...Apocalypse still sucks, it is a cap hungry ship with bad tank, tracking bonus translates to ~25% more damage to cruisers orbiting at 20km, against battleships, frigates and battlecruisers the difference is much smaller. Other ships have that damage bonus in all situations, and in the old apocalypse if i wanted tracking i could fit for tracking, now my slots are occupied with discharge rigs and cap boosters....

Sounds good, plausible even .. but did you actually ever fit for tracking or did you just add more bodies to the fleet or more tank?
The ~25% more damage from tracking you mention is infinitely more than what can be achieved with a 25% straight damage, care to guess why? ... the old days of wreckings always hitting and thus allowing damage to compete with tracking are dead and buried, if you can't track you can't do damage, period.

Sounds good, plausible even .. but did you actually ever fit for tracking or did you just add more bodies to the fleet or more tank?
The ~25% more damage from tracking you mention is infinitely more than what can be achieved with a 25% straight damage, care to guess why? ... the old days of wreckings always hitting and thus allowing damage to compete with tracking are dead and buried, if you can't track you can't do damage, period.

New cap solution/suggestion: \
- Proposed cap reductions (or not) plus a 20% reduction attached to heatsinks (~50% w. 3 sinks after stacking) ... basically roll an elutriation rig into the sinks (and magstabs if desired/needed/wanted)

The ~25% more damage from tracking you mention is infinitely more than what can be achieved with a 25% straight damage, care to guess why?

Apocalypse is useless. Compared to the Abaddon it will almost always do inferior damage, its optimal bonus is almost always wasted and it has much worse base stats. No one will use it over Abaddon.

Apocalypses bonuses help it to hit small ships I think that is great role for BS.

I too think the Apoc its not worth the money, no damage bonus means you need 3 heat sinks in order to actually have some damage to apply (around 730 dps with IMF and megapulses, not very impressive). But that leaves you with less than 100k ehp a bit low for a BS imo, I think as an ABS I would prefer to fly the new Tempest, a bit more armor, damage selection, utility slots, a bit less sig radius and slighty more speed, no cap weakness... I-¦m not saying it-¦s OP , just slighty better than the apoc.

But I admit I don-¦t have experience in large fleet fights so maybe it-¦s usefull there.

Its sad that we get nice bonuses for lasers on some ship hulls and seems that the consesus for amarr weapon system being projectiles.

Just playing devil's advocate because I like to:

Like the Abaddon and Armageddon?

Same slots, same powergrid, 20 CPU difference between the two.

They'll both be using lasers, and both armor tanking.

Ugh, I know I've been over this a lot, but I feel the Apoc really needs something else to distinguish it from the Abaddon. Maybe an 8/3/8 layout similar to the old 'geddon.

So, just to reiterate the proposed changes in this thread so far:
Abbadon to a 7 turret 7.5% damage boat - do with the nonturret slot as felt appropriate, Abbadon to a 6 turret boat with 10% damage - do with the slots as appropriate; Abaddon cap raised 6750/1125/6.0 (averaged these specific numbers out from those suggested so far);

Apocalypse to lose range bonus in favor of either a ROF or Damage bonus (if ROF, give it more cap as well) while keeping the tracking bonus;

Armegeddon to have more PG to be able to fit a full rack of nuets or Tachs and Neuts.

(I deliberately left out suggestions that would completely ignore the tiericide initiative as those would definately only get ignored.)

Armegeddon to have more PG to be able to fit a full rack of nuets or Tachs and Neuts.

(I deliberately left out suggestions that would completely ignore the tiericide initiative as those would definately only get ignored.)

Then you should have left that statement out. First off, unbonused, the Armageddon will never fire lasers. Period. Secondly, CCP Rise specifically reduced the Powergrid on the Armageddon so it couldn't fit a whole row of Neus. Maybe I'm miss-remembering, but I believe it was in response to people claiming he Armageddon to be too OP.

So, just to reiterate the proposed changes in this thread so far:
Abbadon to a 7 turret 7.5% damage boat - do with the nonturret slot as felt appropriate, Abbadon to a 6 turret boat with 10% damage - do with the slots as appropriate; Abaddon cap raised 6750/1125/6.0 (averaged these specific numbers out from those suggested so far);

Apocalypse to lose range bonus in favor of either a ROF or Damage bonus (if ROF, give it more cap as well) while keeping the tracking bonus;

Armegeddon to have more PG to be able to fit a full rack of nuets or Tachs and Neuts.

(I deliberately left out suggestions that would completely ignore the tiericide initiative as those would definately only get ignored.)

... believe it was in response to people claiming he Armageddon to be too OP.

Just goes to show that he sucks at giving people grey hairs .. he should have allowed people to fit all neuts and then laughed maniacally when they realised that they have no hope in hell of actually using all that suction due to cap restrictions

given that it's an amarr ship you'd think he would listen to the people in the amarr thread

Says it all really, they haven't hit tranquility yet, but somehow people think it's op, given that it's an amarr ship you'd think he would listen to the people in the amarr thread the vast majority of which preferred the old Armageddon.

Would boosting the Apoc's range bonus to 10% make it any more usefull (ala the Rokh's and N.omen's range bonus)?

DAT geddon.. Probably the coolest ship change so far. Welcome to the cheap alternative to the bhaal!

Range bonus on heavy neuts is not an op bonus. Dont compare it to Bhaalgorn.