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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1296
   |
Posted - 2013.03.26 12:24:00 -
[421] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Sebastion Heorod wrote:Who remembers 10 Learning Skills
I remember 10 Learning Skills
I remember having to train up all 5 attributes
I remember having to train up to the current starting attributes
I remember partially training up to millions of skill points
I remember training for 1.5 months
I remember training just so my character would train as fast as a current starting character
The answer op is nothing
It has already been addressed
It was addressed with the Incursion patch
This happened at the beginning of 2011
Your main problem is that you don't understand the game Yep this, I remember also having to train for over a month just to get the SP speed training you get from day one.
upside was we did get to modify where our points were (Caldari Achura research alt, anyone?  )
But yes, training right now is in a very good place.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Malcanis for CSM8 |
Princess Saskia
Hyperfleet Industries
xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
1797
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Posted - 2013.03.26 12:28:00 -
[422] - Quote
you invited 4 friends too the game that all paid their sub you have 2 billion isk in your account, buy a higher SP character and go have fun!
Hyperfleet Industries is selectivly recruiting. Enquire today.
Killboard
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Frank Millar
128
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Posted - 2013.03.26 13:55:00 -
[423] - Quote
Sebastion Heorod wrote:Who remembers 10 Learning Skills
I remember 10 Learning Skills
I remember having to train up all 5 attributes
I remember having to train up to the current starting attributes
I remember partially training up to millions of skill points
I remember training for 1.5 months
I remember training just so my character would train as fast as a current starting character
I was there.
Eve is real. |
Prekaz
The Gentlemen's Corporation
62
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Posted - 2013.03.26 19:29:00 -
[424] - Quote
I, for one, am looking forward to watching the new players of tomorrow slog their way through getting four racial BCs to 5.  |
Baggo Hammers
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.03.26 19:56:00 -
[425] - Quote
Prekaz wrote:I, for one, am looking forward to watching the new players of tomorrow slog their way through getting four racial BCs to 5.
Why would they? Most will pick a racial and stick to it. Those playing now have the chance to get all for minimum time due to the changes being made.
Realistically and practically, who needs to fly all race's BCs?
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
131
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Posted - 2013.03.26 20:23:00 -
[426] - Quote
Eve is a game about humility and humility is finding your role. You have to specialize. You can't do everything at once. You can do one thing very well within several months of training and until then everyone has their purpose. Don't be so entitled. |
Kamden Line
Serenity Prime
Kraken.
144
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Posted - 2013.03.27 02:06:00 -
[427] - Quote
I remember getting up at 3 in the morning one time to train a skill. You young'ins have no idea how good you have it.
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Signal11th
The Retirement Club
949
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Posted - 2013.03.27 09:22:00 -
[428] - Quote
Prekaz wrote:I, for one, am looking forward to watching the new players of tomorrow slog their way through getting four racial BCs to 5.
Yep a new breed of moaners complaining how us old players have it sooo easy....
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
8318
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Posted - 2013.03.27 10:21:00 -
[429] - Quote
Prekaz wrote:I, for one, am looking forward to watching the new players of tomorrow slog their way through getting four racial BCs to 5.
This is one thing I don't like at all about the skill change.
Ytterbium should have reduced racial Cruiser to rank 4 and racial Battlecruiser to rank 5 with the battlecruiser split IMO
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8: Read about my platform here
Please endorse my candidacy here |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1302
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Posted - 2013.03.27 11:23:00 -
[430] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Prekaz wrote:I, for one, am looking forward to watching the new players of tomorrow slog their way through getting four racial BCs to 5. This is one thing I don't like at all about the skill change. Ytterbium should have reduced racial Cruiser to rank 4 and racial Battlecruiser to rank 5 with the battlecruiser split IMO
yeah, that'd help out in the long run ... though keeping them "hard" helps force specialization.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Malcanis for CSM8 |
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Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2013.03.27 13:22:00 -
[431] - Quote
To the Op - answers to each part of your post:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:Hi,
So I have come to like more "mature" MMOS and eve struck me as one of the best.
I started playing 2 months ago and just lost all the friends I brought into eve.
Eve is certainly one of the best & unfortunate you lost your friends but that's part and parcel of life.. Maybe the game just didn't suit their playstyle?
Hefty TheFirst wrote:This game is simply way too punishing for new players. Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.
Then you have some of the basics and can still not do anything special.
My first month of eve was great... But it was all just theoretical fun. All I did was plan stuff and study about the game and it's mechanics. So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away. I was going to quit as well until I heard of the character bazaar. So I dropped a huge load of $ to buy a pilot that could actually play the game.
- What are you training that takes 1.5 years??
- Some of the basics and can't do anything??? What are you trying to do?
- Eve is like a game of chess - it takes alot of time, patience, tactics & well thought out plans. Some people have it, some don't.
EVE is not a "GO, GO, GO" game where everything has to be rushed through. Once the player understands that, they normally do just fine.
It's the same with most games, some prefer certain games to other. You can't please everyone.
And it was your choice to use the character bazaar, no-one elses. SP doesn't mean everything, Gaming Experience counts for alot more, so even with your new shiny character, you're gonna get r*ped as you haven't taken the time to learn how each mod works, piloting each ship, understanding the drawbacks of certain fits, ect, ect (could go on for ages with the list).
Hefty TheFirst wrote:I am sure the long SP training ques are CCP's way of "milking" $ out of us.
Which proves a point to me. Every one that I have spoken to that plays eve has at least 1-4 alts.
So that in itself proves how low the game population actually is.
Now this isn't a troll or whining thread.
If CCP truly wanted to make more $ something needs to be done about SP.
The longer the game progresses the more useless new players become.
Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?
- You're trying to compare two completely different games. WoW has a level cap & is defined by end game. EVE is not. (look up "Sandbox")
- And again with the SP comment (I'm starting to think you don't like the SP side of this game)
- Now unique players in the game? CCP states over 500k subscribers. Unique subscribers? Probably more in the 10-25k region, may be pushing 30k-40k on a good month so that point I partly agree with you on.
Hefty TheFirst wrote:So this is as constructive as a new player can get.
I am not mad in any way. I actually want to help eve grow, that's the whole reason of this thread.
I want to know if anything is being done about the huge SP brick wall.
From what I am seeing the summer change is making it even harder for new players.
Battle cruisers were a huge win for new players as it didn't take too long to fly them and now it's even taking that small win away from new players.
- And another SP comment (noticing a pattern here)
- BC's are still a huge win for new players (suggest you read up about the upcoming skill changes and how they affect you)
Hefty TheFirst wrote:So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?
I truly want to see this game grow so help me talk to the right people.
If I could talk to the right people I could really guarantee new players sticking around instead of getting discouraged and quitting.
Regards: Hefty
- What huge problems? Please be more specific
- There are two forum catagories where you can post concerns (Assembly Hall) or ideas (Features and idea discussions)
- Greatness you ask? That needs to be earnt in this game - SO time and patience are your friend
- Talk to the right people? You are (sort of). The player base has a big influence on the way this game evolves (good or bad)
- Sorry, but the last comment of yours.. heard it all before. Players will only stick around if they enjoy the type of game they are playing. Plain and Simple.
Reading your whole post though, it seems you have a really big issue with SP!! You seem to want to have it all whilst putting in the least amount of time and effort to get that result & then by trying to justify that lots of friends have left the game!
Sorry, but that's not Eve. Yes, there are a few shortcuts to be had but "EXPERIENCE" is the big thing in this game, not "SP". |
Baggo Hammers
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.03.27 21:47:00 -
[432] - Quote
OP is long gone. Thread was hijacked by sensitive elf person then they left as well. Apparently every visit to skills forum requires posting in this thread. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
103
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Posted - 2013.03.28 02:48:00 -
[433] - Quote
OP has made a hasty retreat back to WoW... The day is saved! |
Hoinus
Duty Free Exchange
0
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Posted - 2013.03.28 07:42:00 -
[434] - Quote
This is coming from someone who's account didn't see action for over 1000 days. There really isn't that many new skills. There are only that many skills that will affect the specific things you want to do. CCP already made it easier for people by removing all the learning skills and I had the advance ones to mostly 5. |
Drundory
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 14:37:00 -
[435] - Quote
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:Eve is a game about humility and humility is finding your role.
This. Because it is in human nature to grab and plan big when in it is not really possible some players think that starting small is not good. They just have to comprehend and accept that small is not bad. In EvE we have seen many many times that small is better.
When new players learn this they will be cool and happy. My first advice would be go small go effective ... then when you master small stuff move on. But as i said about human nature ... we do not accept easily to start small.
Because we are humans.
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Joceline
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.03.28 21:29:00 -
[436] - Quote
Eve actually provides ways to skip a lot of the years of SP learning through the character bazaar. While it takes some effort, you CAN do things like trading with low SP characters and make enough ISK to buy a good pvp pilot. And if you are ambitious enough to do that, you shouldn't have much problem learning to pvp. Or if you are rich you can just buy plex and get a character.
The amount of time it takes to learn to fly something well is definitely less then the amount of time it takes to train the SP. Maybe not for the first 10mil or so, but definitely after that. At first this seems harsh, until you realize that there are ways like I pointed out above to get ahead.
That's one of the things I love about this game. It's not easy, but even for new players there are ways to put yourself at the top of whatever you want to do in a rather short time period.
One of my favorite examples is Brave Newbies Inc. A guy that is new to the game comes in and within a short time period has one of the largest corps in eve. Regardless of what you think of the corp, he is now well known and probably has contacts with some of the largest alliances in the game. He can pretty much write his own ticket now wherever he goes in eve.
If you treat this game like any other game, and don't take the time to understand how different a real sandbox game actually is, you will probably end up leaving the game after a rather short time period. And sometimes it takes people several tries before it clicks. I tried eve no less then 3-4 times over a 5 year period before it stuck. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.29 10:21:00 -
[437] - Quote
IIshira wrote:OP has made a hasty retreat back to WoW... The day is saved!
Some of us came from WoW to play EvE, considering they have played games even more grueling games (MuDs or some old Asian grinders anyone?). So generalizations don't fit.
The OP has mentioned some things that are in fact a pain, that even the dinosaur MuDs have changed over the years (as EvE has, like removing the learning skills...remember?).
As EvE gets to the point that it's playerbase either ages more or more players come to the game there will be changes, as the time sinks of old are no longer needed (take for example corpse runs and equipment binds...they went the way of the Dodo, as it's timesink purpose no longer was needed).
EvE will always be a skills based game (nice), but there is a problem keeping players beyond two months, when the skills no longer can be leveled in a day, and it becomes 19+ days per skill. Just saying "get used to it" doesn't do much to attract and keep newer players (who learn they'll never catch up with the vets, a royal turnoff right at the gate). Somehow and somewhere some interesting mechanic would help keep those long waits bearable (i.e., perhaps some points that can be used to purchase something, so the player can see it's worthwhile to wait 19+ days for one skill to level).
The skill time doesn't need to change in itself, just some tangible reward that's worth the wait....5% off a setback is pretty difficult to wait on even for older grinder vets (and seeing the toons for sale too many just go the level 4 route [miner toons are true with this, unless they're a refiner...level 4 on ore processing right down the line. Why level when a 5% implant takes care that?).
So even in EvE folks take shortcuts to skill up, as it's pretty difficult to sit for 6 months in a dock (even veteran character sellers are interested in making some isk in their lifetime).  |
Neer Nolani
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.29 12:10:00 -
[438] - Quote
>Focus less on SP
>Get a ship
>Enjoy the game
>Before you know it, you haz moar SP!1!! :3 |
Govind
Parity Labs
13
|
Posted - 2013.03.29 16:33:00 -
[439] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:The skill time doesn't need to change in itself, just some tangible reward that's worth the wait....5% off a setback is pretty difficult to wait on
The problem there sounds more like OCD. It's a diminishing return for which each player must make a cost-benefit analysis of if it is worth training. You don't NEED to train all of your skills to 5 even for your primary role. If as you said the reward of training something to 5 seems like it may not be worth it then DON'T, save it for when you feel you have nothing better to train.
The only changes I see as benefiting the EvE training system is simply more education for new players about prioritizing their skill training plans. If, as you mentioned, a two month player is training a lot of 19+ day skills they are not prioritizing well and are only holding themselves back. |
Demica Diaz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2013.03.29 19:16:00 -
[440] - Quote
CCP Needs to make Skill Bazaar where people can buy and sell skills.
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2013.03.30 01:23:00 -
[441] - Quote
Govind wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:The skill time doesn't need to change in itself, just some tangible reward that's worth the wait....5% off a setback is pretty difficult to wait on The problem there sounds more like OCD. It's a diminishing return for which each player must make a cost-benefit analysis of if it is worth training. You don't NEED to train all of your skills to 5 even for your primary role. If as you said the reward of training something to 5 seems like it may not be worth it then DON'T, save it for when you feel you have nothing better to train. The only changes I see as benefiting the EvE training system is simply more education for new players about prioritizing their skill training plans. If, as you mentioned, a two month player is training a lot of 19+ day skills they are not prioritizing well and are only holding themselves back.
You do need to have the skills to level 5 or pay for it with a steady stream of losses.
A skills based game is about more skills = being more powerful. A level 1 skilled player is going to be blown out of the water by a level 5 skilled player.
The reward is the skills.
I don't want the length of the skill grind to change (when WoW changed Blacksmithing to easy leveling @ 90 that's when I quit. Tired of making that easy and having little to show for hard work [or in EvE the wait]). But this new generation of gamer isn't going to wait, they have a steady diet of 8hr games, and staying inflexible isn't helping attract *and retain* more players.
"5mil SP required!"
"10mil SP required!"
Says, yeah, SP does matter.
Just need a way for players to see the benefits of the wait, not be told either sink or swim (why would they want to sink when 10001 other games cater to them, anyway?). When the market changes, games have to change with it, not bury their heads in the sand with meme defenses.
Do you want ISBox to be the way to play EvE? Or having 50,000 more real humans playing? I prefer the latter and hope they'll stay. |
Leetha Layne
86
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Posted - 2013.03.30 01:34:00 -
[442] - Quote
Bigger Swords. |
Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
132
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Posted - 2013.03.30 05:02:00 -
[443] - Quote
Getting from level 1 to 4 takes less time than it does from 4 to 5....you'll be alright. |
GreenSeed
258
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Posted - 2013.03.30 13:11:00 -
[444] - Quote
SP is fine, l2play. |
Korvus Falek
Depraved Corruption
60
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Posted - 2013.03.31 01:00:00 -
[445] - Quote
Hefty TheFirst wrote:It is a great aspect you are right there.
But it has been grocely expanded.
Out of 5 people in my experience 4 quit.
That's a really bad number. I love this game but few people are going to drop big $ to buy a pilot in the bazaar.
This has to be the biggest issue in the game right now.
If dealt with the game could MASSIVELY expand... Once more if you misread MASSIVELY expand.
EvE is not for everyone. Im happy with a 20% retention rate if it means getting quality over quanity in my fellow players.
Edit:
To clarify more; SP does matter, but not to the extent that some people are making it out to be. The required sp levels (5mSP, 10mSP ect) are the same as level requirements in other MMOs (level 40, 50, 60, ect). Also, Im not going to link it, but CCP has mentioned once or twice that training to level 5 for a skill should be specilization in that skill rather than just training to 5 to have it. Level 3 is average, level 4 skills are above average and 5 skills are specilist level skills.
With this in mind, you dont NEED every skill to level 5, not even close. You can be a competent pilot with only a few hours of training skillpoints. What matters most, IMO, is you willingness to seek out knowledge of the game, in game and out. Gaining this knowledge by scouring forums, fitting tools, and youtube videos to see what people are doing right and wrong and adapting those things to your own playstyle.
Adaptation is extremely important, and by training many skills to level 3 or 4 will leave you much better able to adapt than training only a few skills to 5 in the same amount of time. Again, IMO, EvE is all about adaptation. |
Leetha Layne
88
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 01:37:00 -
[446] - Quote
Just reading this thread, I've gotten to level 5 in Gunnery. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
Aeterna Anima
55
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 11:53:00 -
[447] - Quote
Korvus Falek wrote:Hefty TheFirst wrote:It is a great aspect you are right there.
But it has been grocely expanded.
Out of 5 people in my experience 4 quit.
That's a really bad number. I love this game but few people are going to drop big $ to buy a pilot in the bazaar.
This has to be the biggest issue in the game right now.
If dealt with the game could MASSIVELY expand... Once more if you misread MASSIVELY expand.
EvE is not for everyone. Im happy with a 20% retention rate if it means getting quality over quanity in my fellow players.
Well, it doesn't, unless you count patience as the predominant quality among players.
The success of (really ridiculous) scammers alone shows a lot about the playerbase...
Quote:
To clarify more; SP does matter, but not to the extent that some people are making it out to be. The required sp levels (5mSP, 10mSP ect) are the same as level requirements in other MMOs (level 40, 50, 60, ect).
I agree to some extend. And where would WoW be, if you needed 1 month for lvl 10, 3 months for lvl 20...and 2 years for lvl 90? They would have retained 90% of their first year subsribers (at a lower scale than they were then, because less would have been willing to suffer that), simply because people would hesitate to give up their 'investment' or the advantage they have over everyone newer - at the cost of negligible growth. Hint: The majority of WoW's growth came with the 2nd and 3rd expansion...
Quote:
Also, Im not going to link it, but CCP has mentioned once or twice that training to level 5 for a skill should be specilization in that skill rather than just training to 5 to have it. Level 3 is average, level 4 skills are above average and 5 skills are specilist level skills.
That's a totally empty statement if you have a playerbase where a sizeable number of players is old enough that they have simply trained skills to 5, because they had everything else trained already - not because they wanted to 'specialize' in that activity.
To put things in perspective: With a fixed max amount of SP (achievable in a realistic timeframe), calling 5 specialist skills would indeed make sense, since you would have to give up something else for that specialization. (Comparable to the old WoW talent trees, where you had to optimize to some extend - especially if you went somewhat exotic)
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Korvus Falek
Depraved Corruption
60
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 15:24:00 -
[448] - Quote
Your comparing apples to oranges. In WoW, you gain levels by the amount of time you put in grinding XP. In EvE, you gain SP as long as you have a skill in the queue. In WoW, when you die, you dont lose anything other than a few seconds. In EvE, when you die, there are consequences. WoW has also been in decline for a few years, while EvE has had continued growth every single year (with the exception of Incarna debacle). I dont hear Blizzard or WoW devs talking about their game "in the coming DECADE", like CCP has laid plans for EvE in such a way. CCP is planning for even more growth over the next 10 years, while WoW is only planning for the next year of developement and in five years, going into maintence mode the same way EQ1 did.
People need to stop looking only at the small % of boosts a level 5 skill gives over a level 4 skill. On paper, it might seem like alot, but in actual practice, its entirely more likely that the person with more level 3 and 4 skills spread out will win over the person who train thed same amount of time to get a few skills to 5. Thats the trade off that everyone refuses to see. The extra training time IS specialization when you can train more general skills in the same time as that one skill training to 5.
I dont want a fixed max amount of SP. I want to have an ungainable amount of SP so it forces me to make choices in what to train with consequences for training or not training certain things. Having the ability to get everything and do everything at maxed out skills with one character is rediculous and always has been to me. Make alts if you want to do it all. Its a choice with a consequence.
Also, I hate your WoW comparisons because I dont want a WoW clone in space, let alone ANY game that even tries to copy WoW at all. Every game that has done so has failed in trying to capture lightning in a bottle again. If anything, developers need to copy EvE instead of catering to every ADHD numbnuts idiot calling themselves a gamer. |
ScoRpS
0utbreak
Outbreak.
63
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Posted - 2013.03.31 17:24:00 -
[449] - Quote
From a PVP point of view.
I would advise a new player that specialising earlier is actually the best way.
I can imagine that new players are overwhelmed at the sheer diversity in Eve and could be forgiven for wanting to try a bit of everything. Then they will end up in a state of mediocrity from where they don't really shine for quite some time. Not a good experience.
I guess deciding earlier on what they want to do leads to a more fulfilling experience. This is largely because specialisation is capped much lower. For example you can, with 15-20 mil well planned sp, take on much higher sp'd players with a decent chance of success. If of course they have the right ship and fit for the job.
- Decide on which ship and role takes your fancy and why.
- Learn tactics and fits and more importantly viable target types. This is not intuitive and one will suffer losses learning.
- Work out a skill plan to accommodate it.
- Become proficient in its use and repeat for another ship.
Knowing you have maxed a certain ship type is gratifying, boosts confidence and does not take as long as you may think. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
Aeterna Anima
55
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 18:11:00 -
[450] - Quote
ScoRpS wrote:From a PVP point of view. I would advise a new player that specialising earlier is actually the best way. I can imagine that new players are overwhelmed at the sheer diversity in Eve and could be forgiven for wanting to try a bit of everything. Then they will end up in a state of mediocrity from where they don't really shine for quite some time. Not a good experience. I guess deciding earlier on what they want to do leads to a more fulfilling experience. This is largely because specialisation is capped much lower. For example you can, with 15-20 mil well planned sp, take on much higher sp'd players with a decent chance of success. If of course they have the right ship and fit for the job.
- Decide on which ship and role takes your fancy and why.
- Learn tactics and fits and more importantly viable target types. This is not intuitive and one will suffer losses learning.
- Work out a skill plan to accommodate it.
- Become proficient in its use and repeat for another ship.
Knowing you have maxed a certain ship type is gratifying, boosts confidence and does not take as long as you may think.
Fine in theory, but it conflicts heavily with the attribute mapping concept of EVE.
I.e. it's a sound plan after covering ALL the I/M based basic skills OR at the tradeoff of having a lot worse growth long term
I'm biting the bullet with my FW char, where i'm applying that concept, just so I could hop straight in, but i'm constantly aware of and annoyed at the less than optimal SP gain. |
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