What are the "static ISK fountains" in nullsec?

4. High sec
working as intended.

We are all aware of the situation out there in null sec.

What is our problem is when we start seeing threads on a consistent basis generated by null alliance members or their alts.

threads that attempt to erode the very nature of eve.

Lets examine the sectors of space that eve is split into and decide whether they need attention.

1. Null Sec
working as intended? Probably not. The conflict drivers appear to be broken. Sov battles are soul destroying and a chore. Static ISK fountains. Force projection. Lots and lots of areas requiring work.

2. Worm Holes
no complaints, the inhabitants of worm holes appear to be the happiest eve players at the moment.

3. Low sec
Under populated. No unique reason to visit this area in terms of resources but FW is providing much needed life. FW working much better than first implementation but still requires additional iterations.

4. High sec
working as intended. Combat still occurs here on a regular basis. As the NPC factions control these areas of space it seems logical that they are the safest to gather many resources in - most secure and policed. High end resources and rewards such as moon goo, faction and officer items and high end minerals are not available here - rightly. NPC corporations provide somewhere for new pilots to start but also for many of our alts to work from.

if I was to prioritise CCPs workload for the coming year based on system security my list would look like this:
1. null sec
2. low sec
3. high sec and worm holes.

What we are experiencing at the minute is the conquering armies of null sec running out of things to conquer. They have hit a hard edge - partly through their own actions and partly through CCPs game design. As a result of hitting that edge they have turned inward - where could they conquer next?

low sec is sort of pointless - by default if you own null sec you can use your resources to take low sec so mentally you already own these areas. Worm holes dont allow force projection which makes them a much tougher nut to crack. This is easily seen by the lack of any of the large null sec alliances as a force in worm hole conquest.

which leaves high sec. If CCP are lobbied enough they will look to change high sec - a little here, a little there, until the conditions are such that the conquering hoardes can move in and allow our faction NPC empires to be rulers in name only.

Increasing the problem further is the fact that each account has 3 character slots. We know from previous experience that CCP keep an eye on these forums. Major threadnoughts in the past have gotten their attention. In effect with 3 characters per account the current residents of null sec that are pushing for game change in empire can create a thread that looks like lively discussion but in fact is all the same people having a conversation.

to those of us living freely in our own area of the sandbox ask the following:

of a given request for change, who will benefit most?

Lowsec isn't "FW". FW is just a small part of the lowsec area.

Get out.

3. Low sec
Under populated. No unique reason to visit this area in terms of resources but FW is providing much needed life. FW working much better than first implementation but still requires additional iterations.

We love to post, this should not surprise anyone- however, post locations and methods of static isk fountains please.

I really really hope you're not talking about anomalies. I spent 2 1/2 hours last night and farmed up 200m with an ishtar. Sure I could do a little better and a little worse with different ships and fighters and such. All the while dodging hostile gangs.

I think I could do a little better in highsec with L4 missions and not even have to pay attention. So- where are the isk fountains?

When an ostrich burries its head in the sand, my gun doesn't vanish; I still shoot it.

That's pretty much the impression I get from this thread.

Focus on null, and no one will notice that there are high sec mechanics that are directly related to many peoples problems with null sec.


I bet you would ingore the stain on your ceiling as well.
Untill your roof falls on you while you're sleeping.

Simple fix to hisec industry stuff.

Turn 20 slots into 10, award all current items in queue completed to owners (It is a fair thing).
Thus the hisec matter is solved as now its make a POS or go expand out over the slots.

Time takes is 1 dt.
Well maybe more depending on the awarding of items.

Also there was a thread already posted of the moons.
Why?
Because time travel

Simple fix to hisec industry stuff.

Turn 20 slots into 10, award all current items in queue completed to owners (It is a fair thing).
Thus the hisec matter is solved as now its make a POS or go expand out over the slots.

Time takes is 1 dt.
Well maybe more depending on the awarding of items.

Also there was a thread already posted of the moons.
Why?
Because time travel

to those of us living freely in our own area of the sandbox ask the following:

of a given request for change, who will benefit most?

Simple fix to hisec industry stuff.

Turn 20 slots into 10, award all current items in queue completed to owners (It is a fair thing).
Thus the hisec matter is solved as now its make a POS or go expand out over the slots.

Time takes is 1 dt.
Well maybe more depending on the awarding of items.

Also there was a thread already posted of the moons.
Why?
Because time travel

Actually this "Fix" would hurt everyone, including those 0.0 power blocks, since they shop at Jita anyways...

Or actually, lets do it, im sure you fellows would love to pay douple price on everything...

Hilarious

Actually this "Fix" would hurt everyone, including those 0.0 power blocks, since they shop at Jita anyways...

Or actually, lets do it, im sure you fellows would love to pay douple price on everything...

This thread has nothing at all to do with Hi sec industry, please take this discussion to the other threads that already exist on the subject.

edit: also interesting to note that although we have many replies from residents of null sec we have no denial whatsoever. Nothing like 'hi sec is crap why would we want anything to do with it?"

As someone else pointed out, it would have to be done with other revamps.

I saw a quote from soundwave floating around that CCP was discussing moving T2 production to .7 and lower systems.
That's effectively the same thing as cutting all available slots in half.


Some of us want MORE production in null, high sec mechanics, combined with current station and system upgrading, forces LESS production in null.

The entire thing is assbackwards. T2 production shouldn't be undermined by high sec, and it is. That's not right when it's null materials that are required to build T2 goods.

High end resources and rewards faction items are not available here - rightly.

There are, in fact, faction spawns, as well as DED-plexes, in high-sec.

What are the "static ISK fountains" in nullsec?

You forgot to mention that everything you need to make T2 items is found in high sec.

The only people who think that nothing is wrong are those that know and dont' want it fixed, and those people who have no understanding of how the different areas of EVE are really connected.

really?

everything you need to make T2 items? Are you sure about that?

faction spawns and DED plexes. What, roughly 1 for every 10 available in null sec? Barely worth factoring in tbh.

When the hell has anyone been saying that?

This is what gets me.

A bunch of peopel point out problems they encounter, that stems from an entire area of the game, and then you geniuses come along and act like we're complaining about something else.

There is no content in the systems that we live in that supports the number of people living in them. Tell me about how empty those NPC null systems are again.

Industry is not segregated. Building in high sec is not self cofined, it impacts every other area of the game, and you guys keep acting like it's "no big deal". As a dedicated null industrialist, I assure you, it's a HUGE ******* deal.

Everything in eve is tied to something else, if not then the PAX Amarra would be going for alot more but since its mostly a useless item it is worth doodoo.
You can say that with a Goon fleet behind you but howbout the single industrialists can I set up shop in an NPC null station, no of course not I'd be pod killed faster then I can say cht.

Ok join a corporation that's in an alliance ha! Goons should talk, they sure make it easy for a player to join don't they.
And no I will not bare my soul just to join a null corp.

I'm not sure I understand how any of that has anything to do with what I wrote?


Being a goon doesn't put more content in our systems, nor does it make it better to produce T2 goods in null sec.

What a shock.
The largest group of null players are constantly on the forums, pointing out the same things over and over. Almost like you've got this huge cross segement of players who have played in more than just a single are of EVE, to know what they're talking about.

Whoda thunk it, right?

We are all aware of the situation out there in null sec.
What is our problem is when we start seeing threads on a consistent basis generated by null alliance members or their alts.
threads that attempt to erode the very nature of eve.

T2 production shouldn't be undermined by high sec, and it is. That's not right when it's null materials that are required to build T2 goods.

Tell you what get your goons buddies onboard and recruit existing industrialist player to live in you're NPC station, give them protection services and they will fill you're NPC station full of items, just drop the requirements that joining must be for SA forums.

Tell you what get your goons buddies onboard and recruit existing industrialist player to live in you're NPC station, give them protection services and they will fill you're NPC station full of items, just drop the requirements that joining must be SA forums.

We already have industrial characters. I have one that I use to build non-capships in nullsec. And I'm considered an oddball for doing it.

Most of our members end up moving their industry operations to highsec for a variety of reasons. If you want to make T2 stuff, it is pretty much required you do it in highsec because it is the only place where you can easily acquire and move large amounts of T2 building materials. Even our members who mine (and yes, we do have guys that enjoy mining for some reason) have been packing up and moving to highsec because of current mineral prices. You can make more consistent income sucking up scordite and pyroxeres a few jumps out of Jita than dealing with spod and maintaining a high industry index in some backwater nullsec system.


Much of our complaints about highsec industry and ideas for nerfs are about getting our own industry guys to move back to nullsec.

then the problem imo is nullsec moving too many moongoo materials to highsec and making T2 production too easy, not the fact that highsec is making T2.

Where do you buy T2 components?


I want players to be able to tax NPC corp members through control of stations in .7-.5, station services on par with high sec ones, and the ability of sov holders to upgrade a system for PvE content that supports more people in there space.

I dont buy them.

....and allowing sov holders to upgrade their space for PVE will just lead to even more null sec bots of said alliances appearing

We already have industrial characters. I have one that I use to build non-capships in nullsec. And I'm considered an oddball for doing it.

Most of our members end up moving their industry operations to highsec for a variety of reasons. If you want to make T2 stuff, it is pretty much required you do it in highsec because it is the only place where you can easily acquire and move large amounts of T2 building materials. Even our members who mine (and yes, we do have guys that enjoy mining for some reason) have been packing up and moving to highsec because of current mineral prices. You can make more consistent income sucking up scordite and pyroxeres a few jumps out of Jita than dealing with spod and maintaining a high industry index in some backwater nullsec system.


Much of our complaints about highsec industry and ideas for nerfs are about getting out own industry guys to move back to nullsec.

systems have been upgradeable for PvE for 3 years now, you certainly sound knowledgeable about what you're talking about

I dont buy them.

....and allowing sov holders to upgrade their space for PVE will just lead to even more null sec bots of said alliances appearing.

We are all aware of the situation out there in null sec.

What is our problem is when we start seeing threads on a consistent basis generated by null alliance members or their alts.

threads that attempt to erode the very nature of eve.

Lets examine the sectors of space that eve is split into and decide whether they need attention.

1. Null Sec
working as intended? Probably not. The conflict drivers appear to be broken. Sov battles are soul destroying and a chore. Static ISK fountains. Force projection. Lots and lots of areas requiring work.

2. Worm Holes
no complaints, the inhabitants of worm holes appear to be the happiest eve players at the moment.

3. Low sec
Under populated. No unique reason to visit this area in terms of resources but FW is providing much needed life. FW working much better than first implementation but still requires additional iterations.

4. High sec
working as intended. Combat still occurs here on a regular basis. As the NPC factions control these areas of space it seems logical that they are the safest to gather many resources in - most secure and policed. High end resources and rewards such as moon goo, faction and officer items and high end minerals are not available here - rightly. NPC corporations provide somewhere for new pilots to start but also for many of our alts to work from.

if I was to prioritise CCPs workload for the coming year based on system security my list would look like this:
1. null sec
2. low sec
3. high sec and worm holes.

What we are experiencing at the minute is the conquering armies of null sec running out of things to conquer. They have hit a hard edge - partly through their own actions and partly through CCPs game design. As a result of hitting that edge they have turned inward - where could they conquer next?

low sec is sort of pointless - by default if you own null sec you can use your resources to take low sec so mentally you already own these areas. Worm holes dont allow force projection which makes them a much tougher nut to crack. This is easily seen by the lack of any of the large null sec alliances as a force in worm hole conquest.

which leaves high sec. If CCP are lobbied enough they will look to change high sec - a little here, a little there, until the conditions are such that the conquering hoardes can move in and allow our faction NPC empires to be rulers in name only.

Increasing the problem further is the fact that each account has 3 character slots. We know from previous experience that CCP keep an eye on these forums. Major threadnoughts in the past have gotten their attention. In effect with 3 characters per account the current residents of null sec that are pushing for game change in empire can create a thread that looks like lively discussion but in fact is all the same people having a conversation.

to those of us living freely in our own area of the sandbox ask the following:

of a given request for change, who will benefit most?

here is the reply to the static income stupidity:

static income

the part i like best is where we have a goon confirming this hehe

in answer to the above post, you are trying to suggest that these same static sources are not also a vital component of T2 production?

try harder.

We love to post, this should not surprise anyone- however, post locations and methods of static isk fountains please.

I really really hope you're not talking about anomalies. I spent 2 1/2 hours last night and farmed up 200m with an ishtar. Sure I could do a little better and a little worse with different ships and fighters and such. All the while dodging hostile gangs.

I think I could do a little better in highsec with L4 missions and not even have to pay attention. So- where are the isk fountains?

Well you most certainly showed the extend of your knowledge here.

I didn't say upgrade FOR PvE content for a reason. I said upgrade for content that supported MORE PEOPLE.



I have to ask, do you know where T2 components come from?

Just amazing....

Here we have the people with a freakin MONOPOLY on the basic building blocks for T2 components saying that u can't get T2 components in null? This from a self appointed Nullsec "industrialist"

And most of the rest of the Nullbears are saying Nerf highsec industry, but don't do it until you buff null industry. I want to keep my cake while eating it too.........

I believe CCP designed this game to have Nullsec as lawless space, not a safe haven for organized industry and production. Which certainly doesn't fit in with Goonswarms vision of what they want THEIR nullsec to be.

They want it all, their way.

Not good for the game, but sure as hell good for Goons.

I believe CCP designed this game to have Nullsec as lawless space, not a safe haven for organized industry and production. Which certainly doesn't fit in with Goonswarms vision of what they want THEIR nullsec to be.

Just amazing....

Here we have the people with a freakin MONOPOLY on the basic building blocks for T2 components saying that u can't get T2 components in null? This from a self appointed Nullsec "industrialist"

And most of the rest of the Nullbears are saying Nerf highsec industry, but don't do it until you buff null industry. I want to keep my cake while eating it too.........

I believe CCP designed this game to have Nullsec as lawless space, not a safe haven for organized industry and production. Which certainly doesn't fit in with Goonswarms vision of what they want THEIR nullsec to be.

They want it all, their way.

Not good for the game, but sure as hell good for Goons.

Here we have the people with a freakin MONOPOLY on the basic building blocks for T2 components saying that u can't get T2 components in null? This from a self appointed Nullsec "industrialist"

We already have industrial characters. I have one that I use to build non-capships in nullsec. And I'm considered an oddball for doing it.

Most of our members end up moving their industry operations to highsec for a variety of reasons. If you want to make T2 stuff, it is pretty much required you do it in highsec because it is the only place where you can easily acquire and move large amounts of T2 building materials. Even our members who mine (and yes, we do have guys that enjoy mining for some reason) have been packing up and moving to highsec because of current mineral prices. You can make more consistent income sucking up scordite and pyroxeres a few jumps out of Jita than dealing with spod and maintaining a high industry index in some backwater nullsec system.


Much of our complaints about highsec industry and ideas for nerfs are about getting out own industry guys to move back to nullsec.

looks like someone actually understands hisec does have an issue that isnt a nullseccer...

honesly its true. Drop hisec's indie slots and one major issue is in check. but it must be done while a nullsec industry revamp happens

Who said anything about making it safe? Unsafe industry is the entire point.

Tell me, do you think the current system, where Goons have maximized the profit they receive for delivering raw Tech, and minimized the manufacturing of said tech into products by outsourcing it to a region flooded with cheap labor that has no recourse but to undercut each other, disadvantages them?

CCP looked at this and decided their work was complete, and would not iterate on nullsec for the next 2 1/2 years after threats of mass unsubs, instead focusing on developing WoW-style raids and Space Barbie.

Hrm... If I didn't know any better, it seems CCP can justify itself with its current subscription numbers.

Tell you what get your goons buddies onboard and recruit existing industrialist player to live in you're NPC station, give them protection services and they will fill you're NPC station full of items, just drop the requirements that joining must be SA forums.

Sir you said earlier that industry in hi is not confined to hi, and that to you as a null industrialist it's a big f'ing deal, one of my problems living in null was the lack of BPC BPO availablility, I tried to change that I got blown to bits trying to "make it" work the problem I had and you have is that most industrialists do not want to be constant targets it's contrary to building.

If you assure me it's a problem then why, can't you sell them to corp mates?

You want higher prices for hi end minerals null has to tighten supply just like OPEC does IRL those Arab states have a conglomeration all working to keep supplies at a certain level, which involves cooperation most nullies can't seem to do.

There is a reason why industry doesn't work in null but it is not hi sec.
See gun toting trigger happy folks, see mineral supply, see moon goo sales, see unable to dock at outposts, it's not a hi sec thing, why can't null sec see this.

I just wonder why you make it sound like it's hi sec's fault null can't get it together but at the same time a Goon said he'd get a fleet of 6000 tornados to visit hi sec but yet I'm supposed to believe industry in null is broken thru and thru?

Sir you said earlier that industry in hi is not confined to hi, and that to you as a null industrialist it's a big f'ing deal, one of my problems living in null was the lack of BPC BPO availablility, I tried to change that I got blown to bits trying to "make it" work the problem I had and you have is that most industrialists do not want to be constant targets it's contrary to building.

If you assure me it's a problem then why, can't you sell them to corp mates?

You want higher prices for hi end minerals null has to tighten supply just like OPEC does IRL those Arab states have a conglomeration all working to keep supplies at a certain level, which involves cooperation most nullies can't seem to do.

But you do know better, don't you?

I'm beginning to see the problem.

You guys seem to think that a single area of null can produce the T2 components that a single industrialist needs.
That's impossible.

The stuff that goes into building T2 goods doesn't come out of a single region of New Eden. Some of it will come from here, some from there, and it all meets in the middle.

High sec is like ancient middle east. Trade routes from Europe, Africa, and Asia all converged in regions of the middle east. An asian trader doesn't deliver silk and spices to Rome or Egypt, they sold them to Roman and Egyptian traders in towns in the middle east.

Some Arab tribes become very wealthy and powerful for as long as those trade routes all converged on thier territory; that is Jita.

You can not fix this with a buff to null sec, it's intended to work this way.
The balance can only come from higher T2 production in high sec through the NPC stations, as well as limitting the available slots for T2 production to encourage more of it being done in PoS and low and null stations.

We are not self sustaining, and you guys keep thinking we are.

I'm only saying record subscription numbers and record current connected users seem to be saying something along the lines of "Our wallet full of money says you are wrong."

As someone who does build stuff I will just take this time to tell you that it is not only far cheaper to build everything in empire and ship it to null but there are also nowhere near enough slots to build much of anything in null sec.

I'm only saying record subscription numbers and record current connected users seem to be saying something along the lines of "Our wallet full of money says you are wrong."

Tell me more about these static fountains. I'd love to go park five accounts right on top of them.

And what happened to those rich states that got fat and lazy, decadent, corrupt, greedy?
If anyone in hi sec is getting rich it ante me....blame the traders they are the one's who set prices I assure you when it comes to trading I stink.

Why won't you large alliances learn to trade moo goo, supplies become tightened in trade hub prices spike moon gooey Louises win?

Im curious about this.

http://eve.1019.net/pos/?ct=00&mod=03030303031N1N1N1N1N1O1O1O1O1O1P1P1P1P1P0V0V0V0V0W0W0W0W0U0U&off=

That has more production slots than a hisec station 5x, they can be traded around if you want to make more and it can be tanked better without losing as much production as a station.
And as there are more moons than stations well why are you complaining?
Aside from logistics but that is separate from your claim.

Im curious about this.

http://eve.1019.net/pos/?ct=00&mod=03030303031N1N1N1N1N1O1O1O1O1O1P1P1P1P1P0V0V0V0V0W0W0W0W0U0U&off=

That has more production slots than a hisec station 5x, they can be traded around if you want to make more and it can be tanked better without losing as much production as a station.
And as there are more moons than stations well why are you complaining?
Aside from logistics but that is separate from your claim.

So we can anchor more than one PoS to a moon now?

And why would you put that in null when you've got even more moons available in high sec; where you don't have to import anything to build.

Of course we are focused on the ALLIANCE you are in.

Scammers, cheaters, self proclaimed destroyers of other folks fun in games for the lulz.

Most of you are very hard to take seriously, despite the fact that some of you are very knowledgeable about the game.

Wow didn't take long for the establishment to jump right into this thread, and the same crowd. Are you guys running a word parsing bot here?

That's a good point Shepard.
What if accessing station services for a highsec station cost a 125m flat fee and 90m isk per month after that.
Then highsec and nullsec industry would legit be on even footing.

That's a good point Shepard.
What if accessing station services for a highsec station cost a 125m flat fee and 90m isk per month after that.
Then highsec and nullsec industry would legit be on even footing.

Increasing the manufacturing tax would definitely help with the isk sink issue, though I am not sure quite how much deflation of the money supply an increase of that magnitude would result in.

Honestly, the feeling I get is that the Goons just want everything that is better to do in high sec made even better to do in Nullsec.

If that is fair, then I guess high sec should get Moon Goo, Killer ratting and plexs, way better exploration, ABC asteroids.

You want equal?

Let's make it really equal.

And PLEASE don't tell me your stations/POS, which are protected by your uncountable minions aren't as safe as high sec operations.

Why?

They raised it once, they saw it did nothing but encouraged peopel to form one man corps. Raise it again, and it does the same.

Higher taxes only starts to be a problem for new players.
It doesn't solve the droping of your corp when there's a wardec, or encourage anyone to join other peoples corps.

Personally, I think going after highsec industry on cost and access to slots would balance out a lot of stuff.

Like a 100x increase in install cost, and 10x increase in per hour costs. And either use better standing to lower install cost or increase max number of slots one can use.

As it is now, you can roll a new industry alt with what ever race and plop them in any faction's station and have everything available for dirt cheap. We already accept standings for lowering refining and sales taxes, and opening POS anchoring based on system security level. There should be standings involved in who gets to use research and manufacturing slots and how much they cost.

And PLEASE don't tell me your stations/POS, which are protected by your uncountable minions aren't as safe as high sec operations.

Good lord, you're like a roadie that doesn't shut up. NIRVANANIRVANANIRVANANIRVANA!

Im curious about this.

http://eve.1019.net/pos/?ct=00&mod=03030303031N1N1N1N1N1O1O1O1O1O1P1P1P1P1P0V0V0V0V0W0W0W0W0U0U&off=

That has more production slots than a hisec station 5x, they can be traded around if you want to make more and it can be tanked better without losing as much production as a station.
And as there are more moons than stations well why are you complaining?
Aside from logistics but that is separate from your claim.

and you are the fast talking promoter who says he can't quite afford to pay the band because of higher than expected costs...


As you drive off in your Ferrari.

I'll let you in on a secret.

It's just a body mod, it's really a trans am under the hood.

A Trans Am?!?! Lucky bastard.

Mine is a 4 cylinder Fiero

in fairness there are some slightly more reasonable suggestions over the last few pages. hundreds of millions to use station services is not one of them hehe! Jobs tied to standings might be worthwhile.


in the midst of all this lets not forget: what is the nature of null sec?

null is (was) the wild west. The frontier land. The edge of the galaxy.

Does it not make sense then in all honesty that the best place to trade is within the walls of the fortresses built by our NPC overlords in high sec?

they are established, they have developed police and navies.

In that light in makes complete sense that the goods flow in to empire then flow back out.

In fact Im under the impression that this (pre-jump freight) was part of the deal - living in null requires logistical nouse. Id like to see the days of goods convoys and escorts back - at least its going to produce some fights.


related to null being the wild west perhaps CCP could cement some of the existing infrastructure. Some of those null stations have been there a long, long time. Maybe give a bonus based on how long the station has been 'stable' and add extra slots based on this? IDK, just throwing stuff out there.

null is (was) the wild west. The frontier land. The edge of the galaxy.

Does it not make sense then in all honesty that the best place to trade is within the walls of the fortresses built by our NPC overlords in high sec?

they are established, they have developed police and navies.

In fact Im under the impression that this (pre-jump freight) was part of the deal - living in null requires logistical nouse. Id like to see the days of goods convoys and escorts back - at least its going to produce some fights.

related to null being the wild west perhaps CCP could cement some of the existing infrastructure. Some of those null stations have been there a long, long time. Maybe give a bonus based on how long the station has been 'stable' and add extra slots based on this? IDK, just throwing stuff out there.

It also costs around 300 mil every 21 days to run a large POS whether you use it or not . Far cheaper to use high sec and just JF it to where we need it.

See now that is a better argument than saying you cant match production in high (as disclosure I ran a large minmatar pos in Namaili and made my first billion that way) you cant make as much profit as a hisec station per item but you can make more profit through sheer volume.

As for the wardeccing and all, I laugh as you can shove the pos in a back water system and work there.
Probably safer than having to deal with the war dec and take down in hisec.

Whatever point is you can build as much in null as in hi, you just find it less risky to riskless to do so in hi.

Does it not make sense then in all honesty that the best place to trade is within the walls of the fortresses built by our NPC overlords in high sec?

See now that is a better argument than saying you cant match production in high (as disclosure I ran a large minmatar pos in Namaili and made my first billion that way) you cant make as much profit as a hisec station per item but you can make more profit through sheer volume.

As for the wardeccing and all, I laugh as you can shove the pos in a back water system and work there.
Probably safer than having to deal with the war dec and take down in hisec.

Whatever point is you can build as much in null as in hi, you just find it less risky to riskless to do so in hi.

No we find that it is far cheaper to run industry jobs in high sec as it is damn near free. Even when you factor in fuel costs you are paying a fraction of the costs you face doing the same job in null sec.

Which is what I said.
You CAN do industry easily in null, you just would rather not face the risk of doing so.

ability != superior

See now that is a better argument than saying you cant match production in high (as disclosure I ran a large minmatar pos in Namaili and made my first billion that way) you cant make as much profit as a hisec station per item but you can make more profit through sheer volume.

As for the wardeccing and all, I laugh as you can shove the pos in a back water system and work there.
Probably safer than having to deal with the war dec and take down in hisec.

Whatever point is you can build as much in null as in hi, you just find it less risky to riskless to do so in hi.

See now that is a better argument than saying you cant match production in high (as disclosure I ran a large minmatar pos in Namaili and made my first billion that way) you cant make as much profit as a hisec station per item but you can make more profit through sheer volume.

As for the wardeccing and all, I laugh as you can shove the pos in a back water system and work there.
Probably safer than having to deal with the war dec and take down in hisec.

Whatever point is you can build as much in null as in hi, you just find it less risky to riskless to do so in hi.

Oh so you wrote "If I didn't know any better" because you read it in a book or something.
I guess that "summer of rage" was actually over nothing and CCP laid of 20% of its success for no reason because according to "Captain Tardbar" CCP was in a really successful financial state at the time. You see he's got this link to "vgchartz.com" where thanks largely to Chinese server growth EVE subs topped 450k - what a relief, Hilmar apologized to the playerbase for nothing!

Great post.

The inhabitants of 0.0 aren't ragtag small gangs of uncivilized explorers. They are standing armies numbering in the thousands that are not only the largest player entities in EVE Online, but the most regimented and coordinated gaming 'clans' of any MMO in existence period.

But that can't happen if highsec industry is in its current state, with its effectively unlimited (able to supply all regions of space effortlessly), free and 99.95% efficient industrial base. Incentivizing industry in a region is impossible when there's a risk-free, cost-free alternative with unlimited capacity. If there was a way of solving null's problems without touching upon highsec whatsoever, I would be wholly for it. So I advocate a sensible balancing where the goal is buff nullsec industry to the point where people living in 0.0 will be able to supply themselves, while reducing highsec capacity (not 'increasing cost') to the poiint where it will still be able to support its own needs but not be able to effortlessly supply all of New Eden's material consumption.

Fine, I could buy your vision of null. But who say have to be economically indpendnets. NO enthity in a game like EVE have to be indipendent, is not healthy for the gameplay. EVE is based just on the fact that all his ocmponents in some way interact and condition one each other, people have to move, trade, interacct, share their gameplay, events happening in 0.0 have to affect high sec, directly or indirectly and vice versa.

Pushing to have EVE universe splitted in totally indipendent areas is the dead for EVE... then why do not split on different servers??

Demanding a 100% economically indipendent null is equivalent to demanding high sec as indipendent safe area. And equally disruptive for the sandbox.

This is not relevant and neither true.

Fine, I could buy your vision of null. But who say have to be economically indpendnets. NO enthity in a game like EVE have to be indipendent, is not healthy for the gameplay. EVE is based just on the fact that all his ocmponents in some way interact and condition one each other, people have to move, trade, interacct, share their gameplay, events happening in 0.0 have to affect high sec, directly or indirectly and vice versa.

Pushing to have EVE universe splitted in totally indipendent areas is the dead for EVE... then why do not split on different servers??

Demanding a 100% economically indipendent null is equivalent to demanding high sec as indipendent safe area. And equally disruptive for the sandbox.

Every null builder in this thread has said they have a high sec alt building for them, and you guys keep telling us everything is fine.

Read that last bit again!

Every null builder in this thread has said they have a high sec alt building for them, and you guys keep telling us everything is fine.

Read that last bit again!

working as intended?

T2 keeps coming up in most of your posts. You say it's wrong that null has to depend on high sec for T2 manufacturing.

Well then I say it's wrong that Empire has to depend on null for the materials to manufacture T2 components.

Do you want to leave us any crumbs at all? Seriously.

I honestly never thought i'd be agreeing with so many goonies in a single thread....

working as intended?

T2 keeps coming up in most of your posts. You say it's wrong that null has to depend on high sec for T2 manufacturing.

Well then I say it's wrong that Empire has to depend on null for the materials to manufacture T2 components.

Do you want to leave us any crumbs at all? Seriously.

You going to complain about how datacores got moved to lowsec with Faction Warfare?

To be fair, I said I build in nullsec, but it is just a hand full in demand T1 items. But is only 1 leg of my finances, along with exporting raw materials and importing finished products.

I could do better in terms of variety and volume manufacturing in highsec though, but I get a perverse sense of fulfillment doing it where the odds are stacked against me.

That's because the ones here are the haggard industrialists the salt of null the vander wall forces of the region.

But yeah high is to good in that it allows everyone to use it.
Perhaps making them npc corp only and then disallowing invention would fix it.
Along with halving the number of slots.
Thus making low look better eliminating thw whole one man corp thing that higher rates would cause.

Yeah I am. WTF does faction warfare have to do with the months I invested in research skills to get datacores?

But we digress.

Have you really done the math re: doing reactions and building your own T2 components in a POS in null?

Since all the reactions in empire have to be done in low sec, how is this all a fault with us poor high sec industry guys?

Funny thing, I remember long ago a fresh noob when trit was under 1 isk, then trit prices rose a bit, then halkageddion came and prices climb and climb I left when a Drake was 25 mil came back and now a Drake is 55 mil and prices for Veldspar were 11 isk then a null alliance puts permanent hulkageddion and prices for Veldspar rose again, how did a hi sec miner cause that. Understand you guys do it to yourself. (Make things harder).

As someone who does build stuff I will just take this time to tell you that it is not only far cheaper to build everything in empire and ship it to null but there are also nowhere near enough slots to build much of anything in null sec.

Because it's a ******* game and people want to be rewarded for doign the HARDER ****?

Why do you have to be that crappy gamer that wants everything easy AND rewarding.
I bet your little league didn't keep game scores either.

Funny thing, I remember long ago a fresh noob when trit was under 1 isk, then trit prices rose a bit, then halkageddion came and prices climb and climb I left when a Drake was 25 mil came back and now a Drake is 55 mil and prices for Veldspar were 11 isk then a null alliance puts permanent hulkageddion and prices for Veldspar rose again, how did a hi sec miner cause that. Understand you guys do it to yourself. (Make things harder).

Yeah I am. WTF does faction warfare have to do with the months I invested in research skills to get datacores?

But we digress.

Have you really done the math re: doing reactions and building your own T2 components in a POS in null?

Since all the reactions in empire have to be done in low sec, how is this all a fault with us poor high sec industry guys?

That's it, I'm out.

F'n Goonz

This is not relevant and neither true.

I started just as those changes happened and plex beat 500 mil.
And yet to me all that it shows is people just keep making more ISK.
That is ISK is seriously inflating in value and thus needs to be deflated.
Probably by a mandatory Concord tax or something.

Point being the prices are a result of no sinks rather than something system.

[quote=Natsett Amuinn][quote=Mistah Ewedynao][quote=Shepard Wong Ogeko][quote=Mistah Ewedynao]

That's it, I'm out.

F'n Goonz

I started just as those changes happened and plex beat 500 mil.
And yet to me all that it shows is people just keep making more ISK.
That is ISK is seriously inflating in value and thus needs to be deflated.
Probably by a mandatory Concord tax or something.

Point being the prices are a result of no sinks rather than something system.

Meanwhile, barges/exhumers got a nice buff, Hulkageddon payouts stopped, and trit rose to around 6isk/unit

Go figure.

Sad part is. F'n goonz dont matter here. I did the hisec indie then lowsec indie and am currently working Wspace and im participating in a conversation about nullsec indie because i have read up on it for months. Funny thing is I admit i have no firsthand experience in nullsec indie but for some reason people are agreeing with me on what i say here.... I wonder why



Maybe because i have blues in nullsec indie groups perhaps?

This whole campaign is about disinformation, just like any other null sec propaganda campaign.

[quote=Sura Sadiva]

You guys are the same group that will constantly through out the "how I want to play" arguement. Guess what, I want to ******* build things in null and feel like I"m contributing to something, and YOU keep forcing me to play in ways I shouldn't have.


Every null builder in this thread has said they have a high sec alt building for them, and you guys keep telling us everything is fine.

Oh they actually stopped paying out?

Much LOL reading this post.
You are clearly completely deluded, or just spamming garbage as propaganda.
You made 80M/hour in an Ishtar, and you think you can make more in L4's????

Wow, just wow.

Wait did you just claim there are no sinks in EVE??

If you are trying to do industry in w-space, then damn, even I feel bad for you.

My bad, I didnt explain myself well.

What I meant is: is not relevant. The fact someone is more organized as group do not mke his gameplay more evaluable or deserving any special attention, when it come to decide how to improve a game plain numbers are more important, and what you ask (right or wrong) regards a minority. The first step is to become aware of this and instead of pushing things as minority lobbies interest try I think is smarter to work to see these needs in a more general and trasversal overhaul.

The attitude, anyone can read in many forum threads as well as on many blogs and so on like "have to be so cause we are more cool" or "we have to dictate this or we're going to harrass CCP playerbase and burn jita) is pretty childish and, in my humble opinions, not going anywhere except promoting the ida in the community that "they're only a minority of ******* wanting to dictate everyone gameplay".

Idea that I know to be largely false; however if it become a common perception one should think about this. If you think that keep giving this idea is good, please keep doing it and good luck.

Not industry in general. But Wspace does have its uses.... Guess many didnt catch that. Damn refining array is pointless though. Completely absolutely pointless... Some of the more fun PVP ive had was in Wspace also. Too bad our current hole hasnt had much

Gee, I didn't know there was a game mechanic that prohibited POS's with assembly arrays in null sec.
News flash for you: Any competent industrialist builds out of a POS, since he wants to keep his char's mfg capabilities maxed, and not rely on the vagaries of station mfg slot availability.

But you knew that already.

This whole campaign is about disinformation, just like any other null sec propaganda campaign.

You want to increase station mfg slots in null, I have no issue with that.
It won't change the fact that null sec players make more money/hour ratting than they can doing industrial work, therefore STILL won't do null sec industry.

I DID do null sec industry, on a corporate level, and we made tons for the corp, but no way was it as much as the income from ratting taxes.

Basically, you want CCP to alter the sandbox to do what you can't: Force your members to do null sec industry by destroying high sec industry and making null sec industry profits as easy as collecting moon goo, or belt ratting, or anom ratting.

Relative to the ISK coming in, yes.
There are sinks but they get less than .1 of all ISK.
Oh and then there is wealth centralization (That is your queue Goons)
Which makes all the ISk end up in certain people's pockets instead of being spread out.

Relative to the ISK coming in, yes.
There are sinks but they get less than .1 of all ISK.
Oh and then there is wealth centralization (That is your queue Goons)
Which makes all the ISk end up in certain people's pockets instead of being spread out.

The refining array is a cruel joke. It should be moved to that new section on the market where they put the captains quarters keys and units of lag.

Jeez, I'm sure that more people didn't increase the demand for things.

1 trit, gtfo.
I started EVE in '05, it was like 4 isk for trit then. WTF.

No matter how much crap you pile up, it's still just a pile of crap.

Edit: WTF, hulkagedon didn't even exist when "trit was 1 isk".
As if no one else here plays the game or is incapable of spotting bullshit.

Here's my 'theory'.

Nullsec's problem is that its design is based around a concept of 0.0 that hasn't actually existed since 2004, as some sort of 'unclaimed wild frontier'. A place where roaming groups of some mining frigates and a couple of industrial haulers (since earlier in the game, everyone had far less SP) would venture out into the unknown dark and belt mine the most valuable resource in the game, which at the time was megacyte. To do this they would have to go through dozens of gate jumps through unknown space, where warp to zero didn't exist, where there were only a handful of carriers in the game and high end min supply would be a incredible journey back and forth to highsec to sell and be manufactured. The trip was assumed to be so dangerous, and the mining yields so low, that only a small amount of high end mins (measured in manhours spent mining) would be needed to build things compared to low-end mineral mining. Despite this, high ends were incredibly lucrative in this dawn era of EVE commanding tens of thousands of ISK per unit.

Then as the game went on, something happened in nullsec. Players started gaining more and more SP, meaning they could mine more, haul more, fight harder. Mining frigates gave way to mining cruisers which gave way to mining battleships and finally culminated with the addition of mining barges. Disorganized and weak nullsec explorers naturally gave way to more stable, more organized and overall more effective groups who as a result could secure output more regularly then when the game was initially designed. They in turn formed alliances (later supported in-game) with other groups for additional stability. In addition, carriers, which at once point were merely mythical, became more and more accessible as characters continued to gain SP and cumulative resources of all kinds continued to become more abundant. Since 'cargo bay' and 'ship bay' weren't differentiated back in those days, the increasingly simple transport of increasing amounts of mega/zydrine all combined to lower the ISK income per nullsec inhabitant. This steady devaluation eventually killed nullsec mining (the ostensible reason for breaking into 0.0) and other ways of gaining high-end minerals became the norm, namely loot reprocessing, because by now ratting was by far a superior source of income.

So nullsec was already broken by my estimation around 2005.

When confronted with complaints about "living in nullsec increasingly not worth it" 6-7 years ago, CCP, still thinking that nullsec in the old vision of intrepid roaming resource harvesters, despite the 'frontier' having long been carved out, colonized, occupied and often feudalized, figured the fix for this was adding new forms of resource extraction in the form of T2 minerals and moons. This turned out to be a more reliable system then the high-end mineral incentive for nullsec because there is simply no way of increasing the yield of a moon harvester or creating additional moons. With the previous moongoo distribution system, it was hardly perfect (with Delve and Querious being notoriously imbalanced) but there was enough R64-grade moons to the point where holding any 0.0 space had definite benefits if only for some moons.

The problem of course with moongoo is that the income from moongoo for number of reasons isn't distributed to individual nullsec members, so for a lot of nullsec players, the income that could be derived from 0.0 was still decreasing. While this was happening in 0.0 unaddressed, highsec was undergoing a series of buffs including increased CONCORD safety, static ice belts, ubiquitous L4 agents and increased replenishment of low-end belts that all made highsec living much more lucrative. Without going into whether those buffs were good or bad, they definitely influenced people's decision in a cost/balance analysis of where they'd choose to derive their income.

Soon nullsec CSM rep Zastrow was elected to CSM 3 (2007) in order to emphasize the 'not worth living in' problem, the CSM and CCP were all convinced that the solution, once again, laid in introducing new ways of extracting resources. They put a Legendary Bad Idea Master known as "Seleene" in charge of this and not only did he implement this non-solution in an incompetent fashion, he also reengineered it so that sovereignty was contested in a way that could only be effectively fought with overpowered supercapitals that required oodles of ISK and SP to pilot (coincidentally, Seleene has lots of SP and ISK and personally believes those qualities should come with privileges over other players who haven't been playing since beta), that as a bonus also crashed the server whenever an average sized 0.0 fight happened.

So now that nullsec gameplay was unprofitable, unfun (because it centered around supercarrier 'flying coffins' that most players couldn't own) and now actually unfunctional, this was capped by making a regional R32 (Technetium) the main T2 bottleneck instead of more evenly distributed moons.

CCP looked at this and decided their work was complete, and would not iterate on nullsec for the next 2 1/2 years after threats of mass unsubs, instead focusing on developing WoW-style raids and Space Barbie.

and trying to be louder doesn't negate the fact that if thing's get harder for hi sec then it gets that much harder for null, that's why I want null to get the easy button super roids and everything this way prices will fall to an all time low because supply will go thru the roof.

Make resources finite and the problems are solved.

I save around 400 mil a month by building in empire npc stations. The alliance as a whole is saving hundreds of billions by not building all of our ships and mods in towers in nullsec. It simply makes no sence to spend so much more isk on our supplies when we can get them cheaper from highsec.

Really? You make all your T2 modules in stations?
Tell me more about the mechanics of that, given that when I ran a personal large POS I had 3 Equipment assembly arrays going and Component Assembly Arrays. I would have the equipment arrays going full bore, plus usually 1 component array.
That is 28 slots full bore. Now, given the 25% mfg bonus, that works out to the equivalent of about 37 mfg slots I had at my single POS.

The system I was in had 3 stations, 50 slots at each station.
It also had 28 moons. Some time ago, I did a survey one night when I was bored. EVERY moon had a POS up, with about 80% turned on.
If we low ball each online POS at 25 mfg slots, that works out to 28 * 25 *.8 = 560 mfg slots at POS's, compared to the 150 slots at stations. And we all know that 28 moons in a system is far below average.

You want to make BS's, and BC's, sure, you crank up a long run at a station. You want to make anything else, you do it a POS, where you control the means of production.

So please stop with your ridiculous statements.

Nope....

Have been drinking too much,

Believe the Goonz Foolz.

I did sometimes mine my own ice, then refine it and haul it to my POS.
But guess what: that is a COST. Whether I buy the fuel, or forgo selling the fuel to use it myself, that is a cost.

When you say that because I mine something, and use it for my own production, it has zero cost attached to it, you will be laughed out of any conversation.

And you talk about credibility...giggle.

If you can't make more than me as a high sec industrialist, you are simply bad at the game.

You can sell far more of any given item in a single day than I can, and at pretty much the same profit margin.

I'd say do the math, but if you can't figure out how to make more isk as a builder in high sec, you obviously can't add.

Simple fix to hisec industry stuff.

Turn 20 slots into 10, award all current items in queue completed to owners (It is a fair thing).
Thus the hisec matter is solved as now its make a POS or go expand out over the slots.

Time takes is 1 dt.
Well maybe more depending on the awarding of items.

Also there was a thread already posted of the moons.
Why?
Because time travel

Nope....

Have been drinking too much,

Believe the Goonz Foolz.

Dinsdale's operation could work if he's really dealing in that much volume and has products with a good margin.


But I think he is way over estimating POS manufacturing in highsec. I've scouted at least a dozen highsec systems for available moons (ended up going to lowsec to find one). Many were offline, and if I had to throw out a number, about a third. And the vast majority only had labs.

Really? You make all your T2 modules in stations?
Tell me more about the mechanics of that, given that when I ran a personal large POS I had 3 Equipment assembly arrays going and Component Assembly Arrays. I would have the equipment arrays going full bore, plus usually 1 component array.
That is 28 slots full bore. Now, given the 25% mfg bonus, that works out to the equivalent of about 37 mfg slots I had at my single POS.

The system I was in had 3 stations, 50 slots at each station.
It also had 28 moons. Some time ago, I did a survey one night when I was bored. EVERY moon had a POS up, with about 80% turned on.
If we low ball each online POS at 25 mfg slots, that works out to 28 * 25 *.8 = 560 mfg slots at POS's, compared to the 150 slots at stations. And we all know that 28 moons in a system is far below average.

You want to make BS's, and BC's, sure, you crank up a long run at a station. You want to make anything else, you do it a POS, where you control the means of production.

So please stop with your ridiculous statements.

so the next question is:

large alliances have complete control of the tech in game. This is a fact.

Without resorting to 'the minerals i mine are free' there is a significant profit from tech - even taking into consideration labour and running costs. Its a very, very large mostly passive income.

It is a major building block of T2 production. In fact it is THE major building block of T2 production.

so as I see it this poses a couple of further questions:

1. if the 'average' members of large alliances had equal shares of the profits from tech would that negate the loss of operating in null sec - assuming that you DID have enough slots?

2. While the profits from the major T2 component are going into the alliance pocket to cover Titans etc is there any reason to change the current situation at all?

I have seen your arguments as to why the current situation is bad but tbh your leaders are large contributors to this situation. You are kind of sayinng 'it costs too much to operate in null' as one of your arguments whilst at the same time your organisation as a whole is sitting on the biggest ISK source in the entire universe. It doesnt add up.

It would make more sense to me that passive income like this should go into the pockets of the whole alliance to help make it worthwhile operating in null and then tax from your feudal system should cover the Titans, ship replacements etc.

So whilst you can argue that high sec industry is tied into null sec production it is equally plain to see that any change to high sec in that area should be balanced with both null sec production changes AND null sec moon mining changes.

so the next question is:

large alliances have complete control of the tech in game. This is a fact.

Without resorting to 'the minerals i mine are free' there is a significant profit from tech - even taking into consideration labour and running costs. Its a very, very large mostly passive income.

It is a major building block of T2 production. In fact it is THE major building block of T2 production.

so as I see it this poses a couple of further questions:

1. if the 'average' members of large alliances had equal shares of the profits from tech would that negate the loss of operating in null sec - assuming that you DID have enough slots...?

I have seen your arguments as to why the current situation is bad but tbh your leaders are large contributors to this situation. You are kind of sayinng 'it costs too much to operate in null' as one of your arguments whilst at the same time your organisation as a whole is sitting on the biggest ISK source in the entire universe. It doesnt add up.

There's also the issue that sov 0.0 simply doesn't have the capacity. We can't even supply all the ammo we need from our own stations because they have so few lines.

So it's a two part issue:

(1) Producing in sov 0.0 is horribly uneconomic because of the huge subsidies that producing in hi-sec gets. (Free stations, no sov bills, etc etc, you get the drift)

(2) Sov 0.0 physically can't produce enough to support itself because manufacturing stations have so few lines and there's a cap of 1 station per system.

So to make producing in 0.0 viable, 0.0 outposts first have to be hugely buffed so that they can at least potentially be upgraded to be as good as a big multi-station hi-sec system like Nonni or Sobaseki. Then producers in hi-sec will have to start paying a realistic price for the facilities they enjoy.

so the next question is:

large alliances have complete control of the tech in game. This is a fact.

Without resorting to 'the minerals i mine are free' there is a significant profit from tech - even taking into consideration labour and running costs. Its a very, very large mostly passive income.

It is a major building block of T2 production. In fact it is THE major building block of T2 production.

so as I see it this poses a couple of further questions:

1. if the 'average' members of large alliances had equal shares of the profits from tech would that negate the loss of operating in null sec - assuming that you DID have enough slots?

2. While the profits from the major T2 component are going into the alliance pocket to cover Titans etc is there any reason to change the current situation at all?

I have seen your arguments as to why the current situation is bad but tbh your leaders are large contributors to this situation. You are kind of sayinng 'it costs too much to operate in null' as one of your arguments whilst at the same time your organisation as a whole is sitting on the biggest ISK source in the entire universe. It doesnt add up.

It would make more sense to me that passive income like this should go into the pockets of the whole alliance to help make it worthwhile operating in null and then tax from your feudal system should cover the Titans, ship replacements etc.

So whilst you can argue that high sec industry is tied into null sec production it is equally plain to see that any change to high sec in that area should be balanced with both null sec production changes AND null sec moon mining changes.

ah good VV.

I was just considering trying to track you down to ask an opinion about this and here you are

without derailing the thread does anyone have a figure that is close to exact concerning what each tech moon is worth per cycle after running costs?

edit: lol answered cheers!

VV: The points made above concerning the industry aspect of null are on the money for me, im glad you made them.

2nd edit: so if you had to mine tech like you have to mine rocks what would the projected result be?

2nd edit: so if you had to mine tech like you have to mine rocks what would the projected result be?