Total Bull, skillpoints mean nothing. Knowledge and the friends you make is how to succeed in EVE.

Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.

Really?

Lets analyze what you just said.

Friends mean everything.
All of mine quit.

Skill points mean nothing.
The reason why my friends quit.

Knowledge means everything.

I have knowledge of things I want to do.
How far away am I to do them? 1-2 years away.
Wait that long? Never...

Please this is a "mature" discussion.
Troll posts like that make you look really stupid.

I'm willing to bet your friends quit because the combat system is lacking. In half a year you can be flying dessies and T2 frigs highly effectively, or have rushed T1 battlecruisers and flying them at rank V with appropriate weapons skills. Or have rushed BSs and flying them well enough to be doing lv 4 missions solo.

I will repeat...
I only have three real questions and you answered non of them.

Also face it dessies are nothing but cute. T2 frigs are for pvp which cost isk new players probably won't have.

The first thing I'd have to ask is simply...

What goals are you looking at which require 1-2 years of training?

In terms of straightforward goals the only ones I can think of in that range would be the high-end of capital ships - I might suggest these to be end-game content (though end-game is a little bit of a flexible term). You don't want the end-game content immediately, it would be boring.

The journey is important, quiting because you can't get a Titan on day 2 misses the point of that.

SP is a visible measure of what you're capable of, of course, but it's a deceptive one. A pilot with half a million of the right SP and the knowledge and resources to leverage it properly is far better off than one with 100 million of the wrong SP, the wrong ship, the wrong situation...

And there is no lower limit on the number of SP it takes to have fun - I know several pilots who were pirating lowsec, ratting null or engaging in fleet battles with less than a million SPs, in some cases created specifically to minimise their clone costs...

I am somewhat impressed that you were able to answer some of the questions.

1-2 years of training would put you into a capital ship yes. Core skills? NO.

Also this post is for NEW PLAYERS AND WHY MOST OF THEM QUIT SO EARLY.

You look incredibly stupid right now.
I don't even really want to post this reply but you asked for it.

You know the secret to a new player making isk hand over fist? Double wrap a unit of trit, autopilot with it around EVE in a free frigate looking like you're an idiot with a PLEX, then sell the resulting killrights when you get popped for 5 to 10M. Takes like 15 minutes for someone to bite the bait.

To get the core skills to an OK-ish level takes about 1.5 years.
That's like STANDARD level certs.

Hey ! How about you try to not sound like a child when you reply ? kk thx.

To take all 6 of the core certs to standard takes a brand new character (with no skill remaps or implants) less than 2 months (54 days, 5 hours to be precise).

What goal do you have that requires 1-2 years to get started on?

I've been playing roughly 10 months (you can check my employment history if you want), I can fly battlecruisers, cruisers, destroyers and T2 frigates, I can go on lowsec roams, I can do highsec and lowsec exploration if I want, I can make just about anything except T3 cruisers and supercapitals and I have a lot of fun doing all of those things. In a year I'll be better at all of them for sure and probably be doing other things too, but I can do them all now and I've been doing most of them for the last 6 months.

The problem, IMHO isn't needing 2 or more years of skills, it's people who think they need 2 of more years worth of skills to have fun.

Oh look someone mad on the internet.

Am I speaking the wrong language?
This is a serious discussion sidetracked by trolls.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

Will Hefty prevail in finding the answers on the broken internet!?

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

You didn't answer any of the questions but getting core skills to "standard" core skills as in all the skills needed to fly a ship not core on the cert tab takes longer than 2 years.

Yes you can fly all of those and you are approaching the year mark. The worst is behind you.

I have to have 50 million skill points to undock

That seems risky, better wait to up that Acceleration Control skill. It can make the difference.

Am I speaking the wrong language?

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

I have come to like more "mature" MMOS and eve struck me as one of the best.

No, it isn't. It never was. You never made a case and you're just trying to yell louder rather than have an honest conversation based in reality.



What problem? You've described a situation based on personal anecdote and made-up statistics and decided you have a universal, problematic situation. Make a better case for there being a problem and maybe someone will help you figure it out.

Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

Not yourself, which is what this thread has been so far. Try engaging with your critics rather than yelling over their heads.



By, I don't know, playing it? Same as we all did.

When I started six years ago I thought I'd never catch up and be able to fly T2 ships like all those nasty pirates out to get me in low sec. But it turns out, there are only five levels of each skill and once you have them, you're maxed out. And I caught up. And so can anyone else.



Maybe it's not the internet that's broken?

Go over to twitch.tv There are people who hand out 21 day trials. Very few of the people sub past the second month.

Like Zhilia has explained i am not sure that this is a problem in the first place. You can have fun after a couple of weeks and be effective in fleet, lire really useful, after roughly one month.




There is a Features&Ideas discussion on this forum, if you have a specific suggestion in mind go ahead and post there. Apart from that i am not really sure what you are expecting... you are not a game designer, you don't have access to the same data CCP has so you are, like me, totally incompetent to even say that this is "a huge problem".



I think the best course of action for a new player is to join a group of player that will take him on fleets and teach him how to play the game. Eve university is probably a great corporation, several alliances in nullsec are also willing to take newbies and teach them.

I am not a game designer?
Hehehe that's exactly what I am.
If you knew who I really was you'd actually help.

I am not a game designer?
Hehehe that's exactly what I am.
If you knew who I really was you'd actually help.

But you and your kids already help me <3

What ship? All the skills needed and recommended to fly a frigate to V will not take 2 years. All the skills to fly every single ship in the game, yeah that'll take a while. That's a long term goal that you can work on in time, it's not something you need to do to play.

Let's see...
Caldari frigate Merlin, all required skills and recommended certificates total at under 5 days.
Minmatar destroyer Thrasher, all required skills and recommended certificates total at just over 6 days
Gallente cruiser Thorax all required skills and recommended certificates total at a little over 10 days
Amarr battlecruiser Prophecy, all required skills and recommended certificates total at 75 days. Getting large, but haven't hit 6 months yet.
Caldari battleship Raven, all required skills and recommended certificates total at about 80 days, though you probably want more skills than that to fly a battleship

Again, what is your goal that you need to wait 1-2 years to *start*? You're avoiding that question.



The worst? Light at the end of the tunnel? What tunnel? I've had fun the whole way through that year.

So I can't fly a battleship perfectly yet, point is, I don't need to, there's nothing that compels me to fly a battleship, nothing where it's 'fly a battleship or log off' (and to be honest I prefer smaller ships at the moment)

What you and probably your friends seem to be missing is that there's no skill requirement for fun. You can play and have fun from the first minute, as long as you don't get stuck in the mentality of 'I have to have 50 million skill points to undock'

No.
Hefty TheFirst]So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
What you're talking about is not a huge problem.


This is the place to talk about it.


By playing the game.

In school, I made a friend that was into gaming, much like myself.
And there was a game that he could literally speak about for hours. EvE Online. He spoke of giant ships, epic battles, modules and heists. He was so enthusiastic and there was just a glow of passion in his eyes whenever he spoke of it.
I had never even heard of this crazy space-game before, so I decided to try it out.

I bought it on my third day of trial.

Within the first month I had decided what I was going to do to fund my playing, and decided a semi-long term goal, that I reached after about 8 months of play and a long term one, that I've still to reach. But oh, the satisfaction of setting a goal, work hard for it, and reach it. It was something I had never felt in a game ever before.
Can't wait for the day that I'm going to reach my second goal (I'm about a fifteen months away)..

It'll be magnificent.



THIS is was maturity is.

WORKING for what you want.
Having PATIENCE and realizing that there are LOADS and LOADS of fun things to do, while you wait for that long-term goal.
The very fact that glorious things take a long time to accomplish means they'll be so much more rewarding!
If CCP were to dumb it down to the level you want it, then those glorious things would mean nothing! It'd not be glorious!

It'd be boring!

It is NOT a huge problem that newbs are newbs when they are new to EvE Online.
If they find something they want to do, and are willing to work for it, there is no problem!
There is only a problem if they find something want to do, but can't be arsed to work for it!
THAT is the problem. NOT the game!
This answers the second and fourth question quoted in this post.

Make a trial account. Forget about the contacts you have made over the long periods of time that you have been playing.
With no help from anyone like a normal new player will be exposed too, go see just how useless you truely are in the first few months to a year of eve..

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Peter_Pacis

This pilot (the one you bought) may be two years old but he has only one year of training, i bought myself a much better pilot for a lot less isk. Also wanting to fly both Tengu and a faction BS with only 20mil SP (Mach requires cross training btw) is really ********.

*Looks at less than year old main character*. Nope, not feeling useless today. Didn't feel useless in the first week I played (and yes, I do remember that, it wasn't that long ago), didn't feel useless in the first month either.
A month old character is far from useless unless the player's convinced they can't do anything without a year of training.

And no, go back and read what I wrote, with all your talk of 'character assassinations', you ignored everything but the last sentence.

You bought a character that probably has been specifically designed to be a perfect battleship and Tengu pilot (full T2 fit most likely) and do nothing else, that's what's done on the character bazaar, train and sell characters with very narrow specialisations, that's not how one would typically train or fly for the first 2 years of their main and 2 years are not required to fly a battleship at a good competency level, nor would it be something where you're sitting useless in station until the training's finished.

Train frigates, fly frigates, they're loads of fun (ask the RvB guys). Maybe train destroyers or maybe skip them for cruisers. Fly cruisers, they can also be loads of fun too. Get a battlecruiser, or maybe go straight for T2 frigates, etc, etc.

character assassination

The second day of my trial account I accidentally found a WH and inside of that WH I found 2 mag sites with no sleepers.
I analyzed the cans and opened them. Went to the second site I found and did the same.
Didn't even know what I just did was virtually impossible.

There is so much wrong in your post. Also please read carefully my posts, i have mentioned that i bought a char on my first post but that doesn't make "all my posts pointless". Again, basic logic.

You have mentioned buying a char, it happens that in the process you displays basic error in your choice. Errors that are linked to understanding what matters in skill training.

It's funny just how broken the internet is.
Here I wanted to discuss how punishing this game is for new players.
Talk to the right person.
All I got is a bunch off butthurt nerds.

This isn't about me or you.
This is about all the new players that feel useless.
If CCP showed you the stats of actual players in EVE, you would see just how few people there is.
Very few people only have one account.
Allot of people I spoke to have an average of 2-5 accounts.
You should speak to miners. They have so many accounts.
My stat of unique players being 30-50% of the population is probably not even off by much.

That means we saw the SP wall and paid $ to bulldoze over it.

You like to use that phrase a lot, don't you?


Not only did you accidentally find a WH, you also found 2 mag sites with no sleepers! On your 2nd day no less!

I'd like to learn more! Please continue.

You can buy SP in form of a toon from bazaar but you cannot buy game knowledge and experience. And you are clear proof of that.

Everyone of us started lost and without SP needed to fly shinies and do cool stuff.

Chill da frakk down, keep playing or GTFO. Why would anybody play the game he hates? That's just like most st00pid thing you can do with your time and money.

Again just character assassination.

As far as a new player goes I think I did very well.
Can you say that you made 170m on your second day of trial?
No help, no guidance from friends?

This game is simply way too punishing for new players. Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.
Then you have some of the basics and can still not do anything special.

My first month of eve was great... But it was all just theoretical fun. All I did was plan stuff and study about the game and it's mechanics.

So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away. I was going to quit as well until I heard of the character bazaar. So I dropped a huge load of $ to buy a pilot that could actually play the game.

Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

Inigo Montoya wants a word with you.

Eve has more subs ALTS than ever.

You weren't playing EVE then, that's a common first mistake.

pve in EVE is horrible

Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

As a matter of fact, concerning pvp, you don't want to have too many skill points. Makes for more expensive clones and the "need" to fly more expensive shi(t)ps.

Maybe the OP is dumb but he raises a couple of good point, one being that a new player cannot do much in the first couple of months. You cannot realistically pvp all day long and as you mentioned most of the large entities that accept day 1 toon are community-based.

So they have to fill their day with pve and pve in EVE is horrible, lvl1 missions are really easy but some lvl2s missions will be tricky/impossible to run with poor skills in a cruiser, even with a good fit. I ended up after my first week wondering what i could do... Yes new players can mine and it's even easier now with the venture but that's a very specific gameplay, i would define it as "boring as f*ck". An active new player, that don't like mindless grinding and wants to play Eve maybe 1-2 hours per day just won't have much to do.

Over time the problem solves itself, players are able to do pvp with being podded in the first few seconds, and to run missions/rats/explore effectively. Myself i just went all-in with trading while learning about the community and the game but then again trading is a very specific type of gameplay.


I am not saying that this is a "huge problem" nor do i want newbies to be effective in high-end ships quickly but i think there is room for content here and CCP should work on that. Ofc you can find a charitable carebear that will let you salvage and loot some wrecks in lvl4s... that's not really fun either and you are left with the impression to clean the dishes. And a game that relies on vets'kindness to provide content to newbies... isn't that a flawed design ?

Needs more expletives.

On topic, Games like WoW have an entry barrier for there end game content, which is "gear", "gear" takes alot of time to gather & is a grind, before players are exposed to the end game content (raids) You don't just join WoW as a noob & do endgame content straight away, you have spend time "leveling" & "gear grinding. Fanatical players will rush & spend countless days grinding fast to acheive "geared". for instance my first WoW character took me 2 months to level, and about 3-4 months to gear. to be ready for end-game. there's fanatics that do it in a week.

You can't do that in EVE, the faster you grind isk/mine/LP by missions or w/e, has no correlation between isk & skillqueue.

And that's the key issue, players come from fast paced games where "grind" means "skill" & expect eve to be the same, well it isn't.

It doesn't feel as if there's enough information presented to new players in the game as to what direction they should go in sometimes.

This is a very valid point.
But the SP wall that I am talking about is really damaging the beauty of eve.
For new players this game is very complex. Most new people spend allot of time studying the game.
When they finally connect the dots and find out what they want to do they see the wall and get discouraged.
Until I bought a character at the bazaar the game had the same effect on me.
So much that I wanted to do but I was a year or two away.
Would be great to give some attention for the new players.
Most of eve's population are vets... They are so far past that wall they can't even imagine how it feels.
Alt pilots prove my point. This is the only game I have come across where it's normal to have 2-5 accounts.
That screams that something is the matter.
CCP makes their $ off those people and loose serious $ to new players that quit.

OP, I'm having more fun in this 1.5m SP character than I have ever had in my PvE mains. In fact, I think of Zaps as my main now since my high SP characters just seem stale in comparison.

One of the most important things you can learn about EVE is that the skill point journey is very enjoyable. Sure, a four year old thinks you need to 'get a bigger ship so I can get the baddies' but I realise that small ship PvP is fantastic:

1. Cheap (let's you learn by lots of mistakes)
2. Very fun
3. Arguably harder than large ship PvP due to the short time frame

Remember that skill points does not equate to skill. I can guarantee that a noob who buys a high SP character will die in lots of expensive explosions.

I can comprehend the issue with the "skillpoint wall" for you.
But that sight only causes the inexperience you still "stuck" in.

Of course it-¦s a "makes me game-quitting"-problem if the goal of your 4 pals and you is to mine togehter in maxed out hulks with maxed out orca-support. EvE is a sandbox, the way is goal. You never realy reach the finish line (and none realy will make 1st place).

My first thought after reading the inital post was "not that one again" (topic).
2nd thought was "Buy a time-machine and go back to 2003 and start paying your sub like some of us did".

On more serious thought the grass in 2003 wasnt more green then EvE is today.
Out of my experience EvE was by a LOT more inconvinient to play then nowadays.
Autopilot? Something you can dream about. Mining barges? Earning isk with mining? A balance between shipclasses (splash damage on torpedos was enough to pop frigs!). Anyone remember the "Bring your own minerals"-deals?
A rifter, throw-away-good of today, was like 1m a hull. My first thorax cost 12m.

Life in eve was hard. So it-¦s today - but it-¦s different. Low skillpoints but you know what to do and how to do it? There are plenty corps out there who accept new players with open arms. You can join a mining corp and participate in large mining gangs, for pvp there are plenty of options (from "clean" RvB-perma-war in highsec over lowsec piracy (or faction warfare) to nullsec entities) and wormhole-corps (there are a few corps out there who run the low-class-holes with drake-gangs).

No matter how many skillpoints you have, there will always be that "why didn-¦t i skill this one"-moments.

Keep your personal fun up.

As you don-¦t answer the question on what exactly you want to train for (1-1.5 years) before you can start to actually playing the game here a last note refering to pvp experience.

You want to fly a deimos in pvp? Buy a thorax, fit it like you would fit your deimos. Now buy the thorax and the modules 10 times. Fit them, use them, lose them. After you lost your 10th ship remember how much fun it was to lose those ships (and actually getting experience for the same price). A good thorax pilot anhilates a bad deimos-pilot every day.

TL;DR: HTFU

As a matter of fact, concerning pvp, you don't want to have too many skill points. Makes for more expensive clones and the "need" to fly more expensive shi(t)ps.

That's absurd. Precisely because it's THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

In WoW and similar games, someone at a lower "lower" level has nothing to do against "max level" characters.

In EvE, a 30 days player can consistently DESTROY a veteran player at EVERYTHING. Be it business success, commanding other players or simply 1vs1 PvP.

In EvE, your success is determined by your numbers, talent and preparation, and MUCH LESS BY TIME SPENT SUBSCRIBED than in ANY other games out there.

I will say it again this post is about new players and the 'SP wall".
Go read one of my earlier replies about roles. Maybe then you will understand what I mean :).

I agree that the SP system is broken!
But I don't recognize what Hefty describes. I have been around for some time now, and every now and then some noob (less then 4 years) comes by and shoots me down .

How is this possible? I mean I most likely have more SP then him, I think it would only be fair if, whenever someone initiate combat a SP check was made. The person with lower SP should get a x% miss chance depending on how big the difference in SP is...

It's only fair to us old timers!

This statement is completely untrue, but it is definitely the case that this perception exists.

That's a marketing problem more than a game mechanics problem, though. They definitely should do more to address the erroneous belief that you need 1.5 years of training to be slightly effective.

I am curious: What is it that you/your friends were interested in doing that simply could not be done without 1.5 years of training? Someone else asked you this on the first page, and you didn't really furnish a response.

This isn't the game for you.

...blather...

Just to be slightly effective it takes about 1.5 years of training... So I brought 4 of my friends in which all payed for 1 month + trial. They loved the first month of eve and into the seconds month they all saw just how truly pathetic they were in terms of SP. Everything they wanted to do was years of training away.

There are two sides to this problem - like people have already hinted at. The first aspect is goal and the second is the journey.

If people see the goal as amassing skill points to get into the big ships without there being anything worth doing in between then yes, that's a huge problem. Some people might even see that there is fun stuff to do before they get the skill points to do the 'big' stuff. The character bazaar is the solution for those people. Yes, it's costly and as such not the 'best' solution. Is there a different and better solution to allow new people quickly get to that point? Maybe, by removing the prerequisite skills so that you could train titan (or whatever) right from the start. Well, they could but it'd just be compromising the 'feel' of a skill system. You know how to fly a titan but not a frigate ... what's wrong with you?

So the answer to this question:
- There is value to taking the time to train ... represented by skill points
- There is stuff you can do for fun while you attain your skill point goals, the character bazaar is an alternative for those that don't want to wait.


Forums, run for CSM. CCP does listen to the community. If you have an alternative solution and support that's the best route to success.



Yes - like I said before. No, you will never get a new character into the skill point heights of the older characters. But the skill point system also levels out. Put my character in an assault frigate against a 10m skill point character and there could be no discernible difference in the number of EFFECTIVE skill points. Sure, I could jump into a t3 cruiser, carrier, or something and have a lot more effective skill points. I'm just saying - once you pick a ship to fly you are leaving a LOT of skill points behind.

The only difference between a new player and an old player are options. You say that it takes too long to acquire some options and you might be absolutely correct. But I say there is also value in having those kinds of options. I've gone through the phase where there isn't anything really the 'need' for anything new to train. This, in my opinion is worse than having long term skill training options.

There is no problem but there is things being done to help new guys like tiericide so t1 ships are nearly as good as t2



CSM



Specialization dont try to do everything. Join a new player friendly corp.


I build characters to sell and aslong as you dont try to do everyting with one character you dont have to train to long. janna pw 123 thats a 6 months tengu i did.


evemon plans download


freighter 32 days
tengu 111 days
cap 6months
manifacture/research 60 days
P.I. 45days

The cap character is the basic you need but the rest are solid. My 3m sp alt karma kills hulks fine kills . My trader alt only has 3m sp and my pve alt that i was using only had 10m sp and i made loads of isk running ded sites.

OP, go back to WoW.

This game is not for you, it is only for MATURE players :P

The only difference between a new player and an old player are options.

As a matter of fact, concerning pvp, you don't want to have too many skill points. Makes for more expensive clones and the "need" to fly more expensive shi(t)ps.

My PvP alt stopped training at 15m SP, and he doesn't even have perfect skills in anything. That's roughly 7 months of training though.

Well, that's sort of the thing - there really isn't a direction they "should" go. It's entirely dependent on what you want to do.

Also, I think a lot of people get hung up on flying a given ship or ship class as being something they want to do. New players will frequently say something like, "I want to fly a battleship," instead of, "I want to run level 4 missions," whereas older players generally recognize that ships are frequently-interchangeable tools for accomplishing whatever it is you actually want to do, and not, themselves, the thing that you do.

I've been playing for just over a month now, and I have to admit, the skill system is still a bit boggling and arcane to me. I can investigate simple questions such as "What does it take to fit T2 guns on my boat?" and get an answer and follow it, only to find out when I get there, I still can't fit T2 guns on my boat because I don't have enough cpu/power/smurfberries/etc. Trying to figure out what skills I need to do various things typically ends in me finding a guide someone wrote, and hoping it's somewhat accurate. It doesn't feel as if there's enough information presented to new players in the game as to what direction they should go in sometimes.

Well, that's sort of the thing - there really isn't a direction they "should" go. It's entirely dependent on what you want to do.

Also, I think a lot of people get hung up on flying a given ship or ship class as being something they want to do. New players will frequently say something like, "I want to fly a battleship," instead of, "I want to run level 4 missions," whereas older players generally recognize that ships are frequently-interchangeable tools for accomplishing whatever it is you actually want to do, and not, themselves, the thing that you do.

There is no "SP wall".

Oof. I give up.

Thread summary: Dunning-Kruger poster-child has all the answers, will copy+paste them until you agree.

Since you missed it.
This is the wall that I speak of.
My point is this...

As the game progresses the "SP wall" keeps on getting bigger.
When you play a game you don't want to stick to one specific role and tunnel vision it to be good.
You want to experience multiple roles and see different sides of everything.
In eve you simply cannot do that.
Mining for new players is the worst thing I could imagine for them...
Sitting there mining with low skills when they are simply fueling the bigger players.
To be good at mining and actually breach the wall to be effective you need mining skills and refinery skills.
That's 2 totally different skill paths that makes the wall even bigger.
Now this is only an example... So say this new player gets sick of mining. Guess what?
You are stuck with mining since it would open up a third path where you have to now start training.
That makes the wall even bigger. You want to still train mining and refining to be good but now you want to pvp or run missions. That increase in roles makes the SP training 3x harder... You have to step back and see just how useless new players feel. Now this new player wanting to run mission has to train weapon skills, tanking skills,core skills and piloting skills. Each one of those paths makes the wall tremendously bigger.

I guess I should have explained my post better but it would have been the biggest wall of text ever.
I really hope that I am making sense.

OP is just unexperienced player.

I started playing 3 months ago and I don't feel that there is any "SP wall"

I have fun, can do almost anything and I haven't even joined corp yet. (Will do soon)

I didn't miss it. What I'm asserting is that it's poppycock, and that, with respect to Eve and the many nuances of its interconnected systems, you are incompetent to the point that you lack even the vaguest notion of the depths of that incompetence.

This leads you to believe that you hold the solutions to what you, in your incompetence, have perceived to be problems.

As an example: You clearly have yet to grasp the fact that the opportunity cost inherent in the skill system is a major driving force behind the functionality of the Eve economy.

Hasn't even come REMOTELY close to dawning on you, yet, that homogeneity in skill training - which is really what you're promoting here - would, by definition, kill off a huge portion of economic incentive. When everyone can do everything, nobody needs anyone else to do anything. If it's trivial for me train a combat-miner-industrial pilot, why the **** wouldn't I do that? And once I've done that, why would I ever buy minerals on the market? Or ships for that matter? I can mine on my own. I can build on my own. I can fight on my own. What do I need an economy for, now?

The "problem" you are complaining about is a feature upon which the ENTIRE rest of the game is completely reliant. It is, literally, a requirement that not everyone gets to participate in every role on a whim. It was built that way, ON PURPOSE, and you - some arrogant, know-nothing scrub with a bought character - are sitting here trying to tell us that, for the good of the game, it must be changed to suit you and your impatient friends, without even a moment's consideration for why it was built that way, or what impact such a change would have outside of the tiny, insignificant portion of the game you're familiar with.

And for the love of god, please spare us any more of this insipid nonsense about new player retention. The game is currently enjoying the highest PCU numbers it has seen since the Great Monocle Debacle, so that argument is a non-starter.

Earlier, I was humoring you. I'm quite certain that, short of hopping in a capital ship, whatever the **** your friends wanted to do, it would not have taken them "years" of training to do it. Had you furnished an actual reply to the question (instead of copy-pasting the same ignorant, uninformed drivel over and over and over again), I probably could have given you realistic time estimates, as well as a host of intermediate activities for fun and profit to be done along the way.

I didn't have to read the second sentence to realize that you don't understand the whole reason for my post.
The four friends that I mentioned are all gone. All took different roles. All played differently.
All quit and gone because of one reason.
Either you are trailer trash or have no friends.
Since you took the cat out of the bag and started with the insults.
They were new players not old eve geysers...
Please get with the fact that this post is for new players.
Jou dom vokken poes.

You're right OP. No helpful ideas in the last six pages at all, it's all hopeless, might as well give up now and cancel my subscription.

You can do almost anything?
There is so many roles in eve if you trained to be able to do "everything" in 3 months you have one terrible skill list.
You might be able to mine or pvp that doesn't mean it's worth the amount of time you spend.
To be effective at even one role it takes a few months of training.
Then you are for example a 5/10 effective logistics support.
That's only one role to be a 5/10 and it would take months.

well if you want to do everything perfect it will take you around 20 years to train

Let's end this thread as there is no hope.

I've been playing for just over a month now, and I have to admit, the skill system is still a bit boggling and arcane to me. I can investigate simple questions such as "What does it take to fit T2 guns on my boat?" and get an answer and follow it, only to find out when I get there, I still can't fit T2 guns on my boat because I don't have enough cpu/power/smurfberries/etc. Trying to figure out what skills I need to do various things typically ends in me finding a guide someone wrote, and hoping it's somewhat accurate. It doesn't feel as if there's enough information presented to new players in the game as to what direction they should go in sometimes.

The four friends that I mentioned are all gone. All took different roles. All played differently.
All quit and gone because of one reason.

To get the core skills to an OK-ish level takes about 1.5 years.
That's like STANDARD level certs.

Also "subs are at an all time high".
You mean everyone has like 1-5 alts.
Speak to some miners and find out how many alts they have...

I would estimate 30-50% of subs are unique players.
Also the whole reason why people have alts is to train different skill paths.
This is the only game I have ever come across that people have this many alts.
I mean CCP promotes it. "start your sidekick".

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

Could you imagine starting to play WOW right now and have to grind through all of those expansions just to start playing the game at 90... Then the game only starts right?

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?

Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?

This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

I truly want to see this game grow so help me talk to the right people.

Ok, you win...

I've been having an unbeleive time!

Just as i was thinking of leaving, i made a quick and cheap incursus fit and flew into low sec for some plexing.

This time, i ran just before getting killed burning ship intact! I warped to a nearby station in the panic and managed to find some player wrecks to loot :)

finally, in my panic, I found myself in what I think was Caldari high sec space where I got podded and found out about kill rights :) Hopefully someone will buy mine!

I'm all subbed up and I got a plex (although I don't quite have the funds to sell it yet!) and I think i've realised a lot of what you all have been saying. This is a game of investing time. If i want a quick blast, i can go to sc2 for that. This is more about playing YOUR game and building up to what you want to do. I kept feeling it was all a grind to the next big thing but that's all part of the journey

I'm finding the certificates helpful and i'm having a surprising amount of fun working the Markets as well.

A little over the initial learning curve and the horizon is in sight

Thanks again

Veda

Bolded certain part for clarity. See, there are newbs who "get it".

I am that dedicated player you speak of.
The second day of my trial account I accidentally found a WH and inside of that WH I found 2 mag sites with no sleepers.
I analyzed the cans and opened them. Went to the second site I found and did the same.
Didn't even know what I just did was virtually impossible.
I have never heard of that happen. Made 170M from those 2 sites on my second day of playing eve with no one helping me.
I cannot describe to you just how intense that was for me and wanted my friends to join me.
But now they are gone. All completely different from each other all quit for the same reason.
I even spoke to them individually to make sure my data on why they quit wasn't group based.

Thanx for your time and it's great that you defend the game.
But still not seeing this from a new players perspective that doesn't have the help we did.

Am I speaking the wrong language?
This is a serious discussion sidetracked by trolls.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

Three simple questions.
Zero answers... Will Hefty prevail in finding the answers on the broken internet!?
Find out on the next post. /commence epic outro!

I didn't miss it. What I'm asserting is that it's poppycock, and that, with respect to Eve and the many nuances of its interconnected systems, you are incompetent to the point that you lack even the vaguest notion of the depths of that incompetence.

This leads you to believe that you hold the solutions to what you, in your incompetence, have perceived to be problems.

As an example: You clearly have yet to grasp the fact that the opportunity cost inherent in the skill system is a major driving force behind the functionality of the Eve economy.

Hasn't even come REMOTELY close to dawning on you, yet, that homogeneity in skill training - which is really what you're promoting here - would, by definition, kill off a huge portion of economic incentive. When everyone can do everything, nobody needs anyone else to do anything. If it's trivial for me train a combat-miner-industrial pilot, why the **** wouldn't I do that? And once I've done that, why would I ever buy minerals on the market? Or ships for that matter? I can mine on my own. I can build on my own. I can fight on my own. What do I need an economy for, now?

The "problem" you are complaining about is a feature upon which the ENTIRE rest of the game is completely reliant. It is, literally, a requirement that not everyone gets to participate in every role on a whim. It was built that way, ON PURPOSE, and you - some arrogant, know-nothing scrub with a bought character - are sitting here trying to tell us that, for the good of the game, it must be changed to suit you and your impatient friends, without even a moment's consideration for why it was built that way, or what impact such a change would have outside of the tiny, insignificant portion of the game you're familiar with.

And for the love of god, please spare us any more of this insipid nonsense about new player retention. The game is currently enjoying the highest PCU numbers it has seen since the Great Monocle Debacle, so that argument is a non-starter.

Earlier, I was humoring you. I'm quite certain that, short of hopping in a capital ship, whatever the **** your friends wanted to do, it would not have taken them "years" of training to do it. Had you furnished an actual reply to the question (instead of copy-pasting the same ignorant, uninformed drivel over and over and over again), I probably could have given you realistic time estimates, as well as a host of intermediate activities for fun and profit to be done along the way.

As I said earlier, common sense would tell you that SP is a problem for noobs. Yes, it resolves after some time, but the average player does not want to wait months before he can do what he likes, and a sane publisher like CCP shouldn't expect this either.

Do you seriously expect they stay? Starting a game should be easy and should offer a reasonable progression

Yes, you might be able to do reasonable frigate PvP in 2 weeks of training ( then you need to get the isk, which you don't have as a noob usually),

Just put all that skills into EvEmon and even the most ******** idiot can see that it takes ridiculous ammounts of time from the view of a noob.

Weird how people are bashing on the OP, even going to the point that EVE is not for him - despite the fact that it apparently IS, as HE is having fun with his ISK-generated toon. His problem is that it apparently isn't for his FRIENDS. Please note the difference.

Starting a game should be easy and should offer a reasonable progression.

the hard-core PvPers that are happy with being the tackle monkey

Would you describe the juicy tengus as "bananas" ? I think it fits well personally.

The reason people are "bashing" him is that:

(1) He won't specifiy why it takes "two years to be able to play". People have asked him what he thinks takes two years to train and he refuses to reply.

(2) With respect to his friends quitting, it's blindingly obvious that they did so because HE made them think they'd have to wait 2 years to be able to play.

He is quite literally the very problem that he's complaining about.

Yes, the 2 years were possibly an exagerration unless they were aiming for flying capitals well while NOT training them as a pure alt, while maintaining a healthy progression via (skilled) BC and BS.

On the other hand, IF you care to define capital warfare as EVE's equivalent to progress raiding - which seems a somewhat legitimate analogy...

Sorry m8, but it does not take 1.5 years to train for being able to be self sufficient in eve and "to be able to do stuff". I would draw a line at approx 3 mil SP, thats where you will be able to do lev 4 missions with entry level acceptable speed if you know what you are doing and train just the skills to be able to pull this off.

It's a terrible analogy, because EVE isn't structured anything like WoW. Although come to think of it, it wouldn't surprise me if that's what he has in mind.

It's a question of tolerance for low standards, i suppose.
If someone told me to sit in a BS with 3M SP i would probably tell him to STFU and L2P.

Please define acceptable speed. Again a question of accepting low standards, i suppose.


Yet you forget another major point:
The SP system bases on the concept of attribute mappings. The skills for flying and fitting a ship usually span at least 2 mappings (usually int/mem and per/wil) so in order to not gimp my overall speed at long term catchup, the best I should be able to come up with without burning too many valuable bonus remaps is dividing those 2 mapping periods over my first year plan, investing 1 bonus remap in the process. That in itself will either prevent me from flying (OR from flying it well, i.e. fitting) any worthwhile ship for multiple months. The only way to avoid that is making yet another foul tasting compromise (for example mapping to per/int for the first year).

New characters are given bonus remaps for precisely that reason. If you feel some compulsion to save those "valuable" remaps indefinitely, that's a personal problem. The game can't be designed to accommodate your neuroses.

Yeah right, and that's why veteran players are not given any remaps. Oh wait...

I've tried numerous excursions into low-sec and null sec, only to be obliterated by those who have higher skill points and better ships than me.

To say we are on even playing field is stupid, I can outfit a Jaguar and still be decimated because i don't have all the skills necessary to make that ship completely effective. Roughly 18 days of training just to fly it, than lets see another month of skills to be effective, this goes for most other (regular) frigates as well. You will get obliterated if you don't have the proper skills, Skill Points > Actual Skill.

New characters are given BONUS remaps for precisely that reason. Note the emphasis on "bonus". Everyone else gets an annual remap, with the occasional bonus doled out as holiday gifts.

At this point you've essentially asserted that you want to be able to train a variety of skills at an optimal sp/hr at all times, and not have to spend any of your "valuable" bonus remaps to do it.

This suggests that, if I were to roll a new character and begin training it right now, I would be hopelessly outmatched by, say... You. Do you actually think that's the case?

I said that even WITH burning one of only 2 bonus remaps i realistically expect to have in my lifetime, I'm looking at 2 mapping periods within my first year. To spend those 2 mapping periods efficiently means each of them will have to be at least a few months (i.e. I will have to learn a few skills i might not need IMMEDIATELY, but i will want to have after that year. because I won't be seeing the same remap until the year is over - even longer for the 2nd remap period). So the minimum time spent we're looking at is my complete first remap period + the immediately useful skills from my 2nd remap period.

Which means as an effect from the attribute system ALONE we are looking at about 150 days spent training until i can reach my first short-term goal ship-wise

...yeah, like I said before. Your problems are wholly borne of a neurotic need to min/max.

No, my (and other people like myself's) problems are mostly borne from the attitude of elitist jerks who feel they have a right to an infinite advantage over newer players simply because they started playing the game earlier.

This thread has so many tears of I can't play game if I don't have 100 mil skill points. It is getting a little sad to say the least.

So, What I propose is that CCP gives all new players 100 million free skill points to use where they want too.

This probably still wouldn't stop the whining because these new players wouldn't know what to do with all the skill points.

But at least this same old whine & thread which comes up every other week would change to a new whine fest.

Please, CCP give new players 100 million skill points to start game with.

Nah then the old players would quit, because they be too mad that their 400 years played doesn't equate instant win anymore.

I'll ask again: If more SP = instant win, if I roll a newb right now and train it for, say, two weeks, would the fact that you have more SP than my newb equate to an "instant win" for you?

I'll ask again: If more SP = instant win, if I roll a newb right now and train it for, say, two weeks, would the fact that you have more SP than my newb equate to an "instant win" for you?

Pretty sure I could beat a guy who's only registered kill is against an imparior who had been playing 2+ years. Stop talking like your some knowledgeable source in PVP.

So you're asserting that, yes, your SP would equate to an instant win for you against a two week old pilot?

How about a month old one?

Two months?

Really, this idea of yours is fascinating to me. :D

Yeah i guess you are a little slow on the uptake. Deciphering is hard. How often when you are in null sec and low sec do you encounter a new pilot? Pretty damn rare, everyone i see has been playing 2+ years. Basically by saying this you have furthered my point. I am not allowed to take on a pilot that has been playing 2+ years because he just stomps me, because his ship has better fittings and his trained skills aren't sub-par like mine, if he has the same exact ship as me.

If skill points don't equate to anything than why not let people just have them to a certain extent its already what they are doing its just time invested.

If I were to stomp you with my main, you would blame it on my skillpoints, regardless of the role they actually played. You would feel your point had been proven. More SPs = win, Eve is unfair to new players, whinewhinewhine.

My assertion is that you simply do not know what you are doing, so I'm offering to reverse the roles in the SP-equation. What happens if you lose then? You can't very well blame it on the SP discrepancy anymore, right?



No one said they don't equate to anything - what was said is that they don't do what you are personally claiming that they do.

Pretty sure you said they don't equate to anything, that your 2 week character could easily beat a 5 year old character, thus making skill points null. So basically you are back-stepping hard.

You have to train for a month or two even before you can start PVP and be on a level playing field which i find to be ridiculous.

In that case, you should be able to simply state that my 2 week/1 month/2 month old character would stand no chance against you.

Is Eve PvP so simplistic that the player's actions are functionally irrelevant? Yes, says you.
Does this mean that SPs are the only thing that matters? Yes, says you.
Would you have more SP than any character I rolled today? Yes, obviously.

So why do you keep responding to a simple yes/no question with this tedious expositions?

Way to take what i said out of context, wildly out of context. And to answer your question which i have several times before only you are too blunt to actually notice. Yes, but this is void of my point.

Me: Hey guy who thinks SP is everything, I'll duel you with a 2 week old character and we'll see if you're right. Who's your main?
You: no, U!

You're not even making sense at this point. I'm just going to file you under dunning-kruger poster-troll.

You're totally right, guy. SP is everything and you will always be bad because you started late.

Me: Hey guy who thinks SP is everything, I'll duel you with a 2 week old character and we'll see if you're right. Who's your main?
You: no, U!

You're not even making sense at this point. I'm just going to file you under dunning-kruger poster-troll.

You're totally right, guy. SP is everything and you will always be bad because you started late.

[..blabla..]
Please, CCP give new players 100 million skill points to start game with.