all the things into the exploration system. |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
207
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:20:00 -
[457] - Quote
Ellente Fervens wrote:Awwww....you lost a static farmable resource.
Good!
The sooner they take belts out as well the better.
Move all the things into the exploration system.
And again, the thread not read. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
134
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 14:06:00 -
[458] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Ellente Fervens wrote:Awwww....you lost a static farmable resource.
Good!
The sooner they take belts out as well the better.
Move all the things into the exploration system. And again, the thread not read.
A bump is a bump. One look at their killboard will show ya their skills stop at hitting a button and saying something dim-witted. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
109
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 18:05:00 -
[459] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:Ellente Fervens wrote:Awwww....you lost a static farmable resource.
Good!
The sooner they take belts out as well the better.
Move all the things into the exploration system. And again, the thread not read.
Although this does rather neatly emphasise Sylvous's comment about keeping the thread on topic as dimwits only read the last couple of posts and immediately leap to an assumption.....
|

Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
565
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 18:13:00 -
[460] - Quote
Well, not much of substance we can provide here unless we start copy/paste previous "on topic" posts. Thread has to be bumped to be visible for public but 20 more pages full of empty bumps won't do much better than our merry derailing.
Hmm, is that an example of catch 22 by any chance?
Oh, and bring static plexes back because pvp in lowsec fell into coma outside FW areas. And FW is lame, mkey? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
|

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
109
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 18:15:00 -
[461] - Quote
I know and am sad to say that R1FTA is busy booking Black Frog space to shift what remaining **** people have in Heild to somewhere a bit more lively.
Because Molden Heath is closed for business |

DR BiCarbonate
Basgerin Pirate SCUM.
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 22:39:00 -
[462] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit. This would be acceptable. Make it happen. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
105
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 04:41:00 -
[463] - Quote
DR BiCarbonate wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit. This would be acceptable. Make it happen.
Again I do believe that this leads to the issue that there is still virtually no PVP being generated at these sites since they will only exist for a short period of time until they are completed (run time 3-5 min in a PVP ship). Without the beacon continuously available to draw people to it to fight and or inspect the complex, this solution will only succeed in bringing the PVE aspect back, which although nice is not what we are actually looking for.
Sylvous |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
139
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 15:32:00 -
[464] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: The shift to exploration was done in part to reduce farming of the content, and introducing new rewards is something that has to be done carefully. The main question I'm trying to answer with the "no NPC" query is how much of the pvp was fueled by the loot rewards and how much was fueled by the interesting geography of the acceleration gates. If it's the latter the solution is more simple, if it's the former the solution is more complex.
Guys, this is the point we all have to realize. What idea could any of us come up with that would involve unfarmable content? PvE content in general and mining are both ways of "farming" isk if you've been playing longer than a month. Tell me a way to make level 4s "unfarmable" by experianced players using CNRs?
If we're asking for loot drops to fuel fights it's a complex problem now and anything we get will be here "soon" after they tell us it will come "soon". The arguments have all been made on our end so until we see some movement on SiSi we're shitouttaluck.
I've seen other MMOs try to tackle "farming" with "interesting pve content" and it always fails because the PvE is crap and not the reason why people are playing.
|

Swifty Blowback
Republic University Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 18:24:00 -
[465] - Quote
Sylvous wrote:DR BiCarbonate wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:What about using the Incursion site spawning mechanism for these DED sites: that is, the beacon shows up in local, but the site despawns after being completed only to appear elsewhere in the same system. This allows a gathering point, doesn't require two ships or a poorly fitted single ship, and eliminates the possibility of camping the end room for profit. This would be acceptable. Make it happen. Again I do believe that this leads to the issue that there is still virtually no PVP being generated at these sites since they will only exist for a short period of time until they are completed (run time 3-5 min in a PVP ship). Without the beacon continuously available to draw people to it to fight and or inspect the complex, this solution will only succeed in bringing the PVE aspect back, which although nice is not what we are actually looking for. Sylvous
Yep, agree with Sylvous on this.
I know people are trying to generate alternative "solutions", which is great, but we still need CCP to actually confirm that there was a problem with these sites being farmed in lowsec. We all know that the highsec ones were farmed 23/7 but I still have doubts about lowsec. It feels like we're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
|

Swifty Blowback
Republic University Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 18:46:00 -
[466] - Quote
I was curious as to what impact this change has had on the systems where the static DEDs used to be. I picked Heild as my benchmark and I've just spent 10 minutes on eve-kill totalling frigate and destroyer (including T2 versions) kills in Heild for a random week before the DED change and a random week after the change. Here's what I found:
For the week Sunday 13th Jan 2013 - Saturday 19th Jan, the total number of frigate & destroyer kills in Heild was 9. For the week Sunday 21st Oct 2012 - Saturday 27th Oct, the total number of frigate & destroyer kills in Heild was 126.
Yes, that's one hundred and twenty six.
For the first 3 weeks of January 2013, there are a total of 4 and a bit pages of kills on eve-kill for Heild. For the first 3 weeks of November 2012, there are 20 pages of kills.
I know there can be many other factors involved here and that I've only spent a few minutes looking into this, but given the massive difference in numbers, it's obvious that with this change CCP has completely crippled what was a thriving PVP system / community.
Can you hear us yet CCP? |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
105
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 22:10:00 -
[467] - Quote
Swifty Blowback wrote: we still need CCP to actually confirm that there was a problem with these sites being farmed in lowsec. We all know that the highsec ones were farmed 23/7 but I still have doubts about lowsec. It feels like we're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
Sadly the problem did exist, although to a much lesser extent. You could still cloak in the last room of the complexes effectively making the complex unusable to anyone (there were a small number of people who did this). Though (to me) the obvious solution is to make it so that any point beyond a accel gate that requires a key cloaks no longer work, and furthermore as long as a ship is within the complex (beyond a gate requiring a key) all gates up to that point remain unlocked until the player vacates the complex at which point the gates lock again.
That would fix the farming issue in low sec (and now with the highsec complexes gone, I can imagine that many a highsec camper would move to lowsec to use this exploit if the complexes were reinstated as is) while at the same time bring back all the PVP that has been robbed from lowsec.
Sylvous
|

Swifty Blowback
Republic University Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 07:52:00 -
[468] - Quote
Sylvous wrote: Sadly the problem did exist, although to a much lesser extent.
Yep I saw this occasionally. What I really meant is, was the extent of farming them in lowsec a problem? I think I only experienced 2, maybe 3 pilots doing cloaky farming. Maybe I have it wrong. That's why I long for CCP to split the data for highsec DED farming vs lowsec DED farming.
If we must strive for zero tolerance to farming the static DEDs, reinstate them in lowsec and ensure the loot spawns a few minutes after keys spawn. This will give players a chance to go in and challenge the farmer. If there are still some poor sad pilots who continue trying to cloaky farm, add a structure in the last room of the DED that when approached releases a large AOE decloak bomb. As CCP have said many many times, they want to give the players the tools to "police" New Eden themselves. Currently not feeling the love on that one. |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
67
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 20:33:00 -
[469] - Quote
Plenty of solutions and ideas in this thread, not enough CCP.
There's a lot of good reading, if anyone cares enough, I'm losing hope. A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Olleybear
I R' Carebear
177
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 22:42:00 -
[470] - Quote
I've been training my alt for mining! Astrogeology 5 coming right up...
/me crys When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |
|

Schmata Bastanold
Serene Vendetta Li3 Federation
565
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 23:04:00 -
[471] - Quote
Olleybear wrote:I've been training my alt for mining! Astrogeology 5 coming right up...
/me crys
I joined HBC... I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere hydra reloaded
479
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 11:06:00 -
[472] - Quote
Swifty Blowback wrote:
For the first 3 weeks of January 2013, there is a total of 4 and a bit pages of kills on eve-kill for Heild. For the first 3 weeks of November 2012, there are 20 pages of kills. ?
|

Swifty Blowback
Republic University Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 11:16:00 -
[473] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Swifty Blowback wrote:
For the first 3 weeks of January 2013, there is a total of 4 and a bit pages of kills on eve-kill for Heild. For the first 3 weeks of November 2012, there are 20 pages of kills. ?
I assume you are confused. I've just added 4 more words to make it as explicit as humanly possible. Maybe that will help? |

Turgesson
Five-0
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 14:11:00 -
[474] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Olleybear wrote:I've been training my alt for mining! Astrogeology 5 coming right up...
/me crys I joined HBC...
I downloaded Planetside. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 10:32:00 -
[475] - Quote
Guys...
guys...
Guys.
Guys listen.
I have the best idea,
guys listen,
I have the best idea ever.
Guys.
I'll put BOUNTIES, guys listen here,
BOUNTIES.
I'll put BOUNTIES,
guys listen,
I'll put BOUNTIES....on ALL OF US.
Guys.
THEN all the.....Guys listen,
ALL THE BOUNTY HUNTERS WILL COME GET US!!!!! |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
67
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 11:55:00 -
[476] - Quote
Had a very depressing convo with Sard Caid a night or so back. Thank you CCP for destroying a vibrant and exciting PvP community and not even giving us the courtesy of a reach around. Even poking devs on twitter doesn't seem to be working no more.
A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
24
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 14:12:00 -
[477] - Quote
Vincent R'lyeh wrote:Guys...
guys...
Guys.
Guys listen.
I have the best idea,
guys listen,
I have the best idea ever.
Guys.
I'll put BOUNTIES, guys listen here,
BOUNTIES.
I'll put BOUNTIES,
guys listen,
I'll put BOUNTIES....on ALL OF US.
Guys.
THEN all the.....Guys listen,
ALL THE BOUNTY HUNTERS WILL COME GET US!!!!!
I LOL'ed =) |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
271
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 17:23:00 -
[478] - Quote
Kane Rizzel wrote:Had a very depressing convo with Sard Caid a night or so back. Thank you CCP for destroying a vibrant and exciting PvP community and not even giving us the courtesy of a reach around. Even poking devs on twitter doesn't seem to be working no more.
It is indeed very depressing. If you ain't some big null-sec alliance, CCP don't want to hear from you.
Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3795

|
Posted - 2013.01.30 10:48:00 -
[479] - Quote
Hey guys, we haven't abandoned reading the thread, but in this case we're not going to be able to give you a specific answer you're happy with.
I can confirm that it wasn't just farming of the highsec plexes that concerned us, we looked at the data for the number of unique characters completing the lowsec plexes as well and that number was much smaller than we wanted.
All I can really say is that we understand that this change removes a focal point for lowsec fighting that was beneficial in a lot of ways, but that the team here believes that when we look back on this change in hindsight later the benefits will outweigh the loss (in the same way that we believe the benefits outweighed the loss inherent in removing the higher tier static complexes in 2007).
We in Team Five 0 have also been working hard to produce designs that would improve traffic and combat throughout lowsec, starting with all the crimewatch improvements we released in Retribution that improve life for every pirate, and continuing with our designs that were detailed in the CSM minutes. We can't commit to the next stage until we have the theme selection process internally and with the CSM finished, but we're dedicated to building upon what we achieved for lowsec in Retribution. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3795

|
Posted - 2013.01.30 11:08:00 -
[480] - Quote
One other note: Yes we realize that since Retribution the number of kills in systems like Heild have dropped, and we're not glad about that.
However if you look at all lowsec player deaths not involving a FW member, we've seen an increase of 68% since Retribution. That's an average increase of over 1500 kills a day in lowsec without a single FW kill included.
Retribution did not ignore lowsec by any stretch of the the imagination. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
|

Volstruis
The Tuskers
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 11:33:00 -
[481] - Quote
Sad reply better than no reply.
You basically confirmed Fozzi, but there's no way we can twist your arm to put them back in low-sec?
-V |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
67
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 12:24:00 -
[482] - Quote
Two months after the thread was started... I'd say that is a big no Volstruis.
I appreciate that lowsec got some love with Retribution, but to say that it has vastly improved small scale frigate and solo PvP would be a fallacy. You see, it's all about the massive fights for CCP, like the lag ball that was Asakai. I'm afraid the lone wolf be whatever you want approach to EVE is slowly dying and no amount reason will ever change that.
But I suppose having Supercaps dropped on my Caracal is something I should get used to instead of finding quality Frigate or Cruiser solo PvP.
A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
271
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:53:00 -
[483] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, we haven't abandoned reading the thread, but in this case we're not going to be able to give you a specific answer you're happy with.
I can confirm that it wasn't just farming of the highsec plexes that concerned us, we looked at the data for the number of unique characters completing the lowsec plexes as well and that number was much smaller than we wanted.
All I can really say is that we understand that this change removes a focal point for lowsec fighting that was beneficial in a lot of ways, but that the team here believes that when we look back on this change in hindsight later the benefits will outweigh the loss (in the same way that we believe the benefits outweighed the loss inherent in removing the higher tier static complexes in 2007).
Well I'm disappointed to hear that, but thanks for replying again at least.
Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Schmata Bastanold
Serene Vendetta Li3 Federation
565
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:56:00 -
[484] - Quote
Quote:Our metrics show there is nothing wrong with lowsec. Bye! I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew Capital Punishment.
207
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 14:22:00 -
[485] - Quote
Thank you for responding and giving us the softly spoken, "These options are not going to be looked at". I don't mean that sarcastically. Being told no is much better then being ignored. I do appreciate that even if we are not to get our way, thank you for not ignoring us until we went away (which we wouldn't have but that's another discussion). Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Swifty Blowback
Republic University Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 14:34:00 -
[486] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:However if you look at all lowsec player deaths not involving a FW member, we've seen an increase of 68% since just before Retribution. That's an average increase of over 1500 kills a day in lowsec without a single FW kill included.
Retribution did not ignore lowsec by any stretch of the the imagination. Thanks for the reply CCP Fozzie. However it appears that you've missed the whole raison d'etre of this thread. This thread is all about solo / tiny gang cheap frig / dessie PvP that used to thrive around the DED site systems in lowsec. Quoting "number of kills in low-sec since Retribution" is the wrong metric and shows you don't really get what we've been saying in this whole thread.
Still, the message is now coming through just about as loud and clear as we're likely to get from CCP regarding this, so thank you for that CCP Fozzie. If anyone is in any doubt at all about what that message is, I'll summarise...
Move to FW space if you want lowsec PvP.
If I were cynical, I'd say it was done to try to make FW space more populous so that Dust Bunnies will think that's what EvE is really like. Good job I'm not cynical at all then.
/thread and /moldenheath :-( |

Turgesson
Five-0
40
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 14:50:00 -
[487] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Retribution did not ignore lowsec by any stretch of the the imagination.
Short term increases after a new expansion is nothing new. After the mining barge buff I found a rorq in a low sec belt from some dummy that "came back". That never happened before or since but was a direct result of marketing and so are the increases from retribution.
....and it's not 2007 it's 2013. Learning from the past but not considering present conditions is not a good thing my friend. Think about using that old knowledge and building something with player input to change it rather than just removing crap in the middle of the night.
We're really not telling you this stuff because we just want our sites back or something better to replace it. We're throwing red flags at you that this is bad for EvE and low sec in the long term. That hurts you more than it hurts us. |

Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
456
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:58:00 -
[488] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: We in Team Five 0 have also been working hard to produce designs that would improve traffic and combat throughout lowsec, starting with all the crimewatch improvements we released in Retribution that improve life for every pirate, and continuing with our designs that were detailed in the CSM minutes. We can't commit to the next stage until we have the theme selection process internally and with the CSM finished, but we're dedicated to building upon what we achieved for lowsec in Retribution.
Low sec shouldn't just be a Pvp arena where you can find tons of frigate 1v1's. Low sec needs more carebear things that can result in pvp to. FW plexes are a good isk source but something more for industrialists and traders should be in their.
Fozzie you should check out the thread in my signature for a way to make low sec more relevant to how the different spaces interact.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1472
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 16:29:00 -
[489] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:One other note: Yes we realize that since Retribution the number of kills in systems like Heild have dropped, and we're not glad about that.
However if you look at all lowsec player deaths not involving a FW member, we've seen an increase of 68% since just before Retribution. That's an average increase of over 1500 kills a day in lowsec without a single FW kill included.
Retribution did not ignore lowsec by any stretch of the the imagination.
yes statistics. A 1vs1 in a plex will never show up in lowsec statistics where most kills are at gatecamps. What made plexes interesting was the TERRAIN. The fact that nobody can bait and warp his falcon, the RR dominix to you or bring more friends without being seen.
Eve needs more terrain. More flying in space, less warping/camping in space. Thats also the reason why i liked the old FW plex design better... but i said this probably already 50 times in all those threads. a eve-style bounty system (done)-á dust boarding parties You fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |

Sofia Wolf
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
153
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 16:37:00 -
[490] - Quote
Fozz you people should make static plexses that drop them sec status improving tags that were mentioned in CSM minutes, then bad people will fight other bad people over who will benefit from easy way to fix their bad sec status . That way pirates can fight each other and as a reward, instead of module or isk, they get sec status improvement tags. Carebears usually donGÇÖt need to be concerned with improving their sec status so for them there is no loss if those plexes are perma camped by pirates. Win, win, win! |
|

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
125
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 18:34:00 -
[491] - Quote
Thanks for the response at least Fozzie even if it's most definitely what we wanted to hear, unfortunately the statisyics you quoted don't lend themselves to the reality of our pirate lifestyles. Many of us have HAD to move to FW space in the hope of getting kills which now often simply results in being blobbed by FW fleets or attempting to fight warp stabbed FW farmers (oh look farming.... )
However I await these future changes with the hope that they will allow us to recreate the true pirate lifestyle in low sec that we all in this thread enjoy, unfortunately I don't await it with much hope.
This graphic (created by the illustrious Joe Struck of Joe's Sign-painting, Pinstriping and Tattoos) was going to be saved for the Veto. London Meet but seeing as we've had the response from Fozzie now there's no need:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2192180/two-ten_2.jpg |

Malfyrion
The Tuskers
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 22:52:00 -
[492] - Quote
Alas, twenty five pages... 3 dev responses, information that is flawed...little to no actual discussion with the players, just finality and a few vauge so called overall "metrics"... tsch... thanks fozzie for trying to give us somekind of response atleast, even if they left many things to be desired...
Quite frankly though, why did this change HAVE to happen? was the farming in hisec and the occasional lowsec system THAT grave? really ? the worth of these mods where not much in eve standards... it was barely enough so i could keep on pvping in a assault frigg(and if i got lucky) maybe even a daredevil ! but now? now i have to do abhorrent pve content that is (admit it) bonkers boring.
All pve content in eve is FARMING. people farm missions, people farm exploration, people farm fw wich you so adore (may i remind you nigh on risk free if done right ?) people farm EVERYTHING.
The only diffrence this will do is that the farmers will farm them through the exploration system instead, just with the extra hassle of probing them down now, (hell they can do the plexes with the probing ship if its a remotley smart pilot).
And who event wants to use or afford these modules now that they have risen to almost thrice their price in some situations ?
I honestly believe that this whole decision was a rash move by someone with little knowledge that is trying to hide his blunder with flawed metrics and reasoning.
that, or CCP just dont actually dont care what we think, and bulldoze everything to please the carebear HORDES and blobbing majority,
And in all honesty, This "farming" was some of the most un lucrative ways to farm due to RNG and dropchances, in most cases where this was farming happened was maybe a billion a MONTH.
So if the idea was to tackle farming, that kinda failed miserably.
Enough of my angrey ranting now. |

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
59
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 22:55:00 -
[493] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:One other note: Yes we realize that since Retribution the number of kills in systems like Heild have dropped, and we're not glad about that.
However if you look at all lowsec player deaths not involving a FW member, we've seen an increase of 68% since just before Retribution. That's an average increase of over 1500 kills a day in lowsec without a single FW kill included.
Retribution did not ignore lowsec by any stretch of the the imagination. We can not possibly argue statistics with you since we don't have nearly the access to sources that you do. However your statistics are misleading you. We on this thread have flown in lowsec before and after the removal. Before there was a great mechanic involving these sites and lots of great fights involving small gangs and solo. After, it is a lot harder to find similar fights (and it was pretty hard to begin with trust me). If your statistics are saying that this community is thriving while everyone in the community is saying something contrary, you are looking at the data wrong. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
105
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 00:22:00 -
[494] - Quote
As an echo to the others: Thanks Fozzie for giving us a response, though again I will argue that the stats you're quoting us mean very little.
The kills that you are saying have happened in low sec since the change, how many of them were because of camps or larger fleets? Now with the new system it is very easy to maintain a gate camp and I imagine that larger fleets get more chances to prey on one or two ships at a time. And I am also positive that the occasional 1v1 happens at a planet or at a belt (had one myself last week). But on about these 1v1's, the removal of these complexes has not by any means made them more likely to happen. I have only had one in the last month and a bit. Where beforehand if I tried I could have multiple a day (with almost no effort).
Also as has been stated before, I am fairly certain that all aspects of game play see a rise after a release, and lowsec PVP is likely no different.
Furthermore I imagine that the PVP had at these complexes would be added to the current PVP experienced throughout lowsec. Just think, in heild alone you would be adding over 100 kills a week for your lowsec stats (and again this is using stats from before they weren't readily available in high sec, that # is bound to be higher now). Another issue you have is that the complexes were seemingly only run by a small number of unique characters, well believe it or not that is a issue with most of the lowsec community. In fact, we hate the fact that those of us who dwell there are a small number of people. There is not enough lowsec content to draw those who live in high sec out, or rather, there is not enough content with a good risk:reward ratio that warrants people leaving highsec.
Anyhow, I get the feeling that this will all fall on deaf ears. So for the time being I will find other things to do until CCP finds the time to address this issue in proper.
Again thanks for replying.
|

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
59
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 04:21:00 -
[495] - Quote
I was browsing the web in firefox and I noticed my bookmark of Brutor BullFighter:Plex Hunter. What a great blog post that was. Advice from that post dominated my gameplay for several months afterwords :(
Ah, the memories... All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
105
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:10:00 -
[496] - Quote
Toterra wrote:I was browsing the web in firefox and I noticed my bookmark of Brutor BullFighter:Plex Hunter. What a great blog post that was. Advice from that post dominated my gameplay for several months afterwords :( Ah, the memories... All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Too true.
It was the dream land for any solo pilot, now just a dream. |

Andrea Brutale
Bigger than Jesus
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 06:24:00 -
[497] - Quote
Just came back to EVE after a extended leave.
I am in full support of the players in this movement to bring the complexes back. Nearly all of my (admittedly very limited) solo PVP experience in frigs and destroyers happened at these complexes. I really never felt very confident in PVP so I didn't participate here much, but I must say this: When these complexes existed, if you wanted a fight you could get one in less than ten min at peak hours, and still within a very reasonable time frame during non peak hours.
It's disappointing to see that CCP has removed what seemed like such a vibrant community (sotty guys, I only read the first few pages and the last few pages), and I can completely understand the disappointment when one of the best aspect of the games that actually was functioning in low security space is taken away (especially after putting in what seems like a ton of new ships and frig balancing that would have been active at these very complexes).
This was a poor choice in my opinion, in order to see "metrics" (as CCP Fozzie likes to call them) that properly reflect the lowsec complexes, perhaps they low sec complexes could be reinstated, even if only for a bit so that with all the changes (in combination with the removal of the complexes from high sec) a new reliable set of data could be acquired?
Just a thought |

Swifty Blowback
Republic University Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 08:40:00 -
[498] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Eve needs more terrain. More flying in space, less warping/camping in space.
So very true. Which is why when CCP remove very popular terrain like the lowsec DEDs, the effect it has is hugely negative. Small scale / solo PvP needs more terrain to help it along, not less. |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
24
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:18:00 -
[499] - Quote
It really does seem like CCP is hell bent on driving us like cattle into the FW blob-zone, or driving us out to null. In this case I propose a much more efficient alternative: Remove lowsec entirely. With no lowsec, and just highsec and nullsec in existence, we will finally achieve the vision of a carebear horde camped in by nullbears, with blobs, blobs everywhere.
It will be totally glorious.
/sarcasm.
Now, seriously, Fozzie, thank you for your reply. However, you (and your co-developers) seem to be missing something: Not everyone wants to fly in fleets and not everyone wants to bend the knee. Not everyone wants to get blobbed in FW land, either. Heck, if I see TiDi in a system, I go elsewhere, because playing in slow-mo is not what I pay my subscription fee for.
This thread is about the unaffiliated space pirates who would fly alone or in small groups. It was a great lifestyle, full of good fights, hilarious ganks and some blue loot worth effectively peanuts (the most common drops were 10-15mil, if anything dropped at all), but keeping us in frigs and dessies. We could enjoy the fights, ganks and tears, while not doing any of the godawful grind that EVE has for PvE to make ISK.
Personally, I could log in for an hour and expect some funny shenanigans to occur rather rapidly. This is now quite gone. Sure, lowsec might have more fights, or whatever it is that your metrics show, but you've annihilated a playstyle and a community from your game. You've taken a niche that we've made our own and nuked it out of existence. In other words, you left a whole bunch of customers very unhappy.
I think that you should dedicate some serious thought into how you should bring back what you took, on terms which are acceptable both to you, and to the community whom you've harmed.
Please take this into consideration.
And as a parting shot: You say that now more distinct people complete these plexes. Great, but the point of a static resource (not much different from Tech moons, just on a far smaller scale, and far less broken) is that the good people can take over it. If the same people manage to get repeated access to this resource, then it is because they are better at it than others (due to being really good at PvP, being online at advantageous times, or being really good at being sneaky campers - it doesn't matter, they are more successful tha). What in effect you have done is penalize the people for being good, in order to expand the amount of people who can access the resource.
1) Penalizing the successful is breaking the sandbox. 2) We don't see you spreading the Techentium moon wealth because OTEC are better than anyone else at hoarding it. However, you seem adamant that a few individuals fighting for measly "farmable" resources in lowsec must be "rebalanced". 3) We don't see you "rebalancing" missions so they cannot be farmed by a semi-afk pilot in a battleship ad nauseum.
What gives? |

Adele Godel
The Spawning Pool Team Liquid
59
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:38:00 -
[500] - Quote
Fozzie, why dont you just share your data with us. |
|

DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
159
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 14:27:00 -
[501] - Quote
Yet another "we're doing something that screws people over now because someday we might make life better for you and you'll thank us for it then" from CCP. What a shame. |

Turgesson
Five-0
40
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 14:28:00 -
[502] - Quote
Toterra wrote:I was browsing the web in firefox and I noticed my bookmark of Brutor BullFighter:Plex Hunter. What a great blog post that was. Advice from that post dominated my gameplay for several months afterwords :( Ah, the memories... All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Yep, that blog should have been copy and pasted into the wiki under pirating income. It's a damn shame that's lost.
Here's another lil tidbit for The Foz to chew on. One of the reasons I never bothered with the 2/10 was because I wasn't a big fan of the crappy destroyer line up. Why would you add more ships capable of really heating up these sites and remove them in the same damn patch? I can tell you from the little frigate buffs that the 1/10 I ran saw a nice increase and was starting to catch on with new and old players. My kills/losses will show that so screw the metrics.
The very last night I ran that plex I had to go 2v1 for a crappy OSE and a junk plate of some sort. How is that too much money? I want to see any other way of farming that pits you against a Daredevil and an Enyo that you HAVE to fight if you want the money.
I expected better from CCP when I started playing this but as usual Experienced = Expendable.
Disonorevole |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
143
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 18:04:00 -
[503] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:n the same way that we believe the benefits outweighed the loss inherent in removing the higher tier static complexes in 2007
We in Team Five 0 have also been working hard to produce designs that would improve traffic and combat throughout lowsec, starting with all the crimewatch improvements we released in Retribution that improve life for every pirate.
First of all you don't understand the first thing about piracy if you think retribution is some super win for us. All retribution did was add a ton of annoying eeeep noises and gave high sec more stupid "pew pew" options. The timers showing up in an easy to see way and rr inheriting an aggro flag was overdue.
The rats target us now when mission ganking.
Part time blobbers can come and go at will and we can't easily killright them to catch later in a dark alley when the odds favor us.
Security Hits happen if you sneeze at something wrong and causes ss grinds for people who prefer postive numbers. A big front loaded ss hit is taken on aggro now.
Sentry changes and GCC/suspect changes in low were not for us. It was for the jackasses that would warp a burning ship to a station to escape or the ever popular part time idiot that jumped into high sec with GCC. A small gate/station camp buff?...great we all know how exciting they are.
Transports cannot be scanned.
GSCs can be used to prevent smartboming in high sec.
"Traffic" is NOT a positive for us. We need someone to hang around not jump gate to gate with a Tenjew looking for empty locals to scan and farm.
Some prior changes that added nothing but suck to low sec in my time here: Mission quality and moving agents that would regularly send shiny stuff our way. Half baked FW that drew TRUE farmers away from anywhere without FW crap to farm. Incursion rats regularly camp low sec gates with stupidly overpowered rats.
I wasn't here in 2007 and would love to see what positive results came from removing the high tier plexes from LOW SEC. It damn sure didn't help stop farming plexes because they were mine just like the static. By the time anyone scanned our systems they either found nothing because we farmed it already, a trap or a bugged plex.
Please, show me some numbers that support doing harm to your product has a positive effect over time. Particularly how Molden Heath and other places getting turned into ghost towns is outweighed by...? What positive gets us to the "net positive"? |

Schmata Bastanold
Serene Vendetta Li3 Federation
591
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 11:11:00 -
[504] - Quote
Nothing new, just a bump because I hate jukebox thread being on 1st page while our is moving deeper and deeper into oblivion. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

darmwand
Repo.
82
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 13:31:00 -
[505] - Quote
While I don't really have anything relevant to say that hasn't been said before I think that instead of removing them, reducing the loot and in turn adding more of these plexes in other regions would have been a much better way to solve the farming issue. darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/
Recruitment is OPEN |

Turgesson
Five-0
40
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 14:15:00 -
[506] - Quote
darmwand wrote: I think that instead of removing them, reducing the loot and in turn adding more of these plexes in other regions would have been a much better way to solve the farming issue.
But that won't drive the "undesirables" away like it did in 2007.
They easily could have lowered drop rates, added key drops to belt rats or something and added more of these sites around to have an alternative to FW with a more open ended unique sandbox feature....but I don't think open ended sandbox is in the 10year plan with Pippy Longstocking, Fozzybear and CCP Verne Troyer at the helm. |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 05:44:00 -
[507] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:One other note: Yes we realize that since Retribution the number of kills in systems like Heild have dropped, and we're not glad about that.
However if you look at all lowsec player deaths not involving a FW member, we've seen an increase of 68% since just before Retribution. That's an average increase of over 1500 kills a day in lowsec without a single FW kill included.
Retribution did not ignore lowsec by any stretch of the the imagination.
I look at the Molden Heath numbers and dont care about these overall stats. Its been documented in this thread how small pvp kills have pretty much vanished in MH. Molden Heath was/is unigue....keep it that way.
|

Adele Godel
The Spawning Pool Team Liquid
59
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 11:55:00 -
[508] - Quote
Im also pretty sure fozzie is counting things like asakai as lowsec kills, as well as staged events like the tuskers ffa. |

ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers R O G U E
194
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 13:07:00 -
[509] - Quote
would CCP consider maybe bringing back the lvl 1-3 complexes back as they were but allow PvP inside them, little challenging competition inside them would be cool i think :-P |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
126
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:38:00 -
[510] - Quote
Robinton Jax wrote: I look at the Molden Heath numbers and dont care about these overall stats. Its been documented in this thread how small pvp kills have pretty much vanished in MH. Molden Heath was/is unigue....keep it that way.
I got 4 small pvp kills in under an hour in Heild on Sunday..............
Yes 4 1v1 kills
Well actually 4 cyno ships.......................
Because all MH is now is a staging area for Null-Sec
|
|

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
61
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 21:20:00 -
[511] - Quote
Vincent R'lyeh wrote:Robinton Jax wrote: I look at the Molden Heath numbers and dont care about these overall stats. Its been documented in this thread how small pvp kills have pretty much vanished in MH. Molden Heath was/is unigue....keep it that way.
I got 4 small pvp kills in under an hour in Heild on Sunday.............. Yes 4 1v1 kills Well actually 4 cyno ships....................... Because all MH is now is a staging area for Null-Sec Wow, that is sure some quality PvP. I take back everything I said about the change, Fozzie is right!. Low-sec is great for popping cyno ships. |

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
481
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 12:38:00 -
[512] - Quote
Vincent R'lyeh wrote:Robinton Jax wrote: I look at the Molden Heath numbers and dont care about these overall stats. Its been documented in this thread how small pvp kills have pretty much vanished in MH. Molden Heath was/is unigue....keep it that way.
I got 4 small pvp kills in under an hour in Heild on Sunday.............. Yes 4 1v1 kills Well actually 4 cyno ships....................... Because all MH is now is a staging area for Null-Sec
I did some "small gang pvp" last night when 40 of us killed a PL dreadnaught then got blobbed by slowcats.
Thats solo frigate pvp, right? |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 20:14:00 -
[513] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:
I did some "small gang pvp" last night when 40 of us killed a PL dreadnaught then got blobbed by slowcats.
Thats solo frigate pvp, right?
This means its all your Fault Michael!
Now we know where Fozzies numbers are coming from!
CCP Fozzie wrote: However if you look at all lowsec player deaths not involving a FW member, we've seen an increase of 68% since just before Retribution..
|

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:56:00 -
[514] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: However if you look at all lowsec player deaths not involving a FW member, we've seen an increase of 68% since just before Retribution..
In other studies performed this month we have a journal report from Boston medical that says wine is bad for you...and another from Purdue university that says wine is good for you.
|

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 18:18:00 -
[515] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: However if you look at all lowsec player deaths not involving a FW member, we've seen an increase of 68% since just before Retribution..
In other studies performed this month we have a journal report from Boston medical that says wine is bad for you...and another from Purdue university that says wine is good for you.
Opens a bottle of wine in order to test this theory whilst bumping this thread for no particular reason anymore
|

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 22:17:00 -
[516] - Quote
This is all a CCP plot to make me go to Fan Fest. |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 09:06:00 -
[517] - Quote
Robinton Jax wrote:This is all a CCP plot to make me go to Fan Fest.
To get the devs drunk enough so they would revert the change ? 
(I kid, I kid!)
Also, bump for Lowsec Justice! |

Iminent Penance
Interstellar Military Assistance Corporation Black Core Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 09:09:00 -
[518] - Quote
but if they change, where will i log my frigate alts at downtime from now on every day? :( |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 04:41:00 -
[519] - Quote
I could see my old house in Keflavik....and see if I could make a Dev pee themselves.. Managed it twice now....from fear and laughter. Wouldnt be shooting for laughter.
Thanks to the CP guys for the fights on the Teo gate btw.
....and bump |

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War Out of Sight.
973
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 17:52:00 -
[520] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote: I wasn't here in 2007 and would love to see what positive results came from removing the high tier plexes from LOW SEC. It damn sure didn't help stop farming plexes because they were mine just like the static. By the time anyone scanned our systems they either found nothing because we farmed it already, a trap or a bugged plex.
No positive results whatsoever. I've been playing since late 2005 and actively visiting low since mid 2006 and it has been steadily dying out since then.
All recent ideas of CCP are a joke, they fail to address the only question worth discussing: "what's the purpose of low-sec in the entire game economics and what content does it provide?" 14 |
|

Zoe Panala
Blobcats
103
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 21:47:00 -
[521] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote: I wasn't here in 2007 and would love to see what positive results came from removing the high tier plexes from LOW SEC. It damn sure didn't help stop farming plexes because they were mine just like the static. By the time anyone scanned our systems they either found nothing because we farmed it already, a trap or a bugged plex.
No positive results whatsoever. I've been playing since late 2005 and actively visiting low since mid 2006 and it has been steadily dying out since then. All recent ideas of CCP are a joke, they fail to address the only question worth discussing: "what's the purpose of low-sec in the entire game economics and what content does it provide?"
Staging area for nullsec, obviously. All the "low sec pirates" should be happy about popping cyno frigs, and should not ask for more. The greedy bastards! |

Olleybear
I R' Carebear
177
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 00:07:00 -
[522] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote: No positive results whatsoever. I've been playing since late 2005 and actively visiting low since mid 2006 and it has been steadily dying out since then.
All recent ideas of CCP are a joke, they fail to address the only question worth discussing: "what's the purpose of low-sec in the entire game economics and what content does it provide?"
The low sec 'steadily dying' statement is one I have to agree with. I still remember the old days back then when Hedaleofarber had over 100 carebears in it and half and istodard had 50 and 75 people. By people I mean the very carebear targets pirates and pvpers alike thrive on. This was back in the day of MH-Sec intel channel. It was glorious with multibillion isk ships running missions, hearing the call in MH-Sec of a few pirates, then flying out with that very multibillion isk ship to reclaim our space.
Pirates used to say that you know your a good pirate when you can go into Molden Heath, pop someone, and survive.
Those numbers all went downhill within a month or so when the initial probing changes first hit and ship scanning in mission rooms became much much easier. Afterall, scanning down a multiple bilion isk ship in less than 30 seconds in a mission that took 20 minutes and more to run is not only unprofitable for the mission runner, it is suicide. That one change killed Molden Heath population and it never regained those population levels. Ever.
You see, when you remove the ability to make isk in an area, you remove the reason for being there. When there is no reason to be in an area, there aren't going to be very many fights. It is going to be interesting to see if the number of kills in low sec stays high per CCP stats, or if they are currently high because of the changes to aggression mechanics/gate guns in low and will lower over time.
Anyways, thanks for answering CCP Fozzie, even though we obviously dont agree with the decision. When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |

H3R01N4
Gebeleizis Legion ROMANIAN-LEGION
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 00:12:00 -
[523] - Quote
Who cares about us?! We are just simple clients , i dont think they give a f about our feelings and about how any of us like to play the game. The message is clr imo: to many players in low sec loosing cheap frigs , go to 00 for pvp ,join the blobs and die in fire in 200 vs 200 fights (atleast)...2 rokhs (abaddon ,zealots,tengues, etc ) = 1 plex , 20 af's = 1 plex, 200 rifters = 1 plex . Maybe I'm paranoid but i cant lie about the way i feel. We should get used with "inteligent" changes made by ccp anyway
Good luck and have fun killing cynoes u bad bad piwates
|

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War Out of Sight.
973
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 01:11:00 -
[524] - Quote
Olleybear wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote: No positive results whatsoever. I've been playing since late 2005 and actively visiting low since mid 2006 and it has been steadily dying out since then.
All recent ideas of CCP are a joke, they fail to address the only question worth discussing: "what's the purpose of low-sec in the entire game economics and what content does it provide?"
The low sec 'steadily dying' statement is one I have to agree with. I still remember the old days... Oh, don't get me started :) When a single dead-end system had a standard local of 20+ and its own security channel where mission runners teamed up against any hostile action, it kinda speaks for itself. I really miss all the trill of 'can I break that golem's tank before his backup arrives?', nowadays it's more of 'lol, what a noob would bring a marauder to run missions in low-sec?'.
It's really sad to see low-sec having degenerated into a crappy FW of endless blobbing frigs and tech1 cruisers. 14 |

KiithSoban
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 15:15:00 -
[525] - Quote
This needs a bump. I support small static plexes in lowsec with ship type restrictions as in militia space. They are a beautiful mechanic that opens up pvp for the young player. |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 21:49:00 -
[526] - Quote
I learn something new everytime Olley posts... |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
105
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 20:51:00 -
[527] - Quote
Robinton Jax wrote:I learn something new everytime Olley posts...
With you on that one. I knew that CCP had made low sec less inhabited, but I never realized to what degree. I personally felt that this change was huge as I now see about 10% of the activity in the systems I used to frequent. But I can hardly imagine systems in low sec with THAT many people, that would be fantastic. |

Olleybear
I R' Carebear
182
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:37:00 -
[528] - Quote
Sylvous wrote:Robinton Jax wrote:I learn something new everytime Olley posts... With you on that one. I knew that CCP had made low sec less inhabited, but I never realized to what degree. I personally felt that this change was huge as I now see about 10% of the activity in the systems I used to frequent. But I can hardly imagine systems in low sec with THAT many people, that would be fantastic. We had a working, well stocked, low sec market as well. Still remember the chatter in MH-Sec when a ganker would buy something in Hedaleofarber from one of the industrial corps. The indi corp would then let MH-Sec channel know "so-and-so just bought a thorax with web and scram" and we would wait for him to jump on someone in the belts and/or try to bait the person in the belts.
Sneaky little industrial anti-pies.  When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 10:34:00 -
[529] - Quote
Did my first months running 1,2 and 3's in Heild and Isotard because I didnt know better. Always somone trying to scan ya down. Made me propper EvE paranoid fast......now, just alliances hanging out afk waiting to go back to null.
Maybe if there was something to do....like 2/10's? people would not be afk and undock.
I know....daft idea. |

Tavisturus
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 04:43:00 -
[530] - Quote
I'm going to go ahead and bump this because I don't want this thread to die.
Also, I need something to read while I poop.
Keep the replies coming.
Also, bring back the static plexes.
Edit: spelling |
|

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 10:31:00 -
[531] - Quote
Spent my night in FW space again....not happy. Like spending a weekend away from home. |

Miss Carry
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 17:09:00 -
[532] - Quote
Hi, my name is Carry!
I used to live in Molden Heath,
when can I come home? |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 10:48:00 -
[533] - Quote
Flew threw Taff area lastnight and saw a bunch of MH regulars afk....was not happy. (yet I was flying thru there myself).
....welll CCP made me get on Forums....now Twitter cause thats all they check? |

Tavisturus
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 19:24:00 -
[534] - Quote
Bump  |

Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew
209
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 12:44:00 -
[535] - Quote
So far PL is not hot dropping solo frigs R1fta only solo cruisers and up. You can come home. Naughty got blapped in a thrasher by a 36 man Razor gang no blobs here. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
133
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 13:11:00 -
[536] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:So far PL is not hot dropping solo frigs R1fta only solo cruisers and up. You can come home. Naughty got blapped in a thrasher by a 36 man Razor gang no blobs here.
yes Molden Heath Infamous Staging Area for Null-Sec fleet operations.
Come for the ambience.........briefly
Then get podded home by a hot-dropped blob!
It sounds much more exciting than the area being a mere dull hangout of piracy and small gang pvp doesn't it.....
|

Miss Carry
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 10:58:00 -
[537] - Quote
I'm a grumpy hobo-pirate |

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
61
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 21:37:00 -
[538] - Quote
The longer we go without a resolution from CCP on this issue, the more and more I think that CCP does not understand their sandbox. If it really is that they saw these plexes as taking away from the game..... I have to ask what they consider good gameplay. More than anything these plexes represent emergent gameplay. CCP used what is essentially the same mechanic to create faction warfare. Not surprisingly faction warfare comes across more like scripted content in comparison to these plexes. |

Miss Carry
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 22:30:00 -
[539] - Quote
Toterra wrote:The longer we go without a resolution from CCP on this issue, the more and more I think that CCP does not understand their sandbox. If it really is that they saw these plexes as taking away from the game..... I have to ask what they consider good gameplay. More than anything these plexes represent emergent gameplay. CCP used what is essentially the same mechanic to create faction warfare. Not surprisingly faction warfare comes across more like scripted content in comparison to these plexes.
it's like they pulled the rug under our feet. maybe they should make the rifter a mining frig, just to make sure we get the point that we're no longer welcome to the party. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
105
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 08:42:00 -
[540] - Quote
Toterra wrote:The longer we go without a resolution from CCP on this issue, the more and more I think that CCP does not understand their sandbox. If it really is that they saw these plexes as taking away from the game..... I have to ask what they consider good gameplay. More than anything these plexes represent emergent gameplay. CCP used what is essentially the same mechanic to create faction warfare. Not surprisingly faction warfare comes across more like scripted content in comparison to these plexes.
This is very well put/observed. Maybe CCP is trying to shepherd the gameplay styles into a select number of groups. As it has been said many times, these complexes promoted emergent gameplay in lowsec. I cannot call FW emergent in the slightest as it was designed to that particular end, and to those who like that style of play it is very successful. But taking away a vibrant focal point of the game from an area that was all ready lacking in content does not seem like the kind of move that a company like CCP would encourage.
I still after 3 months (almost 4) do not understand the benefit that myself and the other dwellers of low sec have received from the removal of these complexes. I know that my gameplay has become considerably less exciting, so if that was the end goal, congrats CCP (slow clap). What I would like to see, or to have really is have Fozzie or another dev give in full detail how myself (generic lowsec dweller) should be enjoying the benefits that have abounded from this supposedly positive change. Clearly I am missing something because I have seen no benefit at all.
Sylvous |
|

Miss Carry
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 11:55:00 -
[541] - Quote
The only "benefit" is see is that you can now sell the few b-type shield boosters you have left for a ridiculous amount of isk.
I mean, c'mon on...100mill for a frig mod?
It makes no sense. |

Vincent R'lyeh
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
135
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 19:58:00 -
[542] - Quote
I don't always fit 100 million isk modules on my 10 million isk frigates
but when I do I go B-Type..... |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 08:57:00 -
[543] - Quote
Bump for Lowsec Justice, Gank'em Style. |

Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
651
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 08:59:00 -
[544] - Quote
Angelus Ryan wrote:Bump for Lowsec Justice, Gank'em Style.
Heh, I was just thinking about bumping our cause back to da top of The Most Neglected By Devs List :) I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 20:18:00 -
[545] - Quote
So I stop playing for a month and it's only gone got worse. A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Rimarole
Lynx Squad Tribal Band
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 04:20:00 -
[546] - Quote
Please bring these DED sites back CCP.
It was a great decision to remove these plexes from high sec. because they were heavily exploited due to the mechanics of highsec. For low sec, it was a very poor decision to move these to exploration sites.These plexes drew many players to these systems, and the rewards for competing against other players were worthy of the risk, and not excessive for the risk that the players were taking. This was a brilliant mechanic that many players enjoyed.
By moving these plexes to the exploration system, the pvp experience in these areas has been greatly diminished. Not only in the systems that these plexes were in, but in the systems that are between these complexes as the players that competed for these resources no longer traffic the area between these plexes. There was a community of players who would move from plex to plex trying to gain control of the plex timer. At any given time, there were several players competing and subsequently there were fantastic firefights for these resources.
The argument could actually be made, that CCP should have sparsely add more of these types of encounters in lowsec and expanding this dynamic by placing sites for cruisers battle cruisers deeper into lowsec. to provide a richer experience for the player base that enjoys small skirmish type warfare. For the frigate, these were the best small gang experience that the game offered and CCP would have done well to slowly expand on this dynamic instead of abruptly removing it from the game alltogether.
These plexes are part of my fondest memories of the game.
CCP, Please bring these back and add a few new ones (maybe a couple of cruiser class plexes too while your at it) as a token of contrition to the small gang warfare community.
Sincerely Rimarole |

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 06:08:00 -
[547] - Quote
Bumped out of frustration.
Just went thru Bos and Heild and nobody.
Whats the proper channel/thread to start rallying behind a canidate for lowsec non Fw PvP? |

Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:47:00 -
[548] - Quote
I don't fly in lowsec - but almost 1k likes. If for CCP this kind of support is not enough - then what is? |

Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
661
|
Posted - 2013.03.05 14:52:00 -
[549] - Quote
Lowsec outside of FW is irrelevant. POS revamp would serve only small number of players. Metrics show nothing is wrong. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

darmwand
Repo.
88
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 10:50:00 -
[550] - Quote
A friendly bump from Placid. darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/ Recruitment is OPEN |
|

Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:21:00 -
[551] - Quote
Not bumping cuz Ded's were camped and farmed in lowsec too (by locals, but still ) especially the profitable - shield mod dropping ones. If you want 'combat grounds' why not ask for more static 'anomalies' with warp gates and ship restrictions (with some rats inside and occasional, once in a million faction spawn).
What I'd like to see is more low-level Ded's spawning in explo system. I have actually yet to see ANY 1 and 2's since the changes and I've had a decent number of the 3,4 and 5's. It's kinda silly . |

Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
666
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:34:00 -
[552] - Quote
We don't want "combat grounds" designed and given to us by devs to explode our pixels. We want our emergent gameplay opportunities back.
We made static sites into what they were not devs. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 14:52:00 -
[553] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:We don't want "combat grounds" designed and given to us by devs to explode our pixels. We want our emergent gameplay opportunities back.
We made static sites into what they were not devs.
So, let's see, as far as I understand all the whining here comes to 'oh they took our PvP grounds away' argument. So what I proposed provides:
- ship restrictions - check - potential for good loot (much rarer compared to DED tho), incentive to enter and check it out w/o farming - check
So how is that bad? Sorry but static ded's were just good isk w/o effort for a lot of people (I know cuz I used to run them too). Their removal actually happened in good part because of the abuse that was going on and now people reap the rewards of their behaviour. |

Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
666
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:20:00 -
[554] - Quote
Your extensive lowsec killboard and employment records really make your opinion valuable for this thread  I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |

Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:41:00 -
[555] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Your extensive lowsec killboard and employment records really make your opinion valuable for this thread 
Your ability to discuss the issue at hand using adequate arguments instead of turning this into an analysis of personal KB's makes your opinion even more valuable...  Also, most impressive KB record on your side if I may notice. |

Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 15:57:00 -
[556] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote: So, let's see, as far as I understand all the whining here comes to 'oh they took our PvP grounds away' argument.
Yet another person failing to understand what the entire thread is about.
No, it isn't about "PvP grounds". Nobody here wants "PvP Grounds". We don't want "(Faction) non-consentual elite PvP staging point", either. I am anything but an elite PvPer. I am a friggin' lowsec scumbag pirate. If I wanted staged combat I'd go and ask for 1v1s in highsec, rather than going -10 and shooting people in the face in lowsec.
What we want is a resource, valuable enough to fight over, in lowsec (hint: "once in a million faction spawn" is not valuable enough. 10-15mil average drop every couple of hours is, as the 2/10s have proven), which is not valuable enough for group control of said resource, leading to solo and VERY small groups of people fighting in and around said resource.
2/10s were near perfect, except for the ability to camp the spawn in the last room, although I've personally chased a lot of people out of said last room with spare keys, or I just killed them there.
Everyone here admitted about 25 times that the farming was a problem and 159 fixes were proposed, to boot. The simplest one: Remove the friggin' keys. Make them into a single deadspace room, with a X minute respawn timer and no key. That's all it takes. Impossible to farm (unless you actively fight to defend your position, in which case you're successfully controlling said resource, and everything works as planned).
There, I just gave you a tl;dr for the whole thread, free of charge. |

Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 16:55:00 -
[557] - Quote
Thanks for tl;dr and I see your point. The thing is - the title of this thread is sort of a misnomer, and all the people just bumping it would be providing support for a system that was obviously broken. So if title was "replace 2/10 plexes and this is how.." with changes taking into account all that you said there wouldn't be a single person not supporting you I guess (me included).
Being in FW, I know about the goodness plexes can provide for small gang PvP aficionados and I think they are a good mechanic. So, if re-introduced, these new 'sites' should be conceptualised in a different way from what static DEDs provided. What the difference(s) would be I haven't really thought out completely but it could include removal of site's static nature (spawns spreads across systems in a region), maybe lower but more frequent rewards (in terms of bounties perhaps or lower level faction modules) and obviously all the changes which would prevent farming. There is a lot that could be done in a better way, but just returning it to what it was before would be pretty bad, that's all I was trying to say ;).
|

Toterra
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.06 17:56:00 -
[558] - Quote
Every-time I go back to this thread I get depressed. If CCP is against farming I guess we will see FW removed next patch, along with null-sec anomolies, moon-goo and incursions. Not much of the game is going to be lest. Ironically, these 2/10 plexes were the least farmed things I just mentioned, yet somehow I think they are going to be the only ones removed ... LOL
Why does CCP replace emergent content with content that is easy to farm ??? |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 16:25:00 -
[559] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:Thanks for tl;dr and I see your point. The thing is - the title of this thread is sort of a misnomer, and all the people just bumping it would be providing support for a system that was obviously broken. So if title was "replace 2/10 plexes and this is how.." with changes taking into account all that you said there wouldn't be a single person not supporting you I guess (me included).
Being in FW, I know about the goodness plexes can provide for small gang PvP aficionados and I think they are a good mechanic. So, if re-introduced, these new 'sites' should be conceptualised in a different way from what static DEDs provided. What the difference(s) would be I haven't really thought out completely but it could include removal of site's static nature (spawns spreads across systems in a region), maybe lower but more frequent rewards (in terms of bounties perhaps or lower level faction modules) and obviously all the changes which would prevent farming. There is a lot that could be done in a better way, but just returning it to what it was before would be pretty bad, that's all I was trying to say ;).
The tl;dr nature of this thread is shining in all its glory here, which is a testament to how much the removal of these plexes have effected game play (in that we could generate over 28 pages of responses, albeit the last two are almost just bumps... almost).
Randomized spawn locations was discussed a long while back, and it was obvious to all that it is a bad idea given what these complexes were used for. We want a ground to fight on, and a place to fight at, if you make a PVE site that despawns after being run then you are getting just that, more PVE content that isn't generating much or any PVP since the site can be run in such a short period of time and will subsequently despawn. Its the static nature of the complexes that made the fights happen.
Now here's the catch when it comes to making the sites less valuable with the chances of faction spawns (referring to what you said in a previous post), it won't work. There used to be a 1/10 angel run minmatar biofarm (or something along that line). It was a fairly terrible complex with the chance that it would occasionally drop faction loot. Anyone who lived in the areas that these things existed can attest that they were never run, because no one wants to put in time for such a small chance of getting something worth while. My point is that it would not be worth fighting over, and that's the real driver of this game, "worth." The fights you have need to be worth it. More often than not the 2/10's would not drop loot, but they did make good isk when you had some success. But reintroducing a site that is essentially a place for "elite pvp" will not work. There are all ready ruined minmatar outposts that act as beacons in several systems, and they see almost no activity as well.
There have been many and more suggestions on how to fix the broken aspects of the complexes as Angelus Ryan pointed out. It's just a matter of digging through our many pages of content (sorry about that).
There really hasn't been any development on how to improve the complexes since well before CCP Fozzie told us we are all better off now that they are removed. This is not because we are unwilling to discuss the topic, but rather we the content users were so into making a sensible fix that we exhausted most of the good ideas well before CCP actually looked at the thread. I'm not saying that there aren't any good ideas out there now, its just that we have all put a lot of time into trying to come up with plausible ideas all ready.
In short: I have not proposed anything new or groundbreaking in this post here, I am just acting as a reminder that the "problems/fixes" that you proposed have all been discussed thoroughly. |

Miura Bull
Black Laser Movement
47
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 01:55:00 -
[560] - Quote
There was a dream that was Heild. You could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper and it would vanish, it was so fragile. |
|

Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
32
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:38:00 -
[561] - Quote
Back in the good days this emergent small gang pvp community* built around these plexes in Molden Heath was there to unite and fight against "the big blobby aggressors" of E-Uni. None of that could happen now days as theres no ground to hold... It was kind of low-sec sov war fighting for low-sec moon goo.
*bunch of people that liked to shoot each other.
I still wonder why those sites were moved into the exploration system BUT at the same time they were removed from low-sec completely. They just don't spawn there. Basically CCP nerfed low-sec at least twice. But then again, I never did any of this so what do I know. |

StahlWaffe
Dark Shadows Of The Night Hopeless Addiction
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:57:00 -
[562] - Quote
After returning it's really not nice to hear my first pvp proving grounds got removed. I remember having a good time around Teonosude or whatever the highsec system was called with a bunch of lowsec 2/10s around, and although i never did very much down there, i think i might have flown there several times within the last 1 or 2 weeks to get some instant pvp. Then again i'm in FW now so i can shoot anyways, although every cruiser there goes 4km/s and is linked and boosted into oblivion.
Bring back anything that's worth fighting over in 'normal', non-FW lowsec. Be it the old 1/10 and 2/10, or be it some new, thunderdomeish frigate graveyard that attracts opportunists from all of new eden in tiny, shiny ships with glorious stories to be told. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:09:00 -
[563] - Quote
StahlWaffe wrote:After returning it's really not nice to hear my first pvp proving grounds got removed. I remember having a good time around Teonosude or whatever the highsec system was called with a bunch of lowsec 2/10s around, and although i never did very much down there, i think i might have flown there several times within the last 1 or 2 weeks to get some instant pvp. Then again i'm in FW now so i can shoot anyways, although every cruiser there goes 4km/s and is linked and boosted into oblivion.
Bring back anything that's worth fighting over in 'normal', non-FW lowsec. Be it the old 1/10 and 2/10, or be it some new, thunderdomeish frigate graveyard that attracts opportunists from all of new eden in tiny, shiny ships with glorious stories to be told.
Yeah, but whatever the payoffs, they need to justify the risk you are taking. It can't make you as much as another activity that you can do while being safe otherwise there is no draw to come do it. That's the reason the 1/10 and 2/10 worked so well, they had a good draw/reason to fight. |

Toterra
Eighteen Twelve.
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 16:17:00 -
[564] - Quote
Just got back into faction warfare. I can confirm... absolutely no farming of sites there. No-siree!
Here is an nice example of the PVP farming-free playground that is faction warfare. |

Etuura Zellis
The Tuskers
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 22:40:00 -
[565] - Quote
Sorta like http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16462358 and http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16464058. Apparently copy paste is required for all links these days....
Nope not farmed at all. Clearly (not bots even)  |

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated You've got RED on you
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 21:02:00 -
[566] - Quote
I would love to see CCP provide us with the metrics for the lowsec systems that hosted these plexes before they disappeared and now, and then try to bullshit us that PvP in lowsec has increased.
A Pirate's Perspective Official EVE Online Fan Site |

Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 16:26:00 -
[567] - Quote
Toterra wrote:Just got back into faction warfare. I can confirm... absolutely no farming of sites there. No-siree!
Etuura Zellis wrote:Nope not farmed at all. Clearly (not bots even) Noone said that FW was fine as it is now. In fact, if you pay attention to FW related threads in W&T part of forum, you'll notice that majority of non-farming FW community has been very vocal about changes required in order to remove or at least discourage farming alt locust swarm which currently dictates svings in sov mechanics. However, FW plexes have provided a lot of nice fights so I'm sure something similar could be introduced to the rest of lowsec. The fact that FW is broken atm is no excuse for requiring another broken mechanism, which DEDs were, back. They should be replaced by something else which will be hard to farm and potentially rewarding, thus a conflict driver. Now, what it should be I'll leave to CCP to work out, we are paying them for that after all.
Anyway, summer expansion details will be out in 2 days so fingers crossed |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
111
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 20:19:00 -
[568] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:Noone said that FW was fine as it is now. In fact, if you pay attention to FW related threads in W&T part of forum, you'll notice that majority of non-farming FW community has been very vocal about changes required in order to remove or at least discourage farming alt locust swarm which currently dictates svings in sov mechanics. However, FW plexes have provided a lot of nice fights so I'm sure something similar could be introduced to the rest of lowsec. The fact that FW is broken atm is no excuse for requiring another broken mechanism, which DEDs were, back. They should be replaced by something else which will be hard to farm and potentially rewarding, thus a conflict driver. Now, what it should be I'll leave to CCP to work out, we are paying them for that after all. Anyway, summer expansion details will be out in 2 days so fingers crossed 
Well I do agree with you that this thread is turning into a blatant comparison of FW to the old DED's, and I also agree that they are being abused in much the same way, there are a few points that need to be made.
The fact of the matter is that non FW space can't have the same mechanics for payout since there is no systems changing hands, and LP to be earned from completing these complexes. A fact that I am very much in support of. What we are looking for is not a vanilla FW like complex which would make all of lowsec homogenous, we are looking for something that makes FW space unique, and the other places (non FW space if we must) unique. The DED sites did that admirable, and like FW there were some issues with the sites that were 100% worth fixing. If you would take the time to read the first 400 some odd posts about this you will see that we have come up with many solutions that break the abusable aspect of these plexes and promote competitive PVP for the right to run one of these sites and just maybe get a DED drop.
If all CCP wants is to make FW space different from the rest of lowsec they have all ready done that. The rest of lowsec kind of sucks now with very little exciting PVP. Like it has been said many times, the systems that housed these sites provided a huge number of good fights a week. And I find it incredibly hard to imagine that their removal has done anything but harm the lowsec community, and those seeking lowsec as a gateway to meaningful PVP.
I Will have to agree with Kane Rizzel on this one, CCP owes us some metrics showing us how all of lowsec has benefited from the removal of these complexes. Bearing in mind that they also made some excellent other changes. (if a doctor cures an ailment and shoots you in the leg with a gun, they can't claim that you are better off for being shot in the leg)
Sylvous
|

Dro Nee
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 03:11:00 -
[569] - Quote
It appears posting is futile but:
I just came back from a break. Since I now have a computer that gets more than 15fps.... in map mode.... I was looking forward to going back to my lowsec life. I JC'd to my old home in Hiematar. Local had a bunch of unfamiliar faces and I think "sweet!" I undock, swing my camera over to check if they are in the 2/10 plex........only to find my favorite landmark no longer there. I frantically try and get the old chat channel up..... only to find it deserted. It doesnt look like any of them log-in anymore. So the removal of 2/10's seems to have removed fun and friends from the game. Needless to say I am bummed.
2/10's is where I cut my PVP teeth. In the early days that plex is what kept me in ships. It also kept me in fights and, more importantly, in lowsec. I used to tell everyone in noobcorp about how fun they were and how they could use them to even out the odds. Granted, that was before they became high-sp, shiny fit central.
I applaud CCP for attempting to remove the farming that was occurring in those sites (hello SB+ hourly pickup character........ you know who you are!). After the original frig and AF buffs the loot drops became too lucrative so I would have even been ok with killing the drop rates. Some folks want to treat them as mini-sov resources- claiming that they should be lucrative enough to make people want to 'own' the system, but I bet they would still prefer reduced loot to what they got. IMO the ISK was never what made 2/10's special though.... so if a reduced drop is unacceptable they can DIAF 
What made them special, for me, was that it was one of the last places where terrain mattered. Individuals who knew the terrain could leverage it to fight groups who did not, instead of having to resort to the standard safe/dock/leeroy SOP that is no fun for anybody. Now I used and abused that terrain, sometimes pushing too far in retrospect (cough*mobile repair stations one the edge of deadspace*cough). Those types of things were pretty minor though and hardly constituted a situation calling for removing the site. A few creative touches, like when the deadspace boundary started moving every 3-4 weeks, would have sufficed.
All in all, you (CCP) sacrificed something that was largely working in lowsec in the name of homogeneity. Hell has a special place set aside for people who do that. REPENT YE SINNERS BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!
[/whine] |

Sylvia Nardieu
Audacity.
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 10:36:00 -
[570] - Quote
Sylvous wrote: I Will have to agree with Kane Rizzel on this one, CCP owes us some metrics showing us how all of lowsec has benefited from the removal of these complexes. Bearing in mind that they also made some excellent other changes. (if a doctor cures an ailment and shoots you in the leg with a gun, they can't claim that you are better off for being shot in the leg)
Sylvous
Although I've "only" been playing the game for a year and a half I've learned that CCP tends to screw things up nicely before screwing them a bit more and then maybe, just maybe gets it right. They did it with FW with initial tier/LP changes which caused the alt gold rush, then remedied it a bit with changes in November, only to screw it up again with Retribution. Hopefully by summer they'll figure out what they did and sort it out. One year in total . FW peeps have to either weather this storm or give up participating (which some of them did). Along same lines I wouldn't hold my breath for quick changes in the rest of low-sec. However, the fact that summer expansion mentions all the topics relevant to this thread (exploration complexes, redistribution of resources, new content etc.) might mean that there actually might be some light at the end of the tunnel for low-sec. |
|

Robinton Jax
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:31:00 -
[571] - Quote
Bump just because I'm too head strong and bitter to let this go. |

Toterra
Eighteen Twelve.
64
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 03:46:00 -
[572] - Quote
Whoever removed this feature... I want them to read the following two blogs...
Kane Rizzel's Not Going to Lie
And Said Caid's response and sympathizing with it For Kane 2
This is quite seriously all your doing! These are two guys who have done more for the EVE community then you can imagine. Is it really your intention for guys like this to be feeling like they have been put out to pasture. |

El Geo
Pathfinders. The Marmite Collective
83
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 02:10:00 -
[573] - Quote
PvP grounds my hairy nipple, they we're overfarmed by people and are better off in the exploration queue although I personally would have preferred the were constellation anomalies and not signatures. path-+find-+er (pthfndr, p+ñth-)n. 1. One that discovers a new course or way, especially through or into unexplored regions.
http://www.youtube.com/user/EvEPathfinders/videos?view=0 |

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
544
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 03:57:00 -
[574] - Quote
El Geo wrote:PvP grounds my hairy nipple, they we're overfarmed by people and are better off in the exploration queue although I personally would have preferred the were constellation anomalies and not signatures.
Even if it were overfarmed, Ill still bet they were farmed an order of magnitude less than level 4 missions. Level 4 missions provide both more isk and less pvp content |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
113
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 07:58:00 -
[575] - Quote
El Geo wrote:PvP grounds my hairy nipple, they we're overfarmed by people and are better off in the exploration queue although I personally would have preferred the were constellation anomalies and not signatures.
Just in case you didn't catch this (you wouldn't be the first). We were of course referring to low sec static plexes, not the high sec ones. God knows those were a broken system, may they stay gone for ever. However it function very differently in low.
Made it hard for me to get above -9.5
(miss those times) |

El Geo
Pathfinders. The Marmite Collective
83
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 09:05:00 -
[576] - Quote
Like I said, I believe DED 1/10 and 2/10 should be constellation anomalies and possibly show up on the overview when warped to for everyone.
I believe this is the only real solution that creates the old situation of local competition and gets rid of those pesky sods who sit in the last room farming all day, also some lowsec sites were heavily farmed, granted maybe not the deep ones but the shallow for sure.
Ofc odyssey will be out soon with a whole new system anyway so.... path-+find-+er (pthfndr, p+ñth-)n. 1. One that discovers a new course or way, especially through or into unexplored regions.
http://www.youtube.com/user/EvEPathfinders/videos?view=0 |

Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company Honey Badger Coalition
126
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 09:24:00 -
[577] - Quote
El Geo wrote:also some lowsec sites were heavily farmed, granted maybe not the deep ones but the shallow for sure.
The fun thing about Lowsec Farmers though was being able to kill them with relative ease. Even the most careful ones could either be killed with a little bit of preparation, or could be denied farming.
Unlike Highsec. |

Miss Carry
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
9
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:48:00 -
[578] - Quote
and their ships sometimes had all the shinies from the plex fitted ;)
mwhaha |

Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company Honey Badger Coalition
133
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 16:50:00 -
[579] - Quote
I really hope with the announced new dimension of exploration or whatever in odyssey, they add something comparable to this again.
Stealth Bump. |

Malfyrion
The Tuskers
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 16:04:00 -
[580] - Quote
I will never yield to silence! bump bump Mother*bleeper* |
|

Angelus Ryan
Ama Nesciri.
28
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 12:55:00 -
[581] - Quote
We will not forget. |

Malfyrion
The Tuskers
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 17:58:00 -
[582] - Quote
Angelus Ryan wrote:We will not forget.
We will not forgive.
|

Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company
153
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 18:00:00 -
[583] - Quote
For we like frigates and lowsec. |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 19:51:00 -
[584] - Quote
So are the NPC's in belts that drop tags that can be traded for sec status the replacement to what was one of the best features in EVE? Or is it just an addition?
I am hoping it is the latter of the two, because I fail to see how this will create the same kind of elite frigate game play. |

Toterra
Eighteen Twelve.
64
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 18:33:00 -
[585] - Quote
Bump |

McF33
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.24 15:14:00 -
[586] - Quote
Bump Bump |

Angelus Ryan
Ama Nesciri.
36
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 06:48:00 -
[587] - Quote
Sylvous wrote:So are the NPC's in belts that drop tags that can be traded for sec status the replacement to what was one of the best features in EVE? Or is it just an addition?
I am hoping it is the latter of the two, because I fail to see how this will create the same kind of elite frigate game play.
No, the replacement is our ability to farm lowsec explorers while they are busy with the hacking minigame.
Glorious, glorious battle, indeed.
But hey, at least sister probe launchers pay the bills! |

Angelus Ryan
Ama Nesciri.
37
|
Posted - 2013.07.11 13:48:00 -
[588] - Quote
Bump for Justice!
"This Used to Be My Playground" / Madonna
This used to be my playground (used to be) This used to be my childhood dream This used to be the place I ran to Whenever I was in need Of a friend Why did it have to end And why do they always say
Don't look back Keep your head held high Don't ask them why Because life is short And before you know You're feeling old And your heart is breaking Don't hold on to the past Well that's too much to ask
[Long and movie versions only:]
[chorus] Live and learn Well the years they flew And we never knew We were foolish then We would never tire And that little fire Is still alive in me It will never go away Can't say goodbye to yesterday (can't say goodbye)
[chorus]
No regrets But I wish that you Were here with me Well then there's hope yet I can see your face In our secret place You're not just a memory Say goodbye to yesterday (the dream) Those are words I'll never say (I'll never say)
This used to be my playground (used to be) This used to be our pride and joy This used to be the place we ran to That no one in the world could dare destroy
[Short and movie versions only:]
This used to be our playground (used to be) This used to be our childhood dream This used to be the place we ran to I wish you were standing here with me
[Movie version only:]
This used to be our playground (used to be) This used to be our great escape This used to be the place we ran to This used to be our secret hiding place
This used to be our playground (used to be) This used to be our childhood dream This used to be the place we ran to The best things in life are always free Wishing you were here with me |

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
120
|
Posted - 2013.07.11 19:14:00 -
[589] - Quote
We should just get the low sec static complexes added to the "small things" list for the CSM.
|

Cassius Clayy
Dred Nots
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 08:31:00 -
[590] - Quote
For great justice!
Angelus Ryan wrote:Bump for Justice!
"This Used to Be My Playground" / Madonna
This used to be my playground (used to be) This used to be my childhood dream This used to be the place I ran to Whenever I was in need Of a friend Why did it have to end And why do they always say
Don't look back Keep your head held high Don't ask them why Because life is short And before you know You're feeling old And your heart is breaking Don't hold on to the past Well that's too much to ask
[Long and movie versions only:]
[chorus] Live and learn Well the years they flew And we never knew We were foolish then We would never tire And that little fire Is still alive in me It will never go away Can't say goodbye to yesterday (can't say goodbye)
[chorus]
No regrets But I wish that you Were here with me Well then there's hope yet I can see your face In our secret place You're not just a memory Say goodbye to yesterday (the dream) Those are words I'll never say (I'll never say)
This used to be my playground (used to be) This used to be our pride and joy This used to be the place we ran to That no one in the world could dare destroy
[Short and movie versions only:]
This used to be our playground (used to be) This used to be our childhood dream This used to be the place we ran to I wish you were standing here with me
[Movie version only:]
This used to be our playground (used to be) This used to be our great escape This used to be the place we ran to This used to be our secret hiding place
This used to be our playground (used to be) This used to be our childhood dream This used to be the place we ran to The best things in life are always free Wishing you were here with me
|
|

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
365
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 18:31:00 -
[591] - Quote
...Not forgetting...
Clone rats are a nice lil thingy (and better iskies to be honest) but no replacement and FW still sucks compared to the fights in these. |

Toterra
Eighteen Twelve.
71
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:37:00 -
[592] - Quote
I was just listening to crossing zebra's episode 28. Perfect example of what was wrong with this change. The lowsec lifestyle and community is continuously gutted by CCP. This was one largish community that was destroyed, and I still don't know why. |

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
394
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 20:57:00 -
[593] - Quote
I say that ccp should bring back all of the static plexes, even if they are empty of rats and rewards. Landmarks are important in a game like eve and where you get landmarks like the plexes it makes the universe seem more alive and worth exploring. Not all exploration should be done with a probe scanner. There is great enjoyment to be had just flying around and randomly finding things which is why I really liked the Algintal constellation when I first joined the game. Now if you just happen to bump into someone else at those landmarks and pvp ensues that's a bonus.
Ships meet at points of interest and conflict often occurs at the same points of interest, if you remove the points of interest/landmarks then I think collectively the game is poorer. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |

Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 21:17:00 -
[594] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:I say that ccp should bring back all of the static plexes, even if they are empty of rats and rewards. Landmarks are important in a game like eve and where you get landmarks like the plexes it makes the universe seem more alive and worth exploring. Not all exploration should be done with a probe scanner. There is great enjoyment to be had just flying around and randomly finding things which is why I really liked the Algintal constellation when I first joined the game. Now if you just happen to bump into someone else at those landmarks and pvp ensues that's a bonus.
Ships meet at points of interest and conflict often occurs at the same points of interest, if you remove the points of interest/landmarks then I think collectively the game is poorer.
There's plenty of landmarks that noone goes to. There has to be some incentive to go and do those sites so they bring people in. But there is FW now. It's easier to abuse for isk and you don't even need to fit your ship to do so. Who cares about pvp. |

Jaison Savrin
Cobalt Academy Catastrophic Uprising
113
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 22:58:00 -
[595] - Quote
So, I avoid low sec like the plague. You know, only use cloaky ships and JF services to get through it. However, after reading this thread I feel like I missed something pretty interesting in these 1/10 and 2/10 sites. Too bad they are gone. Oh well, guess I'll just keep moving on to null. I have some anoms to run for actual profit. |

Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
41
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 10:00:00 -
[596] - Quote
Aaand, they're back. Just not as statics.
Man, CCP can't decide on ~METRICS~ it seems.
And its being trumpeted up as a "feature" of Rubicon.  |

Randy Wray
Filthy Casuals
101
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 12:15:00 -
[597] - Quote
http://themittani.com/features/sovereign-gaming-league-eve-tournaments-incoming
In the article frigate only pvp tournaments were mentioned, will we possibly see the static pvp complexes introduced as a way to support this? Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @-áhttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec
twitch.tv/randywray |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
578
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 13:10:00 -
[598] - Quote
Angelus Ryan wrote:Aaand, they're back. Just not as statics. Man, CCP can't decide on ~METRICS~ it seems. And its being trumpeted up as a "feature" of Rubicon. 
Please explain.
I did hear the baby faced guy say something about dropping one of those station things at the landmark beacons so "you can have a secret pirate base" or something along those lines....can they be upgraded to have a chance to spawn a faction drop? If not we can just call them space junk? |

Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
42
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 14:11:00 -
[599] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Angelus Ryan wrote:Aaand, they're back. Just not as statics. Man, CCP can't decide on ~METRICS~ it seems. And its being trumpeted up as a "feature" of Rubicon.  Please explain. I did hear the baby faced guy say something about dropping one of those station things at the landmark beacons so "you can have a secret pirate base" or something along those lines....can they be upgraded to have a chance to spawn a faction drop? If not we can just call them space junk?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291758 |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
582
|
Posted - 2013.11.01 21:03:00 -
[600] - Quote
Angelus Ryan wrote:Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Angelus Ryan wrote:Aaand, they're back. Just not as statics. Man, CCP can't decide on ~METRICS~ it seems. And its being trumpeted up as a "feature" of Rubicon.  Please explain. I did hear the baby faced guy say something about dropping one of those station things at the landmark beacons so "you can have a secret pirate base" or something along those lines....can they be upgraded to have a chance to spawn a faction drop? If not we can just call them space junk? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291758
I guess it will be another year until they realize they're handing us more faction drops on a silver platter with far less risk than the statics. I wonder if they'll have the same fun gate key mechanics so I can hold 1/10s hostage waiting for gimped prober fits to try it. Lovely pve content right there baby! 
I like the part about new players getting locked out of high sec. What a load of bullshit... |
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