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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 51 post(s) |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2500
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Posted - 2013.05.22 14:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey everyone
As of today, the data/relic sites (the old hacking/archaeology) sites have been updated for highsec and lowsec. WeGÇÖre currently working on updating the 0.0 ones, which should be coming within the next 2-3 days.
For now, weGÇÖd love it if you tried our new exploration experience. Grab a ship, head into high sec or low sec and scan some signatures. What weGÇÖre looking for specifically, is stuff like:
- How do you like the look and feel of the new sites? We put in new containers and moved things around.
- How do you like the hacking challenge? What were the results? (what was your strength and coherency, did you win the challenges etc)
- How do you like the new looting mechanic?
Quick note: This thread is the sites/hacking game/loot mechanic. Probe, system scanner feedback etc, is not for this thread.
Also, I think I'll do a few known issues:
- There are some performance issues related to the clouds in some sites
- The 0.0 sites have all the containers on top of each other
Anyway, weGÇÖll be watching the thread for potential changes, thanks guys.
Soundwave
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2500
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Posted - 2013.05.22 14:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sisi is being updated right now btw. |
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Salpun
Paramount Commerce
494
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Posted - 2013.05.22 14:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Sisi is being updated right now btw. Did the remirror get deployed today? |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2500
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Posted - 2013.05.22 14:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Salpun wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Sisi is being updated right now btw. Did the remirror get deployed today?
Update today, remirror tomorrow! |
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1047
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Posted - 2013.05.22 14:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Server says its off line. Is there an ETA for when it will be back up? Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2500
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Posted - 2013.05.22 14:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:The Server says its off line. Is there an ETA for when it will be back up?
40 minutes max I believe (15:30 EVE time) |
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Salpun
Paramount Commerce
494
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Posted - 2013.05.22 14:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Sisi is being updated right now btw. Did the remirror get deployed today? Update today, remirror tomorrow! Sorry but I cant bug hunt then
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Ahnn
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2013.05.22 14:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Sisi is being updated right now btw. Did the remirror get deployed today? Update today, remirror tomorrow!
Great news, Soundwave, thanks! |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
494
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ahnn wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Sisi is being updated right now btw. Did the remirror get deployed today? Update today, remirror tomorrow! Great news, Soundwave, thanks! Yes it is great news lol.
Now if they got the new auto update password programing in to days build everything would be perfect. |
Sarmatiko
1129
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 15:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
I wonder how COSMOS archeology sites and Epic ark missions that require hacking\archeology will be affected with those changes? I hope developers didn't forget to update loot tables for those old containers..
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MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
18
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
login right now, cant wait to try it |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
330
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Also, I think I'll do a few known issues:
- There are some performance issues related to the clouds in some sites
- The 0.0 sites have all the containers on top of each other
Anyway, we'll be watching the thread for potential changes, thanks guys. Soundwave There are major performance issues with ALL the clouds, in every site / mission in the entire game - can you please, please, please just remove the damn things already, or at least make them optional. It would probably be the most popular feature in the entire expansion. Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
130
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Also, I think I'll do a few known issues:
- There are some performance issues related to the clouds in some sites
- The 0.0 sites have all the containers on top of each other
Anyway, we'll be watching the thread for potential changes, thanks guys. Soundwave There are major performance issues with ALL the clouds, in every site / mission in the entire game - can you please, please, please just remove the damn things already, or at least make them optional. It would probably be the most popular feature in the entire expansion.
+1.
At least add an option in configuration to remove these clouds. EVE is pretty, but I can't see it when I'm zoomed all the way out to try and salvage what little FPS I can when I'm having to navigate through one of these horrid things. |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2501
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:I wonder how COSMOS archeology sites and Epic ark missions that require hacking\archeology will be affected with those changes? I hope developers didn't forget to update loot tables for those old containers..
Should be taken care of. The rule of thumb should be if a container has a "vital" component for completion, it will not scatter (and thereby not risk getting stuck), but if a container only contains loot, the scatter mechanic will apply. |
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Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
699
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
how much are these sites even worth for isk? Would one of these in lowsec be as profitable as a gas cloud ladar site in lowsec? |
Dax Buchanan
Straya. Scrapyard.
2
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
There was a lot of negativity expressed towards the scatter mechanic, the difficulty / player skill required for the hacking game and the loot (ie: junk) released in this thread Has this been addressed? |
Kor'el Izia
52
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dax Buchanan wrote:There was a lot of negativity expressed towards the scatter mechanic, the difficulty / player skill required for the hacking game and the loot (ie: junk) released in this thread Has this been addressed? I think a lot of the potential damage could be mitigated by simply reusing the jetcan mechanics; allowing the scattered cans to live for 1-2h.
I quite like the anology someone posted to the fisherman |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1047
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Found a Decayed Guristas Particle Accelerator .4 space. Virus Strength is 30 Coherence is 125. I was able to complete the first spew can with about 50 Coherence remaining, the loot was worth about 12,200 ISK. The next 3 spew cans I was not able to successfully hack, and were destroyed. New Mini-Game overall challenge 8/10. Loot for Difficulty 1/10
The Dust cloud killed my FPS also Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1470
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 15:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Not very well so far.
http://eve-files.com/dl/262592
Can is inside station and has a invisible wall keeping me about 7k away.
Site is "Decayed Blood Raider Mass Grave". CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
18
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
sorting option (by clicking the "Distance" "ID" etc.) not functional |
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Kata Amentis
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
76
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
"anti virus suppressors" are basically a "give up" find. Reduces your attack to 1... only counter I've found is to use two of the "secondary vector" utilities (damage over time) on them, assuming you find those. Curiosity killed the Kata...
... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1047
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Next site destroyed my fps, before I could even start the mini-game. Starting FPS 60, At the spew can 6 FPS Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2501
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Not very well so far. http://eve-files.com/dl/262592Can is inside station and has a invisible wall keeping me about 7k away. Site is "Decayed Blood Raider Mass Grave".
Filed a bug report, we'll check it out, thanks. |
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Mario delTorres
GBTeam C0VEN
8
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
Is +1 Coherence bonus for level of Hacking/Archeology skill permanent? I think it should be little more, 5 for level at least... |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2501
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:52:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dax Buchanan wrote:There was a lot of negativity expressed towards the scatter mechanic, the difficulty / player skill required for the hacking game and the loot (ie: junk) released in this thread Has this been addressed?
We've reduced the number of cans and are looking at loot table again. In general though, the scattering and picking up of cans remains. |
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1047
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Dax Buchanan wrote:There was a lot of negativity expressed towards the scatter mechanic, the difficulty / player skill required for the hacking game and the loot (ie: junk) released in this thread Has this been addressed? We've reduced the number of cans and are looking at loot table again. In general though, the scattering and picking up of cans remains. The loot that I always seem to get is just data sheets, scrap metal, small arms, and electronic parts. Only twice have I gotten an item that is normally found in a Data or Relic site. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2503
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Posted - 2013.05.22 15:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Dax Buchanan wrote:There was a lot of negativity expressed towards the scatter mechanic, the difficulty / player skill required for the hacking game and the loot (ie: junk) released in this thread Has this been addressed? We've reduced the number of cans and are looking at loot table again. In general though, the scattering and picking up of cans remains. The loot that I always seem to get is just data sheets, scrap metal, small arms, and electronic parts. Only twice have I gotten an item that is normally found in a Data or Relic site.
Yep, we're going through it again. The value you get from these sites should rival or be slightly above what you're getting today. |
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
1018
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 16:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Grey Azorria wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Also, I think I'll do a few known issues:
- There are some performance issues related to the clouds in some sites
- The 0.0 sites have all the containers on top of each other
Anyway, we'll be watching the thread for potential changes, thanks guys. Soundwave There are major performance issues with ALL the clouds, in every site / mission in the entire game - can you please, please, please just remove the damn things already, or at least make them optional. It would probably be the most popular feature in the entire expansion. +1. At least add an option in configuration to remove these clouds. EVE is pretty, but I can't see it when I'm zoomed all the way out to try and salvage what little FPS I can when I'm having to navigate through one of these horrid things.
Just to clear this up - I fully intend to revisit the clouds in missions issue but that won't happen for Odyssey. The new hacking and archaeology sites DO NOT have mission clouds in them. We have removed all mission/old style clouds from the sites. The new containers have particle effects attached and the issue currently is that in some sites 6 cans are stacked on top of each other and 6 particle effects on top of each other will obviously cause FPS issues :) This has been fixed in some sites and will be fixed in all sites in the coming days. CCP Affinity | Follow me on Twitter Content Designer for EVE Online |
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1047
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Posted - 2013.05.22 16:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ok, did a Data site. Again loot was poor (but that has been addressed here) The mini-game was challenging again. 3 spew can were at the site, 1 was successfully hacked the other 2 were destroyed. It would seem there are a lot of very strong defensive software in these sites, one site I hit 5 in a row, each with a coherence of 60 and strength of 30. Again my Virus Strength is 30 and Coherence is 125. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Killua Zoldyeck
Jump Zero
3
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Posted - 2013.05.22 16:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yep, we're going through it again. The value you get from these sites should rival or be slightly above what you're getting today.
That's good to hear. Loot right now is worthless.
But there's a great concern from what you just said. The value should be slightly above of what we're getting today.
I'm assuming today means on Tranquillity. Well, please can you clarify it a bit further?
The TOTAL loot from a site will be slightly above of the total loot available to a single profession site on tranquillity? Or the PER PERSON loot from an Odyssey site will be slightly above of the total loot available to a single profession site on tranquillity?
That's very important. If I bring a friend with the new Odyssey exploration mechanics, we should both get at least rougly as much as a person can currently get on Tranquillity solo.
For example, if now in tranquillity I can solo explore a site and get 50mil isk worth of loot, in Odyssey if I bring a friend, on the same site, we should get ~50 mil isk each not total... Because in that way a single person would get HALF what he gets today on Tranquillity, netting a severe nerf on income.
Please clarify :) Thanks! |
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CCP Prime
C C P C C P Alliance
33
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Posted - 2013.05.22 16:24:00 -
[31] - Quote
Killua Zoldyeck wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yep, we're going through it again. The value you get from these sites should rival or be slightly above what you're getting today.
That's good to hear. Loot right now is worthless. But there's a great concern from what you just said: "The value should be slightly above of what we're getting today." I'm assuming today means on Tranquillity. Well, please can you clarify it a bit further? The TOTAL loot from a site will be slightly above of the total loot available to a single profession site on tranquillity? Or the PER PERSON loot from an Odyssey site will be slightly above of the total loot available to a single profession site on tranquillity? That's very important. If I bring a friend with the new Odyssey exploration mechanics, we should both get at least rougly as much as a person can currently get on Tranquillity solo. For example, if now in tranquillity I can solo explore a site and get 50mil isk worth of loot, in Odyssey if I bring a friend, on the same site, we should get ~50 mil isk each not total... Because in that way a single person would get HALF what he gets today on Tranquillity, netting a severe nerf on income. Please clarify :) Thanks!
The loot in general is about doubled with some high valued things never dropped before added in to the mix. So the intent is to make a single player get the same as currently on TQ plus some icing on the cake on avarage. Hence two players, if the scoop everything up, should both be getting loot worth their while.
Programmer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2503
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Posted - 2013.05.22 16:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
Killua Zoldyeck wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yep, we're going through it again. The value you get from these sites should rival or be slightly above what you're getting today.
That's good to hear. Loot right now is worthless. But there's a great concern from what you just said: "The value should be slightly above of what we're getting today." I'm assuming today means on Tranquillity. Well, please can you clarify it a bit further? The TOTAL loot from a site will be slightly above of the total loot available to a single profession site on tranquillity? Or the PER PERSON loot from an Odyssey site will be slightly above of the total loot available to a single profession site on tranquillity? That's very important. If I bring a friend with the new Odyssey exploration mechanics, we should both get at least rougly as much as a person can currently get on Tranquillity solo. For example, if now in tranquillity I can solo explore a site and get 50mil isk worth of loot, in Odyssey if I bring a friend, on the same site, we should get ~50 mil isk each not total... Because in that way a single person would get HALF what he gets today on Tranquillity, netting a severe nerf on income. Please clarify :) Thanks!
Have you played it after Sisi was deployed today? We've doubled the loot in each site (to account for cans you don't get), added new types (the faction towers are back in) and cut the number of cans in half. This should be in much better shape now (if it's not, we'll continue making changes of course).
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Dax Buchanan
Straya. Scrapyard.
2
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Posted - 2013.05.22 16:27:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Dax Buchanan wrote:There was a lot of negativity expressed towards the scatter mechanic, the difficulty / player skill required for the hacking game and the loot (ie: junk) released in this thread Has this been addressed? We've reduced the number of cans and are looking at loot table again. In general though, the scattering and picking up of cans remains. The loot that I always seem to get is just data sheets, scrap metal, small arms, and electronic parts. Only twice have I gotten an item that is normally found in a Data or Relic site. Yep, we're going through it again. The value you get from these sites should rival or be slightly above what you're getting today.
Could i suggest that you remove the junk from the loot tables (it is really disheartening to get them) and replace it with cheap forms of what are in the sites on tranquility, eg datacores for data and t1 salvage for relic. That way all collected cans are useful, with most being just steady isk income and a few being the "jackpot" ones. |
Killua Zoldyeck
Jump Zero
3
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Posted - 2013.05.22 16:29:00 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote: The loot in general is about doubled with some high valued things never dropped before added in to the mix. So the intent is to make a single player get the same as currently on TQ plus some icing on the cake on avarage. Hence two players, if the scoop everything up, should both be getting loot worth their while.
That's great to hear! Thanks :)
CCP Prime wrote: Have you played it after Sisi was deployed today? We've doubled the loot in each site (to account for cans you don't get), added new types (the faction towers are back in) and cut the number of cans in half. This should be in much better shape now (if it's not, we'll continue making changes of course).
Not yet, I was just taking this opportunity to ask for clarification. And you both kindly answered me, thank you :) |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1470
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 16:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
125/30
Hacking is a bit more challenging but still just seems like random clicking.
Loot is still mostly NPC commodities.
And loot pinata is still terrible. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1048
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 16:31:00 -
[36] - Quote
found a C3 wormhole, I will be exploring that and see what the sites are like in there Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
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CCP RedDawn
C C P C C P Alliance
333
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Posted - 2013.05.22 16:50:00 -
[37] - Quote
Hi there,
The issue with the +1 on the Hacking and Archaeology skills is a known issue. It should of course be +10 Coherency. Another known issue is the one where your Coherence doesn't return to it's original value once the Anti-Virus Suppressors is destroyed. It should of course go back up to what it was originally.
Both will be fixed soon and most definitely before release. Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1048
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Posted - 2013.05.22 16:55:00 -
[38] - Quote
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Tsubutai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
205
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Posted - 2013.05.22 16:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
Ran a Local Serpentis Mainframe in highsec with a virus strength of 20 and coherence of 90. Hacked both cans with ease, got ~17k isk worth of loot. Also ran a Local Serpentis Virus Test Site in highsec - again, the hacking was very easy but the loot was completely worthless.
I then moved to lowsec and did a Regional Serpentis Backup Server and a Decayed Serpentis Quarry (which are, IIRC, the 'hardest' relic and data sites you can get in serpentis lowsec). I was eventually able to access four of the six cans in the Backup Server and five of the eight in the Quarry. The hacking was much more challenging in this case, but I was able to get through OK-ish. The loot value for the two sites was around 28m, which is rather poor given that this was in lowsec and the hacking was fairly time-consuming.
A few other observations: in some cases, when you fail to hack a can at the first attempt, the game spawns an NPC cruiser that attacks you but allows you to have another go at the hack. I was running the sites in a tengu, so was able to just ignore the cruiser spawns since there was no way they were going to get through my shields; had I been in an exploration frigate or covops, the cruiser would have been dangerous and I would have been forced to kill it. It might be worth making the spawned NPCs tackle the player, since that would force you to deal with them no matter how tanky your ship. The hacking itself was alright - the randomness was a bit frustrating, but there seems to be at least some scope for strategy in terms of what route you pick and so on.
One concern I have with the new system relates to the relative strength of the T1 and T2 analyzers - the T2 versions are massively stronger (75 coherence/30 strength versus 50/20) and require the archaeology/hacking skills at V to use, so in effect, the gap between having the skill trained to IV and V is very big indeed. Might be an idea to introduce faction relic/data analyzers with similar stats to the T2 variants but lower skill requirements to enable players who haven't yet maxed out their skills to be competitive. The spew mechanic was alright once I'd gotten used to it - in an MWD-fit tengu with a bunch of nanofibers in the lows, I was consistently able to grab half the jettisoned cans without too much difficulty. |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
332
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Posted - 2013.05.22 16:59:00 -
[40] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. IIRC wormhole sites will still have rats, only 'regular' k-space sites have no initial rats.
CCP Affinity wrote:Just to clear this up - I fully intend to revisit the clouds in missions issue but that won't happen for Odyssey. The new hacking and archaeology sites DO NOT have mission clouds in them. We have removed all mission/old style clouds from the sites. The new containers have particle effects attached and the issue currently is that in some sites 6 cans are stacked on top of each other and 6 particle effects on top of each other will obviously cause FPS issues :) This has been fixed in some sites and will be fixed in all sites in the coming days. GÖÑ Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice. |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2504
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Posted - 2013.05.22 17:00:00 -
[41] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers.
This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report and added to the known problems in the OP. |
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1048
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Posted - 2013.05.22 17:05:00 -
[42] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report Luckily I was in a T3, otherwise I would have lost my 2,500 isk ship. Please look at this one also, Bug Report ID 158937 Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
332
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report and added to the known problems in the OP. I was under the impression that this was actually intended, since the lore reason for there being no NPCs didn't really apply to Sleepers? Not to mention that the main ISK from these sites actually came from the Sleepers. Oh well. Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3 |
Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
32
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Posted - 2013.05.22 17:13:00 -
[44] - Quote
CCP RedDawn wrote:Hi there,
The issue with the +1 on the Hacking and Archaeology skills is a known issue. It should of course be +10 Coherency. Another known issue is the one where your Coherence doesn't return to it's original value once the Anti-Virus Suppressors is destroyed. It should of course go back up to what it was originally.
Both will be fixed soon and most definitely before release.
Great! What about Hacking/Archaeology rigs? Seems they have no bonus to Coherence too. |
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CCP RedDawn
C C P C C P Alliance
333
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:17:00 -
[45] - Quote
Paul Clancy wrote:CCP RedDawn wrote:Hi there,
The issue with the +1 on the Hacking and Archaeology skills is a known issue. It should of course be +10 Coherency. Another known issue is the one where your Coherence doesn't return to it's original value once the Anti-Virus Suppressors is destroyed. It should of course go back up to what it was originally.
Both will be fixed soon and most definitely before release. Great! What about Hacking/Archaeology rigs? Seems they have no bonus to Coherence too.
Yup, both the Memetic Algorithm Bank and Emission Scope Sharpener rigs have been fixed. It's just not on Singularity yet.
Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Killua Zoldyeck
Jump Zero
3
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Posted - 2013.05.22 17:18:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote:A few other observations: in some cases, when you fail to hack a can at the first attempt, the game spawns an NPC cruiser that attacks you.
I was under the impression that NPC were eliminated from exploration sites, thus enabling us to use Exploration Ships (like the Covert Ops) and not fit guns or tank modules.
If a Cruiser spawns and I'm in a covert ops, I would be forced to leave the site...
I hope this is a bug, no NPC should spawn ever. If I fail to hack a can, my punishment is that the can loot is lost forever, not that a NPC comes and forces me to leave the site forever as I'm not able to kill it with a covert ops.
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1048
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:24:00 -
[47] - Quote
CCP RedDawn wrote:Paul Clancy wrote:CCP RedDawn wrote:Hi there,
The issue with the +1 on the Hacking and Archaeology skills is a known issue. It should of course be +10 Coherency. Another known issue is the one where your Coherence doesn't return to it's original value once the Anti-Virus Suppressors is destroyed. It should of course go back up to what it was originally.
Both will be fixed soon and most definitely before release. Great! What about Hacking/Archaeology rigs? Seems they have no bonus to Coherence too. Yup, both the Memetic Algorithm Bank and Emission Scope Sharpener rigs have been fixed. It's just not on Singularity yet. Any Chance on reducing the calibration cost of those? They seem quite high for what they give. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1470
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:29:00 -
[48] - Quote
Killua Zoldyeck wrote:
I hope this is a bug, no NPC should spawn ever. If I fail to hack a can, my punishment is that the can loot is lost forever, not that a NPC comes and forces me to leave the site forever as I'm not able to kill it with a covert ops.
Doesn't seem like a bug. If you fail a hack attempt once it spawns a single rat, if you fail it twice the can blows up.
Which the blowing up part is cool. I don't mind the rats personally since it sets some bar especially in low-0.0 sites. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1878
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:29:00 -
[49] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report and added to the known problems in the OP. Are you sure? I remember other dev posts saying that of all data and relic sites, sleeper sites would keep their rats. Right now the sleepers are easiest at the gas and ore sites, harder at the anomalies, and hardest at the data and relic sites. Taking them away from those sites will transition them form the hardest sites to the easiest sites in Anoikis. Is that the intent? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
All right,after a long search for one I finally ran one. I've done exploration for a long long time, so how to go about saying thisGǪ. everything in this new experience is awful.
After warping to a site I found the comm towers will not let you hack them (I'm guessing not competed yet?). But I start in on the data shards and well, the mini game is one big ball of frustration. First off, it takes far longer to do the mini-game then it did before to let a module hack. So sites now take a lot longer to do. And most importantly in lowsec that's time I'm not on the Dscan. My skills in game before this allowed me to hack any container rather quickly with only a really small few that took a long time, every mini game now feels like it takes longer than that.
On the first attempt at the hack I failed. This is after finding two tools to help and not wasting any points on hacking blockers before finding the core. Nothing like random number generated failure to put the explorer in a good mood! So now that a rat has spawned I have to fly back and get a combat ship just like I did before anyway, so thanks for removing the rats. So that annoyance is still there, all because? Something, something, "punishing failure", "rewarding success" yada yada, that in the end just all felt like I had to deal with a huge annoyance all because of random number generator. Great gameplay.
So after getting back, killing rat and starting new hack I got it. And then the loot pinata! To say the this is awful to do on a laptop trackpad is an understatement. It feels like it was designed with only a mouse in mind. I was able to grab only 4 containers. It was a chaotic, frustrating, clickfest. Too hard to click on them while moving quickly, and overshooting them was common. Even with no MWD it was hard to click on the right point, and just not fun. After all that then I get rewarded with the most awful loot and the sense of failure at what got a away. Good job guys.
On to the second container, now that I'm at 4x the time it used to take me to run one of these sites. The second container was all blockers in the mini game. Like 6 of them. So after failing that game when the new rat showed up strangely while fighting him the container blew up (I never activated a gun on it). So yea, more strange random failure or frustrating design? So in the end I took 4x-5x longer to do a site, and got a few thousand isk in rewards compared to an average of 12-30 million before (the loot was random data sheets and small armsGǪ you know junk).
All in all now that I ran one, I feel frustration born dread in having to do these again for isk. Do not like at all. |
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1048
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:36:00 -
[51] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report and added to the known problems in the OP. Are you sure? I remember other dev posts saying that of all data and relic sites, sleeper sites would keep their rats. Right now the sleepers are easiest at the gas and ore sites, harder at the anomalies, and hardest at the data and relic sites. Taking them away from those sites will transition them form the hardest sites to the easiest sites in Anoikis. Is that the intent? Edit: This will also nerf Anoikis as an income source. Loot form sleepers at the data and relic sites is a significant income source for those exploring and living there. I believe the intent is to promote more people to explore W-space and right now there is a very high barrier due to the sleepers. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Mario delTorres
GBTeam C0VEN
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
I think the ammount of spammed cans should be reduced. I just found guritas data site in lowsec. There was 3 data cans. When I've scaned them with cargo scanner: I've got: first and second has only 1 decryptor, third has 1 decryptor and about 40 datainterfaces parts. How many containters are spawned after successful hack? 15? 20? I wasn't count. But if it is 20 there is only 5% chance to catch this one with good loot. Inside other 95% are data sheets, small parts and so on.
Relic sites has a little better. Inside cans are 2-3 kinds of loot, the chance is then better. The best is in nullsec when is 5-6 types of loot in one can.
It should be repaired. I have 2 ideas: 1. An amount of containters spawned after succesful analyzinn should be based on amount of proper loot. 2. As told ew posts above.There shouldn't be worthless loot (data sheet etc), but in every spawned containter should be loot worth of sale. Let it be 1 or 2 cheapest exploration/salvage parts but let it be useful. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1470
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:44:00 -
[53] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: very high barrier due to the sleepers.
This is kind of the point? It's only a high barrier if you solo, the point of WH was to group up. Which is what CCP did right when it comes to promoting co-op/group play. The pinata however does not.
Takes 1 person to scan, 1 person to hack, and multiple people to loot? Backwards logic.
Apocraphya still stands as the best expansion, which ironically Odyssey looks to destroy(not in a good way).
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:54:00 -
[54] - Quote
Did run 3 low sec guristas relic sites:
The containers still were on top of each other in each site. Loot was abysmal (little over 1m isk average). Hacking difficulty felt well balanced (125/30 on my site), about 70% success rate. Rat spawns are easy enough to run the sites in cov ops frig. The minigame still feels very random but there is at least a little bit of strategy involved now.
The loot spewing i find still horrible. It's by far the least enjoyable part of the new sites. The symbols are too small, too many cans - it really gets ridiculous after hacking the 3rd or 4th container, tractor beam feels painfully slow, keeping an eye on local and dscan is very hard because you have to focus so much on the cans. I really wish you would reconsider this mechanic or use it for what it feels like: a punishment. Trust me you'll get a lot of flack for this come Odyssey because it really isn't fun.
All in all i think these sites could be much more enjoyable if they were centered around the hacking game not the loot spewing. My idea would be to have in each hacking game not just a system core but also a node that leads one level deeper in the security system. So player can choose between hacking the core or consider to to take a risk and go deeper with remaining virus strenght to find even better loot. And then should this fail l |
Jocca Quinn
Matari BackBone
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:11:00 -
[55] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Dax Buchanan wrote:There was a lot of negativity expressed towards the scatter mechanic, the difficulty / player skill required for the hacking game and the loot (ie: junk) released in this thread Has this been addressed? We've reduced the number of cans and are looking at loot table again. In general though, the scattering and picking up of cans remains.
So in answer to the OP, "No".
Its AWESOME! right? |
Maddan69
Sickology
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
I just don't see the logic behind the loot explosion after successfully completing the mini-game... It's not a reward it's a hindrance.
Fail the hacking attempt you get the loot explosion. Succeed the hacking attempt you loot the container like you would normally.
The loot explosion is not rewarded and if it is introduced when patch day comes I will purposely just de-spawn the site for something better to spawn.. and this is coming from someone who does exploration every single day. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1836
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
So, I went through highsec my 20 jump route, found 3 relic and 1 data site and got a whopping 1.5mil in crap from them. Also lost 0.2 faction standing because I forgot to jettison the small arms once. Please get rid of contraband drops.
With 90 coherence and 20 strength, I am able to succeed in all but two hacks when I had to break more than three firewalls without finding a repair tool. Getting a sense of how the levels are generated allows you to explore farther before hitting a firewall, increasing your chance to completely avoid them or to get enough repair tools to break through everything.
I manage to get around 8-10 cans per pi+¦ata. Getting the ship into the right speed into the right direction is highly annoying, looting selectively only certain types of cans is next to impossible due to them only displaying the name when hovering over them and the time constraints. I still hate the pi+¦ata with a passion.
The hacking game is becoming something interesting but the loot tables need work and the pi+¦ata a heavy club in its face to put it out of its misery. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Nicola Arman
Saiph Industries Talocan United
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:36:00 -
[58] - Quote
Why do the cans scatter after SUCCESS??? I don't understand the logic behind this. As an active explorer it makes me sad to see this implemented.. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1048
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:51:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ok, I have finished a C1 Data site, I picked up about 8~10 cans form one spew container. I received 6 items form that spew container and the total value of that container was about 700k. The only WH item that was there was a R.A.M. Hybrid Technology.
Please remove the "Junk" items from the database. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Tsubutai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
206
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 18:55:00 -
[60] - Quote
Regarding the balancing of these sites - it looks as though the T1 exploration frigates will be the optimal ships for running radar and relic sites in lowsec (and possibly 0.0, depending on what kind of rats spawn in response to failed hacking attempts) due to their hull bonus to virus strength. Assuming the rewards for the sites are buffed to match or exceed current SiSi payouts, this seems to present a rather lopsided risk:reward ratio, since a minmaxed hacking-fit heron costs around 10m at most but can potentially be used to farm faction tower BPCs, decryptors, and the doodads needed to manufacture the new T2 scanning mods... |
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1758
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 19:18:00 -
[61] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote: How do you like the new looting mechanic?
i think the container icons are far to small. Remember how fun it was to hit the 2 square pixel overheating button before there was the shift shortcut? We have the same problem again just in the looting mechanic - but this time the buttons are moving. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Finedele
Science Ore and Technologie Insidious Associates
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:14:00 -
[62] - Quote
way too many container spewing out while there is way too much **** inside it |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1878
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:16:00 -
[63] - Quote
I found one high sec data site with 4 cans. Hacked all 4 on the first try, although one was quite close. One of the tools you find says it reduces the strength of the firewalls by a factor of two. But when you click on it...none of the strength numbers change. Its sort of confusing as to just what it does, or if its doing anything at all.
The cans were all on top of each other.
Im not sure about this spew mechanic. One one hand I'm getting good at it. On the other it seems... odd. I can see that it fits with the idea of having EVE be more than "activate module, wait, receive bacon". Just not sure this is the proper way.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
TurboX3
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:31:00 -
[64] - Quote
Also, I think I'll do a few known issues:
- There are some performance issues related to the clouds in some sites
- The 0.0 sites have all the containers on top of each other
- Wormhole sites still have NPCs - they should be taken out like the other sites
- Containers do not despawn properly upon completion
Anyway, weGÇÖll be watching the thread for potential changes, thanks guys.
Soundwave[/quote]
SOUNDWAVE - WTF regarding taking out NPC's in WH's (radar/mag)....... explain why? Its crazy & disappointing -10 You should make greater rewards in Wh space, like in 0.0 with officer mods (how about sleeper mods)??? |
Thor66777
Obstergo Polarized.
20
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:32:00 -
[65] - Quote
Wormhole sites still have NPCs - they should be taken out like the other sites
What the **** is this? No they shouldn't, unless something it being done about the difficulty of the hacking mini-game, so wh take much longer than any other area. |
Space Wanderer
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:50:00 -
[66] - Quote
Found a relic site, hacked all the 5 containers. With archeo 5 and T2 module the minigame is very very easy if you are just a bit careful. Not sure whether that's really what you want.
I managed to catch about half of the ejected canisters without fitting my ships with nanos and/or ab/mwd. This still gives some canisters to catch for friends but is a good catch for solo explorer. I guess that you balanced that number pretty well. |
Adunh Slavy
832
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:53:00 -
[67] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote: There are major performance issues with ALL the clouds, in every site / mission in the entire game - can you please, please, please just remove the damn things already, or at least make them optional. It would probably be one of the most popular features in the entire expansion.
/Signed |
sXyphos
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 20:59:00 -
[68] - Quote
How about this radical yet logical change: You Hack the site: * if successfull you can grab the loot normally as currently on TQ *if unsuccessfull all the containers in the "structure" are spewed out and you are forced to erratically chase after them in hopes of geting something.
I'm sorry if this overrides CCP's intention of co-op exploring but these sites are just wrong for this,if u want to bring people together through exploring focus on combat sites or create new types of sites designed specifically for this. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1758
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:04:00 -
[69] - Quote
can you distribute the containers a little bit? why do they have to be all on top of each other.. the wreck is large enough and the data site thingy is even larger to have them on multiple locations. A proper solution would be to make parts of the structures looteable instead of using containers. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1178
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:05:00 -
[70] - Quote
The whole point of the loot spew is that it encourages bringing friends. The loot you can grab on your own is balanced to be worth doing alone, or should be once the drop tables are finalized. You might even get lucky and snag one of the high value cans and get something like a faction tower BPC. Because of the way it's setup, you can bring friends and not decrease your overall income, and maybe even increase it, since more cans means more shots at those juicy ones. And, the design means that the friends have to be actual friends instead of just a second or third account as with so many other supposedly "social" activities in eve.
Because of this, if they were tuned for one person, you wouldn't be missing out on loot, because the extra loot you can't get on your own wouldn't be there in the first place. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
|
sXyphos
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:22:00 -
[71] - Quote
I see your point but the loot balance must be very thought over to make it worthwhile.Guess it's decent if u put it that way,constant income with a chance of a jackpot that increases with friends |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1178
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:28:00 -
[72] - Quote
sXyphos wrote:I see your point but the loot balance must be very thought over to make it worthwhile.Guess it's decent if u put it that way,constant income with a chance of a jackpot that increases with friends
Well, chance of a jackpot regardless. Better chance of a jackpot with friends.
Hope you trust your friends. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2508
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:38:00 -
[73] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Killua Zoldyeck wrote:
I hope this is a bug, no NPC should spawn ever. If I fail to hack a can, my punishment is that the can loot is lost forever, not that a NPC comes and forces me to leave the site forever as I'm not able to kill it with a covert ops.
Doesn't seem like a bug. If you fail a hack attempt once it spawns a single rat, if you fail it twice the can blows up. Which the blowing up part is cool. I don't mind the rats personally since it sets some bar especially in low-0.0 sites.
The cans should be empty by default. If you fail a hack, rats will spawn. |
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Sven Viko VIkolander
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:39:00 -
[74] - Quote
mynnna wrote:The whole point of the loot spew is that it encourages bringing friends. The loot you can grab on your own is balanced to be worth doing alone, or should be once the drop tables are finalized. You might even get lucky and snag one of the high value cans and get something like a faction tower BPC. Because of the way it's setup, you can bring friends and not decrease your overall income, and maybe even increase it, since more cans means more shots at those juicy ones. And, the design means that the friends have to be actual friends instead of just a second or third account as with so many other supposedly "social" activities in eve.
Because of this, if they were tuned for one person, you wouldn't be missing out on loot, because the extra loot you can't get on your own wouldn't be there in the first place.
I don't think anyone has failed to understand the point of loot spew. I think people have failed to understand how anyone designing it could imagine it would be enjoyable in the first place... The one nice thing about the scanning changes is that it is an overall reduction in needless clicking, yet we get far more clicking introduced into the system with the mini-game and with the loot spew, and that's part of the problem with it.
One thing I do like about the mini-game, unlike some, is that it forces a bit of a trade off between security (via dscan) and efficiency in the hacking game. Currently, explorers are almost perfectly safe in space, insofar as they can spam short-range d-scan every few seconds and see if any threats are in warp while not in any way limiting their isk efficiency. The hacking game in low sec so far seems like it requires more concentration. I'd like it to require even more critical thought, so that players have to think hard about trade-offs during the game, some of which involve security versus efficiency.
|
Killua Zoldyeck
Jump Zero
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:43:00 -
[75] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Did run 3 low sec guristas relic sites: Rat spawns are easy enough to run the sites in cov ops frig.
I'm not sure how can you take down a Cruiser with an unarmed Covert Ops? Care to share your fit/ship?
With a Buzzard I can't fit a Light Missile Luncher but even If I could do that, I'm not very convinced that 12 dps will kill the cruiser before it kills me with no tank.
Let's say I train for the Helios that has the single drone. That will be 29 dps (can't fit a gun or I wouldn't be able to fit a Probe Launcher and Covert Ops Cloak, so that's the best it can do).
In my eyes a single cruiser means I have to leave the site forever (I'm talking about low sec roaming so it's not really an option to switch to a combat ship. Also, switching to a combat ship it's not what an explorer should do in the expansion that promises to remove NPCs because "exploration is not about shooting at red crosses").
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1178
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:43:00 -
[76] - Quote
Well if people don't like the loot spew, that's another matter.
But a fair number of the complaints I've seen have been essentially, "but I want to get ALL the loot why can't I get all the loot", which sort of indicates a missing of the point of the loot spew. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2508
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:43:00 -
[77] - Quote
Mario delTorres wrote:I think the ammount of spammed cans should be reduced. I just found guritas data site in lowsec. There was 3 data cans. When I've scaned them with cargo scanner: I've got: first and second has only 1 decryptor, third has 1 decryptor and about 40 datainterfaces parts. How many containters are spawned after successful hack? 15? 20? I wasn't count. But if it is 20 there is only 5% chance to catch this one with good loot. Inside other 95% are data sheets, small parts and so on.
Relic sites has a little better. Inside cans are 2-3 kinds of loot, the chance is then better. The best is in nullsec when is 5-6 types of loot in one can.
It should be repaired. I have 2 ideas: 1. An amount of containters spawned after succesful analyzinn should be based on amount of proper loot. 2. As told ew posts above.There shouldn't be worthless loot (data sheet etc), but in every spawned containter should be loot worth of sale. Let it be 1 or 2 cheapest exploration/salvage parts but let it be useful.
I'll have to check tomorrow, but I think they're being reduced by 50%, to 12 as far as I remember. Like I said, I'll check at work tomorrow and post. |
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1048
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:44:00 -
[78] - Quote
mynnna wrote:sXyphos wrote:I see your point but the loot balance must be very thought over to make it worthwhile.Guess it's decent if u put it that way,constant income with a chance of a jackpot that increases with friends Well, chance of a jackpot regardless. Better chance of a jackpot with friends. Hope you trust your friends. Trusting friends is part of the reason that exploration has been mostly a solo gig. The chance for a jackpot is all well and good, but the loot table right now is so crappy a single person cannot make any isk, and we were told a solo explorer should make out with about the same amount if not a little more as currently. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1178
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:47:00 -
[79] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:mynnna wrote:sXyphos wrote:I see your point but the loot balance must be very thought over to make it worthwhile.Guess it's decent if u put it that way,constant income with a chance of a jackpot that increases with friends Well, chance of a jackpot regardless. Better chance of a jackpot with friends. Hope you trust your friends. Trusting friends is part of the reason that exploration has been mostly a solo gig. The chance for a jackpot is all well and good, but the loot table right now is so crappy a single person cannot make any isk, and we were told a solo explorer should make out with about the same amount if not a little more as currently.
True. Fortunately it's been said in this thread that they're going back over the loot tables now. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2508
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:48:00 -
[80] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:mynnna wrote:sXyphos wrote:I see your point but the loot balance must be very thought over to make it worthwhile.Guess it's decent if u put it that way,constant income with a chance of a jackpot that increases with friends Well, chance of a jackpot regardless. Better chance of a jackpot with friends. Hope you trust your friends. Trusting friends is part of the reason that exploration has been mostly a solo gig. The chance for a jackpot is all well and good, but the loot table right now is so crappy a single person cannot make any isk, and we were told a solo explorer should make out with about the same amount if not a little more as currently.
Loot table was doubled and more items were added (cap rigs, faction towers etc). It's more valuable than current TQ. |
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3413
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:51:00 -
[81] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:(the faction towers are back in)
HALLELUJAH!
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:13:00 -
[82] - Quote
I did a couple Serpentis data and relic sites in highsec and lowsec and a data site in a C3 WH. My coherency was 90, my strength 20. There were a total of 14 easy debris cans, 11 medium rubble cans (WH cans were of this difficulty) and 1 hard remains can. I never had any trouble with the easy cans, I lost the minigame for 1 medium and 1 hard can, but succeeded on 2nd try for both. I usually managed to pick up maybe a bit less than half of the spew cans unless there were bugs as mentioned below.
The Good
- The minigame as such is alright, it could use a bit more fleshing out as in more different defences and utilities, but it's fun as it is. The balancing seems mostly ok too, though a bit of fine-tuning might be needed.
The Bad
- Anti-Virus Suppressors are too hard. The only way I could destroy them is using 2 utilities on them. I think they should at least die to 1 Secondary Vector used for the full 3 turns.
- The loot spewing mechanic is simply no fun at all. Twitchy dexterity gameplay + inherently laggy MMO environment = frustrating and annoying player experience.
- The loot was pretty horrible for all the sites, I barely got any of the regular items. I think out of the 14 easy containers I got exactly 1 spew can of regular loot. Also filling up my cargo with useless junk gets old really quick, how about making the useless cans just empty?
- Remove Small Arms from the loot table. Never try to sneak surprise contraband into my cargo! I mean it!
The Ugly (Bugs)
- Sometimes the colouring of the loot cans doesn't work and they just stay white for a minute or so till they suddenly get coloured. This makes the timing of tractoring very hard.
- Sometimes the tractoring of loot cans doesn't work even though the can was green when I clicked it, might be that this happens when the cans are at the edge of max range, so possibly lag related.
- With 3 Anti-Virus Suppressors on the field I managed to destroy one of them using 2 Secondary Vectors and my strength went back to full 20 even though the other 2 Suppressors were still active.
- Firewall description claims it has high strength, Anti-Virus description claims it has high coherency. It's actually the other way round.
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1049
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:17:00 -
[83] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:mynnna wrote:sXyphos wrote:I see your point but the loot balance must be very thought over to make it worthwhile.Guess it's decent if u put it that way,constant income with a chance of a jackpot that increases with friends Well, chance of a jackpot regardless. Better chance of a jackpot with friends. Hope you trust your friends. Trusting friends is part of the reason that exploration has been mostly a solo gig. The chance for a jackpot is all well and good, but the loot table right now is so crappy a single person cannot make any isk, and we were told a solo explorer should make out with about the same amount if not a little more as currently. Loot table was doubled and more items were added (cap rigs, faction towers etc). It's more valuable than current TQ. Am I doing something wrong then? All I ever seem to get is data sheets, scrap metal, small arms, and electronic parts. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2509
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:19:00 -
[84] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:mynnna wrote:sXyphos wrote:I see your point but the loot balance must be very thought over to make it worthwhile.Guess it's decent if u put it that way,constant income with a chance of a jackpot that increases with friends Well, chance of a jackpot regardless. Better chance of a jackpot with friends. Hope you trust your friends. Trusting friends is part of the reason that exploration has been mostly a solo gig. The chance for a jackpot is all well and good, but the loot table right now is so crappy a single person cannot make any isk, and we were told a solo explorer should make out with about the same amount if not a little more as currently. Loot table was doubled and more items were added (cap rigs, faction towers etc). It's more valuable than current TQ. Am I doing something wrong then? All I ever seem to get is data sheets, scrap metal, small arms, and electronic parts.
Might be a product of us having 2x the number of cans intended. There should be a Sisi update tomorrow and it should be adressed. Also, there is a scheme to the loot containers (based on name) which should help you once you get that down. |
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1049
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:27:00 -
[85] - Quote
I will definitely try some more tomorrow and post my results. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
123
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:33:00 -
[86] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Dax Buchanan wrote:There was a lot of negativity expressed towards the scatter mechanic, the difficulty / player skill required for the hacking game and the loot (ie: junk) released in this thread Has this been addressed? We've reduced the number of cans and are looking at loot table again. In general though, the scattering and picking up of cans remains.
Can you allow them to have regular jet can mechanics then, stays in space for 1-2 hours Oderint Dum Metuant |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:38:00 -
[87] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report and added to the known problems in the OP.
Does this mean the site can no longer be escalated? James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:40:00 -
[88] - Quote
Killua Zoldyeck wrote:Johan Toralen wrote:Did run 3 low sec guristas relic sites: Rat spawns are easy enough to run the sites in cov ops frig. I'm not sure how can you take down a Cruiser with an unarmed Covert Ops? Care to share your fit/ship?
You are right. I confused it with t1 frig. |
Killua Zoldyeck
Jump Zero
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:44:00 -
[89] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Killua Zoldyeck wrote:Johan Toralen wrote:Did run 3 low sec guristas relic sites: Rat spawns are easy enough to run the sites in cov ops frig. I'm not sure how can you take down a Cruiser with an unarmed Covert Ops? Care to share your fit/ship? You are right. I confused it with t1 frig.
I see :) Well, that's ok I guess. But exploring in Low Sec would be best in a Covert Ops, so I'd really love if CCP could remove the NPC spawns at least from low sec. I'm perfectly fine to be punished if I fail the minigame. Just destroy the can if I fail. I'll try with the others can. But an NPC spawn would mean that I lose the entire site and I think it's a bit too punishing. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
828
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:48:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote: Have you played it after Sisi was deployed today? We've doubled the loot in each site (to account for cans you don't get), added new types (the faction towers are back in) and cut the number of cans in half. This should be in much better shape now (if it's not, we'll continue making changes of course).
WHOA
faction pos mod bpcs too? :happysun: |
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Hathrul
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
243
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:16:00 -
[91] - Quote
AutumnWind1983 wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report and added to the known problems in the OP. Does this mean the site can no longer be escalated?
you really remove rats from wh radar mag? is this supposed to give us more isk, or to kill prices on t3? it seems rather....odd either way. basically, i dont see any way this is a good idea. but then....there are many not so good idea's comming it seems |
chris elliot
EG CORP Talocan United
171
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:24:00 -
[92] - Quote
Hathrul wrote:AutumnWind1983 wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report and added to the known problems in the OP. Does this mean the site can no longer be escalated? you really remove rats from wh radar mag? is this supposed to give us more isk, or to kill prices on t3? it seems rather....odd either way. basically, i dont see any way this is a good idea. but then....there are many not so good idea's comming it seems
Given how much foozie and whoeverelse is doing the balancing has been saying they are going to nerf the sht out of t3s they could at least make them cheaper.
If my billion isk ship is only as good as a 500 mill ship, it behoves one to make the ship actually cost 500 mill. Otherwise you'll wind up turning them into miniature revenants. i.e really pretty to look at but useless as hell and expensive as hell too. |
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
130
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:27:00 -
[93] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Loot table was doubled and more items were added (cap rigs, faction towers etc). It's more valuable than current TQ.
I hope we primarily have sensible cap rig BPC's - I still have large Hacking, Warp Speed and Archaeology BPCs. Many of the cap rigs will be useless.
And, as for the faction towers, will this include reseeding of faction POS mods while you're at it?
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Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:44:00 -
[94] - Quote
Guristas Data Fortress still has colission issues. I suspect the destroyed station prop is wrapped in a single concave collision hull which causes the problem. See pic for what i'm talking about:
http://i.imgur.com/t3YXqj2.jpg
I got from the site one Esoteric Process otherwise only worthless crap.
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
400
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 00:02:00 -
[95] - Quote
Removing sleepers from Relic and Data sites is the most stupid thing you've done so far since... well, releasing the new launcher. Okay that's a bad example.
... Anyway !
Not only wormholes have been furiously ignored during all these years, but now you are removing content from it ? It looks like you are trying to destroy Apocrypha to make your new little gadgets more valuable than they are. You are trying to nerf wormhole income in a pitiful effort to reduce its inhabitants, effectively weakening wormhole's voice.
The ironic part here is that Odyssey is using wormhole space to illustrate itself in the feature page. Good job, really.
Fasten your seatbelts, new useless expansion incoming !
PS : By the way, as you have removed the only clear identification of new expansions, aka themed login-screen, people won't even notice that a new expansion is out. All the changes in odyssey are just small shiny useless things expectable from a patch, and renaming Magnetometric and Radar sites won't change that. G££ <= Me |
Chitsa Jason
Infinity Explorers Exhale.
522
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 00:45:00 -
[96] - Quote
Removing sleepers from Radars and Mags in wspace is not a good idea without adding additional content to them. It is going to be just to easy right now to collect hacking loot meaning the prices will drop and noone will go to those sites anyway. Chitsa Jason for CSM 8 Twitter:-á@ChitsaJason Skype: Casparas
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1049
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:02:00 -
[97] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:Removing sleepers from Radars and Mags in wspace is not a good idea without adding additional content to them. It is going to be just to easy right now to collect hacking loot meaning the prices will drop and noone will go to those sites anyway. It is a great change, it allows people to slip into W-space and run a couple of those sites and make a bit of isk. It maybe true it will caus the value of those sites to drop but that will coincide with the T3 nerf we will soon see. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Shade Millith
I'm Really Bored
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:11:00 -
[98] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Chitsa Jason wrote:Removing sleepers from Radars and Mags in wspace is not a good idea without adding additional content to them. It is going to be just to easy right now to collect hacking loot meaning the prices will drop and noone will go to those sites anyway. It is a great change, it allows people to slip into W-space and run a couple of those sites and make a bit of isk. It maybe true it will caus the value of those sites to drop but that will coincide with the T3 nerf we will soon see.
Yeah, because people are just SUPPOSED to slip in and out of C5's and C6's, pick up easy to grab loot, and trundle off back into empire after a few hours! /s
It's MEANT to be simple and easy! /s
Worm Holes are supposed to be difficult. They're supposed to have a high barrier of entry. They're supposed to be scary.
This is just making it too easy.
Put the Sleepers back in WH space. This is a stupid change that just doesn't make sense.
Hell, the whole thing is just going to devalue everything Wormhole and non-Wormhole, and make it pretty worthless. This is a pretty daft change all around. |
Zelarrs Elkoth
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:17:00 -
[99] - Quote
mynnna wrote:The whole point of the loot spew is that it encourages bringing friends. The loot you can grab on your own is balanced to be worth doing alone, or should be once the drop tables are finalized. You might even get lucky and snag one of the high value cans and get something like a faction tower BPC. Because of the way it's setup, you can bring friends and not decrease your overall income, and maybe even increase it, since more cans means more shots at those juicy ones. And, the design means that the friends have to be actual friends instead of just a second or third account as with so many other supposedly "social" activities in eve.
Because of this, if they were tuned for one person, you wouldn't be missing out on loot, because the extra loot you can't get on your own wouldn't be there in the first place.
As I was saying on last week's Space Hangout with Ali:
The idea of balancing it so that friends working together can be rewarded is a good one.
The feedback we are getting here is that the execution is annoying.
Imagine doing this over and over as a career.
I don't see it happening.
This execution will likely drive existing explorers out of the profession and become a curiosity only, as I don't see it as likely that many will choose this as their primary activity.
Making the exploration focused Odyssey likely to be the expansion that kills exploration as a profession. Surely this is not intended?
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iskflakes
460
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:17:00 -
[100] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:Removing sleepers from Radars and Mags in wspace is not a good idea without adding additional content to them. It is going to be just to easy right now to collect hacking loot meaning the prices will drop and noone will go to those sites anyway.
I also think this is a bad idea. Many people depend on the income from those sites via capital escalations. If you have to remove the rats can you keep the capital escalation feature, so we can warp some capitals in to trigger spawns to kill? (or deliberately fail the hacking to spawn some rats to kill?) . Removing the ability to capital escalate radar/mag sites means less content for people who PVP in wormholes too. - |
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Dax Buchanan
Straya. Scrapyard.
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:17:00 -
[101] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:
All in all i think these sites could be much more enjoyable if they were centered around the hacking game not the loot spewing. My idea would be to have in each hacking game not just a system core but also a node that leads one level deeper in the security system. So player can choose between hacking the core or consider to to take a risk and go deeper with remaining virus strenght to find even better loot. And then should this fail the loot spews as punishment and rats spawn.
This
It uses the same tools so little redevelopment and will lead to much more enjoyable experience. |
Heinel Coventina
University of Caille Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:23:00 -
[102] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:Removing sleepers from Radars and Mags in wspace is not a good idea without adding additional content to them. It is going to be just to easy right now to collect hacking loot meaning the prices will drop and noone will go to those sites anyway.
If you want to kill NPCs, just go to anomalies.
In order for hacking and archaeology to be a viable profession, it needs to be applicable to a wide variety of environments. Instead of crying about changes to places you don't go to anyway, take a step back and look at the big picture. If they are successful in pushing the explorer profession to the forefront, low and null will become a lot more target-rich in terms of pvp and ganking opportunities, and the targets will actually be carrying valuable stuff too. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1049
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:31:00 -
[103] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Chitsa Jason wrote:Removing sleepers from Radars and Mags in wspace is not a good idea without adding additional content to them. It is going to be just to easy right now to collect hacking loot meaning the prices will drop and noone will go to those sites anyway. It is a great change, it allows people to slip into W-space and run a couple of those sites and make a bit of isk. It maybe true it will caus the value of those sites to drop but that will coincide with the T3 nerf we will soon see. Yeah, because people are just SUPPOSED to slip in and out of C5's and C6's, pick up easy to grab loot, and trundle off back into empire after a few hours! /s I can with confidence say, Yes they are supposed be slipped in and out of and head home after a few hours. CCP stated during fanfest that they never really intended for WH to be lived in. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Akyla Dey
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:33:00 -
[104] - Quote
+1 for Sleepers staying in Wspace profession sites. We'll do the hacking game, we'll put up with the silly scanning changes. Just don't take the little content we have away. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:37:00 -
[105] - Quote
right now the loot is so bad that I see no reason to ever do one of the sites ever right now on tq I get about 2-6 decryptors per I think the minigame is ok albeit a bit too hard with low skills the can spewing is probably gets harder the small your screen is and then worse your pc and even on my wide screen desktop I find that the cans spread a bit too quickly the time required to do them has increased by probably 10 times per can as well which makes it even worse that the loot is crap if it stays like that decryptors are going to be hardly used cause their price will be in the 50-500 mil range and that will reflect in the price of t2 Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Kalot Sakaar
CragCO
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:41:00 -
[106] - Quote
Not understanding where this is all going or what CCP is hoping to do....
1. Anyone with very minimal sp investment and in relatively cheap ships can go anywhere and run these sites now, even in WH space/null sec. And they will. Where is the progression? The ever increasingly difficult rats meant that you have to invest training time and bring more capable ships to run the harder and more lucrative sites. Now where is the incentive to progress? There is none. Low risk, high potential reward. But no progression or reward for those who have invested the time to specialize in this activity. Of course, the more I think about it, we'll just have more interdiction nullified/cloaky T3's flying around doing this with little to no risk of getting caught. (which can be trained into fairly quickly if your not doing hard core PvP or PVE with, just travelling around playing a mini game completely divorced and counter to the rest of this game.) A mini-game which in my opinion stands completely at odds with the core fundamentals of this game. (ie risk vs reward)
2. There is really no incentive to do this with friends...who cares if some cans get away. The ease of doing this and the ability to quickly move with little risk just means blitz as many sites as you can and since there are no rats, just solo any site even in a C5 in your Helios. RIDICULOUS.
2. Anyone excited about this change as a new player thinking "ohhh, now I can go farm all that empty care bear null sec and WH's for sites and I'll be rich"... think again. With it being so easy now, prices on all this stuff will just tank as supply goes through the roof. (there will be a brief period of hey day but not long I think.)
3. So these sites are getting these great loot tables I see, but the really hard DED sites and unrated which require much more effort, risk, often times team work are not being looked at? Where is the risk/reward curve here? This kind of reminds me when incursions came out and you could just make stupid isk with little to no risk....
4. Played around on the test server. Found the novelty of the mini-game ok I guess...but I'll burn out on it after about a week I think. The twitch game can spew thing is.....terrible.
Recommendation:
You can't hack a site with a ship that has a cloak on it or is interdicted nullified and while your hacking your sig radius goes to 1500 so you can be found and killed as otherwise there is zero risk to this activity. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:44:00 -
[107] - Quote
Well to me it sounds tempting to do a couple wh sites when i find a lot of wh's anyway as a side product of exploration. In so far i'm not against the removal. Keep in mind sleepers still spawn when you fail the hacking so doing C5/C6 sites in a exploration frig is not gonna be an option for day trippers. As far as content goes arn't a couple more visitors for hunting down content too? Granted i don't know enough about life in WH's and all the repercusions. Perhaps a compromise can be found that everybody is happy with but then CCP doesn't seem to be in the mood for compromises lately... |
Verushka Atreides
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 01:59:00 -
[108] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report and added to the known problems in the OP.
Surely you are kidding?
Is the intent here to destroy the t3 market?
Are you trying to remove all PVE combat locations in wh space that require probes to be found? |
Kalot Sakaar
CragCO
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 02:05:00 -
[109] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Well to me it sounds tempting to do a couple wh sites when i find a lot of wh's anyway as a side product of exploration. In so far i'm not against the removal. Keep in mind sleepers still spawn when you fail the hacking so doing C5/C6 sites in a exploration frig is not gonna be an option for day trippers. As far as content goes arn't a couple more visitors for hunting down content too? Granted i don't know enough about life in WH's and all the repercusions. Perhaps a compromise can be found that everybody is happy with but then CCP doesn't seem to be in the mood for compromises lately...
I hear you. And that seems to be the thought process perhaps? But who knows because CCP isn't really explaining what they are trying to accomplish in my opinion....but you know that after a bit everyone will have this mini-game completely mastered and posted in their wiki's. Then the chance of failing a site will drop to zilch and you don't have to worry about rats. And who cares if you do fail a hack. You can still get out before the rat gets you. Where is the risk? NOW.. fail a hack and your ship is suddenly instantly scrammed, webbed, neuted and you DIE right then and there.... ya, now that would be EVE and then it would be cool.
I mean I thought with this expansion we would be getting cool new stuff to explore, new space, new types of sites, new rats, new something. The whole wonder of exploration they were talking about. Instead they just took a pretty good system and introduced a mini-game completely divorced from the rest of EVE that nullifies the whole point of skilling up and getting better and taking risk for big reward.
Overall too easy, to WOW, to meh
No sir, not seeing this as a positive step. |
Celia Therone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 02:07:00 -
[110] - Quote
mynnna wrote:The whole point of the loot spew is that it encourages bringing friends. The loot you can grab on your own is balanced to be worth doing alone, or should be once the drop tables are finalized. You might even get lucky and snag one of the high value cans and get something like a faction tower BPC. Because of the way it's setup, you can bring friends and not decrease your overall income, and maybe even increase it, since more cans means more shots at those juicy ones. And, the design means that the friends have to be actual friends instead of just a second or third account as with so many other supposedly "social" activities in eve.
Because of this, if they were tuned for one person, you wouldn't be missing out on loot, because the extra loot you can't get on your own wouldn't be there in the first place. It's great that you'e posting here, Mynna, our CSM representative hard at work.
As you seem so impressed with the game play of sitting around waiting for someone else to do something and then chasing some cans around for loot that you've done nothing to earn it occurred to me that we could use the same mechanic in farms and fields.
Simply make each Moon Harvester spew out 400 cans randomly once/hour. A player that's paying attention and sitting at the pos can grab 2 before they leave the pos shield, and 6 or so beyond the pos shield before they despawn. 300 of the cans will have junk in (eg N1 moon loot) and 100 will have the valuable moon resource. There, I just thought of engaging content that keeps fifty players occupied around the clock for each moon harvester.
Having the moon minerals leave the pos shields will encourage PvP and raiding for moon minerals, which will be even more interesting and interactive content.
I trust that you will champion this idea to CCP devs at every opportunity. |
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Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos Whores in space
143
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 02:17:00 -
[111] - Quote
Celia Therone wrote:mynnna wrote:The whole point of the loot spew is that it encourages bringing friends. The loot you can grab on your own is balanced to be worth doing alone, or should be once the drop tables are finalized. You might even get lucky and snag one of the high value cans and get something like a faction tower BPC. Because of the way it's setup, you can bring friends and not decrease your overall income, and maybe even increase it, since more cans means more shots at those juicy ones. And, the design means that the friends have to be actual friends instead of just a second or third account as with so many other supposedly "social" activities in eve.
Because of this, if they were tuned for one person, you wouldn't be missing out on loot, because the extra loot you can't get on your own wouldn't be there in the first place. It's great that you'e posting here, Mynna, our CSM representative hard at work. As you seem so impressed with the game play of sitting around waiting for someone else to do something and then chasing some cans around for loot that you've done nothing to earn it occurred to me that we could use the same mechanic in farms and fields. Simply make each Moon Harvester spew out 400 cans randomly once/hour. A player that's paying attention and sitting at the pos can grab 2 before they leave the pos shield, and 6 or so beyond the pos shield before they despawn. 300 of the cans will have junk in (eg N1 moon loot) and 100 will have the valuable moon resource. There, I just thought of engaging content that keeps fifty players occupied around the clock for each moon harvester. Having the moon minerals leave the pos shields will encourage PvP and raiding for moon minerals, which will be even more interesting and interactive content. I trust that you will champion this idea to CCP devs at every opportunity.
i love the pos idea! |
Kalot Sakaar
CragCO
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 02:18:00 -
[112] - Quote
Celia Therone wrote:It's great that you'e posting here, Mynna, our CSM representative hard at work. As you seem so impressed with the game play of sitting around waiting for someone else to do something and then chasing some cans around for loot that you've done nothing to earn it occurred to me that we could use the same mechanic in farms and fields. Simply make each Moon Harvester spew out 400 cans randomly once/hour. A player that's paying attention and sitting at the pos can grab 2 before they leave the pos shield, and 6 or so beyond the pos shield before they despawn. 300 of the cans will have junk in (eg N1 moon loot) and 100 will have the valuable moon resource. There, I just thought of engaging content that keeps fifty players occupied around the clock for each moon harvester. Having the moon minerals leave the pos shields will encourage PvP and raiding for moon minerals, which will be even more interesting and interactive content. I trust that you will champion this idea to CCP devs at every opportunity.
Oh, my god, that is funny.
|
Indo Nira
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
76
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 02:19:00 -
[113] - Quote
Celia Therone wrote:It's great that you'e posting here, Mynna, our CSM representative hard at work. As you seem so impressed with the game play of sitting around waiting for someone else to do something and then chasing some cans around for loot that you've done nothing to earn it occurred to me that we could use the same mechanic in farms and fields. Simply make each Moon Harvester spew out 400 cans randomly once/hour. A player that's paying attention and sitting at the pos can grab 2 before they leave the pos shield, and 6 or so beyond the pos shield before they despawn. 300 of the cans will have junk in (eg N1 moon loot) and 100 will have the valuable moon resource. There, I just thought of engaging content that keeps fifty players occupied around the clock for each moon harvester. Having the moon minerals leave the pos shields will encourage PvP and raiding for moon minerals, which will be even more interesting and interactive content. I trust that you will champion this idea to CCP devs at every opportunity.
i approve of this |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
34
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 02:28:00 -
[114] - Quote
Kalot Sakaar wrote:I hear you. And that seems to be the thought process perhaps? But who knows because CCP isn't really explaining what they are trying to accomplish in my opinion....but you know that after a bit everyone will have this mini-game completely mastered and posted in their wiki's. Then the chance of failing a site will drop to zilch and you don't have to worry about rats. And who cares if you do fail a hack. You can still get out before the rat gets you. Where is the risk? NOW.. fail a hack and your ship is suddenly instantly scrammed, webbed, neuted and you DIE right then and there.... ya, now that would be EVE and then it would be cool.
I think you are overdramatizing a bit. Professions sites never were as profitable as running combat sites even in hisec (talk about risk/reward). The loot drop is so bad right now we can be happy if it reaches similar numbers to the old sites come Odyssey. In so far it's not unreasonable that the sites are less dangerous then combat sites. But still you make it sound like there is no risk at all which isn't true. It's so easy now to scan down the sites (if you cant scan down the ship). Explorers will be busy with the damn cans instead of checking dscan and local. Also last time i checked you can't run the sites cloaked (regarding your recommendation how to fix it).
Quote:I mean I thought with this expansion we would be getting cool new stuff to explore, new space, new types of sites, new rats, new something. The whole wonder of exploration they were talking about. Instead they just took a pretty good system and introduced a mini-game completely divorced from the rest of EVE that nullifies the whole point of skilling up and getting better and taking risk for big reward.
Overall too easy, too WOW, too meh
No sir, not seeing this as a positive step.
Got to agree with you on that one. Pretty underwhelmed so far with all the changes and new stuff. The Effects are nice and all but i was hoping for new stuff that is actualy enjoyable to do and to look for "between the stars".
|
Ludi Burek
Toilet Emergency JIHADASQUAD
241
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 02:33:00 -
[115] - Quote
As a periodical binge explorer (going hard for a week or two) I am of opinion that loot explosion is worse than stationary "pick up loot from can" mechanic. My reason is not because I can't get all the loot but that twitchy game play where you chase stuff frantically, over and over and over and over again, is extremely annoying. It would take a special kind of nerd to enjoy this.
Also, being the "team mates" waiting for loot bukake while doing nothing except maybe spamming dscan appears to be super unexciting. I can't see myself bothering with these sites because of this annoying mechanic.
Please rethink this explosion business. |
Wenthrial Solamar
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 02:41:00 -
[116] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Well if people don't like the loot spew, that's another matter. But a fair number of the complaints I've seen have been essentially, "but I want to get ALL the loot why can't I get all the loot", which sort of indicates a missing of the point of the loot spew.
No, the main complaint is that: 1. you scan alone, 2. you hack alone. 3. You need friends to loot ?
This is broken design, implementation also has issues, but that is a distraction form the primary design flaw.
Design may be fixed, any number of ways, that have been discussed in this thread and others on the topic, but in order for the loot mechanic to fit, the principal the design needs to change so that: 1. You scan better with friends [ likely not possible, so must be compensated for in #2] 2. You Hack better with friends 3. Then you loot better with friends
With out that change to the basic principals involved in the game play, the looting mechanic is not a benefit to any one no matter how innovative it is and well implemented it may become.
edit: The value of the site's contents needs to reflect the effort involved... so if it is best found, and hacked alone ... even if it is not what the designers want , it is best looted alone, and the drop tables need to be adjusted to reflect that. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5146
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 02:57:00 -
[117] - Quote
Wenthrial Solamar wrote:No, the main complaint is that: 1. you scan alone, 2. you hack alone. 3. You need friends to loot ? No, you don't. Your blatant misunderstanding doesn't automatically mean the mechanic is broken. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Circumstantial Evidence
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 03:02:00 -
[118] - Quote
Highsec (.6) Local Angel Data Shipyard Was not able to scan this site down (got to 90%) using Zephyr and sister core probes, level 4 scanning skills, no implants. 5 hackable structures
After clickfesting through all 5, failing two hacks and blowing up two rat frigates, I felt good about getting 4 decryptors worth 26m (all) - about the best I've got from a highsec site.
Previously the rat(s) that spawned would "guard" the loot can, and required destruction to proceed. I was able to ignore the rat spawn: I reactivated the data analyzer and completed the puzzle, loot cans spewed and scooped.
Rats spawned have a new type, "MiniProfession Frigate / Cruiser / Battlecruiser" The new type needs to be checked by default, for the default-General overview.
Why a new type? Do they need a different Ai ? Ahh... they don't leave a wreck behind (that I can see.)
Self Repair utility: is text complete? "Using this utility element to increase the coherence of your virus by x" -Is 'x' a placeholder for a variable showing the amount of increase? "Using" -> "Use" (grammar tweak)
|
Shanis Vemane
Oldham Tinkers
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 03:07:00 -
[119] - Quote
Just been online testing the new explore stuff for the last few hours and have mixed thoughts. I think the new scanning system is much better, more streamlined and user friendly - certainly enough to make me reconsider a 'career' in exploration.
I didnt get round to trying out hacking but did a few relic sites (though from what I gather the mechanic is much the same).
The mini-game I found ok, though I can see how it could become a real drag after doing it for some time. The loot spewing, panic-click-stuck-on-debris-disappear-sad-face mechanic was frustrating at best. A suggestion here would be to increase the amount of time allowed to pick them up and/or slow the speed they fly off?
I get that the intention is for having multiple people picking them up but personally I like flying solo (particularly when doing something like exploration or missions) and cant help but feel penalised for choosing to do so. Furthermore the loot I actually got from the sites was very poor - I look forward to checking this again tomorrow following the loot rebalance though. The idea of the whole mini-game and loot chase thing isn't too bad - as others have pointed out it will make for some interesting changes to pvp as people will be forced to turn their attention away from the d-scan.
On the wormhole issue - I'm not really experienced enough to comment but from what knowledge I do have, I'd suggest leaving the rats there, as the better loot would warrant the increased risk/difficulty of the site not to mention the additional salvage/loot from the rat wrecks.
Anyway, just my 2p worth. Overall looking forward to Odyssey, really like the new more accessible, user friendly scanning, not so big on the loot bombs in their current form. |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 03:08:00 -
[120] - Quote
Wormholes debuted in March of 2009. Since then we've gotten no new content. This expansion promises to bring cans exploding loot out into space. Will this get extremely annoying in less than four years? Yes it will.
Also I'm still not clear how this counts as exploration. I'm not finding anything I wasn't finding before. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
|
Wenthrial Solamar
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 04:06:00 -
[121] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Wenthrial Solamar wrote:No, the main complaint is that: 1. you scan alone, 2. you hack alone. 3. You need friends to loot ? No, you don't. Your blatant misunderstanding doesn't automatically mean the mechanic is broken.
ok... Maby I need to spell this out in small words with an example:
Current TQ C5 Radar site: 1. Scan down ( solo ) 2. Bring fleet ( Logi, DPS, Capitols, pickets, you know lots of real players ), kill sleepers 3. Loot Combat wrecks... more real players in dedicated ships. 4. hack and Loot Cans ( one guy in a CovOps ) 5. Go home.
New Sisi C5 Radar Site: 1. Scan down ( solo ) 2. Hack ( solo ) 3. Loot , Maybe bring a friend ? maybe let some loot go and get the same as #4 above . 4. go home.
Now I don't care if that is the intended outcome of the design change, but since the stated Purpose of the Loot explosion was to get you to bring more people ( not alts ) with you to the site, I think it is a flawed design.
Even compare it with a Combat site in k-space: 1. scan down with On board scanner ( solo , no benefit to having friends along ) 2. Go kill stuff, If you can solo the site, you still can do it faster with a second player helping, so there is a clear reason to group up even if you do not. 3. Loot / salvage ... here again, you can choose to go it alone, use an alt, or just take the bounty, but if you do bring a second player you there is a clear reason for it since they can fly a dedicated salvage boat. 4. Find next site, since the Number of sites is High, a group completing them faster ( should ) be more profit for all.
Now clearly the advantage of forming a fleet for combat sites is too low since we do not see roaming fleets of players running Anom's, but the design of why you would want to have more people along and be social about things is not to hard to see, most steps int he process are better done with a group, at least in theory.
The new Radar/Mag sites do not have the same flow to them, only at one step is it useful to have a second player involved, and given the design aiming to have the solo loot be about the same as it is today, there is not a clear benefit to the new system except for the a corner case: In which I already bring a friend allong on exploration roams to be social, there is now an opportunity in game for that second person to provide more than just company on com's.
So we go back to, the design has a problem; or more distinctly it is solving a problem that does not exist. Having taken the Rat's out of the sites, they are now well suited to solo play; and the rewards for solo play will be about the same as they are today, except you will not have to reship or use an alt. But There is an added feature that seems to be out in left field that says " If you fleet you will make more ", so now we want to being along a friend, that is real not an alt... but they have little or nothing to do for most of the time, while I scan, and hack solo, in game play that gains nothing from a fleet.
And to top it off, one of the places that Radar/Mag sites are best run in fleets, W-space, this change converts them to a good solo activity.
The Details of HOW the new mechanic were implemented are separate from the design issue IMHO, I can love or hate the loot explosion, and Mini game with out the design issue as I see it changing. If the Goal is to make a fleet for exploration, then all, or at least most of the steps involved in the exploration process need to reward being in a fleet.
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5146
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 04:12:00 -
[122] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:I felt good about getting 4 decryptors worth 26m (all) - about the best I've got from a highsec site. It wouldn't be CCP without them making highsec more lucrative than low or null. Seriously, out of all the exploration sites I've done on sisi none of them have made anywhere near that much. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
155
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 04:13:00 -
[123] - Quote
Ok.... So got Singularity all set up and gave this new Exploration thing a shot. Not to put too fine a line on it but.... this is a f-ing piece of crap, man. I'm sorry. I know you guys put alot of effort into this, but it's just not good. Granted, some of the massive dislike is from the loot which you are intending to change. And once you do, I'll give it another shot. But there are a few other things....
Loot Bukkake - It's here to stay and you are fully committed to it. I get that. Took a couple structures to figure things out. Ignore the Scraps. Try to focus on the Data cans. Grab Parts and Materials while looking for the Data. But like many have already said, the icons are just too damn small. So it's an utter biatch trying to figure out where the good stuff is. And that's not "utter biatch" as in "wow this is challenging!". It's as in "this seriously sucks dude". The problem of the small icons is compounded by the sheer number of them - again, something you said you are looking into. Also, there were numerous times when I clicked on a Green bracketed can that was most definitely within range and it did not tractor. Which throws off the timing, which is essential in this twitch-based feature. Possibly it was lag induced by the stacked clouds/structures, or possibly a misclick due to too small an icon. And then let's add in camera auto-focus (even though I have it clicked off, it still seems trigger in the sites) which throws things off. Plus the cans not being affected by a tractor beam module. Kinda sucked all around.
Furthermore, the loot spew seems to go in opposite directions - usually up and down, but probably depends on the orientation of the structure since it did go sideways a few times. But it's difficult to determine since everything is stacked right on top of each other (I'm sure that seemed like a good idea at the time). Amusingly enough, chasing the cans appears to be the worst choice. Looks like it is best to position yourself 3-5km above or below (or in-line with the spew axis) and let the cans come to you, picking off the good ones as they pass. So you are pretty much stationary the entire time in the site. Not very exciting or dynamic, and terribly terribly vulnerable. Fortunately, you can hit cloak as soon as you start hacking, but you have to uncloak to grab the loot. So still pretty risky.
The Minigame - Have the feeling it's gonna get real old, real quick. Worst part by far is the Virus Suppressors. They reduce Virus strength by a crippling amount (-20 in the lowsec sites I was in). Might wanna take a serious look at those. Like maybe make them -5 but with increased Coherence, so it'll take awhile to beat them down - or you can take the chance of bypassing it and hoping you don't run into anymore. But those things definitely need to get fixed.
As stated by others before, being able to preload utilities would be rather handy. Not to mention getting them as loot. And a few more choices in Analyzers would be nice too - stuff with different specs (strength/coherence/slots). Yeah yeah, I know, you want feedback on how it is NOW, not what you can add later. But the thing is, this stuff needs to be added NOW. Cuz the Hacking is just too limited, too boring, and sucks too hard as you currently have it. It's structured off of random chance and the player currently has NO method mitigating or controlling the situation - not very sandboxy.
Conclusion - All in all, I am rather negatively impressed by the changes you have made. It changes hi-sec exploration from a relaxing pastime to an aggravating random matching of stats which I cannot really affect, followed by a precision twitch-a-thon in which the most valuable items tend to be Metal Scraps (seriously, they sell for more than Data Sheets or Small Arms - plus they don't inspire Customs officials to shoot you). Unless some fairly serious changes are made to this system, I'm gonna give up on exploration. It's just not fun, and I feel I have no control or effect on it. Hell, I'd rather go mining - at the keyboard, mindnumbingly watching the lasers - than do this form of exploration. And lowsec exploration seems just far too risky with the new scan overview and ease of probing, along with the extended length of time in the site with limited scope of movement - just not good. What's funny is that L4 missions would be safer, cuz at least the rats will switch targets there and you don't have a giant overview beacon that says "SCAN HERE". |
Toddfish
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 04:38:00 -
[124] - Quote
Hacking/Relic "mini-game" doesn't seem to have any direction, just mindless clicking until you find the core. Having a clear goal from the beginning would give me a reason to attempt to go through the firewalls... rather than around them. Or maybe something telling me "you're getting warmer"?
Antivirus = fail... even with maxed skills (T2 mods and a rig). The impact seems a bit too extreme. Tried going around it once (finesse approach rather than brute force), but hit 3 (!) more of them completely killing any chance of doing anything (virus strength was down to 1). If there's no chance to defeat or work-around the Antivirus, it just seems like a pointless mechanic to frustrate people.
When failing a hacking attempt a rat spawned, making my covert ops scanning/analyzing ship completely useless. If I have to fight rats, I'll need a combat ship, so might as well have rats on the initial warp-in. The dream of having an all-in-one scanning/analyzing cov-ops ship (that's what they're for right?) seems far-off.
Loot scattering is not fun:
- Cans are too small and difficult to see/click; and I'm using a mouse with a large monitor (I can only imagine it on my laptop with a trackpad). Green ones are hard to see, Yellow are worse, and white ones just blend-in with the stars.
- Trying to maneuver a ship to get near the items as they scatter is very difficult. Miss-clicking on an item in the background (like an an asteroid or another piece of debris) changes the camera position... making collecting the items even more frustrating.
- While I started to get better the more I did it, I never felt like I was having fun... it always seemed like a mechanic that was implemented to turn the loot (the fun/exciting part of sites like this) into a chore.
After analyzing an object I couldn't find a way to show (on the overview) that an item had been hacked. With the previous cans they showed that they had been opened (became greyed out) making keeping track of things easier. Having a "Mark can as viewed" option would be nice.
Sounds like there are a few bugs, improvements, and updates in the works... and I look forward to trying them. Right now I'm not a fan of the loot scatter one bit, but maybe the loot tables will make it worth the frustration.
|
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
402
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 07:43:00 -
[125] - Quote
CCP, let's try to focus on what is making EVE FUN, and why people keep playing it... And it is clearly not because you have to clic little things in space before they dissapear.
EVE is about stories, it is about giving us the tools for having adventures.
Removing the difficulty from spots does not go in the right direction for this goal. Nor trying to make looting "less passive".
You are trying to transform EVE in something that it is not supposed to be. And that's not only bad, but also suicidal on the long term. G££ <= Me |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
402
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 07:46:00 -
[126] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:Removing sleepers from Radars and Mags in wspace is not a good idea without adding additional content to them. It is going to be just to easy right now to collect hacking loot meaning the prices will drop and noone will go to those sites anyway.
This. Think about some Ladar sites. G££ <= Me |
Swidgen
Republic University Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 07:57:00 -
[127] - Quote
I wasn't going to say anything since I don't have anything good to say.... but this is awful. Simply awful. |
Heinel Coventina
University of Caille Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 08:18:00 -
[128] - Quote
Wenthrial Solamar wrote:
New Sisi C5 Radar Site: 1. Scan down ( solo ) 2. Hack ( 1 person using the interface ) 2.5 Spam D-scan ( lern2 friend ) 3. Loot (group) 4. go home.
FTFY |
Xer Jin
DIVERGENT PROXY
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 08:32:00 -
[129] - Quote
this whole thead is filled with "this sucks ccp" and i don't see anyone from ccp saying "hmmm players might be right" get ready to have some monuments shot at again ccp |
Meghel
SilfMeg Mining and Transportation Co
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 08:57:00 -
[130] - Quote
Xer Jin wrote:this whole thead is filled with "this sucks ccp" and i don't see anyone from ccp saying "hmmm players might be right" get ready to have some monuments shot at again ccp
The feedback here is most constructive. Some is indeed "This sucks CCP" but I would be very surprised if this feedback is not acted upon.
From the current feedback it is quite clearly that the new system does not work well and players dislike it immensely.
CCP should either introduce changes soon or shelve it for the future. |
|
Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 09:06:00 -
[131] - Quote
The mini game is ok. It's certainly more entertaining then click and wait.
The can spawn mechanism is horrible. Chasing cans, bumping into objects, clicking, clicking and more clicking only to have the cans vanish before your eyes. If I wanted to play a dexterity based clickfest, there are better ones out there. I'm colorblind. The colors on those cans are very hard for me to distinguish. Thanks for punishing me for being colorblind.
Seriously, CCP, this is not fun, it's frustrating. I do not like to play games that are frustrating. I realize that you still think this loot pinata is a good thing, but please, read this tread. There is nobody that likes it. Don't be stubborn, don't be stupid. Put away your pride. Don't implement a feature nobody likes. It would be a huge mistake. Seriously! |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
403
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 09:34:00 -
[132] - Quote
Why do you think other MMOs NEVER tried to make mining more interesting than right clic => wait => profit ?
Because they realized that no matter how much time you try to create something interesting, as it is a repetitive task, it WILL become boring three days after release of the feature.
Trying to create a "miningame" is just a waste of developpement time, ressources, and so on. Just to give you an example, I'm pretty sure that this time could have been invested into fixing Fps-killer clouds, improving the gameplay by adding a third type of exploration site with materials for player-created clone, and so on...
First day after release, people will enjoy the minigame. Second day, they will understand how it works and start to master it. Third day, they will be bored.
Do you remember CCP ? EVE is not about developpers having to perpetually create new consumable content, it is about creating tools to let us enjoy the sandbox. So please, focus. FOCUS, damit ! G££ <= Me |
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 09:37:00 -
[133] - Quote
I have tested some site. I have very happy with the new probing system, and hacking systems, nice work .
But, i am not sure about the ejection can will be a great idea.
My machine was a little laggy (old machine and bad connection).
It's was a nightmare for me to try to take the can when they will be ejected.
The player need to have the same chance to loot some stuff ( and now it's not the case).
Pls CCP remove the ejection can.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
461
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 10:06:00 -
[134] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Why do you think other MMOs NEVER tried to make mining more interesting than right clic => wait => profit ?
Because they realized that no matter how much time you try to create something interesting, as it is a repetitive task, it WILL become boring three days after release of the feature.
Trying to create a "miningame" is just a waste of developpement time, ressources, and so on. Just to give you an example, I'm pretty sure that this time could have been invested into fixing Fps-killer clouds, improving the gameplay by adding a third type of exploration site with materials for player-created clone, and so on...
First day after release, people will enjoy the minigame. Second day, they will understand how it works and start to master it. Third day, they will be bored.
Do you remember CCP ? EVE is not about developpers having to perpetually create new consumable content, it is about creating tools to let us enjoy the sandbox. So please, focus. FOCUS, damit ! Wrong. Create enough of this content, each piece of it with decent replayability, and players can spend a long time on it until they get bored, then stop doing it for a while and then in many cases occasionally return to it and enjoy it again.
Every single-player game ever created is in the end repetitive, yet most people like playing such games. Chess is repetitive; while every game is slightly different, the variation is very low. Yet people have been playing it for 500 years and many people play it all their life.
Also, adding a little actual content to EVE does not take away your ability to ignore this content and just play in the sandbox in any way. A sandbox with a few shiny toys in it is more interesting than a sandbox with only other fat ugly kids in it, even if beating up those other kids is still the best part of the sandbox.
In fact you have it backwards: If we are supposed to engange in an activity again and again and again to earn ISK, it *must* offer at least some variation and require a little concentration and thinking. A task we have to perform repeatedly should never be 100% the same time after time after time.
Quote: improving the gameplay by adding a third type of exploration site with materials for player-created clone, and so on... Pretty telling quote... you hate content that requires attention and thinking, but would consider the addition of another type of site that functions exactly as the brain-dead stuff already in the game, only with a different label on the cans in it, an "improvement of gameplay". . |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 10:14:00 -
[135] - Quote
So far i read the whole thread, and yeah... seems like CCP is going to try smash its head through the wall here, they called Odyssey the "Exploration Expansion", but the most important thing, exploration, is broken, and there are only two weeks left.
Maybe CCP could be honest to us. They could tell us now, that they realised how broken this new system is at the moment, and that they won't release Odyssey in two weeks. I would rather wait one or two more month for a good expansion then getting a crappy one in two weeks.
It's good that they are asking for our feedback and fixing problems in detail right now, but as written in a lot of comments in this thread there are major problems with the new sites which i can't see disappearing in the next two weeks.
Please CCP: Dont release this system in the current state. We understand that you thought about it as a good idea, but it is not. Go back to the drawing board, and think about how getting hacking as a profession in EVE on the right track (PvE AND PvP!). Give us high-resolutions textures instead in two weeks, we will be satisfied then i think. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
403
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 10:25:00 -
[136] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote: Also, adding a little actual content to EVE does not take away your ability to ignore this content and just play in the sandbox in any way.
The problem here is that they don't "add" new sites, they replace them. Preventing me from ignoring this content by forcefuly making it take the place of what I liked to do.
Terrorfrodo wrote: you hate content that requires attention and thinking, but would consider the addition of another type of site that functions exactly as the brain-dead stuff already in the game, only with a different label on the cans in it, an "improvement of gameplay".
It is because you don't focus on the right aspect of this gameplay. "Old" Radar and Magnetometric sites are not fun because I have to cycle a module over and over, it is because their PvE provide a challenge not matched in any other anomaly available to me, and it is because looting the cans is the consequence of some fight. It was not easy to acquire, and because of that its price was high enough for me.
It is the same thing for what I was suggesting (and you ignored the clouds part, despite that fact that any developper with a bit of common sense should make it his priority) about clones sites. Of course its mechanisms wouldn't be amazing compared to other sites, but it would be the birth of a new market, and the possibility to have player-driven control over this essential part of the gameplay (the clone thing).
The difference between us in this particular point, is that I see beyond the cosmic anomaly to look at its implications as a whole in the universe... And that's what any sandbox developper should do :/ . With my point of view, what the current planned change offers is... Nothing. Materials easier to aquire loosing their value, an activity completed quicker and easier loosing its entertaining value... And in the end, nothing changes outside of the anomaly, while when you do it, things are just more boring.
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:Give us high-resolutions textures instead in two weeks, we will be satisfied then i think.
I approve this ! :D Currently, every graphical/sound improvement made in Odyssey is imo a very good work and worth deploying in itself. Of course this is not an expansion-level content, but thinking that this minigame is different would be a mistake. G££ <= Me |
Circumstantial Evidence
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 10:34:00 -
[137] - Quote
On one hand, some people are saying that the sites are too easy to run in cheap ships, partly due to no (significant) rats to kill. (Except WH dwellers who want sleeper rats to stay for their predictable isk value.) The built in scanner will show everyone that something is in the system for you to drop probes and scan down. This leads to more sites found and completed more frequently, and so I understand an argument for some loot devaluation. Especially since we are now told these sites will have more and better loot, from high to null.
On another hand, some people complain that the loot-scatter mechanic makes it too hard to get all the good stuff, and you need friends to help grab more of it. The main problem is that it favors players with hand-eye coordination, clicking skills, whereas pretty much everyone can "activate module and wait." Many potentially good items will drift off, and vaporize. The cans have names that hint at the contents, but it is still random which one may have the most valuable item, or if any "valuable" item is present. You can chase after can names you think are better, but they are all drifting away in three dimensions, and time is running out.
I wonder if we are getting close to where "too easy" complaints roughly equal "too hard" complaints.
Combining a puzzle game with an action game makes an interesting design, but I think many players would prefer one or the other.
Relic sites could keep the old "activate module" method, but produce a loot scatter. Data sites could use the puzzle as the key to opening a single loot can, or perhaps many randomly-placed but stationary cans, on grid with the same rapid expiration problem, that anyone could warp to.
Or alternate the two methods randomly. Tell the player using a code word on the scanner result, which type of mini-game the player will encounter. If I don't like the site looting method, I can move on and look for another. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
403
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 10:43:00 -
[138] - Quote
The other problem underligned by Circumstantial Evidence is indeed that the shatter mechanics is not requiering any knowledge, character skills, and reflexion. It is just involving hand coordination, not being colorblind, and some luck... This is not EvE.
I still think that the minigame will quickly be boring for everyone, but at least you are using your brain.
Quote:brain-dead stuff already in the game
Because yes, container shatter mechanic is no different from "brain-dead stuff already in the game". Just even more random and frustrating. G££ <= Me |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
461
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 10:53:00 -
[139] - Quote
Altrue wrote: It is the same thing for what I was suggesting (and you ignored the clouds part, despite that fact that any developper with a bit of common sense should make it his priority) about clones sites. Of course its mechanisms wouldn't be amazing compared to other sites, but it would be the birth of a new market,
...which would be 100% like the old markets, only the item you sold would have the label 'clone grade beta' instead of 'stasis webifier II'. How is this in any way new or exciting? It is only truly new if the mechanics of aquiring, building and selling those 'new' items are different from what we have now.
Obviously you are not the only one who for some reason enjoys doing the exactly same, not even slightly randomized thing for years. Although I don't get those people, I have no problem with leaving some of the old content unchanged for them.
But you say that something you liked is going to be replaced. That is true in a way, but since as I said all the existing pve content in EVE is exactly the same (warp in, shoot something with a weapon or harvester or mining laser, loot a can, warp out), it is not *really* true. There will be a lot of the content you like still in the game, you'll just need to pick something with a different label on it than before. Instead of doing a radar site you can now fly some combat anomaly, the gameplay is exactly like what you are used to. . |
|
CCP Bayesian
757
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 10:55:00 -
[140] - Quote
Thanks for the feedback guys.
I'll outline some of my thoughts for the next iteration of the hacking as people have noted it's quite 'light' at the moment on strategy. In part this is due to a scoping down of the initial design which had Utilities as items in EVE that could be collected and traded on the market. This would let you fit your module prior to hacking which adds a whole bunch of decision making depth to the hacking itself. This is the first thing I want to put in post-release as not only does it make things much more interesting, it adds in a new way for hacking to generate income and the current design goes against our no closed systems design principle. We also have a whole bunch of more interesting Defense Subsystems and Utilities to add in to increase the variety of things you encounter. On top of which we are considering some ideas for Utilities that let you deploy Virus Subsystems into the systems you are hacking and passive Utilities that take up space but provide a bonus. This should all lead to more interesting choices to make on how you hack.
This is a start, not the end. :) EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
|
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1471
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 10:57:00 -
[141] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Well if people don't like the loot spew, that's another matter. But a fair number of the complaints I've seen have been essentially, "but I want to get ALL the loot why can't I get all the loot", which sort of indicates a missing of the point of the loot spew.
Odd, in both threads regarding the Pinata, the main complaint I've seen that they don't like the overall mechanic. The complaints about the loot is that in general it is crap(mostly NPC commodities).
mynnna wrote:The whole point of the loot spew is that it encourages bringing friends. .
I can understand CCP wanting to make exploration more of a group activity, however this space pinata is the laziest, halfassed, and backwards logic way of doing it. Looting should be the least of the group activity, not the only.
Scanning and Hacking requires one person, yet looting was redesigned for multiple? :ccplogic:
CCP designed WHs and sleepers to be a challenge which would cause players to group up. Then they turn around and remove sleepers from the most profitable sites, which now can be done solo in a covops. :ccplogic:
CCP wanted to reduce clicking in probing, yet added in a minigame and pinata that's all clicking? :ccplogic:
/rant CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
|
CCP Tallest
C C P C C P Alliance
524
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:01:00 -
[142] - Quote
I want to correct a slight misunderstanding. This was a miscommunication between me and Soundwave about the NPC removal and I apologize for not spotting this earlier.
NPCs are not being removed from wormhole sites.
We are only removing NPCs from "normal" k-space hacking and archaeology signatures (NPCs will only spawn in those sites when you fail at the challenge). No changes are being made to NPCs in wormholes or COSMOS or other hacking/archaeology sites.
The reason for the removal is to allow explorers to play the game without having a combat ship on standby. Gÿà EVE Game Designer Gÿà GÖÑ Team Super Friends GÖÑ |
|
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1837
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:17:00 -
[143] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Thanks for the feedback guys.
I'll outline some of my thoughts for the next iteration of the hacking as people have noted it's quite 'light' at the moment on strategy. In part this is due to a scoping down of the initial design which had Utilities as items in EVE that could be collected and traded on the market. This would let you fit your module prior to hacking which adds a whole bunch of decision making depth to the hacking itself. This is the first thing I want to put in post-release as not only does it make things much more interesting, it adds in a new way for hacking to generate income and the current design goes against our no closed systems design principle. We also have a whole bunch of more interesting Defense Subsystems and Utilities to add in to increase the variety of things you encounter. On top of which we are considering some ideas for Utilities that let you deploy Virus Subsystems into the systems you are hacking and passive Utilities that take up space but provide a bonus. This should all lead to more interesting choices to make on how you hack.
This is a start, not the end. :) Please move the focus on the hacking mechanics as a method for encouraging group efforts and scrap the loot pi+¦ata.
Multiple levels and/or multiple cores for increased loot with optional space fights from defence systems/guards to make it easier or improving loot, remote boosting of the hacker or multiple entry adding utilities with script modified hacking modules.
Play some Shadowrun (P&P). I think that game has some nice ideas concerning infiltration and data retrieval. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
332
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:21:00 -
[144] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:I want to correct a slight misunderstanding. This was a miscommunication between me and Soundwave about the NPC removal and I apologize for not spotting this earlier.
NPCs are not being removed from wormhole sites.
We are only removing NPCs from "normal" k-space hacking and archaeology signatures (NPCs will only spawn in those sites when you fail at the challenge). No changes are being made to NPCs in wormholes or COSMOS or other hacking/archaeology sites.
The reason for the removal is to allow explorers to play the game without having a combat ship on standby. Appreciate the clarification, Tallest. Good to hear. Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3 |
|
CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2512
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:24:00 -
[145] - Quote
Morning update post!
Changes that will hit Sisi later today:
- The 0.0 sites are now complete and ready to be run. That means weGÇÖre done rejigging the sites and anything not working in terms of GÇ£interior designGÇ¥ should be submitted as a bug report.
- The performance issues with clouds should be taken care of as well. If itGÇÖs not, poke us in this thread, but the site changes deployed later should fix them.
- We are cutting the number of scatter containers in half, while retaining the total loot of a hacking/arch object. This should effectively double your income.
Stuff thatGÇÖs in development and relevant to feedback posted in this thread:
- One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel
this make the profession more coherent.
- WeGÇÖre looking into the scatter container brackets. Anything from increasing size, changing their icons depending on loot category etc is on the board, to make them easier to interact with.
- Sleeper sites will not have their NPCs removed.
WeGÇÖll be in the thread monitoring all day. Thanks for the feedback. |
|
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5051
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:25:00 -
[146] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Thanks for the feedback guys.
I'll outline some of my thoughts for the next iteration of the hacking as people have noted it's quite 'light' at the moment on strategy. In part this is due to a scoping down of the initial design which had Utilities as items in EVE that could be collected and traded on the market. This would let you fit your module prior to hacking which adds a whole bunch of decision making depth to the hacking itself. This is the first thing I want to put in post-release as not only does it make things much more interesting, it adds in a new way for hacking to generate income and the current design goes against our no closed systems design principle. We also have a whole bunch of more interesting Defense Subsystems and Utilities to add in to increase the variety of things you encounter. On top of which we are considering some ideas for Utilities that let you deploy Virus Subsystems into the systems you are hacking and passive Utilities that take up space but provide a bonus. This should all lead to more interesting choices to make on how you hack.
This is a start, not the end. :) Please move the focus on the hacking mechanics as a method for encouraging group efforts and scrap the loot pi+¦ata. Multiple levels and/or multiple cores for increased loot with optional space fights from defence systems/guards to make it easier or improving loot, remote boosting of the hacker or multiple entry adding utilities with script modified hacking modules. Play some Shadowrun (P&P). I think that game has some nice ideas concerning infiltration and data retrieval.
I haven't tried the new system, but I can confirm, that the current system doesn't sound like a fun group activity. It sounds like one guy actually does things and the rest can play pocket mining/watch youtube videos while waiting for the climax and loot release. Yes it means your income isn't cut to a fraction if you bring friends anymore, but it's still not much of a group activity. |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:29:00 -
[147] - Quote
Heinel Coventina wrote:Wenthrial Solamar wrote:New Sisi C5 Radar Site: 1. Scan down ( solo ) 2. Hack ( 1 person using the interface ) 2.5 Spam D-scan ( lern2 friend ) 3. Loot (group) 4. go home.
FTFY
So the gameplay of your friend consists of spamming dscan followed by a short game of click-the-floating-cans. I wouldn't impose this type of "gameplay" upon an enemy, much less a friend.
|
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:35:00 -
[148] - Quote
why do not add some variety to different sites? Not al sites must have that ugly pinata. You can leave high sec site without npc, but i don't think not having a combat ship for low and 0.0 is a good idea.
Like having turrets activate when you encounter a firewall you can choose to go on and ignore them, to destroy them or to suppress the firewall deactivating them. First firewall only damage turrets, second firewall damage + web, third damage + neut.
Or sites where hacking allows you to shot a structure for a while (similar to the incursion vg) and the loot is in the structure, and you can hack less and bring more dps, or more hack and less dps (so they remain soloable) but having only a set of hackable sites you have to destroy the structure before you run out of them.
You can have an hacking site where succesful hacking send a fake signal that lure and enemy overseer that drops the loot.
A data site where there are 4 can to analize each can except the last one when hacked release a cloud that does for example 300 dps of a type of damage(sansha space for example em) so after the first can 300 dps second 600 dps that is still easy tankable but after the third it become 900 dps and you have to choose if hack the last can fast, or bring a more tanked ship.
Those are only the first things that have come to my mind, but you can add a lot more variety.
In the current state those site are very boring more than
sorry for my english, i really hope ccp reads this |
Sylvia Nardieu
audacity.
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:43:00 -
[149] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
- One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel
this make the profession more coherent.
So basically, the penalty for failure will be same loot in more containers making it harder to catch em all before they despawn? Or was it a typo and you meant that less loot will be scattered? |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:45:00 -
[150] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:I'll outline some of my thoughts for the next iteration of the hacking as people have noted it's quite 'light' at the moment on strategy. In part this is due to a scoping down of the initial design which had Utilities as items in EVE that could be collected and traded on the market. This would let you fit your module prior to hacking which adds a whole bunch of decision making depth to the hacking itself. This is the first thing I want to put in post-release as not only does it make things much more interesting, it adds in a new way for hacking to generate income and the current design goes against our no closed systems design principle. We also have a whole bunch of more interesting Defense Subsystems and Utilities to add in to increase the variety of things you encounter. On top of which we are considering some ideas for Utilities that let you deploy Virus Subsystems into the systems you are hacking and passive Utilities that take up space but provide a bonus. This should all lead to more interesting choices to make on how you hack.
That sounds very good, I'm not really concerned about the minigame, I'm sure it'll be fine.
CCP Soundwave wrote: One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel this make the profession more coherent. Sounds like a plan, I agree that reducing loot is a more fitting penalty than spawning rats. One problem is we're currently a bit short on ships. The current ship progression for those profession sites is T1 scanning frig --> The End. Maybe put some hacking bonuses on CovOps and T3s, at least temporary till new ships arrive?
Quote:WeGÇÖre looking into the scatter container brackets. Anything from increasing size, changing their icons depending on loot category etc is on the board, to make them easier to interact with. I'm still not convinced I'll ever like this mechanic and consider it fun, but if you're determined to keep it then yes, these things would help. |
|
Tsubutai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
206
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 11:51:00 -
[151] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Stuff thatGÇÖs in development and relevant to feedback posted in this thread:
[list=1]
One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel this make the profession more coherent. I think this is going to present a significant balance issue. As it stands on SiSi, the T1 exploration frigates are the only ships that provide a bonus to virus strength and are thus arguably the best ships for doing these sites in, especially since the NPCs are being removed entirely. If the rewards per site are also being doubled, that means you'll be able to farm quite valuable loot in throwaway ships.
|
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1183
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 12:17:00 -
[152] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:
- One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel
this make the profession more coherent.
So basically, the penalty for failure will be same loot in more containers making it harder to catch em all before they despawn? Or was it a typo and you meant that less loot will be scattered?
Pretty sure he means the same amount of loot, but more containers, which means more junk containers.
Rob Crowley wrote: This is not just a problem regarding player progression and sense of achievement, but also you're currently encouraging people to run those sites in low/nullsec with a cheap T1 frig instead of a shiny expensive toy because the T1 frig is actually better at it. But surely you must want PvEers to bring their T3s and similar stuff (and risk/lose them in the process).
This is a good point. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
461
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 12:21:00 -
[153] - Quote
Indeed. Risk vs. reward has in fact three factors. One is the reward, but the risk it split between two factors: The probability that you lose something and the value of what you can lose.
If you stand a 5% chance to lose your ship but the ship is worth 2 billion, that is quite a big risk. If you have a chance of 50% to lose your ship but the ship's worth is only 1 million, that is a very small risk. . |
Jommis
CRICE Corporation Insidious Associates
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 12:25:00 -
[154] - Quote
Hello CCP peeps.
I just did a mag site in 0.0 Lots of cans got shot into space when i opened the cans.
My question is as follows.
Are they supposed to despawn after 20-30 seconds? I'm in my shiny tengu and have no chance to check them before they despawn.
And is it possible to get the cans on the overview? |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 12:29:00 -
[155] - Quote
Jommis wrote: Are they supposed to despawn after 20-30 seconds? I'm in my shiny tengu and have no chance to check them before they despawn.
And is it possible to get the cans on the overview?
They are supposed to do so. The containers are "drifting away" until they disappear. Thats because CCP endorses you to bring along some of your friends, so everyone can click the cans to tractorbeam them.
Also: Seeing the cans in the overview would be nice, but then it would be easy to see the names of the cans and get the high-value-ones first... |
|
CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2515
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 12:51:00 -
[156] - Quote
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:
- One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel
this make the profession more coherent.
So basically, the penalty for failure will be same loot in more containers making it harder to catch em all before they despawn? Or was it a typo and you meant that less loot will be scattered?
Same loot, more containers |
|
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:03:00 -
[157] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Morning update post! Changes that will hit Sisi later today:
- The 0.0 sites are now complete and ready to be run. That means weGÇÖre done rejigging the sites and anything not working in terms of GÇ£interior designGÇ¥ should be submitted as a bug report.
- The performance issues with clouds should be taken care of as well. If itGÇÖs not, poke us in this thread, but the site changes deployed later should fix them.
- We are cutting the number of scatter containers in half, while retaining the total loot of a hacking/arch object. This should effectively double your income.
Stuff thatGÇÖs in development and relevant to feedback posted in this thread:
- One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel
this make the profession more coherent.
- WeGÇÖre looking into the scatter container brackets. Anything from increasing size, changing their icons depending on loot category etc is on the board, to make them easier to interact with.
- Sleeper sites will not have their NPCs removed.
WeGÇÖll be in the thread monitoring all day. Thanks for the feedback.
so basically the actual formula is definitive?
|
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:03:00 -
[158] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote: [list=1]
One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit.
This sounds like a good idea on paper. What's problematic about the way it's implemented is that you have hurt all-in-one exploration, thereby limited the possibilities for explorers. Explorers now have to chose between doing profession sites or combat sites to run either efficiently, especialy below hisec. That's due to ban of T3 from 4/10 and the new mods taking up slots. For profession ships its gonna be necessary to fit the right rigs, some probe mods to run them efficiently, so no room for tank and dps. Combat exploration Ishtar has no room for probe mods, hacking rigs, has no bonusses anyway and can't fit cov cloak. Pilgrim is too weak and has no bonuses and extra slots aswell.
So if you insist on the T3 ban you should consider a new ship class for all in one exploration. Could be a buffed Pilgrim with bonus to virus strenght and probing, two extra med slots for probe mods, one more low slot for better tank and a bit more cpu. Sounds pretty hardcore, eh? I guess it could be balanced by hardcoding that 4 of the midslots must be used for analyzers and probe mods and nothing else. (or how about these modules already being built in like a true exploration ship?)
Or you make a new ship based on the Gnosis model in that fashion with the bpc's spawning in exploration sites. These ships would be quite expensive i suppose so risk/reward isnt hurt as much as running sites in frigs.
|
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:09:00 -
[159] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote: [list=1]
One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. This sounds like a good idea on paper. What's problematic about the way it's implemented is that you have hurt all-in-one exploration, thereby limited the possibilities for explorers. Explorers now have to chose between doing profession sites or combat sites to run either efficiently, especialy below hisec. That's due to ban of T3 from 4/10 and the new mods taking up slots. For profession ships its gonna be necessary to fit the right rigs, some probe mods to run them efficiently, so no room for tank and dps. Combat exploration Ishtar has no room for probe mods, hacking rigs, has no bonusses anyway and can't fit cov cloak. Pilgrim is too weak and has no bonuses and extra slots aswell. So if you insist on the T3 ban you should consider a new ship class for all in one exploration. Could be a buffed Pilgrim with bonus to virus strenght and probing, two extra med slots for probe mods, one more low slot for better tank and a bit more cpu. Sounds pretty hardcore, eh? I guess it could be balanced by hardcoding that 4 of the midslots must be used for analyzers and probe mods and nothing else. (or how about these modules already being built in like a true exploration ship?) Or you make a new ship based on the Gnosis model in that fashion with the bpc's spawning in exploration sites. These ships would be quite expensive i suppose so risk/reward isnt hurt as much as running sites in frigs.
why would you need a new ship when the actual covert ops can run those site just fine? They are cheap, cloaked and fast. If they remove the npc from those site there will be no reason to stick with another ship. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:12:00 -
[160] - Quote
Seth Asthereun wrote:why would you need a new ship when the actual covert ops can run those site just fine? They are cheap, cloaked and fast. If they remove the npc from those site there will be no reason to stick with another ship.
You completely missed the point which is all-in-one exploration (profession sites+combat sites in the same ship).
|
|
Noonxo
Federal Organization for Outerspace Freedom Fatal Ascension
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:15:00 -
[161] - Quote
Seth Asthereun wrote:why would you need a new ship when the actual covert ops can run those site just fine? They are cheap, cloaked and fast. If they remove the npc from those site there will be no reason to stick with another ship.
In a CovOps any kind of fail that spawns even a NPC frigate prevents you from staying there and continue hacking.
Edit: I actually tried and you can fit a Small shield booster if you add at least 1 Co-proc, though you can't fit the 3 Scanning Upgrades + both Analyzers doing that. (tested on a Buzzard) |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:19:00 -
[162] - Quote
Noonxo wrote: In a CovOps any kind of fail that spawns even a NPC frigate prevents you from staying there and continue hacking.
There won't spawn any NPCs if you fail hacking. Soundwave made it clear one page back ;) No NPCs in data/relic-sites in K-Space.
But yeah, if you want to do all-in-one-exploration, maybe you have to think about new fittings and ships in the future. I am excited to see what kind of new ships CCP plans for the progression tree of exploration. |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
712
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:20:00 -
[163] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:I want to correct a slight misunderstanding. This was a miscommunication between me and Soundwave about the NPC removal and I apologize for not spotting this earlier.
NPCs are not being removed from wormhole sites.
We are only removing NPCs from "normal" k-space hacking and archaeology signatures (NPCs will only spawn in those sites when you fail at the challenge). No changes are being made to NPCs in wormholes or COSMOS or other hacking/archaeology sites.
The reason for the removal is to allow explorers to play the game without having a combat ship on standby.
That's kind of disappointing. It could have been a good change if you did it right...
Is my bitter vet membership card in the mail? |
Noonxo
Federal Organization for Outerspace Freedom Fatal Ascension
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:20:00 -
[164] - Quote
Ho my bad I missed that line I just read the "added containers" part :D I was still thinking of my experience from yesterday where a ****** T1 frigate kicked my ass off a Site |
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:23:00 -
[165] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Seth Asthereun wrote:why would you need a new ship when the actual covert ops can run those site just fine? They are cheap, cloaked and fast. If they remove the npc from those site there will be no reason to stick with another ship. You completely missed the point which is all-in-one exploration (profession sites+combat sites in the same ship).
you can use any ship atm, with the scanning modules ishater, vagabond etc etc will have no problem to do high sec or low sec esploration |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:27:00 -
[166] - Quote
Noonxo wrote:Ho my bad I missed that line I just read the "added containers" part :D I was still thinking of my experience from yesterday where a ****** T1 frigate kicked my ass off a Site
Off Topic: This Forum needs an "SHOW ALL DEV POSTS IN THIS THREAD" Button. Would make a lot things easier |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:30:00 -
[167] - Quote
Seth Asthereun wrote:you can use any ship atm with the new scanning modules ishtar, vagabond pilgrim..... will have no problem to do high sec exploration both combat and and data/relic. For harder sites there are the t3
Was thinking more about low sec. Sure you can fit the mods on every ship. But think about efficiency for a second. You end up with ships that can do everything but are good at nothing. And show me where you fit the new mods on an all in one exploration T3 or put hacking rigs on there. |
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:38:00 -
[168] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Seth Asthereun wrote:you can use any ship atm with the new scanning modules ishtar, vagabond pilgrim..... will have no problem to do high sec exploration both combat and and data/relic. For harder sites there are the t3 Was thinking more about low sec. Sure you can fit the mods on every ship. But think about efficiency for a second. You end up with ships that can do everything but are good at nothing. And show me where you fit the new mods on an all in one exploration T3 or put hacking rigs on there.
hacking rigs? really?
[Tengu, Esplorazione] Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
6x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Scourge Fury Heavy Missile) Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner 2x Pith B-Type EM Ward Field Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Analyzer II
3x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
2x Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
ok that is the one i use and doesn't need any new mods to probe i have in cargo codebreaker II, salvager II, sba, covert ops cloak and covert subsystem. and can easly run every 0.0 site from magneto to 10/10 |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:43:00 -
[169] - Quote
Seth Asthereun wrote:hacking rigs? really?
CCP mentioned bonuses to virus strenghts so i would assume they will be a good addition to run profession sites efficiently.
Quote:[Tengu, Esplorazione] Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
6x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Scourge Fury Heavy Missile) Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner 2x Pith B-Type EM Ward Field Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Analyzer II
3x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
2x Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
ok that is the one i use, i have in cargo codebreaker II, salvager II, sba, covert ops cloak and covert subsystem. and can easly run every 0.0 site from magneto to 10/10
That's not a all-in-one fit.
|
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:51:00 -
[170] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Seth Asthereun wrote:hacking rigs? really? CCP mentioned bonuses to virus strenghts so i would assume they will be a good addition to run profession sites efficiently. Quote:[Tengu, Esplorazione] Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
6x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Scourge Fury Heavy Missile) Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner 2x Pith B-Type EM Ward Field Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Analyzer II
3x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
2x Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
ok that is the one i use, i have in cargo codebreaker II, salvager II, sba, covert ops cloak and covert subsystem. and can easly run every 0.0 site from magneto to 10/10 That's not a all-in-one fit.
Hacking sites are already easy without rigs So you want a ship with 6 mid slots, covert, and with bonus to drones? Exploration is already easy let's make it even easier. |
|
Mario delTorres
GBTeam C0VEN
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 13:55:00 -
[171] - Quote
OK. I counted it. I found guristas haking site in low sec.
One of the data containters has only 1 decryptor screen
When I hacked it 20 small containers spawned in random directions. screen
Decryptor is inside one of them then you have only 5% chance for catch it.
5% chance! WOW! but ONLY if you successfully hack minigame in every time!
If success of hacking minigame is 70% then you chance for catch valuable item is 3,5% WOW and WOW again! I have to buy a lot of decryptors because with this chance all prices will rise a lot!
|
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
828
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:02:00 -
[172] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Seth Asthereun wrote:you can use any ship atm with the new scanning modules ishtar, vagabond pilgrim..... will have no problem to do high sec exploration both combat and and data/relic. For harder sites there are the t3 Was thinking more about low sec. Sure you can fit the mods on every ship. But think about efficiency for a second. You end up with ships that can do everything but are good at nothing. And show me where you fit the new mods on an all in one exploration T3 or put hacking rigs on there. exactly as it should be, there shouldn't be a Single Correct Exploration Fit |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:14:00 -
[173] - Quote
Seth Asthereun wrote:Hacking sites are already easy without rigs So you want a ship with 6 mid slots, covert, and with bonus to drones? Exploration is already easy let's make it even easier. Refitting from time to time doesn't seem to be such a burden
How can you say this? The hacking isn't even finished yet. Ther's probably gonna be some sites that will be more tricky as the sites right now. I lost a bunch of containers on sisi due to failing the hacking game aswell. Obviously the concept of efficiency is foreign to you.
Also i'm talking about a ship like all-in-one Ishtar or Pilgrim that take the new changes and mechanics into account and you react by posting your pimped mission fit. How is that even relevant? People play Eve differently. Hard to grasp. Good for you that you can run 10/10 in your boat. I don't have access to non NPC stations in nullsec to switch fits and why would that even be considered normal for a true exploration ship? And i don't even talk about a boat that would be capable of soloing higher class combat sites unlike your ship so what's the problem? You don't like other people sniffing around on your turf in a cloaky ship, that's it, isn't it? |
Killua Zoldyeck
Jump Zero
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:16:00 -
[174] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:I want to correct a slight misunderstanding. This was a miscommunication between me and Soundwave about the NPC removal and I apologize for not spotting this earlier.
NPCs are not being removed from wormhole sites.
We are only removing NPCs from "normal" k-space hacking and archaeology signatures (NPCs will only spawn in those sites when you fail at the challenge). No changes are being made to NPCs in wormholes or COSMOS or other hacking/archaeology sites.
The reason for the removal is to allow explorers to play the game without having a combat ship on standby.
Then can you please remove the NPC that spawns if you fail the minigame too? Because if I fail, I need that combat ship on standby to deal with it...
|
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:18:00 -
[175] - Quote
Killua Zoldyeck wrote: Then can you please remove the NPC that spawns if you fail the minigame too? Because if I fail, I need that combat ship on standby to deal with it...
they will be removed in the next "SiSi Patch". Soundwave (or another Dev) said so two pages back. Dont worry.
CCP Soundwave wrote: One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel this make the profession more coherent.
|
Killua Zoldyeck
Jump Zero
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:19:00 -
[176] - Quote
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:Killua Zoldyeck wrote: Then can you please remove the NPC that spawns if you fail the minigame too? Because if I fail, I need that combat ship on standby to deal with it...
they will be removed in the next "SiSi Patch". Soundwave (or another Dev) said so two pages back. Dont worry.
Yes my bad :) I posted my reply before taking the time to read the whole topic :) :) |
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos Whores in space
143
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:32:00 -
[177] - Quote
loot pintas are still not fun, did 18 hi sec sites, got around 12m isk of loot. |
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 14:35:00 -
[178] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Seth Asthereun wrote:Hacking sites are already easy without rigs So you want a ship with 6 mid slots, covert, and with bonus to drones? Exploration is already easy let's make it even easier. Refitting from time to time doesn't seem to be such a burden How can you say this? The hacking isn't even finished yet. Ther's probably gonna be some sites that will be more tricky as the sites right now. I lost a bunch of containers on sisi due to failing the hacking game aswell. Obviously the concept of efficiency is foreign to you. Also i'm talking about a ship like all-in-one Ishtar or Pilgrim that take the new changes and mechanics into account and you react by posting your pimped mission fit. How is that even relevant? People play Eve differently. Hard to grasp. Good for you that you can run 10/10 in your boat. I don't have access to non NPC stations in nullsec to switch fits and why would that even be considered normal for a true exploration ship? And i don't even talk about a boat that would be capable of soloing higher class combat sites unlike your ship so what's the problem? You don't like other people sniffing around on your turf in a cloaky ship, that's it, isn't it?
I'm talking about what is hacking atm, i can't and you can't know what it will be, you are talking to me of efficiency and you can't figure out how to fit and all in one ship. you can already do it with the ishtar, no you won't be able to fit your beloved rigs and won't be covert. But as someone as written before "there shouldn't be a Single Correct Exploration Fit" and there souldn't be a "final" exploration ship that can do everything efficiently. That will just make exploration more easy than it already is And btw i probe in providence and low sec so there are already a lot of "other people sniffing around on you turf in a cloaky ship" the solution i come to was to specialize (as it should be in everything) not ask CCP a ship that allows me to do everything |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1880
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 15:05:00 -
[179] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Sylvia Nardieu wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:
- One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel
this make the profession more coherent.
So basically, the penalty for failure will be same loot in more containers making it harder to catch em all before they despawn? Or was it a typo and you meant that less loot will be scattered? Same loot, more containers Another way to handle failure is to increase the speed the containers move once they have been released. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Kor'el Izia
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 15:17:00 -
[180] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
We are cutting the number of scatter containers in half, while retaining the total loot of a hacking/arch object. This should effectively double your income. [/list]
If by double you mean having the same as we do today, what one person can take. |
|
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 15:20:00 -
[181] - Quote
Seth Asthereun wrote:But as someone as written before "there shouldn't be a Single Correct Exploration Fit" and there souldn't be a "final" exploration ship that can do everything efficiently. That will just make exploration more easy than it already is And btw i probe in providence and low sec so there are already a lot of "other people sniffing around on you turf in a cloaky ship" the solution i come to was to specialize (as it should be in everything) not ask CCP a ship that allows me to do everything
I feel that's just intellectualy dishonest approach. The ship doesn't do "everything efficiently". It does exploration reasonably efficiently. Like a mining ship does mining efficiently, like a battleship does missions efficiently, like a noctis does salvaging efficiently etc. The new changes create a dichotomy between two kinds of exploration. I don't see what's wrong with having an appropriate intermediate step between t1 frig (with virus and probe bonus) and cloaky t3 (which you cant use for half the combat sites in low sec anymore). Pilgrim isn't an approprite intermediate step because it lacks the bonuses of t1 and is a bit flimsy. Ishtar isn't appropriate intermediate step either because it has no cov cloak and lacks bonuses aswell. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1052
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 15:26:00 -
[182] - Quote
So today I did a null sec site, as was suggested I look at what loot I was getting from what containers I picked up. I still mostly got only data sheets, scrap metal, small arms, and electronic parts quite disappointing. I did get 8 data cores but that was about it from 6 spew containers.
The hacking in null sec was a big change from empire failed once and I did come real close to destroying a spew container, I only had 8 coherence left.
Unless the null sec sites are not finished (I did have a rat spawn upon a failed hacking attempt) I don't see much in the way of future hacking for me. When I have some more time I will return to return to empire and try again there. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Seth Asthereun
Oscura Simmetria Yulai Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 15:30:00 -
[183] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Seth Asthereun wrote:But as someone as written before "there shouldn't be a Single Correct Exploration Fit" and there souldn't be a "final" exploration ship that can do everything efficiently. That will just make exploration more easy than it already is And btw i probe in providence and low sec so there are already a lot of "other people sniffing around on you turf in a cloaky ship" the solution i come to was to specialize (as it should be in everything) not ask CCP a ship that allows me to do everything I feel that's just intellectualy dishonest approach. The ship doesn't do "everything efficiently". It does exploration reasonably efficiently. Like a mining ship does mining efficiently, like a battleship does missions efficiently, like a noctis does salvaging efficiently etc. The new changes create a dichotomy between two kinds of exploration. I don't see what's wrong with having an appropriate intermediate step between t1 frig (with virus and probe bonus) and cloaky t3 (which you cant use for half the combat sites in low sec anymore). Pilgrim isn't an approprite intermediate step because it lacks the bonuses of t1 and is a bit flimsy. Ishtar isn't appropriate intermediate step either because it has no cov cloak and lacks bonuses aswell.
i on the other hand think that in the range of "reasonably efficiently" there are already option, i could be wrong, maybe at the release the site will be harded. |
|
CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2518
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:10:00 -
[184] - Quote
Sisi about to be taken down for the changes mentioned here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3075661#post3075661
|
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5151
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:12:00 -
[185] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/icGvhE9.jpg http://i.imgur.com/PPepUjl.jpg
I don't know about you but I find the cans rather difficult to see in this particular site against that enormous glaring ball of... whatever the hell that is. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
170
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:15:00 -
[186] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Morning update post!
GǪ.One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel this make the profession more coherent.
While I feel that within the current design this will be a big improvement, it does beg the question of what does this mean when the "new" supposedly fun gameplay mechanic you are adding into this profession, slightly magnified, is in fact the punishment for failure mechanic also? |
|
CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2518
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:17:00 -
[187] - Quote
Manssell wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Morning update post!
GǪ.One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel this make the profession more coherent.
While I feel that within the current design this will be a big improvement, it does beg the question of what does this mean when the "new" supposedly fun gameplay mechanic you are adding into this profession, slightly magnified, is in fact the punishment for failure mechanic also?
I don't really mind punishing failure, it's more about what tools you have to do what. When you run missions, you have a combat ship. When you mine, you have a miner. When you do exploration, you should have a fitting ship. Exploration ships shouldn't have the tools combat ships have, but instead have benefits to that profession (like the bonuses to the ships). That doesn't mean there can't be failure mechanic, it just can't be based on something we actively discourage you to carry tools for (combat for example). |
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1053
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:18:00 -
[188] - Quote
Excellent, I will try again after the patch. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
159
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:25:00 -
[189] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:This would let you fit your module prior to hacking which adds a whole bunch of decision making depth to the hacking itself. This is the first thing I want to put in post-release as not only does it make things much more interesting, it adds in a new way for hacking to generate income and the current design goes against our no closed systems design principle. In all honesty, this is the stuff that should be in the first release. Not something added on afterwards. Because we are already all too familiar with CCP's notion of "Soon"(tm). Without having some form of decision-making involved (eg. what utilites to slot ahead of time), it is just random chance for success. And that quite frankly, sucks ass. If I want random chance, I'll just flip a coin. Goes alot faster, and is about as rewarding given last night's loot tables.
|
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2518
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:39:00 -
[190] - Quote
It looks like there's still a few issues with the 0.0 container positioning/clouds, we're working on it. |
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Wenthrial Solamar
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:41:00 -
[191] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote: < Good Stuff>
I don't really mind punishing failure, it's more about what tools you have to do what. When you run missions, you have a combat ship. When you mine, you have a miner. When you do exploration, you should have a fitting ship. Exploration ships shouldn't have the tools combat ships have, but instead have benefits to that profession (like the bonuses to the ships). That doesn't mean there can't be failure mechanic, it just can't be based on something we actively discourage you to carry tools for (combat for example).
This is a sound design principal, And something that I think will improve EvE if applied well.
Keeping the focus on using the Loot explosion as the feedback side of good/poor hacking is the right direction, using it as a way to encourage grouping is not.
The current twitch design of can retervial is no good, the looting mechanic needs to be effected by an In-game skill more strongly than it is effected by the spec's of the system I'm looting on. A High skill toon on a crappy old laptop should still be better than low skill toon on a hot-rod gaming system.
Perhaps limiting the number of cans you can tractor to 1.5x hacking skill , then make the cans hang around for a longer time, maybe 2/3 the current explosion velocity, and blow the brackets up to Huge size, like scanner-overlay size. Should still discourage multi-boxing, and reward grouping when it happens, and will reflect time spent training skills, all while reducing mad dash clicking. |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:46:00 -
[192] - Quote
hopefully the market will be back up as well, just did a central angel survey site with a friend. I'm in a tengu with just an ordinary site running fit (read t2 stuff) but with a t1 codebreaker/analyzer.
for hacking i'm at 90/30(i think the second number is). I'm hoping to toss a couple rigs to help the number out a bit more. Blew up one container from failing 3 times and failed another twice before finishing it.
Just a couple things i noticed/it seemed like:
1) the cans that poped out seemed to always be on the far side from where i was when i successfully hacked the can. maybe it was just chance as i only got through 2 cans before downtime this morning. will try it again but not sure if this was a planned thing. It also might have been because all the cans were stacked (was a known issue for null sites)?
2) i would much rather use a smaller but quicker ship as they would be MUCH better at getting to the cans before they disappear. as of now i get ~2-4 cans while my friend in a gnosis was able to pick up more than I was simply because he could change direction and get to the cans faster than the tengu could.
I was a bit skeptical when i first heard about this whole set-up but the hacking mini-game was actually pretty interesting although i'm still unclear on what else i could put on my ship to help hack other than the hacking module and the rigs? other than that something should be done about the speed of the cans. if i had a friend in something like a crane or bustard there's no way they'd get more than 1-2 cans and with the interface parts being part of the loot table for the cans i will defiantly have some sort of transport ship out there with me.
if i could suggest anything it would be something like a modifier to a transport ship that allows it to target and tractor the spew cans. you still can only get a couple because of the target time + tractor time but at best you can tractor a couple of them while sitting directly in the path of a few more so it still matches a small, quick ship that is limited in what it can grab from cargo-hold size. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
494
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:53:00 -
[193] - Quote
The new launcher update is taking for ever. |
Toddfish
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 16:59:00 -
[194] - Quote
Looking forward to getting home to tryout the latest build!
CCP Soundwave wrote: One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel this make the profession more coherent.
Thank you! This sounds like a completely reasonable penalty for a failed hacking attempt, rewarding those who get it right the first time, while providing the opportunity for more ship/fitting options.
CCP Soundwave wrote: WeGÇÖre looking into the scatter container brackets. Anything from increasing size, changing their icons depending on loot category etc is on the board, to make them easier to interact with. The biggest issue I had with the containers was the small size of the brackets/object. Finding them in space was difficult and accurately clicking on them (with a moving ship/camera) was frustrating. Increasing the size of the brackets to something on-par with a ship would greatly help. Also, having the color show-up as a filled-in square (similar to the bracket-fill colors on ships do) would help differentiate the scatter containers from the background/stars.
Having different icons based on loot category would be nice, but having the names on hover gives a hint... without being too oversimplified.
Ideally I'd like the scatter containers to show-up in the overview. With that I can see distances (without having to try and hover my mouse over a small moving can) when trying to approach them. I would be able to see/sort the can description (and loot types) to quickly single-out what can I might want to go after (potentially at the expense of missing other easier/closer/grouped cans).
|
Ahnn
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:03:00 -
[195] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Sisi is being updated right now btw. Did the remirror get deployed today? Update today, remirror tomorrow!
That was posted yesterday....
So was the remirror postponed? ETA? |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
494
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:07:00 -
[196] - Quote
Ahnn wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Sisi is being updated right now btw. Did the remirror get deployed today? Update today, remirror tomorrow! That was posted yesterday.... So was the remirror postponed? ETA? delayed no ETA |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:12:00 -
[197] - Quote
Salpun wrote:The new launcher update is taking for ever.
Dito. In fact it's stuck without doing anything. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5152
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:27:00 -
[198] - Quote
So, clouds didn't change, can amount didn't change, and placement of the containers didn't change. Did you actually change anything with this update? -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5152
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:32:00 -
[199] - Quote
Oh, and rats are still spawning on failure. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:44:00 -
[200] - Quote
just doing a Ruined Angel Monument site in -0.3 space and all the containers are still stacked ontop of each other. now there is a cloud around them though that is the epicenter of lag |
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Noonxo
Federal Organization for Outerspace Freedom Fatal Ascension
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:45:00 -
[201] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:So, clouds didn't change, can amount didn't change, and placement of the containers didn't change. Did you actually change anything with this update?
Wow so much hate... You know you can log off and go back to ship spinning on TQ right? It's obviously a bug and not intented. |
iskflakes
461
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:46:00 -
[202] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:No changes are being made to NPCs in wormholes or COSMOS or other hacking/archaeology sites.
CCP Soundwave wrote:
- Sleeper sites will not have their NPCs removed.
Good! Don't nerf my capital escalations any more than Fozzie is already doing (dreadnought tracking nerf). I really enjoy the teamwork they require. - |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:57:00 -
[203] - Quote
they did change the hacking minigame. seems the info is always in the bottom right corner now. along with they added in some new things and changed the values you get for your hacking thing. pre patch i was 90/30ish now i'm 80/20 and getting my a@@ handed to me lol
edit: i will note that i switched my rigs to a memtic algorithm bank and a emission scope sharpener both t1 |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 18:02:00 -
[204] - Quote
Feedback to the new uploaded build:
I visited an Regional Serpentis Data Processing Center in Lowsec (0.3).
- Containers are still bugged (as one DEV mentioned before). Filed a bug-report, the spew containers in my data site were all at the same position and INSIDE an asteroid structure, almost unable to approach. The moving circling parts of the hacking-tower-things were moving through the asteroid itself.
- After a failed Hacking Attempt i was attacked by one Serpentis Frigate. But Soundwave mentioned earlier today that this wouldn't happen anymore.
- Loot was garbage (mainly because the loot all floated away on the upper site of the asteroid, while i parked my ship on the lower side. flying around the asteroid took too long to get in range for the loot. :'(
Thx for fixing this. o7
PS: I saw multiple Container-types this time. "Equipment" "Material" "Data" "Scrap(not sure on this one)" Which one is giving the best loot? What do i have to look for? |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
366
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 18:13:00 -
[205] - Quote
Rather than dropping garbage, how about dropping a mix of Processed and Refined Commodities in addition to the old stuff? DirectX 11, it's not rocket appliance! |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1840
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 18:22:00 -
[206] - Quote
I just went through my 20 jump route through highsec, mostly 0.5 and 06 systems, and did not find a single relic or data site; many wormholes and a few combat sites though. All systems were freshly loaded (offline gates). Is that just a stroke of bad luck, intentional design or a bug? Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1053
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 18:42:00 -
[207] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:I just went through my 20 jump route through highsec, mostly 0.5 and 06 systems, and did not find a single relic or data site; many wormholes and a few combat sites though. All systems were freshly loaded (offline gates). Is that just a stroke of bad luck, intentional design or a bug? bad luck, I have gone about the same then hit a system with like 20 sigs Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 18:47:00 -
[208] - Quote
no difference in stats for mini-game between a tengu and a heron. using same rigs/modules and the heron is suppose to give a "+10 virus strength to relic and data analyzers" |
Browneye84
Daralux SpaceMonkey's Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 18:55:00 -
[209] - Quote
Would love to try this for myself, if sisi would actually launch! How did you guys get on?
I was on fine last night, now its just stuck with no obvious fix. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1053
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 18:58:00 -
[210] - Quote
Browneye84 wrote:Would love to try this for myself, if sisi would actually launch! How did you guys get on?
I was on fine last night, now its just stuck with no obvious fix. what I did was go into your sisi folder /launcher/cache and run the updater. then relaunch the launcher and it should start to download the new update. That's what worked for me at least Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
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Krak0rz
Oblivion Chaos Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:03:00 -
[211] - Quote
Currently while running some radar/mag sites, I will equip multiple analyzer/hacker modules to help speed things up on the tougher cans.
How is this going to work with the new system? Will equipping more than one hacking module give us better virus strength? Are these modules going to be changed to limit one per ship like DCUs? |
Freyya
Omni Galactic Resource Excavation Inc. Tri-Star Galactic Industries
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:36:00 -
[212] - Quote
I ran into a little snag last night...might be me but did you CCP people forget your own game rules?
Getting into Amarr space with small arms (gotten from exploration) means a small delay at the customs officials... Do you get small arms from Amarr space exploration aswell? Might considder changing the loot to something NOT banned in parts of space.... |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:48:00 -
[213] - Quote
2 data sites in low sec:
Loot a little better today. Got 2 decryptors and a esoteric bp on the first, 2 decryptors and a skillbook on the other. Not quite there yet compared to the old sites but getting closer. The crap loot needs to go. Almost ran out of cargo space in the middle of looting and most if not all people gonna jettison it anyway. I rather grab empty cans. There is no sense of accomplishment from grabbing metal scraps too. So nothing of value to the gameplay lost if you remove it.
In the sites:
Containers still on top of each other. Still objects nearby to get stuck. I understand you want to make the sites look a little unique each but it really doesn't fly well with the loot spew mechanic. Loot spew is still more then plenty. You sure the number have been reduced? Its defo more then 12 cans. About 20 or more i would guess. it's really tedious. repeating myself here but i don't enjoy it at all. Haven't stopped the time but it feels like it takes longer then the old sites to wrap the site up. |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:49:00 -
[214] - Quote
Krak0rz wrote:Currently while running some radar/mag sites, I will equip multiple analyzer/hacker modules to help speed things up on the tougher cans.
How is this going to work with the new system? Will equipping more than one hacking module give us better virus strength? Are these modules going to be changed to limit one per ship like DCUs?
i put on two also but isn't giving me any more on the hacking sites, i'm still only getting 90/20 for hacking sites and 80/20 for the other sites (my arch. skill is 3 and my hacking is 4) |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1053
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:58:00 -
[215] - Quote
tried again, in null sec with the new patch, Abandoned Research Station the containers were separated but I had severe problems with hit boxes, I was "colliding" with the spew container at 5k away which made problems with trying to collect the cans. I was only able to collect a few cans due to the problem. I did find one thing that is of value and that was a "integrated' Ogre BPC the last spew can I could not collect any cans from and I cant figure out why, I was as close as 500m and I could not grab the cans. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1840
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 20:06:00 -
[216] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:the last spew can I could not collect any cans from and I cant figure out why, I was as close as 500m and I could not grab the cans. Probably a desynch from all the bumping around. The more you bump into structures, the more likely it becomes that client and server disagree on your position. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 20:34:00 -
[217] - Quote
I ran a couple lowsec Data and Relic sites, couldn't see much difference tbh. Still haven't seen a single site in k-space where the cans weren't on top of each other. Minigame seems the same except the little graphic update, descriptions of Firewall and Antivirus still the wrong way round. AV Suppressors still too difficult, 2 of them basically mean game over. I'm not sure if there were less spew cans today, didn't really feel like it. I had no lag problems today, but overall loot was still pretty horrible. And there was still surprise contraband in my cargo.
Wasilah wrote:along with they added in some new things and changed the values you get for your hacking thing. pre patch i was 90/30ish now i'm 80/20 and getting my a@@ handed to me lol As far as I can tell there was no rebalance of the minigame or stats at all, just the descriptions of nodes were moved to the corner.
Quote:any chance we could get some kind of stat on the fitting window to tell us where we are at for the hacking/analyzing stats? atm i'm just trying things out and jumping to a site to see what the values are then failing and going back to try something else. That information is available at the same place it was before for the old system, in the attributes of the analyzer module. Where else would it be?
Quote:no difference in stats for mini-game between a tengu and a heron. using same rigs/modules and the heron is suppose to give a "+10 virus strength to relic and data analyzers" Heron does still get +10 on strength, I tested it with a Heron.
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:After a failed Hacking Attempt i was attacked by one Serpentis Frigate. But Soundwave mentioned earlier today that this wouldn't happen anymore. No, he mentioned that it won't be in today's update, but it's in development.
|
Kern Hotha
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 20:51:00 -
[218] - Quote
Clicking on spew containers isn't fun. I can't make my opinion about this any clearer than that. To be pleased with one's limits is a wretched state. -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 21:01:00 -
[219] - Quote
Nullsec Ruined Guristas Science Outpost:
My virus strenght 125/30. Hacking game was hard but not too hard. Lost one of the containers to failing. Containers all on top of each other, bad fps due to the dust still being in there, npc spawns. Loot: 38.7m in salvage. |
Jommis
CRICE Corporation Insidious Associates
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 21:06:00 -
[220] - Quote
Kern Hotha wrote:Clicking on spew containers isn't fun. I can't make my opinion about this any clearer than that.
|
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Sugar Kyle
The humbleless Crew
241
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 21:22:00 -
[221] - Quote
I spent a good chunk of the day scanning and doing these sites in low sec.
The mini game is better. I don't have a lot of opinion on it. Its a lot of clicking. It works.
I'm terribly disappointed in the loot drops. I did all the sites I could find. I won't comment on the broken sites because that has been addressed. I did drop some bug reports in for the sites I found. I expected the loot drops to be comparable to what I could make currently and they were mostly just junk and trash. Tilde soaked words from something kinda like a pirate. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 21:36:00 -
[222] - Quote
I don't even know how the loot drops can be balanced properly. If they raise the drops then two explorers always will get the jackpot and share it among each other (which opens the door to abuse) wheras a solo explorer only gets it with luck. So the whole math that a solo explorer should get half on average what two explorers make running the sites together can't possibly work as promised.
This mechanic is complete nonsense. Imo the sites take long enough with just the hacking game. Please remove the loot spew! Make it a mechanic for mining or whatever but please don't ruin exploration with it. |
Mario delTorres
GBTeam C0VEN
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 22:12:00 -
[223] - Quote
Spew containers is very poor idea.
If you find radar site now: target containter... wait, wait, wait (depends of skill, no thinking ) - dice roll on loot table and profit...
On sisi: target container ... minigame appears (depends of skill and good thinking success or not) - if success - dice roll on loot table. This loot is putted into one, two or three containters, Into another 10 containers (or more) is putted trash and all is spewed into space. You haven't any chance to catch them all, then you haven't 100% chance to get all computer draw for you. Better: you have only 7% chance at most the loot in containter is valuable.
Summary: - In new exploration relic/data you need more skillpoints (differences between Tech1 and tech2 analyzers is about 30%) - you need use your brain a lot, - you need use your mouse to catch little spew containters, (and need to have big monitor), - finally you get less for more.
I Don't like it, sorry, but I very, very don't like it. |
kyofu
Praetorian Black Guard Frater Adhuc Excessum
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 22:19:00 -
[224] - Quote
I have several problems with what has been done to exploration this patch, but loot spew is the worst offender.
I have done 5 or 6 sites in lowsec today. The only thing potentially worth anything I have gotten is something called "Spatial attunement"
My wrists are sore, my eyes are sore and I am extremely frustrated from trying to navigate my Tengu after tiny cans traveling in a difficult to discern direction using a clunky and unresponsive interface. It's funny, the reason I was happy about probe formations (when I thought they were player set) is that it would save my wrists. Loot spew is 100x worse on them.
I don't mind twitch based games, but the engine must be designed for it. The way this is set up it is anti-fun.
All my exploration skills are maxed, I have been exploring for years, and it is what I spend 90% of my time doing. The way this expansion is heading, I will either have to find something else to do in Eve or find another game to play.
The sad part is with the last few changes the mini game isn't bad, and if the loot was integrated into the mini game the change could have some potential. Loot nodes, airlock, item cache nodes its pretty obvious stuff. As has been mentioned loot spew would be a better failure/punishment mechanic. I'm not a huge fan of all the clicking in the mini-game either (add arrow key/awds interface?) but it has potential and at least it doesn't suck. Loot spew sucks. It's unrealistic, illogical, far outside the realm of what your player base wants or expects and most importantly not fun.
Out of curiosity, is there anyone who has tried a site that likes the loot spew mechanic? I have seen some small defense of the intent the developers had, but does anyone actually like the mechanic itself? I don't think I have seen a single positive comment about it, but that doesn't really surprise me. |
Tsubutai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
207
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 22:47:00 -
[225] - Quote
Took a Heron with a virus coherence/strength of 90/30 out through nullsec this evening and eventually found a relic site (Ruined Serpentis Science Outpost) and a data site (Central Serpentis Sparking Transmitter). The five cans in the data site were over 100 km away from the warpin point, which seemed like an odd nuisance. The hacking and loot chasing took around 15 minutes; I was able to access four of the cans successfully and got a total of 37m in loot plus an interface BPC that the game can't price accurately. That seemed OK to me. I then did the relic site, which had six cans, and was able to access all of them. The hacking and looting took around 20 minutes, and I got stuff with a combined value of around 14m, which is not so good.
I don't actually find the spewing and can-chasing mechanics to be all that bad, they just require a slightly different fit than you might otherwise use. As long as your ship is reasonably quick and agile, it's fairly straightforward to nab the cans, and I think that the people who are criticizing it as being twitchy are being excessively hyperbolic - it's a bit more fast-paced than other forms of pve in eve, but quake 3 it is not.
I've now run a fair few of the new relic sites on SiSI but none have dropped any of the Spatial Attunement Units that are required to build the new T2 scanning mods. Obviously, you can't generalize too much from a small number of sites, but it may be worth making sure that the drop rate on those has been tuned to ensure a reasonable supply if the mods are intended to sell at a prices that are comparable to those of other T2 modules.
edit: as an aside, the Restoration Nodes in the nullsec hacking minigames are pretty nasty/annoying because if you can't nuke them as soon as you uncover them, they can very quickly make the game unwinnable. It might be worth toning down the rate at which they boost the coherence of the other defensive nodes, or capping the amount of coherence they can restore - the first time I ran into one, it ended up pumping a firewall up to something like 400 coherence, which is ... not pleasant. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 22:52:00 -
[226] - Quote
kyofu, agree 100%
Basically it is a touch screen tablet game and then a click fest, not really EvE game play...
The developers have been playing other games and found some things they like (they said so at fan fest) and decided to implement them in EvE without thinking what EvE is actually about and its long history of harsh and unforgiving but free and full of unintended better stuff than they could think up.
Why do people play EvE, because its a challenge and time invested along with game knowledge gained pays and keeps people subscribed, dumb it down too much, which will increase competition and will leave lots of people pissed off, it is self defeating in the longer term.
CCP-¦s New Motto: Shiny over Substance |
M'aak'han
C-7
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 23:00:00 -
[227] - Quote
I haven't had time to catch up with the thread, so just throwing some feedback quickly.
Ran a few data and relic sites in lowsec today. Some were "finished", others were still with containers one on top of another. All were Angel sites (not the best ones there is, but heh, didn't have much time to travel)
Hacking minigame needs a less opaque window. The minigame was more challenging this time, but overall quite boring after the 3rd session. I hope the "improvements" will get in soon, otherwise it is just clicking and hoping you don't uncover a strong defence mechanism. I'm not really a fan of it in its current state. And as stated by others, it makes the sites longer to clear. Overall, I managed to open almost all the containers, the few fails only happened on mainframes/remains (damn virus suppressors!) with stats 125/30 and 70/20 for my data analyzer and relic analyzer respectively (no access to my fully skilled exploration char until mirror is completed.)
Spewing cans is still the most tedious and aggravating thing there is in these sites. It's just a pain. Looking forward to testing it with a frig, once the NPC spawns are removed. I was in a Gnosis, it was hell to move around the collidables. And this will have to go with D-scan spamming in low and null sec !! It's just plainly irritating.
Loot seems still completely off to me (maybe I was really unlucky though), but I barely grabbed 16 M once, and all the other sites were just crap (say 1-2 M tops) Very frustrating, that's a LOT of mouse clicks for almost nothing. Combine this with the increased time needed to clear the site, and the income vs time spent is just going down the drain all the more.
I've liked exploration a lot until now, but I don't see myself going on with this activity unless the loot far outweights the excessive frustration of this spewing mechanism. At least, until now, it wasn't really "fun", but it wasn't tedious neither. From now on, it will just be a painful clickfest. I can only see some potential of fun in the minigame, once it has been completely fleshed out (not yet there though...) |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 23:39:00 -
[228] - Quote
M'aak'han wrote:I've liked exploration a lot until now, but I don't see myself going on with this activity unless the loot far outweights the excessive frustration of this spewing mechanism.
Same. I don't see myself running these sites if it stays like this. With just the hacking game i'll be content with old loot drops and run them when i feel like it. With the loot spew intact the sites better have really, really good loot otherwise a fool who doesn't spent his time with combat sites instead as far as exploration goes. |
Circumstantial Evidence
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 00:33:00 -
[229] - Quote
Loot has never been consistent in exploration sites, unlike combat where you can put a consistent isk value on them. The draw is the rare jackpot: I have sat near hack cans for 10 minutes, to get nothing. The new method can reward me with nothing much faster, so that I can move on to another site more quickly (and easier scanning helps, too.)
So far I think they've said potential loot - if you could scoop all of it - will be doubled compared to today, plus will include new rare items such as capital rig T2 BPC's and faction POS BPC's. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 02:56:00 -
[230] - Quote
If you don't mind the grind more power to you. Personaly i think i will burn out very quickly running these sites. I do 2-3 sites on Sisi and can't stand looking at the cans anymore. Never felt like this about the old sites even tho they arn't that fun either. So the only thing that can motivate me to run the sites in their current form are good loot drops. Perhaps that could change if the hacking game is fleshed out more and gives awayy more of a feeling of adventure and finding cool new things. If not then i'll stick with combat sites for exploration and don't bother about profession sites anymore. |
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Shade Millith
I'm Really Bored
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 03:31:00 -
[231] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:I want to correct a slight misunderstanding. This was a miscommunication between me and Soundwave about the NPC removal and I apologize for not spotting this earlier.
NPCs are not being removed from wormhole sites.
We are only removing NPCs from "normal" k-space hacking and archaeology signatures (NPCs will only spawn in those sites when you fail at the challenge). No changes are being made to NPCs in wormholes or COSMOS or other hacking/archaeology sites.
The reason for the removal is to allow explorers to play the game without having a combat ship on standby.
That's a pretty big load of worry removed, to be honest.
I am still wondering about Grav sites though, and if you're intending to make them anoms in WormHoles as well. I can't shake the feeling that this is just going to cause them to be much, much too dangerous to actually use.
|
Flamespar
Woof Club
599
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 04:38:00 -
[232] - Quote
My feedback.
Hacking mini game. Far too easy. No sense of strategy or urgency. All it amounts to is a bunch of additional clicks before getting loot. These need to be harder. Maybe have a mobile virus deactivating your nodes or something similar.
Scatter mechanic. Not immediately obvious what the different colours mean. What does yellow mean for example. Larger icons for the cans would be better too. Filled in circles for example. Overall, I dont enjoy the scatter mechanic. Also given that it's twitch based, will players with a higher ping be at a disadvantage?
Loot. Seems to be pretty ordinary. This could be because the loot tables need work, or because it's not obvious what you need to do in order to get better loot. I was testing in low sec.
Clouds Love the particle clouds. Will these particles bee disturbed by the movement of the ship? I can post on a forum, therefore I represent everyone. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 05:31:00 -
[233] - Quote
I suppose I'm fairly strange. I must be the only person on the test server who actually likes the new hacking minigame compared to the old "run module, wait, get bacon - or not" mechanic. I much prefer being involved in the hacking mechanism than passively waiting for the module to cycle and the RNG gods to say "You are worthy".
The scattering mechanic... well.. I don't hate it. It's not completely awful. I do agree though that it would be better as a failure mechanic instead. FAR better, indeed. |
Itis Zhellin
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 06:24:00 -
[234] - Quote
Pros: I like the improvements on the mini games, looks much more better and interesting. Is not the pointless clickfest that was few days ago. I love the new structures spawned in these sites, finally something good looking not just some old and boring structures filled with dust. EVE need a visual upgrade so it will not look like some browser game for 90's.
Cons: How I supose to hack these sites with a cov op?!? If I fail, a pirate cruiser is spawning and with a Helios or Buzzard I have no other choice than just gtfo. CCP Soundwave, you said that there will be no npc's in these sites, but still they are spawning on fail. You want more teamwork, but exploration is mostly a solo activity.. for example I had no chance to team up with anyone on SiSi to test these sites, everybody seems too busy to pvp, test ships &stuff. Also greed is good.
Now, I see a couple of solution to this problem: Instead of spawning a npc, set up a booby trap on fail that will damage our ship. Is much more logical than a npc that span out of nowhere and we have no chance to defend. Second choice... give us an extra high slot for the cov ops so we can fit a gun or launcher. Or a bigger drone bay. Only 1 drone is completely pointless in these circumstances even if is a T2 hobo. A simple T1 indy ship has much more options for defense than a cov op that require a lot of skills and time for training. |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
47
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 07:45:00 -
[235] - Quote
Itis Zhellin wrote: Cons: How I supose to hack these sites with a cov op?!? If I fail, a pirate cruiser is spawning and with a Helios or Buzzard I have no other choice than just gtfo. CCP Soundwave, you said that there will be no npc's in these sites, but still they are spawning on fail. You want more teamwork, but exploration is mostly a solo activity.. for example I had no chance to team up with anyone on SiSi to test these sites, everybody seems too busy to pvp, test ships &stuff. Also greed is good.
Now, I see a couple of solution to this problem: Instead of spawning a npc, set up a booby trap on fail that will damage our ship. Is much more logical than a npc that span out of nowhere and we have no chance to defend. Second choice... give us an extra high slot for the cov ops so we can fit a gun or launcher. Or a bigger drone bay. Only 1 drone is completely pointless in these circumstances even if is a T2 hobo. A simple T1 indy ship has much more options for defense than a cov op that require a lot of skills and time for training.
Soundwave said that there will be no NPC-Spawns in those sites at release. NPC-Spawns only in Wormhole-Space. Also they want to implement a mechanic that if you failed to hack container #1, for example, there will be more containers spewed out if you succeed in hacking the next container. |
Space Wanderer
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 07:46:00 -
[236] - Quote
Tried a data site in null sec. Seemed much harder than those in highsec. I hope that the difference in loot between high and nullsec is justufied. |
Itis Zhellin
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 07:54:00 -
[237] - Quote
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote: Soundwave said that there will be no NPC-Spawns in those sites at release. NPC-Spawns only in Wormhole-Space. Also they want to implement a mechanic that if you failed to hack container #1, for example, there will be more containers spewed out if you succeed in hacking the next container.
Then it's bugged. Hacked 2 sites in hi and low sec, booth spawned a npc cruiser on fail, so I had to get out as I had no defence modules on my Helios, only a single lame drone. |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
47
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 07:58:00 -
[238] - Quote
Itis Zhellin wrote:Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote: Soundwave said that there will be no NPC-Spawns in those sites at release. NPC-Spawns only in Wormhole-Space. Also they want to implement a mechanic that if you failed to hack container #1, for example, there will be more containers spewed out if you succeed in hacking the next container.
Then it's bugged. Hacked 2 sites in hi and low sec, booth spawned a npc cruiser on fail, so I had to get out as I had no defence modules on my Helios, only a single lame drone.
As I said - no npc's at release. Yes, right now there still might be NPCspawns if you fail to hack, but they are working on it right now to get rid of it. ;) Only a matter of time.
See this post.
CCP Soundwave wrote:Stuff thatGÇÖs in development and relevant to feedback posted in this thread:
- One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel
this make the profession more coherent.
- WeGÇÖre looking into the scatter container brackets. Anything from increasing size, changing their icons depending on loot category etc is on the board, to make them easier to interact with.
- Sleeper sites will not have their NPCs removed.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
462
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:04:00 -
[239] - Quote
Where do you guys find all the sites? Wanted to do a test yesterday, but had not much time and couldn't find any sites. It's really not optimal that we have to waste so much time on finding the sites we're supposed to test... there should be several of them in every system on Sisi. . |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:09:00 -
[240] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Where do you guys find all the sites? Wanted to do a test yesterday, but had not much time and couldn't find any sites. It's really not optimal that we have to waste so much time on finding the sites we're supposed to test... there should be several of them in every system on Sisi.
They're everywhere, mostly. Just watch your scanner. An interesting technique now that the Discovery Scanner has been linked to the Probe Scanner is that you can jump into a system, wait a bit, and if there are any sites in that system they'll appear in the list on the Probe Scanner. Then all you have to do is probe them down like normal, ignoring any that say "Combat" or "Wormhole" once they're past 25%. |
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
462
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:10:00 -
[241] - Quote
Then I must have been unlucky, scanned two systems and didn't find any so I just assumed they were still as rare as on TQ. . |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1476
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:11:00 -
[242] - Quote
Itis Zhellin wrote:
Cons: How I supose to hack these sites with a cov op?!? If I fail, a pirate cruiser is spawning and with a Helios or Buzzard I have no other choice than just gtfo. CCP Soundwave, you said that there will be no npc's in these sites, but still they are spawning on fail. You want more teamwork, but exploration is mostly a solo activity.. for example I had no chance to team up with anyone on SiSi to test these sites, everybody seems too busy to pvp, test ships &stuff. Also greed is good.
Now, I see a couple of solution to this problem: Instead of spawning a npc, set up a booby trap on fail that will damage our ship. Is much more logical than a npc that span out of nowhere and we have no chance to defend. Second choice... give us an extra high slot for the cov ops so we can fit a gun or launcher. Or a bigger drone bay. Only 1 drone is completely pointless in these circumstances even if is a T2 hobo. A simple T1 indy ship has much more options for defense than a cov op that require a lot of skills and time for training.
The NPC is understandable as a "punishment" for failure and a bar of entry. However, when going inline with exploration there should be other ways to deal with that. Like switch the NPC to sentries that spawn, and have the player either gun mine the sentries or add another hacking node to disable sentries. Ofc they would spawn and have a delay before opening fire.
Having no set entry bar when it comes to these sites, is a risky move. Especially when it comes to 0.0/Low sites CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:18:00 -
[243] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:I ran a couple lowsec Data and Relic sites, couldn't see much difference tbh. Still haven't seen a single site in k-space where the cans weren't on top of each other. Minigame seems the same except the little graphic update, descriptions of Firewall and Antivirus still the wrong way round. AV Suppressors still too difficult, 2 of them basically mean game over. I'm not sure if there were less spew cans today, didn't really feel like it. I had no lag problems today, but overall loot was still pretty horrible. And there was still surprise contraband in my cargo. Wasilah wrote:along with they added in some new things and changed the values you get for your hacking thing. pre patch i was 90/30ish now i'm 80/20 and getting my a@@ handed to me lol As far as I can tell there was no rebalance of the minigame or stats at all, just the descriptions of nodes were moved to the corner. Quote:any chance we could get some kind of stat on the fitting window to tell us where we are at for the hacking/analyzing stats? atm i'm just trying things out and jumping to a site to see what the values are then failing and going back to try something else. That information is available at the same place it was before for the old system, in the attributes of the analyzer module. Where else would it be? Quote:no difference in stats for mini-game between a tengu and a heron. using same rigs/modules and the heron is suppose to give a "+10 virus strength to relic and data analyzers" Heron does still get +10 on strength, I tested it with a Heron. Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:After a failed Hacking Attempt i was attacked by one Serpentis Frigate. But Soundwave mentioned earlier today that this wouldn't happen anymore. No, he mentioned that it won't be in today's update, but it's in development.
stupid site removed all my editing, will fix it later. |
Itis Zhellin
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:19:00 -
[244] - Quote
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:As I said - no npc's at release. Yes, right now there still might be NPCspawns if you fail to hack, but they are working on it right now to get rid of it. ;) Only a matter of time. See this post. Ok, thanks for the info. Until then I will try to test in a destroyer.. actually I'm curios to see how hard is to scan these new sites with a combat ship.
Terrorfrodo wrote:Where do you guys find all the sites? Wanted to do a test yesterday, but had not much time and couldn't find any sites. It's really not optimal that we have to waste so much time on finding the sites we're supposed to test... there should be several of them in every system on Sisi. It's hard to find them in hi or low sec. Took me around 8J to find one in hi sec, but was much more easy to find another in low sec. I took a route from 6C down to the low sec FW areas.
Brooks Puuntai wrote:The NPC is understandable as a "punishment" for failure and a bar of entry. However, when going inline with exploration there should be other ways to deal with that. Like switch the NPC to sentries that spawn, and have the player either gun mine the sentries or add another hacking node to disable sentries. Ofc they would spawn and have a delay before opening fire.
Having no set entry bar when it comes to these sites, is a risky move. Especially when it comes to 0.0/Low sites Well, good luck then doing exploration with a cov op. Or any ship dedicated for exploration but with no defence modules.
Still, I would like to see a booby trap trigered on fail so you have the sense of danger and fear of failing. I can fit a rep on the cov op, so taking a burst of damage would something that I could still manage. Fail once, the damage is low. Fail more... you may wanna pay more attention on the hacking process if you wanna keep the ship :P |
|
CCP Bayesian
763
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:20:00 -
[245] - Quote
Wasilah wrote:no difference in stats for mini-game between a tengu and a heron. using same rigs/modules and the heron is suppose to give a "+10 virus strength to relic and data analyzers"
Thanks will pass this along as a defect to the relevant people. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:23:00 -
[246] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Thanks will pass this along as a defect to the relevant people.
while your at it poke them to get those rigs switched over also
just to add this in, took a screen shot of my hacking screen. this is in my tengu
tengu hacking |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:29:00 -
[247] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:It seems that for the most part the pinata/spew/vomit of loot is not a welcome change. Unfortunately CCP does not seem interested in dropping it nor the player feedback on it.
The mini game appears to be improving and with the hope that this hacking game could be used for additional purposes (hacking POS passwords, hack jet cans etc) CCP appears to be on an interesting track. Especially since this mechanic will likely not be dropped either.
So if the hacking could be used in many other aspects of the game it seems the loot spray should also be shared with other activities too. For example, pvp sees a lot and i mean a lot of violent decompression of ships unlike what could be controlled decompression of exploration sites. It seems appropriate then that loot spew mechanic be added to player ships that blow up. Come to think of it, all ships, player or rat, pvp or pve, should spew their contents due to their violent ends.
Yes, this would add a great deal of sense and realism to the game. Actually, with each explosion should come a pre set particle cloud based on ship size. The more explosions the more particles adding to the chaos of battle. Frapsing those battles would be spectacular!
CCP, make it so!
The resulting server-melt might leave us playing EVE Online: Liquid Silicon. |
|
CCP Bayesian
763
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:30:00 -
[248] - Quote
Wasilah, I fixed that yesterday, so hopefully the Virus Supressor won't be quite so err... deadly. Sadly it was post patch so will appear when Sisi gets updated again. I also just fixed the descriptions of the Firewall and Anti-Virus.
There is also a visual issue at the moment where the Virus Suppressor doesn't visually return your strength to the correct amount. The logic is correct it's just the client isn't displaying the information correctly. It gets updated on the next action to change the Virus though. That should be fixed soon as well.
There are also some known issues of actions that have no effect counting as a 'turn'. We're fixing that just now. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 08:40:00 -
[249] - Quote
Since the hacking and analyzing rigs are going to do the same thing now (modify your virus properties) is it possible/reasonable to just merge the two rigs into one that modifies the virus instead of the modules, or failing that change one rig to modify virus strength and the other to modify coherency? It feels a bit redundant at the moment using two rigs to modify the same thing across two nearly-identical modules (especially with talk of possibly merging the modules in the future and using scripts), although that may just be me. |
|
CCP Bayesian
763
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 09:05:00 -
[250] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco, we could go one of two ways, distinguish Archaeology more from Hacking again so they are both unique or fold everything into Hacking. Hacking has more applicability as a transferable skill into more areas of EVE so we'll see as we broach where things are going to go more long term from here. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
|
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2519
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 09:23:00 -
[251] - Quote
Freyya wrote:I ran into a little snag last night...might be me but did you CCP people forget your own game rules?
Getting into Amarr space with small arms (gotten from exploration) means a small delay at the customs officials... Do you get small arms from Amarr space exploration aswell? Might considder changing the loot to something NOT banned in parts of space....
And yes, you get small arms from Amarr sites.... not quite usefull is it..
Will look into this. |
|
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
47
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 09:25:00 -
[252] - Quote
If i had a choice between having Archaeology and Hacking for PvE or having ONLY Hacking but in a broader meaning (Hacking in PvP please!), then get rid of Archaeology. But you created those nice new relic sites... hold onto Archaeology and Hacking, but also do something that Hacking is more meaningful in the rest of the game. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1476
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 09:32:00 -
[253] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Freyya wrote:I ran into a little snag last night...might be me but did you CCP people forget your own game rules?
Getting into Amarr space with small arms (gotten from exploration) means a small delay at the customs officials... Do you get small arms from Amarr space exploration aswell? Might considder changing the loot to something NOT banned in parts of space....
And yes, you get small arms from Amarr sites.... not quite usefull is it.. Will look into this.
This also applies to secondary faction space, such as Khanid.
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
|
CCP Bayesian
764
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 09:33:00 -
[254] - Quote
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:If i had a choice between having Archaeology and Hacking for PvE or having ONLY Hacking but in a broader meaning (Hacking in PvP please!), then get rid of Archaeology. But you created those nice new relic sites... hold onto Archaeology and Hacking, but also do something that Hacking is more meaningful in the rest of the game.
I didn't mean to suggest it would be either/or but explain why some things look a touch redundant at the moment. It gives more scope for the future and doesn't remove things that already exist.
We'll most definitely be iterating on Hacking first since it exists and lots of people really want to hack more stuff. :) EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
|
CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2519
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 09:34:00 -
[255] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Freyya wrote:I ran into a little snag last night...might be me but did you CCP people forget your own game rules?
Getting into Amarr space with small arms (gotten from exploration) means a small delay at the customs officials... Do you get small arms from Amarr space exploration aswell? Might considder changing the loot to something NOT banned in parts of space....
And yes, you get small arms from Amarr sites.... not quite usefull is it.. Will look into this. This also applies to secondary faction space, such as Khanid.
Tallest just told me he's taken illegal items out of the loot tables. Should show up soon on Sisi. |
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Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
47
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 09:42:00 -
[256] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:If i had a choice between having Archaeology and Hacking for PvE or having ONLY Hacking but in a broader meaning (Hacking in PvP please!), then get rid of Archaeology. But you created those nice new relic sites... hold onto Archaeology and Hacking, but also do something that Hacking is more meaningful in the rest of the game. I didn't mean to suggest it would be either/or but explain why some things look a touch redundant at the moment. It gives more scope for the future and doesn't remove things that already exist. We'll most definitely be iterating on Hacking first since it exists and lots of people really want to hack more stuff. :)
That's great to hear! There were a lot of good ideads how to have new gameplay areas of hacking (PvP) in the comments of the last Hacking Dev Blog. I'm excited to see what you are going to do with it. But now back to topic.
I do have a question regarding the loot-table / can-spawn of the new sites. Is there a %-chance that Container"Highvalue-loot" drops after hacking, or is there a distribution which is fixed (4/12 are material-cans, 4/12 are equipment-cans, 1/12 is high value can)? |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1476
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 09:59:00 -
[257] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Tallest just told me he's taken illegal items out of the loot tables. Should show up soon on Sisi.
Now just take out the "spew" mechanic and we will be golden.
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
Freyya
Omni Galactic Resource Excavation Inc. Tri-Star Galactic Industries
55
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 09:59:00 -
[258] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Freyya wrote:I ran into a little snag last night...might be me but did you CCP people forget your own game rules?
Getting into Amarr space with small arms (gotten from exploration) means a small delay at the customs officials... Do you get small arms from Amarr space exploration aswell? Might considder changing the loot to something NOT banned in parts of space....
And yes, you get small arms from Amarr sites.... not quite usefull is it.. Will look into this. This also applies to secondary faction space, such as Khanid. Tallest just told me he's taken illegal items out of the loot tables. Should show up soon on Sisi.
That's a positive at least, i must admit i'd much rather see all that crap loot go (metal scraps ahem...) and it being replaced with at least something usefull. Like i said in another thread; if i want tons of useless crap filling up my cargo i'll go heist some NPC haulers. They carry enough of it already.
Fill the loot tables with items used in manufacturing or T3 production or something. Low volume, low value items but more usefull. I'm still strugling to see where the actual exploration is at since i'm not really exploring anything. In a perfect world i'd love to see escalations coming from arch or hacking. Loot containers containing logs of travelers about strange places leading to new discoveries. Get sent all across the universe (not too much ofcourse, damn those nullbear camps ) and making mince meat of puzzle pieces explaining lore about the old races or something.
Loot from NPC's used to contain (or still do, can't tell) logs of events and systems where you could find something. Anything along those lines would make exploration feel like actual exploration. The only exploring we're doing right now is check the sensor overlay of every system to see if there's something to be hacked. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 10:06:00 -
[259] - Quote
Couple of things.
I assume the illegal item removal hasn't passed along to SiSi yet, since I just now got enough Small Arms from a Ruined Serpentis Crystal Site (some name along those lines) to arm all the Militants I've gotten from L4 missions.
Which leads me to my next thing...
Is the Ruined Serpentis Crystal Site still supposed to have that enormous bulky Black Monolith still in it, getting in the way of everything? The hacking containers are inside the monolith, which absolutely lives up to its name, meaning that unless you're already in the path of the spew containers that particular hacking success is basically a wash-out as far as looting goes. |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
47
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 10:23:00 -
[260] - Quote
In my opinion CCP has to do something about the invisible bumbing-range models of all the structurs ingame. Its annoying if you can't get to the containers, which are drifting away, only because there are hundreds of meters of invisible walls.
Also imagine yourself inside this structure, while hacking, someone warps in and attacks you. you are dead. no way to get out of this invisible walls in time. i hope they will arrange the spew containers far enough from any bigger structure. |
|
|
CCP Bayesian
766
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 10:29:00 -
[261] - Quote
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:In my opinion CCP has to do something about the invisible bumbing-range models of all the structurs ingame. Its annoying if you can't get to the containers, which are drifting away, only because there are hundreds of meters of invisible walls.
Also imagine yourself inside this structure, while hacking, someone warps in and attacks you. you are dead. no way to get out of this invisible walls in time. i hope they will arrange the spew containers far enough from any bigger structure.
That's the plan. If you come across some particularly bad examples can you let us know what the site is called so we can check it. :) EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Rob Crowley
State War Academy
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 10:34:00 -
[262] - Quote
I can't try this on SiSi cause scanning is completely broken with the latest build, but what happens if you tractor a spew can and your cargo is full? I'm asking this mainly because one of the regular "good" loot drops of radar sites are interface parts, which are pretty worthless but can take quite a lot of space (1m-¦ per unit and they often drop in stacks of 50-100). So if you have a loot explosion and pick up a big stack of those parts filling up your cargo, what happens to the other spew cans from the same explosion which could potentially have valuable stuff like decryptors? As I said I haven't tested it but I suspect you can't pick up anything else till you free up some cargo space and by that time the spew cans are probably gone.
Just throwing out an idea here: would it be possible to somehow gather the contents of tractored spew cans somewhere else than your cargo and you'd be able to pick up (or leave) stuff when you're done? That would have the additional benefit that your cargo doesn't get littered with all that useless junk from the "empty" spew cans. Not everybody is as dedicated to metal scraps collecting as me.
If the idea above isn't deemed possible or desirable, could the size of interface parts be significantly reduced? Like by a factor of 100. Cause filling up someone's cargo with huge surprise stuff is only slightly better than filling it up with illegal surprise stuff. I can't think of any balance or other reason why these parts would have to be this big. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
593
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 10:39:00 -
[263] - Quote
How does the lack of rats interact with players trying to hunt people doing exploration?
As far as I can tell, while exploring, when someone warps into your site you just instantly cloak up and run a mwd pulse since there are no rats to lock you.
Apart from running into a gatecamp, what risk is there in doing exploration, particularly since a t1 fit t1 frigate can now run sites just as well as a 4 billion isk bear tengu? |
Rytell Tybat
Kallocain Pharmaceuticals
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 10:45:00 -
[264] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Alvatore DiMarco, we could go one of two ways, distinguish Archaeology more from Hacking again so they are both unique or fold everything into Hacking. Hacking has more applicability as a transferable skill into more areas of EVE so we'll see as we broach where things are going to go more long term from here.
Really hope that you guys iterate quite a bit on this in the future. It would be a shame to just fold everything into Hacking. Would be great to have a completely different experience for Hacking and Archeology. Something more to differentiate them than a module or skin on the mini-game. Perhaps one requires more cooperation with other players than the other? Or maybe a completely different mini-game for archeology? More time required? Larger environment to cover?
I confess I haven't tried the new stuff on the test server, but I am looking forward to Odyssey and the future iterations. |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 10:54:00 -
[265] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:How does the lack of rats interact with players trying to hunt people doing exploration?
As far as I can tell, while exploring, when someone warps into your site you just instantly cloak up and run a mwd pulse since there are no rats to lock you.
Apart from running into a gatecamp, what risk is there in doing exploration, particularly since a t1 fit t1 frigate can now run sites just as well as a 4 billion isk bear tengu?
Dont worry. There is no risk. I won't be standing cloaked behind the structure, waiting for you to finish playing the minigame and gathering all the cans. And I won't blow you up afterwards to take your loot. |
Itis Zhellin
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 11:26:00 -
[266] - Quote
Freyya wrote:Fill the loot tables with items used in manufacturing or T3 production or something. Low volume, low value items but more usefull. I'm still strugling to see where the actual exploration is at since i'm not really exploring anything. In a perfect world i'd love to see escalations coming from arch or hacking. Loot containers containing logs of travelers about strange places leading to new discoveries. Get sent all across the universe (not too much ofcourse, damn those nullbear camps ) and making mince meat of puzzle pieces explaining lore about the old races or something. Loot from NPC's used to contain (or still do, can't tell) logs of events and systems where you could find something. Anything along those lines would make exploration feel like actual exploration. The only exploring we're doing right now is check the sensor overlay of every system to see if there's something to be hacked. This! Looting these sites is maybe the most frustrating thing I ever done in a game. Clicking on those small containers is just nerve wrecking. And all this just to find some trash that someone dumped it into these sites. As an archaeologist/explorer I would love to find some old relics, clues about a hidden treasure, old alien civilization, stuff about the history of EVE. Something that I can bring back to my pos or station for further investigation and where I can attempt to decrypt/hack it. And when I manage to do that I'm sent into an epic quest to discover something that might change the history or.. fill my hungry wallet. As it is now, I don't see any major improvement on exploration, mostly a pale facelift. Scan, warp in, clickfest, done.
I also found a lot of small arms in these containers, no custom officers had anything against except those from Jita. And they opened a communication channel while I was jumping into Jita.. so I got stuck into an endless jump animation until I agreed to drop the crap. Wonder what could happen if I refused to do so.
Doing exploration in a Myrmidon is not different from by doing it in a Helios or Buzzard. :| |
Xer Jin
DIVERGENT PROXY
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 11:32:00 -
[267] - Quote
i warped in to some wh data sites earlier today and found that the dust clouds crushed my frame rate down to 3-4 fps this needs to be fixed or put an option to turn them off there is no way i would be able to grab a spew can lick this effectively preventing me from doing any exploration in a site that has these dust clouds it was a digital frontier nexus
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Xer Jin
DIVERGENT PROXY
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 11:33:00 -
[268] - Quote
can you put the spew can on the overview plz there are too small and hard to click on |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 11:35:00 -
[269] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Alvatore DiMarco, we could go one of two ways, distinguish Archaeology more from Hacking again so they are both unique or fold everything into Hacking. Hacking has more applicability as a transferable skill into more areas of EVE so we'll see as we broach where things are going to go more long term from here.
This is inspired by Freyyas post:
To make the new sites actualy about exploration and explorers working as a group if they want to: For data sites create 99 unique data discs. One of each spawns in every site with a chance to grab it. 33 in hisec, 33 in low sec, 33 in nullsec to involve explorers in all parts of the game. The discs are not traded on the market but players can trade them among each other or on contracts. Extra source of income for those who don't care, collectors items for thoese who just collect and don't mind exploration. When a player has collected all 99 an expedition pops up in his journal and the discs disappear from the inventory (so he can't create unlimited expeditions). This expedition comes in multiple stages which lead around the Eve universe. Each stage has more valuable loot then your average exploration sites. But the expedition can end on any stage. To reach the final one is a very rare occurence. But the reward is immense. A unique item for the explorer and a piece of lore revealed about a new technology (could be a mod or ship that will make it into one of the next patches or expansions). This is so rare that it will make Eve news and everybod can read about the name of the explorer. Say this should happen once a year. After that a new cycle begins with new data discs.
The same idea can apply to the archeology sites, except players will find ship logs and in the final expedition the reward is a unique artifact from old times and a piece of lore from Eve's past is revealed to the world. |
marVLs
159
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 11:54:00 -
[270] - Quote
So i make Relic and Data sites and:
- mini game is ok and easy, tbh it's a little dump and only about clicking but it's ok for me
- containers catching is terrible and frustrating, nothing more need to say, it's bad idea, change it
- loot value is bad
Overall in this state im sure i won't do those sites nowhere, especially in LS... |
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Space Wanderer
75
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 11:56:00 -
[271] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Alvatore DiMarco, we could go one of two ways, distinguish Archaeology more from Hacking again so they are both unique or fold everything into Hacking. Hacking has more applicability as a transferable skill into more areas of EVE so we'll see as we broach where things are going to go more long term from here.
I hope you guys will go the way to distinguish more the two professions, especially considering that "exploration" entails also looking in ancient stuff. We have all those sleeper, talocan, yun-jang, and another-one-i-dont-remember, which would be more justifid by archeology.
On the other hand, i realize it's going to be a lot of work, so I don't mind if you guys want to first iterate and polish one system (hacking), before working on the other one.
Just don't kill systems and professions, expand on them, even though it might take time. |
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CCP Bayesian
766
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 12:02:00 -
[272] - Quote
Johan Toralen, these sorts of updates would be great but the main problem is that it takes one player doing it one time to post the results and its no longer exploration. Either that or there needs to be a massive amount of content generated. Now we could procedurally generate that but again there are limits particularly if we want to incorporate EVE lore. Either way other players tend to break systems down very quickly and tell you how they work which is why the current 'Exploration' is a reasonably mundane activity lots of people engage in and doesn't actually feel like exploration. A system as you describe would be broken down that way very, very quickly. Which is not to say we should seed lore content into space, it's just not a very sustainable gameplay system for exploration.
Exploration essentially has to involve going into the unknown and making it known whilst having adventures. This can only really happen if the universe is reasonably dynamic and more unpredictable. Probably the best way of doing that is giving players the tools to shape the universe and making the universe itself more dynamic. That way exploration isn't some content you chew through but a continuous use of tools in the Universe to understand it in order to do something meaningful.
Essentially if any player from a completely new character through to a ten year vet can have perfect information about the Universe and it's contents true exploration is never going to exist. That way exploration to a vet is understanding the dynamics of the universe. Whereas almost everything feels like exploration to the new player, which is the case at the moment really if they don't look at all the guides etc.
That's my take on it anyway. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
411
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 12:17:00 -
[273] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote: (...) This is the first thing I want to put in post-release as not only does it make things much more interesting, it adds in a new way for hacking to generate income and the current design goes against our no closed systems design principle.
(...)
This is a start, not the end. :)
Any other comment about this method ? For me, releasing an unfinished feature and improving it a few weeks later should be for the test-server only. We are not talking about a fix or something that has a high priority, we are talking about a rewamp of something functional (btw there were so many other things to rewamp first... *ahem* POSes *cough* *cough*).
Also, I'm still waiting for this new version of Planetary Interaction... Oh wait, we already know what happens to unfinished-but-somehow-stable features in Eve.
The probabilities to see an interesting minigame post Odyssey 1.0 are thus extremely low. (But of course CCP Bayesian's vision sounds promising) G££ <= Me |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 12:21:00 -
[274] - Quote
CCP Bayesian how about a toned down version at least along the lines of combat site escalation? Like players can find artifact puzzles or data discs in nodes of the minigame. They are not tradable, could just be a cryptic message in the journal. Say once player stumpled upon 5 that belong together he's rewarded with an expedition to a system that he never visited before. (or random system should a player actualy have visited each and every k-space system). This should be much easier to implement but still provide some sense of exploration. |
|
CCP Bayesian
768
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 12:32:00 -
[275] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Any other comment about this method ? For me, releasing an unfinished feature and improving it a few weeks later should be for the test-server only. We are not talking about a fix or something that has a high priority, we are talking about a rewamp of something functional (btw there were so many other things to rewamp first... *ahem* POSes *cough* *cough*).
Also, I'm still waiting for this new version of Planetary Interaction... Oh wait, we already know what happens to unfinished-but-somehow-stable features in Eve.
The probabilities to see an interesting minigame post Odyssey 1.0 are thus extremely low.
Based on past performance I can see why people are skeptical that we will continue to improve features immediately post-release. Planetary Interaction is a good example of a feature that could really do with some more depth added to it. However if people say "why aren't you revamping system X instead" then we always be releasing and abandoning things. Once something is out the best time to improve it is immediately afterwards.
To answer the "unfinished feature" point. We aren't releasing anything unfinished. We're releasing what we consider the minimum amount to consider the feature complete. That doesn't mean we've not got ideas that ended up on the cutting room floor because that's the nature of the developing any project that needs to fit within a set timeline. It also doesn't mean we are satisfied with the current state of things. It means as you note that the feature is functional and goes towards what we would ultimately like to achieve. It also lets us see how things fit in and interact with the live universe which is inherently different to any test server. Particularly when considering features that rely much more on player interaction. Improving iteratively is just sensible from this point of view in terms of validating what we are doing.
EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
|
CCP Bayesian
770
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 12:37:00 -
[276] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:CCP Bayesian how about a toned down version at least along the lines of combat site escalation? Like players can find artifact puzzles or data discs in nodes of the minigame. They are not tradable, could just be a cryptic message in the journal. Say once player stumpled upon 5 that belong together he's rewarded with an expedition to a system that he never visited before. (or random system should a player actualy have visited each and every k-space system). This should be much easier to implement but still provide some sense of exploration.
I definitely think some sort of mechanic that lead players around the universe would be good. There have been players in the past who have made it a goal to visit everything in the Universe. The question is whether doing that through collectables is actually exploration or just forcing people that are 'collectors' to go exploring. There is a difference between wanting to find new stuff but not knowing what that would be and wanting to get things you know exist.
Anyway, we're derailing the feedback thread so maybe we could shift this into a new thread in the Features & Ideas forum. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 12:41:00 -
[277] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Exploration essentially has to involve going into the unknown and making it known whilst having adventures. This can only really happen if the universe is reasonably dynamic and more unpredictable..
Exploration is now, enter system, all content delivered straight to he player with the new overview scanner that happens no matter what the player wants.... Launch a super probe, get 100% result in 4 or 5 moves, 2 or 3 if highly skilled, go play tablet orientated mini game that will have limitations and be know entity within a week and click on spew cans, spew being a slang word for Vomit, the only risk being your frigate will be attacked by a rat if you fail, a rat that 2 drones can handle.
So how do you equate that with "Exploration essentially has to involve going into the unknown and making it known"....
Old system, everything hidden apart from DED 1 and 2-¦s for the rookies and low skilled (even older system was warp to celestial and do 4AU on-board scan, that was exploration in its truest sense) so you had to EXPLORE, that is, make a decision to gain skills, launch probes and search in a ship that had to be capable of handling whatever you found and wanted to exploit.
CCP-¦s New Motto: Shiny over Substance |
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CCP Bayesian
770
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 12:52:00 -
[278] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo, you seem to have not noticed I said this in the very same post:
"'Exploration' is a reasonably mundane activity lots of people engage in and doesn't actually feel like exploration."
We have a system of limited content that is called Exploration. That does not mean it in anyway supports actual exploration which to me means actually exploring the Universe not visiting sites to do a known action in them. We've made that system much more dynamic than it was by adding in the ability to actually hack the sites, a game feature that could easily be rolled out elsewhere so it's less limited to just this static content.
Anyway as said previously please take this discussion to the Feature & Ideas forum so we don't mess up the feedback thread with future speculation on what actual exploration could be. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 13:07:00 -
[279] - Quote
A universe of opportunity to claim
EVE Online's nineteenth free expansion, Odyssey, offers new tools for exploring the stars, challenges you to breach the unknown for adventure and rewards, and to face what lies on the other side. A re-imagined scanning system, intuitive navigation and new exploration modules will aid you as you search the heavens for your next conquest. Some will encounter sites never discovered before.
There is now more among the stars, enticing even the most experienced veterans to explore. |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 13:08:00 -
[280] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Brainless Bimbo, you seem to have not noticed I said this in the very same post:
"'Exploration' is a reasonably mundane activity lots of people engage in and doesn't actually feel like exploration."
We have a system of limited content that is called Exploration. That does not mean it in anyway supports actual exploration which to me means actually exploring the Universe not visiting sites to do a known action in them. We've made that system much more dynamic than it was by adding in the ability to actually hack the sites, a game feature that could easily be rolled out elsewhere so it's less limited to just this static content.
Anyway as said previously please take this discussion to the Feature & Ideas forum so we don't mess up the feedback thread with future speculation on what actual exploration could be.
yeah, ok, but lvl 4-¦s are mundane in the extreme everything if done often enough is mundane when you actually consider it..
Re mini game..... background is still not transparent, just make it see through, end of story, now its like alt tabbing out of eve to a degree. The game while amusing in the short term is a tablet type game, its easy to play, and has no real challenge, no real thought has to be given to it to get a result, its an excuse to provide mouse clicks as are the spew containers.
Yes its greatly improved over the alpha you first let loose on Sisi, but waiting for a mod to cycle was far more EvE game play than clicking dots and tiny brackets, hell all of EvE in space is basically waiting for a mod to cycle, have you not noticed. You are trying to re-invent the horse and providing lemmings, this game style is best suited for Incarna played against another human in a station when you open the door in 2025.
CCP-¦s New Motto: Shiny over Substance |
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Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 13:23:00 -
[281] - Quote
it is interesting to know how that "spew containers" mechanic was born and why dev team thinks it is good/needed here in exploration. somewhere this mechanic was mentioned as abandoned mining mechanic prototype. then why you think - its bad for mining (it would make bots live harder) but good for exploration? The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year.... |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 13:25:00 -
[282] - Quote
Emuar wrote:it is interesting to know how that "spew containers" mechanic was born and why dev team thinks it is good/needed here in exploration. somewhere this mechanic was mentioned as abandoned mining mechanic prototype. then why you think - its bad for mining (it would make bots live harder) but good for exploration?
Its the same mechanic used in the X series of games for roid mining, probably thought it might be seen as stealing in that context CCP-¦s New Motto: Shiny over Substance |
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 13:30:00 -
[283] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:Emuar wrote:it is interesting to know how that "spew containers" mechanic was born and why dev team thinks it is good/needed here in exploration. somewhere this mechanic was mentioned as abandoned mining mechanic prototype. then why you think - its bad for mining (it would make bots live harder) but good for exploration? Its the same mechanic used in the X series of games for roid mining, probably thought it might be seen as stealing in that context
still interesting why CCP implementing it as exploration feature The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year.... |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 13:36:00 -
[284] - Quote
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Re mini game..... background is still not transparent, just make it see through, end of story, now its like alt tabbing out of eve to a degree. The game while amusing in the short term is a tablet type game, its easy to play, and has no real challenge, truthfully no real thought has to be given to it to get a result good or bad, its an excuse to provide mouse clicks The spew containers catch em if can at best is a distraction and just mousing over type enhances returns by cherry picking them, so i suggest you take out the labels denoting type contained to add spice and to keep the rewards far more random.
Yes its greatly improved over the alpha you first let loose on Sisi, but waiting for a mod to cycle was far more EvE game play than clicking dots to uncover whatever and tiny brackets for a tractor effect to retrieve it. Hell all of EvE in space is basically waiting for a mod to cycle, have you not noticed.
You are trying to re-invent the horse and providing lemmings, this game style is best suited for Incarna played against another human in a station when you open the door in 2025.
Just a couple of points:
- I don't know what your window settings are like, but the minigame is very nicely transparent with mine.
- Would you like to play a difficult, supremely-challenging game while also trying to watch dscan in lowsec or hostile null? This is just my opinion of course, but the minigame as it is offers a decent balance between skill-dependent challenge (both trained skills and your skills as a human being) and being reasonably quick and easy to allow for surviving in hostile space.
- Given that each type of container can have either nice things or terrible useless things somewhat equally, I like being able to "cherry-pick" what kind of ratty old newspaper, rusty tin cans and burnt-out computer chips I grab out of space. Especially since even with this alleged "cherry-picking" that seems to basically be what I get.
- Waiting for a module to cycle until the random number generator said "Okay, you can open it now" sucked. So are you saying it's EVE-like to suck and be boring? Being actively involved in whether you get anything at all or watch a magificent explosion is light-years better than "press button, wait for cycles, receive bacon - or maybe get nothing".
- I thought horses evolved rather than being invented, but this is EVE and the "livestock" item only shows a picture of a cow.. so maybe I could be mistaken. Still, I would expect something much more substantial for in-station games under Incarna.
|
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 13:45:00 -
[285] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Would you like to play a difficult, supremely-challenging game while also trying to watch dscan in lowsec or hostile null? This is just my opinion of course, but the minigame as it is offers a decent balance between skill-dependent challenge (both trained skills and your skills as a human being) and being reasonably quick and easy to allow for surviving in hostile space.
It wouldn't be a problem if the minigame was more challenging and a bit more time consuming to think about the right order of steps. You can still do it at your pace while checking local/dscan. The problematic part right now is the loot spew which requires your full attention and due to its tedious, repetitive nature will erode your attention to dscan even more. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
136
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 13:47:00 -
[286] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Would you like to play a difficult, supremely-challenging game while also trying to watch dscan in lowsec or hostile null? This is just my opinion of course, but the minigame as it is offers a decent balance between skill-dependent challenge (both trained skills and your skills as a human being) and being reasonably quick and easy to allow for surviving in hostile space. It wouldn't be a problem if the minigame was more challenging and a bit more time consuming to think about the right order of steps. You can still do it at your pace while checking local/dscan. The problematic part right now is the loot spew which requires your full attention and due to its tedious, repetitive nature will erode your attention to dscan even more.
I was replying to the comment about the hacking minigame being entirely too easy. The loot spew is a completely different matter. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
593
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:01:00 -
[287] - Quote
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:Michael Harari wrote:How does the lack of rats interact with players trying to hunt people doing exploration?
As far as I can tell, while exploring, when someone warps into your site you just instantly cloak up and run a mwd pulse since there are no rats to lock you.
Apart from running into a gatecamp, what risk is there in doing exploration, particularly since a t1 fit t1 frigate can now run sites just as well as a 4 billion isk bear tengu? Dont worry. There is no risk. I won't be standing cloaked behind the structure, waiting for you to finish playing the minigame and gathering all the cans. And I won't blow you up afterwards to take your loot.
Good luck with that, since a bomber will straight up die to a properly fit probing frigate, black ops has bad scan res for locking a frigate before it can cloak, and everything else has a lengthy recalibration time.
Also, lets say you blow up my probing frigate. Congratulations on killing a t1 frigate? |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:01:00 -
[288] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Re mini game..... background is still not transparent, just make it see through, end of story, now its like alt tabbing out of eve to a degree. The game while amusing in the short term is a tablet type game, its easy to play, and has no real challenge, truthfully no real thought has to be given to it to get a result good or bad, its an excuse to provide mouse clicks The spew containers catch em if can at best is a distraction and just mousing over type enhances returns by cherry picking them, so i suggest you take out the labels denoting type contained to add spice and to keep the rewards far more random.
Yes its greatly improved over the alpha you first let loose on Sisi, but waiting for a mod to cycle was far more EvE game play than clicking dots to uncover whatever and tiny brackets for a tractor effect to retrieve it. Hell all of EvE in space is basically waiting for a mod to cycle, have you not noticed.
You are trying to re-invent the horse and providing lemmings, this game style is best suited for Incarna played against another human in a station when you open the door in 2025.
Just a couple of points:
- I don't know what your window settings are like, but the entire minigame window is very nicely transparent with mine.
- Would you like to play a difficult, supremely-challenging game while also trying to watch dscan in lowsec or hostile null? This is just my opinion of course, but the minigame as it is offers a decent balance between skill-dependent challenge (both trained skills and your skills as a human being) and being reasonably quick and easy to allow for surviving in hostile space.
- Given that each type of container can have either nice things or terrible useless things somewhat equally, I like being able to "cherry-pick" what kind of ratty old newspaper, rusty tin cans and burnt-out memory chips I grab out of space. Especially since even with this alleged "cherry-picking" that seems to basically be what I get. Oh, and guns. I get lots of guns.
- Waiting for a module to cycle until the random number generator said "Okay, you can open it now" sucked, but you're saying it's EVE-like. So are you saying it's EVE-like to suck and be boring, having no control over a process and waiting for the mercy of random numbers and percents? Being actively involved in whether you get anything at all or watch a magificent explosion is light-years better than "press button, wait for cycles, receive bacon - or maybe get nothing".
- I thought horses evolved rather than being invented, but this is EVE and the "livestock" item only shows a picture of a cow.. so maybe I could be mistaken.
lol
ok so what are your window setting?, throw a bone, if yours is transparent what general Setting colour scheme setting are you using, its not universial and it should be.
No, i-¦d like to play eve not a game within a game, you agree its an easy game, just a pass time no real effort type thing as you don-¦t have to pay attention as the real game is far more important
Labelling scrap, equipment, data does follow the contents, do you get data sheets from scrap containers, no, so labels allow selection of loot , unless datacores, BPC.s decryptors and other high value items all have the exact same chance of being dropped in any type of container no labels should be applied.
waiting for your guns to cycle sucks, all your hits are again random number generated are they not? a faction fit running a well remembered lvl 4 is hit button get bacon, it how many people play eve.
Its the if a committee sat down to design a horse you would get a camel saying, nothing to do with game play but the processes behind decision making
so what setting u using in the General tab for see thru mini game?
CCP-¦s New Motto: Shiny over Substance |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
137
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:08:00 -
[289] - Quote
If you're going to quote me, please do so completely. I didn't say I agree it's easy. I said that it's reasonably easy. Specifically, I said it balances well between skill requirements and reasonable ease.
As for my window settings.. Windows are R/G/B @ 0 with Transparency @ 145 and Background is R/G/B @ 11 with Transparency at 210. Given that the Background isn't very transparent (I use unpinned windows to block out the sun sometimes) I'm going to say that the hacking game probably uses the Window settings for the main area rather than the Background settings.
I got some Decryptors from a hacking site. I assume they were in "Data" canisters, but I wasn't really paying attention to the names so much as I was zoomed out a ways trying to analyze the general movement of the mini-container cloud and move along with it.
Missioning and combat in general are outside the scope of the overall discussion, but I will say that the results are considerably less randomly-generated and overwhelmingly more player-controlled than the current hacking/analyzing on TQ. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1054
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:26:00 -
[290] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Johan Toralen, these sorts of updates would be great but the main problem is that it takes one player doing it one time to post the results and its no longer exploration. Either that or there needs to be a massive amount of content generated. Now we could procedurally generate that but again there are limits particularly if we want to incorporate EVE lore. Either way other players tend to break systems down very quickly and tell you how they work which is why the current 'Exploration' is a reasonably mundane activity lots of people engage in and doesn't actually feel like exploration. A system as you describe would be broken down that way very, very quickly. Which is not to say we shouldn't seed lore content into space, it's just not a very sustainable gameplay system for exploration.
Exploration essentially has to involve going into the unknown and making it known whilst having adventures. This can only really happen if the universe is reasonably dynamic and more unpredictable. Probably the best way of doing that is giving players the tools to shape the universe and making the universe itself more dynamic. That way exploration isn't some content you chew through but a continuous use of tools in the Universe to understand it in order to do something meaningful.
Essentially if any player from a completely new character through to a ten year vet can have perfect information about the Universe and it's contents true exploration is never going to exist. That way exploration to a vet is understanding the dynamics of the universe. Whereas almost everything feels like exploration to the new player, which is the case at the moment really if they don't look at all the guides etc.
That's my take on it anyway. I thought I had on a way to make things more dynamic is to remove the regional restrictions on sites. Ex a guristas 3/10 complex will spawn anywhere in high or low sec. The Data and Relic sites would be the same. As a side effect it would help reduce the farming of DED complexes and encourage group play as an explorer would be motioned toward omni-tanking. Also kind of a fun thought would be the lower your standings toward a faction you could have a chance of a "random encounter" with them like they are hunting you down. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1054
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:51:00 -
[291] - Quote
@CCP Bayesian I have tried and tried and tried to give this working version of the relic and data sites a chance, and while the mini game is fun the whole experience is ruined by the spew containers. It is no fun to collect scrap metal and other worthless items while a bunch of other items floats away, leaving you wondering "What if I was on the other side of the container?" "How much did I lose out on by not collecting those cans?" It is not fun to feel you failed after succeeding in the mini-game. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Lucas Irvam
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:53:00 -
[292] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Waiting for a module to cycle until the random number generator said "Okay, you can open it now" sucked, but you're saying it's EVE-like. So are you saying it's EVE-like to suck and be boring, having no control over a process and waiting for the mercy of random numbers and percents? Being actively involved in whether you get anything at all or watch a magificent explosion is light-years better than "press button, wait for cycles, receive bacon - or maybe get nothing".
|
Itis Zhellin
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:54:00 -
[293] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Brainless Bimbo, you seem to have not noticed I said this in the very same post:
"'Exploration' is a reasonably mundane activity lots of people engage in and doesn't actually feel like exploration."
We have a system of limited content that is called Exploration. That does not mean it in anyway supports actual exploration which to me means actually exploring the Universe not visiting sites to do a known action in them. We've made that system much more dynamic than it was by adding in the ability to actually hack the sites, a game feature that could easily be rolled out elsewhere so it's less limited to just this static content.
Anyway as said previously please take this discussion to the Feature & Ideas forum so we don't mess up the feedback thread with future speculation on what actual exploration could be. Well, this expansion is about exploration, right? So it's kinda late to head over to the ideas forum.
You know, when I saw the Odysey splash screen for the first time with the Nemesis heading into unknow space I was like.. fuk yeah, that's it, finally something for us whom love to explore, the mystery and to find old artifacts!! Then it all turns out to be only a lite facelift with some small changes to the exploration mechanics :( Beside the harsh life in EVE full with pirates and bad guys, this is still a SF game. Remember space odyssey 2010.. we are in 2013 and still unable to leave Earth. So at least give us a game where we can dream about exploring the unknown.
But how about this: Instead of finding tons of trash in the relic/data site, we can discover clues about hidden technologies. For example we find a relic that give us a clue about an alien technology hidden somewhere in deep space. So we start an epic journey into null and as a result we can get a 5 run bpc of Gnosis or some other Jovian technology. Why is that the Rattlensake bpc is found only in DED sites? It can be also hidden in some relic sites that require some work and using a brain.
Anyway, no matter what the end result will be I wanna thank you all the developers for the hard work you make, especially CCP Bayesian. I really appreciate the hard work you guys put into delivering a high end product! |
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 15:09:00 -
[294] - Quote
the "spewing loot cans" mechanic really should be removed. who really wants to frantically click on little green icons in space?
but again i know it is fruitless to speak wisdom here as exemplified by the probe thread, where it was proven that no manner of posting will change the course that has been set.
I don't even know why threads like this exist. i guess its for the fan boy player base that are deceived into being QA for CCP, basically a free no cost QA team, letting them know when a can can't be reached or a mod isn't working. but these threads are definitely not for project direction altering ideas. |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 15:26:00 -
[295] - Quote
I already said some pages back that CCP should pull back from this stupid mechanic. I don't want a penalty for sucessfully hacking. They can activate the out-spewing if you fail the hack maybe.
But currently this mechanic feels so wrong and if CCP would make a survey on all players who actually played the new sites, i guess no one would say that gathering the loot after the hacking process is fun at all.
The minigame is fine. Improve it, more variety, its good. But the loot-mechanism is broken, bad, and should not move to TQ.
My solution: Make the loot-distribution within the minigame. So you have to unlock cans within the enemy database one by one. So you would get more cans & more loot the better your skills are (character skills + your own minigame-skills).
And yes, i would rather wait one or two more month for Odyssey then releasing this, excuse me, bullshit. And i don't think that i am the only one who thinks this way, right? |
Aminam Proweco
Smegnet Incorporated
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 15:37:00 -
[296] - Quote
Don't let the spewing can pinata on TQ !!!! Mini game can be good thing if worked on it more, I like the concept. Please work on it more and listen to the people. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1840
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 15:53:00 -
[297] - Quote
I say it again: Remove the pi+¦ata, remove the garbage, focus on the hacking game.
- nodes in the hacking game add a item from a specific loot table to the stash
- hacking the core allows you to release the stash or dig deeper into the system
- deeper levels have greater difficulty, depth of the system depends on the site/security/object
- failing in the hack locks the site, no rats, no explosions, just system lockdown
- failing the hack forfeits the stash, permadeath, a failure penalty you feel
- other players can boost the hacking player using a script on the hacking module
- can only activate one module on another player per ship
- allows taking turns with the hacking game without compromising the fit
- makes co-op more profitable as boosted hackers can go in deeper/open more items/finish the hack quicker
And this is just from the top of my head. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 16:05:00 -
[298] - Quote
so I just did a regional blood raider processing center and the loot I got was about a 4rth of what I would have gotten on tq in other words a waste of time id probably make more money running anoms considering how much longer it takes to do the hacking Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Sven Viko VIkolander
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 16:05:00 -
[299] - Quote
I think if the loot spew containers were added to the overview, I would be moderately fine with it going live as such. As much as I don't like the mechanic and think it is an annoying clickfest, it is the simplest way I can imagine to encourage group activity while not hurting solo.
However, it seems like there is a push by CCP to get information out of spreadsheets and into space. I think this is a mistake, insofar as I think ideally we should have control over how we see information. If I want to see everything (e.g., spew containers, bookmarks, etc) in space AND on my overview / scan results / etc., I should have control over that. What I don't like is limiting my options for how I see information. Spreadsheet form is highly useful for gathering a large amount of info quickly. |
Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
361
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 16:08:00 -
[300] - Quote
Maybe I tried an outdated version, I don't really remember if the last time I logged in to Sisi was before or after the 22nc, but the mini game was not challenging at all. I just had to click the nodes away without worrying about anything else. Also, how do you know which module to activate? I could try both in any type of hacking structure and both worked.
The loot is worthless compared to the effort of finding a site and hacking it. Recovery should be automatic when you are 2000m or less away from a container, but still limited to 1 at a time. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
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Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1054
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 16:09:00 -
[301] - Quote
I did a high sec mag site on tq and got better loot than most every site I have done on sisi. I cant say every because I have gotten a couple good drops, but not often enough to want to continue with the spew mechanics. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 16:11:00 -
[302] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:If you're going to quote me, please do so completely. I didn't say I agree it's easy. I said that it's reasonably easy. Specifically, I said it balances well between skill requirements and reasonable ease.
As for my window settings.. Windows are R/G/B @ 0 with Transparency @ 145 and Background is R/G/B @ 11 with Transparency at 210. Given that the Background isn't very transparent (I use unpinned windows to block out the sun sometimes) I'm going to say that the hacking game probably uses the Window settings for the main area rather than the Background settings.
I got some Decryptors from a hacking site. I assume they were in "Data" canisters, but I wasn't really paying attention to the names so much as I was zoomed out a ways trying to analyze the general movement of the mini-container cloud and move along with it.
Missioning and combat in general are outside the scope of the overall discussion, but I will say that the results are considerably less randomly-generated and overwhelmingly more player-controlled than the current hacking/analyzing on TQ.
thanks for feed back re background of hacking mini game, LOL i-¦m totally BB, forgot that transparency is option in Esc menu General Settings tab, so used to where its set and working with it. Apologies to CCP, i get a touch of forgetful moron on settings and hot key settings and i-¦m not afraid to admit it.
yeah atm, decent drops that i have got have come from data-¦s after noticing the order of them in the cargo hold, this is imo bad as it removes the chance element that CCP are going after. Personally they would be all i targeted at spawn time as the rest is not worth the clicks, this is i suggest the same for the rest of the player base.
the other were regards current game mechanics and how they are the same over everything, introducing a game within a game is a quantum shift in direction.
CCP-¦s New Motto: Shiny over Substance |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 16:42:00 -
[303] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Altrue wrote:Any other comment about this method ? For me, releasing an unfinished feature and improving it a few weeks later should be for the test-server only. We are not talking about a fix or something that has a high priority, we are talking about a rewamp of something functional (btw there were so many other things to rewamp first... *ahem* POSes *cough* *cough*).
Also, I'm still waiting for this new version of Planetary Interaction... Oh wait, we already know what happens to unfinished-but-somehow-stable features in Eve.
The probabilities to see an interesting minigame post Odyssey 1.0 are thus extremely low. Based on past performance I can see why people are skeptical that we will continue to improve features immediately post-release. Planetary Interaction is a good example of a feature that could really do with some more depth added to it. However if people say "why aren't you revamping system X instead" then we always be releasing and abandoning things. Once something is out the best time to improve it is immediately afterwards. To answer the "unfinished feature" point. We aren't releasing anything unfinished. We're releasing what we consider the minimum amount to consider the feature complete. That doesn't mean we've not got ideas that ended up on the cutting room floor because that's the nature of the developing any project that needs to fit within a set timeline. It also doesn't mean we are satisfied with the current state of things. It means as you note that the feature is functional and goes towards what we would ultimately like to achieve. It also lets us see how things fit in and interact with the live universe which is inherently different to any test server. Particularly when considering features that rely much more on player interaction. Improving iteratively is just sensible from this point of view in terms of validating what we are doing.
CCP's recent work with iterating FW and ship balancing has given some confidence CCP can work with a system to improve it. However, you need to recognize you're fighting against 8 years of experience that CCP doesn't do that. Wormholes were last touched in March of 2009. Sov in Dec of 2009. CCP is just now dealing with Tech. This ignores the sucking chest wounds that are the industry interface, corp roles, and pos's. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 16:45:00 -
[304] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:other players can boost the hacking player using a script on the hacking module Generally I like your approach, but this here is a horrible idea, that's 100% alt gameplay, not friend gameplay. There needs to be some realtime active gameplay by the other player in the group or it's just gonna be alts. Still I agree that loot spewing is not a good way to do it, there should be a way to make the friend join in the hacking minigame.
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1890
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 16:50:00 -
[305] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Manssell wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Morning update post!
GǪ.One of the things weGÇÖve been trying to do is make exploration an actual profession with its own ships, modules etc. Removing the NPCs were a part of that, but re-adding them as a failure mechanic doesnGÇÖt really fit. WeGÇÖre going to take the GÇ£hacking failedGÇ¥ penalty NPC waves out and instead put a dynamic counter for cans in. So for example, a successful hack scatters 12 loot containers, but if you fail the first attempt and youGÇÖre successful on the 2nd, it scatters 14 containers. We feel this make the profession more coherent.
While I feel that within the current design this will be a big improvement, it does beg the question of what does this mean when the "new" supposedly fun gameplay mechanic you are adding into this profession, slightly magnified, is in fact the punishment for failure mechanic also? I don't really mind punishing failure, it's more about what tools you have to do what. When you run missions, you have a combat ship. When you mine, you have a miner. When you do exploration, you should have a fitting ship. Exploration ships shouldn't have the tools combat ships have, but instead have benefits to that profession (like the bonuses to the ships). That doesn't mean there can't be failure mechanic, it just can't be based on something we actively discourage you to carry tools for (combat for example). CCP Soundwave, doing exploration is more than doing Data and Relic sites, its also about doing combat sites. For high sec a properly fit exploration ship has
A probe launcher A salvager Relic and Hacking modules Sufficient DPS and tank to do a 4/10 site All on a hull that can get into a 3/10 site
Please insure we explorers have this option.
Why? Because when you are 10 jumps away from your home base its a real annoyance to find content you cannot do because your special purpose ship is a 20 jump round trip away. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
M'aak'han
C-7
25
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 16:55:00 -
[306] - Quote
Luc Chastot wrote:Recovery should be automatic when you are 2000m or less away from a container, but still limited to 1 at a time.
Here, listen to this man CCP, if you really want to keep the pi+¦ata in. With loot equally distributed amongst the mini-cans it should work. Of course, multi-boxers will have an easier time, but better that than turning most of the players away from profession sites.
Still, a complete removal of this mechanic on a successful hack would be better. As others have already stated, the current system looks more like a punishment than a reward.
|
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1842
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 17:02:00 -
[307] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:Abrazzar wrote:other players can boost the hacking player using a script on the hacking module Generally I like your approach, but this here is a horrible idea, that's 100% alt gameplay, not friend gameplay. There needs to be some realtime active gameplay by the other player in the group or it's just gonna be alts. Still I agree that loot spewing is not a good way to do it, there should be a way to make the friend join in the hacking minigame. Basically every existing activity in EVE that can be done with more than one play can currently be done with an alt, including PvP combat. And considering that exploration has been a mostly solo activity to begin with, I don't see the point of pushing game mechanics that make alt-play impossible. Just a look at the pi+¦ata shows how those attempts turn out.
With the hacking mini game, the advantage will be the extra pair of eyes you get from a second player and the safety by numbers in lower security space. High-sec sites could be balanced to benefit the least from a second player. The lower security space can benefit more with deeper levels that scale up loot accordingly. After all, you will risk several ships then to hostile encounters. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Raven Solaris
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
180
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 17:18:00 -
[308] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:I say it again: Remove the pi+¦ata, remove the garbage, focus on the hacking game.
- nodes in the hacking game add a item from a specific loot table to the stash
- hacking the core allows you to release the stash or dig deeper into the system
- deeper levels have greater difficulty, depth of the system depends on the site/security/object
- failing in the hack locks the site, no rats, no explosions, just system lockdown
- failing the hack forfeits the stash, permadeath, a failure penalty you feel
- other players can boost the hacking player using a script on the hacking module
- can only activate one module on another player per ship
- allows taking turns with the hacking game without compromising the fit
- makes co-op more profitable as boosted hackers can go in deeper/open more items/finish the hack quicker
And this is just from the top of my head.
Having played around with it a bit, I like this a lot.
The hacking game is a bit simple right now, but there's so much potential there for it to be fun and interesting, the loot pinata on the other hand, is going to be annoying and embarassing no matter what.
It reminds me of an old game show called The Crystal Maze come to think of it. The puzzles and games the teams did were always awesome, as was the commentary of Richard O'Brien, the ending where they jumped around trying to grab tickets wasn't. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
2024
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 17:18:00 -
[309] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Thanks for the feedback guys.
I'll outline some of my thoughts for the next iteration of the hacking as people have noted it's quite 'light' at the moment on strategy. In part this is due to a scoping down of the initial design which had Utilities as items in EVE that could be collected and traded on the market. This would let you fit your module prior to hacking which adds a whole bunch of decision making depth to the hacking itself. This is the first thing I want to put in post-release as not only does it make things much more interesting, it adds in a new way for hacking to generate income and the current design goes against our no closed systems design principle. We also have a whole bunch of more interesting Defense Subsystems and Utilities to add in to increase the variety of things you encounter. On top of which we are considering some ideas for Utilities that let you deploy Virus Subsystems into the systems you are hacking and passive Utilities that take up space but provide a bonus. This should all lead to more interesting choices to make on how you hack.
This is a start, not the end. :)
Why is it every new feature CCP adds reads like this:
"Hey guys, we've got a new car for you to drive! Look, it's got racing stripes and cool wheels!"
(feedback)
"Well, we're still working on how many seats to put in the car and how fast it will be, but it's gonna be great!"
(feedback)
"Well, the engine had to be scoped out at the last minute, but the car will roll down hill quite nicely. But we're sure you'll like it, and just you wait until we iterate!"
"Implementation"
(!FEEDBACK!)
"oOPS, sorry?"
(Facepalm)
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 17:25:00 -
[310] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Basically every existing activity in EVE that can be done with more than one play can currently be done with an alt, including PvP combat. Sure, if you don't mind losing the fights against someone who knows what he's doing you can try multi-boxing PvP.
Quote:And considering that exploration has been a mostly solo activity to begin with, I don't see the point of pushing game mechanics that make alt-play impossible. Personally I think anti-alt measures are a good thing, but even if you don't agree with this that's still no reason to add new alt gameplay like you proposed.
Quote:With the hacking mini game, the advantage will be the extra pair of eyes you get from a second player and the safety by numbers in lower security space. That's alright, but that doesn't require the mechanic you proposed. |
|
kyofu
Praetorian Black Guard Frater Adhuc Excessum
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 18:00:00 -
[311] - Quote
M'aak'han wrote:Luc Chastot wrote:Recovery should be automatic when you are 2000m or less away from a container, but still limited to 1 at a time. Here, listen to this man CCP, if you really want to keep the pi+¦ata in. With loot equally distributed amongst the mini-cans it should work. Of course, multi-boxers will have an easier time, but better that than turning most of the players away from profession sites. Still, a complete removal of this mechanic on a successful hack would be better. As others have already stated, the current system looks more like a punishment than a reward.
Dear CCP,
I hate the loot Pinata, as does I believe the entire posting player base. I think adding a new skill or two specifically relevant to the hacking game, and adding loot cache type nodes and other interesting features to the mini-game would be a far more interesting way to approach it.
However if nothing we can say or do will convince you how unsuited and just bad the spew mechanic is then at least pay attention to the quoted posts as a potential compromise.
Thanks.
-Kyo |
dethleffs
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
188
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 19:10:00 -
[312] - Quote
Christ. This is depressing. The hacking game is ok, but theres no sense of direction.
Sites where far and few in between - found one buggy site: Sansha regional data fortress - cant reach the spew containers - bumping off an amarr station wreck
I made 32 jumps, found 5 sites made 600,000 isk.
Other things I noticed where:
the radial menu where you enable the scanner overlay never closes if you pick an option, so you have to press escape.
Scan results lose focus and thus wont show up after a completed scan cycle. You have to click on them to see them in the system map again.
The lootpuke mechanic is horrible: combine low fps clouds (i know that will be fixed) + eve's horrible bumping mechanic on structures + maniacally clicking little icons in space and you get by far the worst mechanic ccp ever invented for exploration.
Its worse than making hundreds of bookmarks to get a no overlap probe placement and have to carry 24 different kinds of probes with you to wait on timers exceeding 2 minutes to get **** loot.
|
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
50
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 19:30:00 -
[313] - Quote
Talking about radial menu. That's another thing that makes the loot spew so crap as it constantly pops up for me when i try to get the tiny cans. |
Narjack
CragCO
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 19:39:00 -
[314] - Quote
CCP,
You want to make exploration a profession? Well, it kind of was already was no? However, your system of taking all the rats out, except WH's (and thank you for at least that ) has the effect of negating a big part of any profession. That part is progression. Increasingly more difficult rats in sites meant you needed better ships to do them in. More SP. Now you can run it all in a covops. Too little risk for too much reward. Nothing to really look forward to over time. It will get stale quickly. Great for new players perhaps...at the expense of your tried and true stalwart subscribers. And over time, those new guys will get bored with it.
I guess the mini-game is here to say, though I would have been much happier with you guys just building a bunch of new cool sites to go out and find, or maybe some kind of uber dangerous WH space that has no moons, no planets, nothing but deadly sites to run. I don't know, like stuff to..... explore. It would be nice if you guys filled out some of the loot table and created a whole new bunch of faction drone stuff as many of the non-rated drone sites are currently not worth doing.
I mean we have all these new cool drone damage amplifiers --- why not some other meta versions? Same for the other mods. How about meta versions for the ASB's, MJD, etc etc etc. There is a lot of content you could just add to exploration and it would have been very fun. What sucks is repetition and too few sites. I would prefer more sites, even at less individual reward, but with much more variety. There are a lot of super hard non-rated sites that have crap loot though they are harder than some 10/10's though respectively lower rated. Some balancing of combat sites as some are WAY harder --- like neuting blood raiders are in some sites much harder than say many Angel sites (and certainly no corresponding increase in reward.) How about more escalation that you know...actually escalate. In null sec these come with some HUGE risk to run (well, at least in NPC null, I guess not in care bear null.) Would love to do more of those...but often not worth the squeeze.
All it needed was more content, new mods, make drones worth doing, and some new space...some cool uber dangerous.. unlivable WH space to explore.
Not a mini-game and a horrible, terrible, annoyingly bad twitch grab the can game.
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3430
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 19:46:00 -
[315] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:I say it again: Remove the pi+¦ata, remove the garbage, focus on the hacking game.
- nodes in the hacking game add a item from a specific loot table to the stash
- hacking the core allows you to release the stash or dig deeper into the system
- deeper levels have greater difficulty, depth of the system depends on the site/security/object
- failing in the hack locks the site, no rats, no explosions, just system lockdown
- failing the hack forfeits the stash, permadeath, a failure penalty you feel
- other players can boost the hacking player using a script on the hacking module
- can only activate one module on another player per ship
- allows taking turns with the hacking game without compromising the fit
- makes co-op more profitable as boosted hackers can go in deeper/open more items/finish the hack quicker
And this is just from the top of my head.
A cooperative hack could benefit from multiple human players by having a larger network with nodes that will expire once exposed. So it becomes a race against time. Multiple players would end up entering the network from distant locations, immediately increasing the chance that the control node for this level will be discovered before the time out.
I'm not sure what plans are in store, but having nodes which increase the expiry timer speed, slow it down, would make the game more tactical. Having some idea of what might be in the next node would be useful too, as would the ability for the player to drop firewalls of their own to block off other players, or scramblers to re-hide a node that had previously been exposed. This would turn into a competitive clicking contest, but at least the targets aren't moving, and interacting with the targets isn't overloading the "set a course in this direction" gesture for ship control.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
462
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 19:47:00 -
[316] - Quote
Just tried a hacking site. I don't want to judge after one short test, but I did not have the impression that personal skill is required or useful. I just click nodes and then find the system core or I find lots of firewalls. I always left firewalls alone until all other routes were exhausted, to find repair mods and other utility nodes first. That's about the only tactical possibility I can see so far, however. Rest appears to be blind luck.
Still, it's not too bad and an improvement over the non-game hacking was before.
The loot from that hisec site was laughable, but then I never got anything useful from a hisec site on TQ either, years back when I still did them.
The loot release mechanic is not too bad. Yes, for the record, I don't hate the loot release mechanic :p If my impressions are correct, it is not as twitchy as it first appears, because you can only grab one can every few seconds anyway (you click "take" when it's in range, then your ship uses a kind of shiny tractor beam and pulls the can in). Fast-clicking several cans in rapid succession did not seem to speed up the process, though I could be wrong about that.
All in all, collecting the loot requires a lot less fast reactions than doing pvp, so if you hate it so much, you're probably a goddamn carebear
Maybe a bug: Radial menu and also selected item menu for the loot cans does not have the "take" option, only right-clicking them works. That's weird and inconsistent, needs to change.
I had four hacking modules fitted, but it seemed that one module would have worked just as well, activating more than one on the can did not increase my virus strength. Is that confirmed?
What still bothers me is that those sites are best done in a super-cheap frigate, so no incentive to hunt down explorers in low/null/wh. Why don't you make the analyzer modules a lot more expensive, so they at least provide some value. T1 analyzer should be around 10m and T2 30-40m each (if you really need only one on a ship). . |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 20:20:00 -
[317] - Quote
just wanted to update, the heron does add 10 to virus str so that part is working ok.
with that said i just wanna say really guys?
needless to say, i did not win that one.
edit: if you look in the centerish there is a utility there, i noticed that even though it's "hidden" because of the restoration node if you try and click on it all the restoration nodes will heal. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
462
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 20:23:00 -
[318] - Quote
Lol. What was the name of the site, maybe "The Pentagon"? . |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1762
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 20:25:00 -
[319] - Quote
what if the container spewing thing would be the mechanic for a partially or fully failed hacking attempt instead of a fully successful hack.
if the game could be set up to have three endings: full success, partial success and failure, success would give you the full container, partial success the container spew scenario and failure nothing.
the full success scenario should be quite hard to achieve, and maybe easier to achieve if you bring friends (this would bring the multiplayer aspect back). eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 20:33:00 -
[320] - Quote
Wasilah wrote:with that said i just wanna say really guys?needless to say, i did not win that one. Q: Why does the Antivirus have 360 coherency? A: Cause when you see it you turn 360-¦ and walk away.
Sorry, could not resist. |
|
Energetic Monk
Wayforward Emergent Technologies
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 20:39:00 -
[321] - Quote
After testing analyzing in a Cosmos site i will conclude that my decision to drop hacking/analyzing wasn't to hasty. Those that have stockpiled Cosmos stuff will soon be rewarded, since noone in their right mind will ever be doing a Cosmos site after a stint or two in a Cosmos site. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 20:57:00 -
[322] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Just tried a hacking site. I don't want to judge after one short test, but I did not have the impression that personal skill is required or useful. I just click nodes and then find the system core or I find lots of firewalls. I always left firewalls alone until all other routes were exhausted, to find repair mods and other utility nodes first. That's about the only tactical possibility I can see so far, however. Rest appears to be blind luck.
Thers definitely some tactical aspect to how it's now in nullsec sites. For instance if you open an antivirus node you have to find tools first and destroy it before you can think of finding and hacking the core. Gets worse if you happen to open two antivirus nodes. The "bad nodes" also seem to be more prevalent on nodes that are surrounded by other nodes so look careful and find a way around the outskirts. at least that's my tactic for now.
Quote:The loot release mechanic is not too bad. Yes, for the record, I don't hate the loot release mechanic :p If my impressions are correct, it is not as twitchy as it first appears, because you can only grab one can every few seconds anyway (you click "take" when it's in range, then your ship uses a kind of shiny tractor beam and pulls the can in). Fast-clicking several cans in rapid succession did not seem to speed up the process, though I could be wrong about that. All in all, collecting the loot requires a lot less fast reactions than doing pvp, so if you hate it so much, you're probably a goddamn carebear
I think you just randomly clicked cans. They have names that indicate possible good loot or crap. So while one can gets tractored you're busy hovering over the others to find the next good one just in time. It gets unnerving when the camera moves around, you're stuck in geometry or your ship overshoots the cans. Forget about checking dscan while doing this.
Quote:What still bothers me is that those sites are best done in a super-cheap frigate, so no incentive to hunt down explorers in low/null/wh. Why don't you make the analyzer modules a lot more expensive, so they at least provide some value. T1 analyzer should be around 10m and T2 30-40m each (if you really need only one on a ship).
Easy targets with possibly juicy loot in the cargo. The cap rig and faction pos bpc's should go for quite a sum. At least until the market has adjusted to the supply.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
462
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 20:58:00 -
[323] - Quote
While objectively there is no difference between the normal loot luck factor we have now (what there is to find in a site) and what this new system brings (we can not get eveything, and the good stuff SURELY was in the cans I didn't get!!! *cry*), I think it might be wiser for CCP to change this. Most people can't stand the thought that they just "won" and still don't get everything. I foresee riots over this.Unjustified and dumb riots, but riots nonetheless.
edit
Johan Toralen wrote:~snip~
Good points, will look out for that next time I try. . |
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 21:12:00 -
[324] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:While objectively there is no difference between the normal loot luck factor we have now (what there is to find in a site) and what this new system brings (we can not get eveything, and the good stuff SURELY was in the cans I didn't get!!! *cry*), I think it might be wiser for CCP to change this. Most people can't stand the thought that they just "won" and still don't get everything. I foresee riots over this.Unjustified and dumb riots, but riots nonetheless.
Good points, will look out for that next time I try.
The problem is that the riots will be of CCP's making and very easily avoidable. That is the true shame of it. |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 21:14:00 -
[325] - Quote
can we PLEASE for the love of god remove the mechanic that makes the site despawn if you leave it?!?!?!?!?!?!
had a cruiser spawn after a failed hacking attempt. I couldn't kill it in my heron and it couldn't kill me but rather than just tanking it i went to refit my ship for more dps and missed out on 80% of the site because it despawned. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
462
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 21:26:00 -
[326] - Quote
Wasilah wrote:can we PLEASE for the love of god remove the mechanic that makes the site despawn if you leave it?!?!?!?!?!?!
had a cruiser spawn after a failed hacking attempt. I couldn't kill it in my heron and it couldn't kill me but rather than just tanking it i went to refit my ship for more dps and missed out on 80% of the site because it despawned. Funny, I was in the same situation today and expected the site to be gone when I came back with another ship, but it was still there. The previously spawned rat was gone, but not the containers.
Maybe you had already done all the containers in the site except one? Could be the site despawns when every container has been tinkered with and then everyone leaves the grid. Which wouldn't be so terrible.
. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 21:32:00 -
[327] - Quote
NPC's will be removed. But that sure would suck if you warped to a safe spot in the middle of running the site.
Btw. can it be so that the containers despawn after been hacked? That would safe at least a hand full of clicks on these new sites. |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 21:47:00 -
[328] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Funny, I was in the same situation today and expected the site to be gone when I came back with another ship, but it was still there. The previously spawned rat was gone, but not the containers.
Maybe you had already done all the containers in the site except one? Could be the site despawns when every container has been tinkered with and then everyone leaves the grid. Which wouldn't be so terrible.
sadly it was the second fail attempt. first rat was a frig and the second one (that i was having issues killing) was a cruiser. I would get it to about half shields and it would just rep back up.
Also wanted to add that it seems the value's that the "heal" utilities seems to be a lot lower than it was before the patch yesterday. They are almost no help at all now where as before they would actually allow you to keep going past the 2 firewalls you can fight now. |
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 22:21:00 -
[329] - Quote
I just tried a couple of sites in Sansha null. Hacking skill is only level 3 so it was expectedly hard. Found a site in a WH but wasn't equipped to clear it.
Thoughts:
- Love the hacking minigame. Agree with others that it still has some filling out to do, but it definitely has lots of potential.
- Didn't find an Archeology to try, but short of coming up with a completely different mini-game (probably way out of scope) you could easily differentiate it by flavoring them differently. Make one movement, sequence, and puzzle based and leave the other tactical virus combat based. Not sure how hard it would be to dynamically generate genuinely challenging puzzles for the logic and movement based version. Giving them different looking UIs and naming the elements of the minigame differently would help too.
- Agree that loot vomit isn't fun or sensical. It was an interesting idea, but I tried it and didn't care for it. One thing that could make it less annoying would be to have the loot not go far enough to require the ship to move or let the tractor beam reach far enough to hit any of the loot before it despawns. That way people won't feel they MUST always use a nano'd frigate to explore. It'd still require precision d-clicking and friends to get everything but would remove some of the frantic panic of figuring out which group of suicidal fart particles to go after.
As a sociable alternative I liked the "multiple people concurrently hacking increases loot" ideas posted earlier as long as it doesn't make solo play too inferior. I prefer to do PVE solo about as often as with friends because there's less time commitment and it can be more spontaneous.
- Shouldn't be able to re-cloak while hacking module is active.
- As Wasilah said, sites despawning when you warp out doesn't make sense. It kinda ruins the immersion. The site should despawn after all the containers are hacked AND you warp out. Loot should despawn with the site to get rid of the behavior we see in current DED sites where you blap the leader, BM the wreck, warp out, site despawns, warp back and grab the loot unmolested.
|
M'aak'han
C-7
26
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 22:24:00 -
[330] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:NPC's will be removed. But that sure would suck if you warped to a safe spot in the middle of running the site.
Btw. can it be so that the containers despawn after been hacked? That would safe at least a hand full of clicks on these new sites.
Even solo, you can still form a fleet with yourself. This way, you can tag the containers you already dealt with. Tags will persist if you leave the grid, but not if you dock or change system unfortunately. But it saved me a lot of wasted time in the past nonetheless.
|
|
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 22:32:00 -
[331] - Quote
Another option to make the loot spew less ridiculously reflex based and more consistent would be to disappear all of the spew containers after a set number are collected by each person and eliminate or significantly increase the timer-based despawn.
This would also help work around some of the collision problems people are having while trying to fly within range of the stuff. |
Atomic Option
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 22:34:00 -
[332] - Quote
Lastly, CCP Bayesian, your dev name is awesome. LessWrong much? |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 23:09:00 -
[333] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Btw. can it be so that the containers despawn after been hacked? That would safe at least a hand full of clicks on these new sites. It's already listed as a known issue in the OP that completed cans don't despawn at the moment. They do despawn when you fail at hacking too often. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
140
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 23:11:00 -
[334] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:Johan Toralen wrote:Btw. can it be so that the containers despawn after been hacked? That would safe at least a hand full of clicks on these new sites. It's already listed as a known issue in the OP that completed cans don't despawn at the moment. They do despawn when you fail at hacking too often.
I considered that particular mechanic to be a little more.. noticeable.. than a standard "despawn". |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 00:17:00 -
[335] - Quote
So i just did a data and a relic site in hisec. Got 5.8m decryptor from the data site and nothing of value from the relic site.
In the relic site it so happend that the cans wern't in sync. Color change and name display was delayed and harder to grab the right can then normal. I guess lag. Tell you what this is really gonna **** me off when it happens on Tranquilty in a lowsec or nullsec site.
|
Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
362
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 00:35:00 -
[336] - Quote
Rob Crowley wrote:Wasilah wrote:with that said i just wanna say really guys?needless to say, i did not win that one. Q: Why does the Antivirus have 360 coherency? A: Cause when you see it you turn 360-¦ and walk away. Sorry, could not resist.
360-¦ is full circle; you meant 180-¦. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Patrick Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 00:56:00 -
[337] - Quote
Have you played it after Sisi was deployed today? We've doubled the loot in each site (to account for cans you don't get), added new types (the faction towers are back in) and cut the number of cans in half. This should be in much better shape now (if it's not, we'll continue making changes of course). [/quote]
SWEET! the prices may really drop for the first time since i started playing! |
Circumstantial Evidence
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 02:55:00 -
[338] - Quote
Many players have complained that the loot they are getting (or managing to catch after considerable clickfesty efforts) is not that great. Nothing new here. Loot has never been consistent in exploration sites, unlike combat anomalies which have predictable values. I have waited with module activated on hack cans for 10 minutes, to get nothing. The new method can reward me with nothing much faster, freeing me to move on to another site and potential "jackpot" more quickly (thanks to improved scanning!)
|
Flamespar
Woof Club
599
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 04:25:00 -
[339] - Quote
One possible improvement I would like to see
It would be great if each time you destroyed a system core, you were given the choice to go a level deeper into the system, or to jettison the accessed cargo. Each time you enter a deeper level it becomes more complex and difficult, yet the potential rewards become greater. Of course the risk of failure should also escalate with every additional level.
For example. Three levels down you accidentally activate the hacking sites defense systems causing the the site to webify your ship. You also get a notification that a broadband emergency signal has been activated. Maybe you trigger the sites destruction sequence.
Just some possibilities I can post on a forum, therefore I represent everyone. |
Zeradn
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 04:52:00 -
[340] - Quote
I ran into a Decayed Gurista Mining Installation site after the update. Fun site. 8 hacking cans placed on top of another. There seemed to be dust cloud/particle effect on the cans or surrounding it. Zoomed in, fps dropped to ~2. Had trouble just zooming out. Didn't try hacking as there was no way I was going to catch any spewed cans.
Some quick screen shots: Image 1, Image 2.
PS: The site is still up for those who want to see. TJM-664 in Eruka, Forge. |
|
Heinel Coventina
University of Caille Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 05:02:00 -
[341] - Quote
Rytell Tybat wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Alvatore DiMarco, we could go one of two ways, distinguish Archaeology more from Hacking again so they are both unique or fold everything into Hacking. Hacking has more applicability as a transferable skill into more areas of EVE so we'll see as we broach where things are going to go more long term from here. Really hope that you guys iterate quite a bit on this in the future. It would be a shame to just fold everything into Hacking. Would be great to have a completely different experience for Hacking and Archeology. Something more to differentiate them than a module or skin on the mini-game. Perhaps one requires more cooperation with other players than the other? Or maybe a completely different mini-game for archeology? More time required? Larger environment to cover? I confess I haven't tried the new stuff on the test server, but I am looking forward to Odyssey and the future iterations.
I am hoping to see archaeology as pve, basically all the analyzer sites now, and hacking be made into a PvP activity. One player operate the virus, another to operate an antivirus, that is either created ahead of time to defend a thing, or in real time as in RTS games. |
marVLs
159
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 07:23:00 -
[342] - Quote
Flamespar wrote:One possible improvement I would like to see
It would be great if each time you destroyed a system core, you were given the choice to go a level deeper into the system, or to jettison the accessed cargo. Each time you enter a deeper level it becomes more complex and difficult, yet the potential rewards become greater. Of course the risk of failure should also escalate with every additional level.
For example. Three levels down you accidentally activate the hacking sites defense systems causing the the site to webify your ship. You also get a notification that a broadband emergency signal has been activated. Maybe you trigger the sites destruction sequence.
Just some possibilities
That's some great idea
But still this clicking can fest... At least change it to something like this:
One player doing site? Then a containers spawn in number for one player, but they don't disappear
Two or more players? Let them do some hacking for containers spawn for them
Just remove this terrible disappearing containers |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3434
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 08:30:00 -
[343] - Quote
mynnna wrote:The whole point of the loot spew is that it encourages bringing friends.
The loot spew encourages bringing people who don't mind being bored. You do the exploring, they just wait around. You do the hacking, they just wait around. Then you tell them, "wake up and double-click teensy little moving things in the space window!"
That's not fun.
What would be fun is if the hacking part of the game was the coop/competitive part. Thus you would have multiple people facing the same hacking grid, and each time you complete a level you have the option of either (a) completing the hack to spew containers or (b) hacking deeper to give better loot, and slower/fewer spew containers.
This idea was raised by Abrazzar earlier in this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3082437#post3082437
I added my two bits worth: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3083444#post3083444
If you were competitively hacking, you could attempt to shut down another player's hacking trail, install your own firewalls and antiviruses, or aim for faster completion on your own.
My two main complaints about the new hacking system are: it's exclusionary, it invents a new magical ability for spaceships (i.e.: everyone gets a tractor beam that works only on spew containers), and it pretends to encourage cooperative play by relegating your friends to loot-vacuuming minions. My friends are not loot-vacuuming minions. They are smart people who deserve a game play experience every bit as entertaining for them as it is for me.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3435
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 08:46:00 -
[344] - Quote
Atomic Option wrote:Another option to make the loot spew less ridiculously reflex based and more consistent would be to disappear all of the spew containers after a set number are collected by each person and eliminate or significantly increase the timer-based despawn.
That would certainly suit the people with severely ******** hand-eye coordination such as myself.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
2697
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 08:51:00 -
[345] - Quote
1. How do you like the look and feel of the new sites? We put in new containers and moved things around. In all honesty, the containers look exceptionally derpy. The ones I saw were these kilometre-long spinny-ring arrangements that were jammed halfway into a Guristas station. Frankly it looked sort of preposterous.
2. How do you like the hacking challenge? What were the results? (what was your strength and coherency, did you win the challenges etc) The hacking challenge itself seems like it could be fun, but I won all the challenges in the hi-sec site I found without even a hint of difficulty. Because the system doesn't really make it clear what's actually going on I don't really have a feel for the stakes. I'm going to try a low-sec site and see what's up there.
3. How do you like the new looting mechanic? This tons-of-tiny-cans thing is awful. Rounding them all up before their far-too-short expiry date given how widely they scatter is postively torturous, and severely messes with my enjoyment of the entire minigame. Please, please reconsider. Mane 614
|
Mario delTorres
GBTeam C0VEN
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 10:33:00 -
[346] - Quote
I've found another problem with new "loot catching method" at exploration sites.
This screenshot
On this screenshot you see what loot you can get from Sansha data site. First on the right cargo, where all items aren't valuable is another problem to talk about, but:
Let's try on first from left. I'm in helios coverops with cargo capacity 175m3. I successful hack first container and want to catch all items. Problem: the loot has 199m3 volume and I have 175m3 only. I don't count data sheets and other random stuff (that fill my cargo too). When cargo is full, you click at green spewed containter and you will see messsage "No cargo space" or something like that. And this loot disappears.
In situation, when you fill cargo with Positron cords or other small valuable stuff you click on something valuable but YOU WON"T GET IT because of cargo space. Spewed containers dispappers very fast and player haven't time to control cargo room too. They are focused to click in green pixels.
CCP PLEASE simplify it in this way: 1. If minigame success - open the cargo and player has access items inside, 2. If minigame failure - blow up container.
Thats it!
PS. I saw the container with over 300m3 parts. |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 10:43:00 -
[347] - Quote
The cosmetics of the sites seem alright. There are still a few sites where the spew containers are within a structure that make it impossible to get with 6km of the containers.
Learning the hacking challenge was enjoyable. Did take me a few sites to get a decent understanding of the mechanics and memorizing the icons. However, once you have that understanding then the mini game becomes trivial and is just an exercise of your hand and mouse. The range in difficulty of the puzzles does make things slightly interesting but I still found there are very few puzzles generated that will produce a failed attempt.
Picking up the cans themselves is not too big of an issue most of the time. However, there are occasions where a few spew containers seems put bigger rocket boosters on the cans. There is not a consistent velocity to the cans and when I run into those spew containers that throw things at a much faster rate then I do get annoyed. Overall though it is decent. Now when it comes to the loot itself there seems to be a lot to be desired. Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems like half the cans have very little value, parts and components, and just serve as a device to cuter the screen and make you get more fatigue by forcing you to hover over all the cans to find the ones worth scooping. Of the can that do seem to have some value, materials and data, it is quite annoying that the majority of those cans are empty or just have the near zero isl value item in them.
What is the expected completion time for these sites? I got to the point where I was finishing a null sec 6 can site in about 13 minutes. However, no matter how well I did it didn't seem to have any impact on the value of the site. I was managing to scoop almost every data and material can and my rewards where quite disappointing.
Average relic site usually consisted of something like: 24 test reports, 2 mil in t1 salvage, 14 mil in t2 salvage, and maybe a tuner bpc for 6 mil.
Typical data site was working out to something like: 18 data sheets, and 15-30 mil in decryptors.
However, there were also occasions where I got several 'dickish' puzzles in a site and it ended up taking 20-25 minutes to do and the reward ended up being less than five million isk. Then I have also had the sites that took 13 minutes and ended up being 40-50 million. Quite honestly that is what has always annoyed me about professional sites, the loot variance. Spending 10-20 minutes on a site to get next to nothing is very discouraging and then having to pray for a 40-50 million site to hope for a decent average payout to make the time spent 'worthwhile' is not very appealing. I would much prefer a higher floor value per site, say 15 million, and a lower ceiling say 30 million instead of this 0-50 range I have experienced thus far.
It does make me wonder what is the expected average value per site. The variance was too high for me to bother with the professional sites now and it seems like that variance will still be so significant I won't bother with the new sites. So this puts me in a position where my play habits wont change. My current game play habits consist of ignoring the professional sites. If I am going to gamble on rewards, it would be much better for me to gamble on DEDs than it does for relic and data sites.
On the plus side of things I really do enjoy the fact the relics and data sites do take quite a bit of time to do. For not having to kill any npcs and still being committed to the site for 10-20 minutes may prove to be quite interesting for pvp opportunities. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
140
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 10:49:00 -
[348] - Quote
Perhaps somewhere in between will be good.
Succeed on the first try: Open container normally.
Fail, but then succeed: Loot Spew mechanic.
Fail twice: KABOOOOOM!
Naturally, the loot table might need to be looked at to keep things properly balanced. |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 10:50:00 -
[349] - Quote
TL;DR : Both minigames seem to need more mechanics that factor a player skill - which would improve over time - into the outcome. Right now, both minigames seems to simply act as mechanics to replace one time wasting mechanic for another, and to specifically encourage rewards for group exploration.
My first impressions on the mechanics:
* Hacking:
Seems to be missing a "thinking/skill" element. Unlike say, the hacking minigame in Deus Ex Human Revolution. In here, we can frantically click on nodes and fluke a way out. The minigame really needs to be expanded so we are rewarded for carefully weaving our way through, and penalized more for rushing it, or failure.
If the concept of the minigame is to mainly turn the "time wasting" of running the scan cycles into "time wasting" while doing some actual clicking, then I would love to have cans that have to be taken back to station and hacked there for example. Hard ones could take a VERY long time and/or many attempts, so really we are WORKING hard for our loot, and this concept is something that also could NOT be done faster with more people or ALT's, so it balances out.
* The loot spew:
Feels generally "wrong". If the mechanic is to make "solo" work a lot harder because even a player who is multiboxing still only has 2 hands to click on flying cans, the process could still be archived by much slower flying cans, allowing us to pick and choose better, and a slower click-to-retrieve system, and a more variable time-to-evaporate on cans, allowing us some more control on can choices, and still stopping us from getting everything.
Right now it feels like frantic clicking for the sake of clicking, just like a game of whack-a-mole. Again, needs more controlled mechanics that give a sense that we are more in control of the outcome, when we choose to be more focused on the job.
If 40 cans spew out, and a single player can only grab ten, then a solo player clicking randomly should only get 25% of the ISK worth in loot, while a careful player that's been methodical, and selective, and paying attention should be able to get 30% or more of the worth in ISK, because they are taking their time AND maybe because when they did a "full clear, 100% hack" in the previous minigame, some cans (or all cans) get labels on them while flying through space ... just saying
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1478
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 11:22:00 -
[350] - Quote
Out of curiosity, has the system been tested under heavy TiDi? If so how does it react? CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
2697
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 11:24:00 -
[351] - Quote
Yeah, I mean, seriously CCP. Get rid of the loot spew mechanic entirely.
I do not feel rewarded for having completed your hacking minigame, I feel punished. Mane 614
|
Zeradn
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 12:46:00 -
[352] - Quote
I really liked the idea posted by someone here asking to change the spew mechanism so that once a player picks up a fixed number of cans, they disappear or the tractoring fails. Can be technically explained as a limitation to the special tractor beam being used. After a number of consecutive cycles, they have to be reset/recharged.
Another idea was the loot opening on success on first try, spewing on second. Or it could be two data cores in the hacking mini-game. One opens the loot properly, other can be considered as a partial error and spews the loot. Also considerable is the idea that the NPC spawn occurring as an effect of hacking a special node, something like a defence mechanism.
These type of variances might help make the whole hacking more interesting. Even with all the changes till now, this whack-a-mole setup (had been thinking that from the beginning, finally saw some one calling it what it is a few posts back) makes the whole hacking experience mildly frustrating. You should also remember that all these actions redirects your concentration from the d-scan and other hostile monitoring systems. That is additional risk in the 'risk vs rewards' scenario. So I guess we should be rewarded a bit more for all this effort (ie. in the low/null sec). |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 13:16:00 -
[353] - Quote
omg people can we stop with the posts saying get rid of the can spew? they are going to put it in, get over it. offer some idea on how to make it better/more manageable rather than just crying about it. It's not so hard to get a decent number of cans solo unless your working with a stick for a hand and you control your ship by smashing your face into the keyboard/mouse.
That said, i do wish there was some benefit to opening the whole hacking map. I do it anyways just because i like the map and like seeing everything each map has (when i manage to beat everything) but it'd be even better if completing the map made the cans move valuable or something. Something like the % of the map you open raises the avg value of the cans that come out, values being base of what they are now (poop in my opinion) to what this guy/gal said:
blink alt wrote:However, there were also occasions where I got several 'dickish' puzzles in a site and it ended up taking 20-25 minutes to do and the reward ended up being less than five million isk. Then I have also had the sites that took 13 minutes and ended up being 40-50 million. Quite honestly that is what has always annoyed me about professional sites, the loot variance. Spending 10-20 minutes on a site to get next to nothing is very discouraging and then having to pray for a 40-50 million site to hope for a decent average payout to make the time spent 'worthwhile' is not very appealing. I would much prefer a higher floor value per site, say 15 million, and a lower ceiling say 30 million instead of this 0-50 range I have experienced thus far.
then you can either do the sites quick for a little less payout but smash through a ton of sites or take a little extra time in each one for a much better payout but more risk of being caught sitting in a site. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 13:33:00 -
[354] - Quote
Wasilah wrote:omg people can we stop with the posts saying get rid of the can spew? they are going to put it in, get over it. offer some idea on how to make it better/more manageable rather than just crying about it. It's not so hard to get a decent number of cans solo unless your working with a stick for a hand and you control your ship by smashing your face into the keyboard/mouse.
Have you even read any thread regarding the loot spew? Ther's a ton of good ideas floating around for improvements. And don't tell us not to complain about a feature that we genuinely dislike. We are all paying customers (or contribute greatly to CCP's income stream via plexing multiple accounts). It's our good right to voice our opinion. Not to mention that we do unpaid QA work for CCP. A paid QA would be considered useless and fired if he thinks everthing is great and doesn't criticize.
I can also tell you from my position being in game dev myself. We listen and consider critique even tho we often enough hate the whining masses. You can be sure even tho CCP will go through with this for Odyssey someone's scratching his head right now wondering if it was the right design choice and direction to take. This will be amplified in two weeks when the public outcry will start to pour in. |
Degin'eth
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 14:05:00 -
[355] - Quote
I found a way to get the FULL LOOT from a site, but the total value is still VERY small. From a full loot in null sec (-0.3) the value was ~10 million. Incredibly small for the time it takes to jump through gates > scan the sites > find a site > hack it and loot it > transport the goods to a tradehub (especially hard in null). And this is on the test sever, where people are not actively searching for sites. So, the loot needs to be MUCH more valuable otherwise nobody will bother to do them.. waste of feature and expansion.
Anyway, here's how you can get the full loot.
1) Use a cargo scanner on the hacking structure 2) See what kind of items drop. If it only drops data module (data cores, incognito process, etc). 3) When the cans are dispersed only loot the Data cans. Everything else will be scraps. 4) Repeat for the next structure 5) If the next one has salvage items, only loot Scraps cans and so on.
So, the bottom line. You can do these sites solo, and get the full loot, but it's still worthless to do because of the value.
Considering someone ratting can sit still, press F1, and instantly get their ISK, exploration should reward AT LEAST 50-100 mil / site. |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 14:13:00 -
[356] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Have you even read any thread regarding the loot spew? Ther's a ton of good ideas floating around for improvements. And don't tell us not to complain about a feature that we genuinely dislike. We are all paying customers (or contribute greatly to CCP's income stream via plexing multiple accounts). It's our good right to voice our opinion. Not to mention that we do unpaid QA work for CCP. A paid QA would be considered useless and fired if he thinks everthing is great and doesn't criticize.
ok let me spell this out for you because you apparently didn't understand the implied context. I was talking about the people in this thread specifically. We all know there are lots of posts saying they don't like it and giving ideas on what can replace it. I assumed it was clear that i wasn't talking about those posts. do i need to go and quote the plenty of people that make a post saying "CCP is are douches, get rid of mechanic because i don't like new and different things!!!" ?
I'm sure you think every opinion in this thread is great and needed to be made right?....
anyway this is off topic, just getting tired of reading the 1,000,000,000th person posting "blaarrggg i r hate spew!!!!11!!one! " when they clearly have tried it once or twice if at all.
|
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1478
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 14:17:00 -
[357] - Quote
Wasilah wrote:omg people can we stop with the posts saying get rid of the can spew? they are going to put it in, get over it. offer some idea on how to make it better/more manageable rather than just crying about it. It's not so hard to get a decent number of cans solo unless your working with a stick for a hand and you control your ship by smashing your face into the keyboard/mouse.
They wanted feedback they got feedback, shockingly enough not all feedback is going to be positive. I know they put some time and effort into making it, but the general consensus from both threads, is that the mechanic is terrible. If the majority of people dislike the mechanic on such a small scale, imagine what the outcry will be when it goes live? This is what we want to avoid. However like you said, CCP will ignore it and stubbornly push it through. At least they can't say we didn't warn them, not like they care.
When it comes to making it more manageable, there's not much you can do. The overall concept is what people dislike, so you can't really polish a turd and act like it's not ****. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
141
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 14:20:00 -
[358] - Quote
Wasilah wrote:Johan Toralen wrote:Have you even read any thread regarding the loot spew? Ther's a ton of good ideas floating around for improvements. And don't tell us not to complain about a feature that we genuinely dislike. We are all paying customers (or contribute greatly to CCP's income stream via plexing multiple accounts). It's our good right to voice our opinion. Not to mention that we do unpaid QA work for CCP. A paid QA would be considered useless and fired if he thinks everthing is great and doesn't criticize. ok let me spell this out for you because you apparently didn't understand the implied context. I was talking about the people in this thread specifically. We all know there are lots of posts saying they don't like it and giving ideas on what can replace it. I assumed it was clear that i wasn't talking about those posts. do i need to go and quote the plenty of people that make a post saying "CCP is are douches, get rid of mechanic because i don't like new and different things!!!" ? I'm sure you think every opinion in this thread is great and needed to be made right?.... anyway this is off topic, just getting tired of reading the 1,000,000,000th person posting "blaarrggg i r hate spew!!!!11!!one! " when they clearly have tried it once or twice if at all.
I'm curious to know what sort of metrics you're using to determine how many people have tried the new mechanic or not and how many times. It's interesting to me that you should be able to have that kind of information. As for myself, I have done roughly twenty sites. Unfortunately I get caught up in sightseeing and stop probing down sigs after a while.
One more thing. I'm not a mod, but I still want to take a moment and say:
If all you're going to do is flame about other peoples' feedback and how you're tired of reading it, stop doing it in this thread. If you want to rage and howl and make fun of people that badly, do it in General Discussion.
The rest of us are trying to be at least somewhat productive here and all you seem to be contributing, if it can be considered a contribution at all, is noise. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 15:12:00 -
[359] - Quote
Degin'eth wrote:I found a way to get the FULL LOOT from a site, but the total value is still VERY small. From a full loot in null sec (-0.3) the value was ~10 million. Incredibly small for the time it takes to jump through gates > scan the sites > find a site > hack it and loot it > transport the goods to a tradehub (especially hard in null). And this is on the test sever, where people are not actively searching for sites. So, the loot needs to be MUCH more valuable otherwise nobody will bother to do them.. waste of feature and expansion.
Anyway, here's how you can get the full loot.
1) Use a cargo scanner on the hacking structure 2) See what kind of items drop. If it only drops data module (data cores, incognito process, etc). 3) When the cans are dispersed only loot the Data cans. Everything else will be scraps. 4) Repeat for the next structure 5) If the next one has salvage items, only loot Scraps cans and so on.
So, the bottom line. You can do these sites solo, and get the full loot, but it's still worthless to do because of the value.
Considering someone ratting can sit still, press F1, and instantly get their ISK, exploration should reward AT LEAST 50-100 mil / site.
I don't think you need the cargo scan per se since the cans are named. On relic sites scoop material cans with priority, on data sites scoop data cans with priority. Don't know yet in which cans bpc's spawn tho.
Your method seems like a good plan to prioritice which containers to hack first tho, especialy in hostile space.
Agree with you about the loot reward. It needs to be in balance with risk. Profession sites in low sec/null need to pay better then 4/10's in hisec. bpc jackpots are a step in the right direction but it remains to be seen how common they are. For all we know they could be much rarer then 4/10 invuls.
|
Nicola Arman
Saiph Industries Talocan United
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 15:36:00 -
[360] - Quote
Seriously though, who thought loot scattering around was a good idea? Who was THAT guy? It's so stupid....
Is there an explanation anywhere as to why this even takes place? |
|
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 15:58:00 -
[361] - Quote
Nicola Arman wrote:Seriously though, who thought loot scattering around was a good idea? Who was THAT guy? It's so stupid....
Is there an explanation anywhere as to why this even takes place?
Now that is an interesting question.
Also, who thought this would be good for exploration when logically and historically exploration was done by people that are methodical and deliberate in their actions. LOL imagine opening a tomb and the contents came flying out!
The entire spew mechanic seems so counter intuitive to the nature of exploration but fully inline with ship destruction.
Oh well. I guess we'll have to suck it up. I just feel badly for people that play on laptops with the mouse trap pad thingy. I guess they will have to buy a mouse. |
Nicola Arman
Saiph Industries Talocan United
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 16:06:00 -
[362] - Quote
Why implement a feature that isn't enjoyable at all and that makes no sense? This baffles me..
|
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 16:09:00 -
[363] - Quote
Quote:One more thing. I'm not a mod, but I still want to take a moment and say:
If all you're going to do is flame about other peoples' feedback and how you're tired of reading it, stop doing it in this thread. If you want to rage and howl and make fun of people that badly, do it in General Discussion.
The rest of us are trying to be at least somewhat productive here and all you seem to be contributing, if it can be considered a contribution at all, is noise.
i will let this slide because i know you would have to had read several pages past to see all the input I have been giving but all those posts get drowned out by the type of posts i was originally talking about, whether or not you wanna pretend this thread isn't filled with idiotic posts. speaking of which...
Quote:Seriously though, who thought loot scattering around was a good idea? Who was THAT guy? It's so stupid....
Is there an explanation anywhere as to why this even takes place?
this is exactly what i am talking about. the dev's answered this around page 10ish i think it was. they want something new that can encourage people to work with others. and before you go on to complain about how it won't encourage people to work together i would go back and look at just the dev responses in this thread, it will give you an idea of what they are aiming for. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3441
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 16:46:00 -
[364] - Quote
Wasilah wrote:this is exactly what i am talking about. the dev's answered this around page 10ish i think it was. they want something new that can encourage people to work with others. and before you go on to complain about how it won't encourage people to work together i would go back and look at just the dev responses in this thread, it will give you an idea of what they are aiming for.
Don't take a dev's word for it: go and find out just how much fun it is to be the extra person(s) in a hacking site waiting for your friend to probe something down, then waiting for your friend to hack the container, then madly scrambling to collect spew containers.
So before you refer people to the devs statements about how this mechanic is intended to encourage cooperative play, go and play it cooperatively with your friends and see what your opinion of the mechanic is like after you've been your friends helper.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
172
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 16:46:00 -
[365] - Quote
Tzar Sinak wrote:
Oh well. I guess we'll have to suck it up. I just feel badly for people that play on laptops with the mouse trap pad thingy. I guess they will have to buy a mouse.
It's maddening! Obviously during the design phase no one took even a minute to think about how this would work for anyone who's not sitting at a desk with a mouse. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3441
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 16:59:00 -
[366] - Quote
Manssell wrote:It's maddening! Obviously during the design phase no one took even a minute to think about how this would work for anyone who's not sitting at a desk with a mouse.
Not to mention those of us who play drunk or are just possessed of very poor mousing skills, and thus couldn't click on a moving fly poo to save our lives.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1057
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 17:10:00 -
[367] - Quote
These damn hit boxes make it impossible to collect any cans, I am sitting a nice 5k away from the hacking container and when I go to try to collect and of the pi+¦ata that comes out I move as a whopping 19m/s because I keep "colliding" with the container. It is beyond frustrating.
The loot pi+¦ata needs to go also, I tried to collect what has been regarded as the "valuable" containers and still got nothing but useless junk. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Nicola Arman
Saiph Industries Talocan United
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 17:34:00 -
[368] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Wasilah wrote:this is exactly what i am talking about. the dev's answered this around page 10ish i think it was. they want something new that can encourage people to work with others. and before you go on to complain about how it won't encourage people to work together i would go back and look at just the dev responses in this thread, it will give you an idea of what they are aiming for. Don't take a dev's word for it: go and find out just how much fun it is to be the extra person(s) in a hacking site waiting for your friend to probe something down, then waiting for your friend to hack the container, then madly scrambling to collect spew containers. So before you refer people to the devs statements about how this mechanic is intended to encourage cooperative play, go and play it cooperatively with your friends and see what your opinion of the mechanic is like after you've been your friends helper.
It's not fun. The spewing containers are not fun. Not a reward for succesfully hacking a computer database.. .
I actively partake in exploration sites. I'm excited about the hacking game but what is the deal with the pi+¦ata??
They want cooperative play? It's going to be easier to scan these sites. Gankers will intrude much easier. You'll bring a friend as a bodyguard if the drops are worth it. But where's the sense in chasing cans AFTER hacking the site properly and cracking the code?
Dumb... |
Wasilah
Big Diggers Trifectas Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 17:45:00 -
[369] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Don't take a dev's word for it: go and find out just how much fun it is to be the extra person(s) in a hacking site waiting for your friend to probe something down, then waiting for your friend to hack the container, then madly scrambling to collect spew containers.
So before you refer people to the devs statements about how this mechanic is intended to encourage cooperative play, go and play it cooperatively with your friends and see what your opinion of the mechanic is like after you've been your friends helper.
and go read my posts about it. i've done it both solo and with a friend in a gnosis. I didn't ever say i agreed with the idea or that i like it, just it is what it is and they've made it clear the can spew is going to stay although the specifics of the can spew might change (number of cans, speed of cans etc.).
we both went into it knowing there wouldn't be much for the second person to do so we planned accordingly. i would call him in once i was about to win/lose the hacking game. they don't have to just sit there staring at the screen, twirling their thumbs waiting for you to finish the mini-game, it's not like it's a shock when the game will end afterall...
there's a thousand ways you can make it more exciting for someone helping you do the sites, them sitting there watching you float in space has to be the absolutely most boring and least involved way you could do it.
- have them put a probe launcher on and go scan ahead while you hack the sites, it's not like you can't hold the mini-game while they run a jump or two back to you for the cans or to kill the cruiser that spawned.
- if they can't probe out sites have them run the belts, that takes almost as much thought as sitting there staring at you and adds a little extra isk in their pocket with almost no added risk.
shall i spell out more ways they can keep busy cause i have plenty. they call eve a sandbox for a reason, and it's not to only look for the cat turds hidden in the sand. |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
641
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 18:02:00 -
[370] - Quote
The loot spew mechanic and the hacking minigame isn't there for people who enjoy the current pve against NPCs. They're trying to reach out to the people who dislike combat sites (which is what the old exploration sites were, by the way). Different strokes for different folks.
As someone who dislikes the current system, I think the new mechanics are interesting, although I wish that the sites were more rewarding. |
|
Tsubutai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
207
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 18:10:00 -
[371] - Quote
Saw that SiSi got updated so ran another couple of sites to see what had changed. Was using a heron with a virus coherence/strength of 100/30, and I added a cargo scanner to my fit so I could see what was inside the cans before hacking them. Was pleasantly surprised by the value of the loot inside the hacking cans of the two nullsec data sites I tried - based on the cargo scans, I'd say they were both worth around 100m in total, which isn't bad. However, the difficulty of the minigame seems to have been ramped up *a lot* - the number of defensive nodes seems to have been increased significantly. Prior to the most recent patch, I could comfortably access most of the hacking cans with my so-so skills (archaeology IV, hacking IV), even in the harder 0.0 sites; this time, I was only able to access around one third of those I tried (and in most cases, I only got in on the second attempt). The number of spew cans seems to have been reduced, which made it easy to hoover up the ones with the loot - when I did get access to a hacking can, I consistently secured every worthwhile piece of loot that showed up on the cargo scan.
I still think that the return you get on your SP in the hacking minigame is rather skewed: going from hacking I to hacking IV increases your virus' coherence by 30 points and does nothing for its strength, but going from IV to V increases coherence by 35 points *and* increases strength by 10 because you get access to the T2 analyzer. Seems like an inversion of the usual diminishing returns on SP. |
Nicola Arman
Saiph Industries Talocan United
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 18:12:00 -
[372] - Quote
I think a lot of people would agree that if the spewing mechanic stays then the cans should move much much slower... |
Mario delTorres
GBTeam C0VEN
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 18:37:00 -
[373] - Quote
Nicola Arman wrote:I think a lot of people would agree that if the spewing mechanic stays then the cans should move much much slower... agree, and/or spewed in one direction only. |
M'aak'han
C-7
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 18:46:00 -
[374] - Quote
I just ran a Sansha Data site in lowsec after the update. Scanning for content, it was roughly worth 6 M, I'd say.
I managed to open all 3 containers, sometimes on second attempt only, using a Data analyzer II. The minigame was challenging on the Mainframe, but overall I'd say it was good.
The number of spewed cans has been reduced to 12, which makes things much more manageable. It's easier now to hover over the icons with the mouse and pick up what is of interest. The lifetime of the cans has been reduced to prevent collecting all of them of course, and I managed to grab 7-8 out of 12 each time with a nano Gnosis. I apparently missed only one of the cans I was interested in.
I'll run a few more sites when I get the time to, but as a first impression I'd say the system got closer to a sweet spot. At least, it didn't feel like a massive barrier to me this time.
I'm still not a fan of clicking icons in space, it has its own issues: incompatibility with the radial menu (when set on instant, how I like it); lack of available screen space because of all the windows already opened (local, overview, d-scan...) which forces to zoom out and thus makes the icons really tiny. I'm running Eve on a desktop, so I can use a mouse at least...
Overall I have the feeling it wouldn't turn me off mini-profession sites now, it was a much more satisfying experience this time (even if the site was crappy, but that's not uncommon in exploration.)
Again, that was only one site, so I'll have to run more and see if the experience is the same. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1057
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 19:41:00 -
[375] - Quote
Did a rogue drone data site, had to destroy all non-hacking structures to be able to not collide with anything. I cargo scanned the sites first to see what was in them. one site had a 'integrated' hobgoblin bpc in it, collected the data cans, got 2 data sheets and the bpc the next site had a 'integrated' hammerhead and 'integrated' hobgoblin, drone capillary fluid and drone cerebral fragment. the spew can only released one data container. which only contained a data sheet. the BPC came from a materials container as did the drone capillary fluid. I was unable to collect the other items.
the site as a whole could be considered valuable as the BPC allowed for a total of 180 drones to be produced which would allow for about 135mill Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Naomi Hale
Children of New Eden
83
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 20:56:00 -
[376] - Quote
They're good, at least the ones I've found.
Issues I have are spotting the container icons in some sites, against the sky box and overlapping objects getting in the way.
Could we have sites with just the data or relic objects? It would explain why they were hidden until you've found them, It's weird warping to a site and finding derelict Caldari stations or objects the size of carriers and wondering how everyone missed it until you showed up. I find this especially true for the relic sites where you stumble upon an ancient Terran ship (as shown in the origins trailer) next to 'modern' New Eden assets, shouldn't it have been picked clean if someone got here first?
Or maybe a radius around the hackable object, say 25km, where other assets aren't spawned?
But there's something missing, something sleek, nimble and dedicated to exploration...The Sanctuary I choose to believe what I was PROGRAMMED to believe! |
Blue Binary
Polychoron
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 20:57:00 -
[377] - Quote
Killua Zoldyeck wrote:Johan Toralen wrote:Did run 3 low sec guristas relic sites: Rat spawns are easy enough to run the sites in cov ops frig. I'm not sure how can you take down a Cruiser with an unarmed Covert Ops? Care to share your fit/ship? With a Buzzard I can't fit a Light Missile Luncher but even If I could do that, I'm not very convinced that 12 dps will kill the cruiser before it kills me with no tank. Let's say I train for the Helios that has the single drone. That will be 29 dps (can't fit a gun or I wouldn't be able to fit a Probe Launcher and Covert Ops Cloak, so that's the best it can do). In my eyes a single cruiser means I have to leave the site forever (I'm talking about low sec roaming so it's not really an option to switch to a combat ship. Also, switching to a combat ship it's not what an explorer should do in the expansion that promises to remove NPCs because "exploration is not about shooting at red crosses"). Definitely doable in a Helios with a Hobgoblin II, Helios has a bonus for a thermal drone, also rat was a Serpentis. Takes about 15 minutes to kill it.
Cap stable with MWD on, orbit rat at 20km, need a drone damage amp II, sit back and wait. Downside is both your MWD and drone MWD sig will make you easy to scan down.
I recorded the session if you would like me to upload it. Not really exciting though.
|
Malady Jane
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 22:32:00 -
[378] - Quote
I just gave the new mechanics a try. The hacking minigame seems absolutely void of strategy. It simply isn't interesting or compelling to do. Maybe there should be some kind of visibility of adjacent nodes so you can search for the core in a way that doesn't involve just checking every single node until you find it. Also, the gameplay is the same between data and relics, so why are there both data and relics? (I'm not a big fan of WiS, but if archaeology involved walking in ruins
The first site spawned a frigate at some point. I probably failed the minigame and immediately re-attempted it without noticing the frigate (the type wasn't added to my overview yet). After scooping some loot I noticed I was into armor so I engaged my MWD and tried to get range to break the frigates targeting so I could cloak. The frigate was able to keep me targeted until I left grid. When I warped back onto grid and began to approach the frigate, the frigate and all 4 cans (only one of which I had hacked) exploded and the site disappeared in front of my eyes. That seemed strange. Total loot gained from this first site was on the order of 4k isk.
The second site I did I faired a bit better, being more ready for the loot pinata and scooping around 5 cans. The last can appeared to be tractoring closer to my ship when it disappeared - I felt I had caught it but it expired anyway. I also killed two frigates, for 12k bounty each. Loot was again poor with the exception of a inventing thingy worth 12.5M. Overall the loot simply wasn't worth the time, though I imagine that the random big jackpots might make it even out in the long term. In the short term, though, the crap loot isn't enough to engage me to overlook the crap gameplay.
The loot pinata is such a terrible idea. I understand the goal of making exploration a multiplayer activity, but as many people have mentioned the loot pinata isn't a good way of doing that: it isn't interesting sitting and waiting for the hacker to finish the minigame (though admittedly with the current state of the minigame, the loot vacuumers aren't missing much), the twitchiness trying to click on small moving icons in limited time doesn't seem to mesh with the rest of EVE online gameplay, there doesn't seem to be much feedback regarding catching the dispersing cans (it should be clear when a can is successfully being tractored and when it is okay to start going after the next can), and finally even if the loot is balanced around not being able to get all the cans it feels like you're missing out moreso than if the extra cans just never spawned.
Why not make the minigame a multiplayer activity which releases extra cans if multiple players are able to do multiple hacks simultaneously? Then you could ditch the terrible loot pinata idea as well as have a more interesting cooperative minigame that actually involves input from all players involved instead of having one guy play the minigame while the other guys wait.
|
Kazumi Kingslay
Audentia et Artis E.B.O.L.A.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 23:35:00 -
[379] - Quote
Malady Jane wrote: Why not make the minigame a multiplayer activity which releases extra cans if multiple players are able to do multiple hacks simultaneously? Then you could ditch the terrible loot pinata idea as well as have a more interesting cooperative minigame that actually involves input from all players involved instead of having one guy play the minigame while the other guys wait.
That would actually fix quiet a lot of things I feel. You could make them Hack the same "grid" from different directions, and make the hack a lot harder. With some additional amount of design hacking could become quiet a skill to have. Hacking in a group even more so. [edit] There could be multiple objectives during hack to achieve this in a fluid and approachable way. It would benefit solo hacking just as much. [/edit]
As it is, I don't see the improvement either. It's new and shiny, and the direction is very interesting. But it doesn't quiet feel like it's done. You can probably make people do it if the loot is shiny enough. But I doubt that was the design goal, since you can make people do pretty much anything if the reward is right :D
Also all the hacking support stuff in the game feels a bit weird now. 300 calibrating rig for 40% improved access difficulty? What does that even do now. |
Veyer Erastus
Red-dormice
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 01:52:00 -
[380] - Quote
Run a few Relic sites in Low today, but every time i tried to analyze them got "You cannot activate Relic Analyzer on XXX". After a few tries i can only assume my low skill is what stops me. But if that's the case, i think the message should be changed to something more informative. |
|
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 02:45:00 -
[381] - Quote
The null sites are really really good now. So good that I have already killed my hopes and dreams making really good isk from expo because there is no way this will stand. Having sites that are easily 50-200 mil that take 10-15 minutes to run I don't think will stand for long. |
Anela Cistine
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
171
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 03:38:00 -
[382] - Quote
I'm going to go against the grain and say I like the spew mechanic. Yeah, 1 guy working alone won't catch everything. But if that 1 guy drags 2 or 3 newbies in fast frigates along for the ride, they will easily catch everything. Newbies work cheap, they don't demand an equal share, especially if while you haul them around to talk and teach them stuff you know about EVE. Toss 'em a couple million ISK and they think you are Santa Claus. The click spew is one of the few mechanics where bringing along another player, even an inexperienced player, could be better than multi-boxing. Anything that encourages cooperation over going solo is a good thing.
Idea: Have you considered making the hacking mini-game an actual game in the Captain's Quarters? It's a fun little mini-game, so people might enjoy playing around with it even if they can't win anything. It would also let people practice a little in a safe environment, where they don't have to worry about getting ganked while they figure out how the mini-game works. |
Anita1
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 03:44:00 -
[383] - Quote
So thats what you understand when you say you are trying to make something more interesting?
Its just a stupid clicking around now. Worthless loot most of the time and no challenge at all since you removed the NPC's. Once again you made something easier for new players in a way which is just boring and annoying. Targeting the can and activating a module was way better than that worthless clicking now, plus the way we are supposed to get the loot now (again annoying clicking in space) is just worthless, you guys made the loot **** and i'm not even getting all the loot.
Thx for destroying the game with everything you do. |
Naomi Hale
Children of New Eden
84
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 04:33:00 -
[384] - Quote
You may also want to talk to the guys on your website team and get them to change the explorer page.
EVE Online - Explorer
I'm not sure new players will find the new exploration a solo activity or that a Tengu is the best ship now.
While I do like (most of) the changes you've made, it still doesn't feel like exploration, more like 'Advanced Salvage.' I'd like true exploration to not focus on isk/hour numbers or competition but more on discovery, the unknown and the feel of history in New Eden.
I'd like to sometimes scan down an infrequent and difficult site, warp there and find something like a rarely seen art asset with a (even lesser seen) Jove ship next to it, as I move toward them a dialogue from the Jove says 'You are not ready for these secrets yet' and warps away.
Or flying my tiny frigate alongside a titanic ruin and having some kind of search/spot light sweep the hull studying the structure and my character's observations and computer data being used to create invention cores or bpc's and not just finding random items. Maybe even have a log that takes the progress of several sites and you build up data and knowledge from each until you can use it to create an item for research and invention.
My point is it's still not exploration and for an expansion named 'Odyssey' that's bad. I hope it won't be the same lenght of time betwwen this and your next pass at exploration as it was between 'Apocrypha' and 'Odyssey'. I choose to believe what I was PROGRAMMED to believe! |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
146
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 05:18:00 -
[385] - Quote
"Exploration" in EVE is actually a misnomer at the moment. The more apparopriate term for what we do is "Treasure Hunting".
I didn't actually get to try out any data sites today, what with the server going down before I could go back to it. I will, however, be finding another one and trying it out again once the server's back up.
|
Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
777
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 06:36:00 -
[386] - Quote
Blue Binary wrote: Definitely doable in a Helios with a Hobgoblin II, Helios has a bonus for a thermal drone, also rat was a Serpentis. Takes about 15 minutes to kill it...
You're not really suggesting that as a viable tactic I hope? Sitting around for 15 minutes watching damage notifications while that solo drone slowly chews through a cruiser sounds like all kinds of fun.
Better hope there are no elite cruisers in those sites.
Seriously, trying to take down anything other than a drone with a cov ops' anemic DPS would be a painful experience. What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
Mario delTorres
GBTeam C0VEN
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 07:28:00 -
[387] - Quote
I've scanned data site in null sec last night. When I've used cargo scanner on all 6 data containers it give me result: all items need 516m3 to collect. I don't want to do exploration in iteron. I know I'm unable to get it all, but I'm afraid I can miss something valuable just after I fill my cargo with less valuable parts.
I've noticed that a big part of this are parts needed to build data interfaces. Every one has 1m3 volume. I think reducing it to 0.01m3 (similiar to rigs parts) wll be clue.
|
Heinel Coventina
University of Caille Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 07:44:00 -
[388] - Quote
Naomi Hale wrote:I'd like to sometimes scan down an infrequent and difficult site, warp there and find something like a rarely seen art asset with a (even lesser seen) Jove ship next to it, as I move toward them a dialogue from the Jove says 'You are not ready for these secrets yet' and warps away.
Or flying my tiny frigate alongside a titanic ruin and having some kind of search/spot light sweep the hull studying the structure and my character's observations and computer data being used to create invention cores or bpc's and not just finding random items. Maybe even have a log that takes the progress of several sites and you build up data and knowledge from each until you can use it to create an item for research and invention.
My point is it's still not exploration and for an expansion named 'Odyssey' that's bad. I hope it won't be the same length of time betwwen this and your next pass at exploration as it was between 'Apocrypha' and 'Odyssey'.
I think this is better done as a live event of some sort, or on going story line events. The mechanic will become tired after the first time you saw it, then it gets put on something along the lines of eve-survival. But it doesn't have a tangible reward, so people will start seeing it as a pointless activity and shun it.
If it is done as an event, it'll receive more attention and progress continuously, it's much better than putting it in as a game mechanic and forget about it, like the epic arcs and COSMOS. |
Blue Binary
Polychoron
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 08:12:00 -
[389] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Blue Binary wrote:Killua Zoldyeck wrote:I'm not sure how can you take down a Cruiser with an unarmed Covert Ops? Care to share your fit/ship?
With a Buzzard I can't fit a Light Missile Luncher but even If I could do that, I'm not very convinced that 12 dps will kill the cruiser before it kills me with no tank.
Let's say I train for the Helios that has the single drone. That will be 29 dps (can't fit a gun or I wouldn't be able to fit a Probe Launcher and Covert Ops Cloak, so that's the best it can do).
In my eyes a single cruiser means I have to leave the site forever (I'm talking about low sec roaming so it's not really an option to switch to a combat ship. Also, switching to a combat ship it's not what an explorer should do in the expansion that promises to remove NPCs because "exploration is not about shooting at red crosses").
Definitely doable in a Helios with a Hobgoblin II, Helios has a bonus for a thermal drone, also rat was a Serpentis. Takes about 15 minutes to kill it. Cap stable with MWD on, orbit rat at 20km, need a drone damage amp II, sit back and wait. Downside is both your MWD and drone MWD sig will make you easy to scan down. I recorded the session if you would like me to upload it. Not really exciting though. [:Ugh] You're not really suggesting that as a viable tactic I hope? Sitting around for 15 minutes watching damage notifications while that solo drone slowly chews through a cruiser sounds like all kinds of fun. Better hope there are no elite cruisers in those sites. Seriously, trying to take down anything other than a drone with a cov ops' anemic DPS would be a painful experience. Yes, it is boring waiting for the cruiser to die. Not the most efficient tactic, but it is doable if you don't want to give the site up. Just me being stubborn I guess.
NPC's are being removed from k-space relic/hack sites, so it's a moot point.
|
Naomi Hale
Children of New Eden
86
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 08:40:00 -
[390] - Quote
Heinel Coventina wrote:I think this is better done as a live event of some sort, or on going story line events. The mechanic will become tired after the first time you saw it, then it gets put on something along the lines of eve-survival. But it doesn't have a tangible reward, so people will start seeing it as a pointless activity and shun it.
If it is done as an event, it'll receive more attention and progress continuously, it's much better than putting it in as a game mechanic and forget about it, like the epic arcs and COSMOS.
I wasn't suggesting they all be the same encounter, the one I wrote was off the top of my head, the potential exists for thousands of individual encounters and scenarios. They could even be multi-layered or branching, with one site leading to another in a story developing lore and mystery (and if you must a big reward at the end).
Live events require planning and coordination that might not appeal to a solo player or explorer, it also requires multiple players being present to justify, CCP isn't going to stage events for a single capsuleer on the off chance they notice and post about it. Look at the 'Awakened Infomorph', do you really think every sighting has been posted or even noticed and that the community, at large, is even aware it exists. Just yesterday there were people in the Live Events channel saying how disappointed they were with the Mininela Erinen testimony event or that they wanted to take part and missed it. Hours of waiting and chatting to see two carriers dock, undock and warp away (I missed the actual event so my description might not do it justice). Not to mention if you have an exploration live event with a large group of players it stops being about exploration and discovering the unknown because there are twenty or so other people there.
If players find the sites tired or repetitive then it's fine if they use third-party websites and apps to avoid them, they're in it for the isk, the pay off and the numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if the types and potential payout for the new exploration content isn't mapped, tagged and posted on a website within hours of release. That doesn't mean that everyone has looked it up and will use it to avoid content. 'Project Atlas' was an amazing piece of work and community ingenuity but I don't check it every time I go into a wormhole as it removes that element of the unknown and adventure (they've even named unknown space as 'Anoikis' sort of defeats the point).
Exploration isn't always finding Atlantis and selling the resulting treasure to the British Museum, you are going to find uninhabited islands, shipwrecks and wonders like the Galapagos or Barrier Reef along the way and they can be just as rewarding to some people. It's discovery, mystery, adventure and knowledge, it's understanding the universe, not how much something is worth on the market.
Sorry, went on a rant there... cough, anyway, I don't think live events would work.
I choose to believe what I was PROGRAMMED to believe! |
|
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
412
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 10:24:00 -
[391] - Quote
One Relic container opened in 0.7 : all cans looted except scrap ones : 1980isk total.
I know that I was unlucky and so on, but even with the worst luck possible, if you want to buff exploration you'll need to have a minimum reward higher than a rookie npc bounty... G££ <= Me |
Avada K3davra
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 10:35:00 -
[392] - Quote
I don't like new scatering conteners and hacking game, they must die. |
Aminam Proweco
Smegnet Incorporated
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 10:48:00 -
[393] - Quote
All players here agree that spewing pinata is awful. Get rid of it. As for team play here are some ideas (some are mentioned before): Add layers for better loot Add timer and allow people to hack together to promote team play
Think players would like timer more than chasing the cans! |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
2708
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 11:05:00 -
[394] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:We've reduced the number of cans and are looking at loot table again. In general though, the scattering and picking up of cans remains. I've got to protest this decision in the strongest possible terms. The loot scatter mechanic is not fun or engaging either for one person or for multiple people. Please listen to the feedback that players are giving you and consider a different mechanic, because this one will not work. Mane 614
|
Naomi Hale
Children of New Eden
86
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 12:03:00 -
[395] - Quote
It tried a few 'Relic' sites now, spread over high, low and null sec. They've all been salvage and junk. Are there any that contain ancient relics or something, maybe Talocan, Yan Jung and Takmahl. Stuff that, even if its worthless on the market, is mixed in with the salvage, just something to make it feel more like a forgotten relic rather than an ancient, abandon garbage scow? I choose to believe what I was PROGRAMMED to believe! |
Mhax Arthie
85
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 14:23:00 -
[396] - Quote
Onatoh 0.3 - Regional Guristas data center was guarded by 2 npc on warp in. The data center is buried in some rock formation, my ship got stuck: unable to loot. Almost got killed by the spawned npc. Looting these mini cans is just awfull, I sense a major QQ wave when the expansion will hit the live server from those who love eploration but never bothered to test it. This is not good at all. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
149
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 14:40:00 -
[397] - Quote
I could have sworn we were told something about "We're going to remove NPC spawns from these sites", yet they still spawn on failure.
Now, I don't have a big problem. My Probe can fit a sufficient tank, field three T2 light drones at a time and I've got enough fittings for two T2 rocket launchers. I can defend myself against the rats that spawn. I'm just curious if they're actually being removed or if someone's mind changed and we weren't told.
PS - The Probe is an amazing ship. |
Veyer Erastus
Red-dormice
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:26:00 -
[398] - Quote
Finally done a couple of data sites in WH. Was surprised to see NPCs there and even more surprised that i could do WH one's when my skill wasn't enough for low-sec sites. While the hacking mini game was fun, can't say i there is anything fun in what comes next. Clicking furiously on loot containers is kinda dumb. Not to mention it doesn't help group players as there is only so much "useful" containers - more then half was had useless junk, which will only fill your cargo. |
Xia Kairui
Delete Inc. Enigma Project
20
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:40:00 -
[399] - Quote
I ran a few sites in high, low and WH space - maybe half a dozen so sample size is not really a thing.
Important things first: Value varied wildly, but I did more or less grab the loot cans randomly as I had no idea which ones were worth chasing. Most sites contained crap, but I found one Serpentis site in high sec that gave me about 22M in decryptors and such. Most other HS sites yielded junk though. A mag site in a C2 WH yielded maybe 200k of junk, but this might have been since I was using the Drake to loot AND one of the three cans decided to spew its contents through the Sleeper structure so I couldn't chase the cans.
Personally I hate the spewing mechanism (I'm too old to play twitch games, that's one of the reasons I like EVE) and I think it will not promote team play except in rare circumstances like WH runs where you are in a gang already. The main problem is that the guys not doing the scanning/hacking are sitting there twiddling their thumbs. I'd rather go mining than help a friend with chasing spew cans.
The hacking game was ... meh. Better than waiting for a cycle to finish, but overall it was too much random clicking around. The difference between Hacking IV and Hacking V was enormous.
I am not sure how this will turn out for LS exploration. So far it wasn't a big issue since you could watch d-scan, but with the hacking game and the spew madness you need to focus too much on that. Well, that's a job for the buddy that you take along as spew can chaser - he is also now a dedicated d-scan spammer. I think I already said I'd rather go and mine.
Summary: Initially I've started training my TQ character to Hacking V when I started the test since that gave such a massive boost, but right now I think I won't bother as the spewing is annoying for being twitchy in a universe where twitching hasn't been a factor yet and because the direction of spew can be such that you can't catch anything if you're unlucky. |
Nicola Arman
Saiph Industries Talocan United
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 16:39:00 -
[400] - Quote
True exploration is done in W-Space...
I can't stand chasing after these cans! |
|
Naomi Hale
Children of New Eden
88
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 16:52:00 -
[401] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:I've got to protest this decision in the strongest possible terms. The loot scatter mechanic is not fun or engaging either for one person or for multiple people. Please listen to the feedback that players are giving you and consider a different mechanic, because this one will not work. While I would like to see something else, realistically it's too close to Odyssey's launch to head back to the drawing board. This is generally what's coming, no amount of player outrage on the test server will change that, especially when it's not unanimous.
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I could have sworn we were told something about "We're going to remove NPC spawns from these sites", yet they still spawn on failure.
Now, I don't have a big problem. My Probe can fit a sufficient tank, field three T2 light drones at a time and I've got enough fittings for two T2 rocket launchers. I can defend myself against the rats that spawn. I'm just curious if they're actually being removed or if someone's mind changed and we weren't told.
PS - The Probe is an amazing ship. It was said at fanfest that they'd be removed. I think early on into player feedback people complained that removing NPCs entirely made it too easy (this was back during the '8 probe' ranting period) so they were added back in as a failure to hack punishment. Then people that use Covert-Ops frigates for exploration (a perfectly normal thing to do) found they had little to no offensive capabilities. I myself have flown these sites in both a Heron and a Tengu and while the Heron had some hairy moments it was fine. The problems come when it's on TQ and you feel the need for a Covert-Ops cloak in Low and Null but sacrifice bonuses and combat. There is little win- win here. Though chances are someone will come up with the perfect ship and fit within a day of release.
Veyer Erastus wrote:Finally done a couple of data sites in WH. Was surprised to see NPCs there and even more surprised that i could do WH one's when my skill wasn't enough for low-sec sites. While the hacking mini game was fun, can't say i there is anything fun in what comes next. Clicking furiously on loot containers is kinda dumb. Not to mention it doesn't help group players as there is only so much "useful" containers - more then half was had useless junk, which will only fill your cargo. Wormhole Data and Relic sites haven't been updated in the recent patches (as far as I know). Even when they are I think it's been stated that the NPCs will remain. It's a risk/reward thing as 'Relic' sites in a class 3 wormhole on TQ can currently net you 100 million isk or more. Removing NPCs but keeping the loot the same would be massively unbalanced. I choose to believe what I was PROGRAMMED to believe! |
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 17:16:00 -
[402] - Quote
One problem I am facing with the new scatter mechanics: I can't selectively pull in loot thus my cargohold will often be near full because of "useless" stuff. For example the "Power Couplings", 1m^3 each, 56 from a single can. That's 56m^3 of precious space wasted. Maybe have the stuff we manage to grab go into a temporary container?
Currently I will just jettison all my cargo before a new hack attempt, then sort it out, but that seems very suboptimal.
Also, weren't the 0.0 data/relic sites supposed to be finished, too? In Gurista Space, all the cans are on top of each other and upon failing to hack, a rat spawns, saw frigs and cruisers. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Naren Vintas
Space Busters
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 17:53:00 -
[403] - Quote
It's been said many times before, but I need to say it myself. Here's my individual feedback on the new "exploring".
Needless to say, I like the idea behind the hacking minigame. It's something new, and has some potential. Although it's not very eve-like. It can get frustrating a bit at times, but overall it's some nice change, for me, personally. There's something in successfully hacking the site. But in the success lies the greatest failure of this new idea: can spewing.
What's wrong with can spewing? Why do I consider it a failure? - Of all things, it definitely is not enjoyable and feels more like a punishment than reward. You have to click the tiny icons on screen that jump chaotically around and get further and further away from the ship. - Unlike pretty much everything else clickable in space, these loot cans are the only thing that cannot be added to an overview. This is a major drawback. - You can't really see whether you are already tracking the can into your bay, or not. You can't really see, whether you can proceed to the next. - The collision with the environment can make it nigh impossible to actually catch any container. Congratulations! You've hacked tremendously hard site. Now it's going to spew out cans in such way, that you won't catch any of them. - Loot in these containers is often crap. - Even should I bring a friend, or a dozen, it will not make it any more pleasant.
I understand that you want to have players do something nicer for a change than just staring at their overview, issuing orbit/approach commands and activating modules. Hacking minigame is actually something that works and can be enjoyable. Alas! believe me, container spewing is not something I am willing to accept. You guys at CCP seem pretty adamant at keeping the mechanic in the game, despite a lot of negative feedback towards it. Please do listen to the players and review the idea from scratch. If you really want to keep it in, make it a failure proc, and not result of a successful hack.
Reducing the amount of cans spewed and/or increasing their lifetime is not going to help either. The whole idea should be scrapped.
I realize that Odyssey deadline is almost here. But I'd rather have one feature less/postponed, than a crappy feature on time.
On a side note: I wouldn't call this "exploring" or "exploration sites". It has nothing to do with exploring, really. Just some treasure hunting. That's what it should be called. Treasure Hunting professions. Definately not Exploration. I don't feel like I'm exploring anything.
That is all from me for now. Hope the feedback comes useful. |
Naomi Hale
Children of New Eden
88
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 17:59:00 -
[404] - Quote
@ Naren Vintas - Maybe that's a solution. You successfully hack something you open it like a normal can and get all the loot, fail and you get spew cans (lots of them) and whatever loot you can grab. I choose to believe what I was PROGRAMMED to believe! |
Energetic Monk
Wayforward Emergent Technologies
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 18:29:00 -
[405] - Quote
Naomi Hale wrote:I've tried a few 'Relic' sites now, spread over high, low and null sec. They've all been salvage and junk. Are there any that contain ancient relics or something, maybe Talocan, Yan Jung and Takmahl. Stuff that, even if its worthless on the market, is mixed in with the salvage, just something to make it feel more like a forgotten relic rather than an ancient, abandon garbage scow?
To get your hands on any of the ancient relics aka Sleepers, Talocan, Yan Yung and Takmahl, you have to go to regional COSMOS constellation for each empire race. Tried out the minmatar one in ANI and immediately found out that after analyzing 3 cans and having 30 or so to go, i'm glad that i've ticked off the hacking part of exploration. It doesn't even match the tedious process of acanning out 50 sig in a w-space system, it's worse. To top that off, the can spewing will opens up for an up an coming entrepreneur to have a tanking ship and just zipping around scoping what the one doing the hacking can't get or reach in time. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 18:52:00 -
[406] - Quote
Naomi Hale wrote:Though chances are someone will come up with the perfect ship and fit within a day of release.
Check out the force recon ships, especially Falcon. Has nice slot layout, cloaky, plenty cpu and power to fit to your liking. Under 200m isk. Pilgrim will lose its relevance for profession sites tho if rat removal stays. |
marVLs
161
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 19:15:00 -
[407] - Quote
Let's say it honestly: No one will do those sites after Odyssey hits (maybe few times to get frustrated and state it's not worth it and not fun)
Im very disappointed in Odyssey. Yep it brings some cool features (rebalance, system transitions, upgrades to probe scanning etc), but it fail at it's assumptions - exploration.
I was expecting we get new DED sites, more dynamic and unpredictable. Radar and magneto sites would be something new (and cool, not that bad containers spawn), that we get totally new types of sites, new exploration system with more random content and gameplay, some new areas like going to site where is some magnetic storm and there's a random chance to be created a something like wormhole pass that suck us in and get into random generated pocket with random environment.
Some ideas to that new pocket like systems: - You get sucked in this anomaly and land near to Red Giant star, shilds are getting em/thermal damage, on-board computer says you got 4mins until star will swells more and destroy You, You looking desperately for exit and see it 60km away, but on other side there's some strange structure, so You have to decide: go examine it and maybe get something or you wont make it in time so You GTFO to exit - sucked in anomaly and land in as it seems nowhere, suddenly there's a bip sound meaning collision alert, You turn around and see meteorite flying into You, so let's start evasive manuvering procedures or just call it "DAAAAAMN! RUUUUN!" You evade it but now You hear bips like crazy... from darkness of space You see hundrets of meteorites floating into You'r direction, desperately You evading them, and try to salvage wreck of some kind of ship - land on ancient civilization battlefield, with all that wrecks and traps - witness center of galaxy - be abducted by aliens
Generally exploration like it should be - unpredictable, random, sometimes peaceful and quiet, sometimes fast, dangerous, exploration system that makes when You launch those probes You don't know what kind of incredible or terrifying adventure awaits You, but You know one thing it will be something new, maybe even something that You will talk about to other players (or even in RL) for months. Journey/adventure that can give You not even single ISK but what's happened on it will be enought to be satisfied. I know system like that it's hard to make, hell maybe even incredible hard, but i rather wait for it more and more until You figure it out or come up with that brilliant idea.
And we got what? Every site is the same... |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 19:21:00 -
[408] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Check out the force recon ships, especially Falcon. Has nice slot layout, cloaky, plenty cpu and power to fit to your liking. Under 200m isk. Pilgrim will lose its relevance for profession sites tho if rat removal stays because it doesn't have the mid slots that the others have.
I like this idea. However, with the most recent increase in pain in the ass puzzles that are generated makes the role bonus on the t1 scanning frigates quite valuable. Having that extra +10 strength makes a world of difference on those 'difficult' puzzles. It would be nice if the t2 scanning frigates would get such a bonus. Having to comitt a mid to a cargo scanner to speed up completition time is quite annoying as well. Does make me wonder about the despawn mechanics for the sites. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 19:32:00 -
[409] - Quote
blink alt wrote:I like this idea. However, with the most recent increase in pain in the ass puzzles that are generated makes the role bonus on the t1 scanning frigates quite valuable. Having that extra +10 strength makes a world of difference on those 'difficult' puzzles. It would be nice if the t2 scanning frigates would get such a bonus. Having to comitt a mid to a cargo scanner to speed up completition time is quite annoying as well. Does make me wonder about the despawn mechanics for the sites.
You can fit a memetic algoritm bank and a emission scope sharpener on the Falcon to help with the hacking. I get 135 virus coherence and 30 virus strenght with my skills at V. Plenty of medium slots for the new probe mods (no need for grav rigs and ship bonuses on that!). And still room for cargo scanner aswell! |
Freyya
Omni Galactic Resource Excavation Inc. Tri-Star Galactic Industries
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 21:26:00 -
[410] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:blink alt wrote:I like this idea. However, with the most recent increase in pain in the ass puzzles that are generated makes the role bonus on the t1 scanning frigates quite valuable. Having that extra +10 strength makes a world of difference on those 'difficult' puzzles. It would be nice if the t2 scanning frigates would get such a bonus. Having to comitt a mid to a cargo scanner to speed up completition time is quite annoying as well. Does make me wonder about the despawn mechanics for the sites. You can fit a memetic algoritm bank and a emission scope sharpener on the Falcon to help with the hacking. I get 135 virus coherence and 30 virus strenght with my skills at V. Plenty of medium slots for the new probe mods (no need for grav rigs and ship bonuses on that!). And still room for cargo scanner aswell!
Rigs need to be fixed, they currently do nothing afaik. Access difficulty bonus has no use anymore since it's not about the chance to open a container anymore. That bonus now needs to go towards strength or coherency.
As for my latest and greatest in the world of SiSi:
made a few bug reports as to relic sites still being messed up. Structures making it impossible to approach, containers still ontop of eachother...(who said they where all fixed again?...)
Don't know if it's intentional but i find that the harder (more exclusively named, not debree or whatever but something along the lines of communications array or whatnot (more important, more loot holding?)) containers carry more anti nodes, less repair or halving nodes and my attack value (lvl 4 on arch/hacking and t1 equipement ofcourse on a proteus) gets cut in half to 10 instead of the 20 i get on less important containers. Is this intentional or a bug? When navigating through these harder minigames with more anti nodes an attack value of 10 is just useless since the anti nodes all have 20 or higher. These arn't even nullsec sites but simple lowsec ones, though i haven't yet found any difference between high/low/null.
The spew mechanic is now more manageble. Less cans, little bit less speed and less time to pick them up. That said, it's now pretty easy to get 8/10 cans and the ones you dont get are the ones labled scrap container. As far as i can tell those are generally pretty useless. Data containers first, then materials and equipment and lastly scrap. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of franticly getting anything you can no?
While you're looking at the rigs for hacking/archeology for the bonus they give, fix their calibration needs too plz. 200 calibration for t1 and 300 for t2 is just a tiny bit goatballs....my opinion anyways. |
|
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 21:52:00 -
[411] - Quote
Freyya wrote: Rigs need to be fixed, they currently do nothing afaik. Access difficulty bonus has no use anymore since it's not about the chance to open a container anymore. That bonus now needs to go towards strength or coherency.
I get 10 points bonus to coherency from each rig (125 to 135). Just double checked it. Don't want to spread wrong information. I guess they haven't updated the desription yet. But the rigs work. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
152
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 21:59:00 -
[412] - Quote
"Goatballs" is a new adjective to me. Interesting.
Having done some sites in high, some in low and several in null, I can say that I definitely notice a difference. For one, I see a lot more pretty explosions in Nullsec as computer equipment and ancient ruins detonate right in front of me after a second failed hacking attempt. The traps in nullsec hacking puzzles are much more powerful and vicious. Those restoration nodes? Pure sadism. Suppression nodes? For me that's very nearly a "Hacking Attempt Failed" right there.
Very rarely happens in highsec sites though, and I've only seen a few mainframes self-destruct in low.
In terms of containers though, I've seen the "good stuff" (decryptors, datacores, BPCs) appearing in data containers, equipment containers and I even got an Incognito Tuner Interface BPC from a scrap container. Materials containers were all largely Carbon.
Does the Carbon/Charon scam still work? I may have to try it after the hacking sites start giving me bucketfuls of Carbon when Odyssey goes live. |
Teddyboom
Confrerie de Kaedri Echoes of Nowhere
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 22:12:00 -
[413] - Quote
We can use a cargo scanner on the container and we can see what will drop in the spewed Can.
But when we use a cargo scanner on the spewed Can i get an empty box as if the can where empty, except that i still loot stuff in these "so call empty can by the scanner"
The cargo scanner should work on spewed can and display the TRUE loot (not an empty box)
sorry if i misspelled , not my native language
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
152
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 22:22:00 -
[414] - Quote
Why are you wasting time trying to use a scanner on those mini cans? You should be trying to grab them. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 22:25:00 -
[415] - Quote
Sites still despawn when you warp out. Not good. Hacking game was pretty hard on that hisec site. Defo too hard for exploration beginners. Tons of 70 firewalls and barely any tools. |
Teddyboom
Confrerie de Kaedri Echoes of Nowhere
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 22:27:00 -
[416] - Quote
I manage to get like 6 can at each spew and have always free time between 2 can.
Not the easiest thing to do but i manage to get like 5~~6 scan easy with cargo scanner.
with such tactic i could manage to ignore cheap loot and looking for the rare material and get them first. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
152
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 22:28:00 -
[417] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Sites still despawn when you warp out. Not good. Hacking game was pretty hard on that hisec site. Defo too hard for exploration beginners. Tons of 70 firewalls and barely any tools.
Sites have always despawned on warp-out. I wouldn't expect that to change.
If the sites were easy enough for "beginners", all you'd get is crap loot that's not worth the time. Or if the loot was reasonably decent, you'd get them being farmed as much as the new system can be. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 22:40:00 -
[418] - Quote
Quote:Sites have always despawned on warp-out. I wouldn't expect that to change.
You sure? Maybe i confuse it with missions. Then the least they could do is to finaly remove the rat spawns so the sites can be done in flimsy boats. They want the dichotomy between profession and combat sites then they should be consequent about it so ships can be fittet accordingly without compromises.
Quote:If the sites were easy enough for "beginners", all you'd get is crap loot that's not worth the time. Or if the loot was reasonably decent, you'd get them being farmed as much as the new system can be.
That was a hisec site. It shouldn't be challenging for a skilled out character like mine with t2 analyzers and hacking rigs. I don't care about the loot in hisec. Was just testing it because i found it on my way. Didn't find anything in low and null today to test.
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
153
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 22:51:00 -
[419] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Quote:Sites have always despawned on warp-out. I wouldn't expect that to change. You sure? Maybe i confuse it with missions. Then the least they could do is to finaly remove the rat spawns so the sites can be done in flimsy boats. They want the dichotomy between profession and combat sites then they should be consequent about it so ships can be fittet accordingly without compromises. Quote:If the sites were easy enough for "beginners", all you'd get is crap loot that's not worth the time. Or if the loot was reasonably decent, you'd get them being farmed as much as the new system can be. That was a hisec site. It shouldn't be challenging for a skilled out character like mine with t2 analyzers and hacking rigs. I don't care about the loot in hisec. Was just testing it because i found it on my way. Didn't find anything in low and null today to test.
For the record, my hacking skill on SiSi is at Lv3, I'm using a T1 scanning ship with no hacking rigs and a T1 codebreaker/analyzer. I don't find highsec sites to be terribly difficult. I find lowsec sites to be challenging at times, and nullsec sites are either just fine or an absolute nightmare of Restoration nodes and Virus Suppressors.
Although, if I do encounter a Virus Suppressor in any hacking site, it's generally game-over for me on that attempt as I won't have the coherency left to hack the System Core or get past a firewall. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 22:57:00 -
[420] - Quote
Maybe it was just bad luck on that particular minigame with so many firewalls spawning. And couldn't test the other containers because i had to warp out (no tank and dps on my ship since i thought the rat spawns would be removed by now). A bit annoying that sites are so rare on Sisi. That's no way to test properly. |
|
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1484
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 23:25:00 -
[421] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Maybe it was just bad luck on that particular minigame with so many firewalls spawning. And couldn't test the other containers because i had to warp out (no tank and dps on my ship since i thought the rat spawns would be removed by now). A bit annoying that sites are so rare on Sisi. That's no way to test properly.
That is one issue that I have with the minigame. It has more to do with luck then strategy or skills. Mainly since everything is random from where the core is, to how many firewalls you run into, and what cache you find. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 00:18:00 -
[422] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:That is one issue that I have with the minigame. It has more to do with luck then strategy or skills. Mainly since everything is random from where the core is, to how many firewalls you run into, and what cache you find.
When i tested the minigame a few days ago i thought they had hit the sweet spot already with the difficulty (talking about nullsec). Lost about 1 container per site. That's not too depressing. After a long search i finaly found a relic site in null just now and i lost 3 containers. The minigame is now too hard and completely based on random chance again. The containers that i managed to hack only was because i reached the core quickly by pure luck. The antivirus and firewalls spawn everywhere now.
A few days ago it appeared that tools can be found mostly on the outskirts and firewalls/antivirus on the inner nodes. That added a nice element of strategy to the game. I knew if i had opened two antivirus i can still safe the container by finding a way on the outskirts and collect enough tools to beat the antivirus and hack the core eventualy.
Maybe that wasn't how it actualy worked but pure luck again. After all the sample size for my tests isn't very big with so few sites spawning on Sisi. But even if not then please CCp look into this as a possibilty to actualy make a game out of the minigame that isn't completely based on randomness. |
Veyer Erastus
Red-dormice
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 00:36:00 -
[423] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Maybe it was just bad luck on that particular minigame with so many firewalls spawning. And couldn't test the other containers because i had to warp out (no tank and dps on my ship since i thought the rat spawns would be removed by now). A bit annoying that sites are so rare on Sisi. That's no way to test properly.
Try Derelic low. Was testing there today. Plenty of sites. |
Allana Mora
Daktaklakpak.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 04:15:00 -
[424] - Quote
Why isnt CCP removing sleepers from the sites in WH's? Buff the other sites but leave WH space alone. Great job CCP. As usual. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
154
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 05:12:00 -
[425] - Quote
Teddyboom wrote:I manage to get like 6 can at each spew and have always free time between 2 can.
Not the easiest thing to do but i manage to get like 5~~6 scan easy with cargo scanner.
with such tactic i could manage to ignore cheap loot and looking for the rare material and get them first.
That's... pretty much... exactly what they want to prevent! Now you know. |
Itis Zhellin
28
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 05:29:00 -
[426] - Quote
I wonder if the CSM guys really saw this comming and they thought that these changes will be highly appreciated by the explorers. I tend to put the blame on csm rather than on CCP. The minigame is meh and the new looting mechanics is just a clickfest nightmare. I feel a huge relief when I return to TQ and do exploration, I already miss it. |
Naomi Hale
Children of New Eden
89
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 05:36:00 -
[427] - Quote
Energetic Monk wrote:Naomi Hale wrote:I've tried a few 'Relic' sites now, spread over high, low and null sec. They've all been salvage and junk. Are there any that contain ancient relics or something, maybe Talocan, Yan Jung and Takmahl. Stuff that, even if its worthless on the market, is mixed in with the salvage, just something to make it feel more like a forgotten relic rather than an ancient, abandon garbage scow? To get your hands on any of the ancient relics aka Sleepers, Talocan, Yan Yung and Takmahl, you have to go to regional COSMOS constellation for each empire race. I'm not asking for those kinds of artifacts, that's COSMOS it has it's place and those artifacts can be worth a lot of money.
I'm thinking more of themed junk, instead of cardon, data sheets and small arms we could find 'Ancient family photo', 'Antiquated child's toy', 'Bygone foodstuffs' or 'Moth-eaten Book' stuff that make it sound like a long forgotten relic.
I choose to believe what I was PROGRAMMED to believe! |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
154
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 06:12:00 -
[428] - Quote
I've been saying for a while now that Exploration, when applied as a label for what we do, is a bit of a misnomer. We're not so much explorers as we are Treasure Hunters. When you look at it through that type of lens, things seem more reasonable.
True ExplorationGäó will be most likely to come with the addition of that new space we need to "build the right type of stargate" to access. |
Absolon Echerie
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 06:49:00 -
[429] - Quote
Aminam Proweco wrote:All players here agree that spewing pinata is awful. Get rid of it. As for team play here are some ideas (some are mentioned before): Add layers for better loot Add timer and allow people to hack together to promote team play
Think players would like timer more than chasing the cans!
the adding layers for loot sound good, and you could combine this with hacking together (you need to hack 2 certain points to open up a new section/layer)
only problem will be programming this.. i doubt this will be possible at all without a major overhaul, certainly with just over a week till Odyssey release. |
Anela Cistine
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
171
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 07:01:00 -
[430] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Let's say it honestly: No one will do those sites after Odyssey hits (maybe few times to get frustrated and state it's not worth it and not fun)
No one, really? No one at all? If it is profitable someone will do it. For goodness sake, some people MINE asteroids, this is a million times more fun than that.
Personally I've never been a fan of shooting rats, so I was pretty disappointed when I first tried exploration and found it was was pretty much just ratting with weird loot. With the new system I only have to deal with rats if I mess up a hack. For me the new system is much more engaging. Some people will use the new system, but maybe not exactly the same people who enjoyed using the old system.
The spew mechanic is odd. I hope that it is hard to bot. It would be nice to have an activity run mostly by players playing who are attention, not by botters and AFKers.
|
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
154
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 07:33:00 -
[431] - Quote
I, for one, will be doing the new sites. Maybe now I'll get something from them too, since nobody else will ever do them again.
I do admit, it's a little irksome that the covops ships so well-suited to doing this activity in low/null lack the capacity to defend themselves against the rats that are coming up on hack failure. I rather enjoy scouting around null and sov null in my T1 Probe, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work like that on TQ. |
Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 07:47:00 -
[432] - Quote
Done some more exploration this time, this time mostly low sec. I've upgraded my skills so I can use T2 hackers and thus have a STR of 30 and COH of 125, but the low sec sites turned out to be quite hard, mainly due to the prevalence of Virus Suppressors. I once had three of them in site in a 0.3 system, and tons of 70 firewalls. I actually managed to hack a can where I got two Suppressors due to having luck in finding the core, but the loot that was spawned was crap worth around a million ISK. However this might be due to this behaviour:
I also noticed that I suddenly had to double-click the spewed cans - was that always the case? If that is intended I'm going to stop exploring. Hitting these cans once is hard enough, clicking them twice failed far too often.
There also was a site where I couldn't approach the cans at all due to a huge collision box around them from an Amarr station. Bug reported. |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 07:51:00 -
[433] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I do admit, it's a little irksome that the covops ships so well-suited to doing this activity in low/null lack the capacity to defend themselves against the rats that are coming up on hack failure.
It has been stated that the npcs will be removed and that the penalty for failure is going to be more cans ejecting from the spew container. What I find most annoying is that we don't seem to be getting any hacking/analyzing bonus on the t2 or t3 hulls. The extra 10 strength on the t1 frigates makes a significant difference on some of these puzzles showing up in null. I would much prefer to go out in a cloaky/nullified t3 compared to a t1 scanning frigate but that may not be the best way to go about it.
|
Jalequin
StarHunt Intrepid Crossing
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 08:02:00 -
[434] - Quote
- How do you like the look and feel of the new sites? We put in new containers and moved things around.
Seems easier to fly around, I haven't encountered bumping and 'getting stuck' issues. With 3 ships we manage to pick up all the cans the drop.
- How do you like the hacking challenge? What were the results? (what was your strength and coherency, did you win the challenges etc)
In null-sec, they are too ridiculous/absurdly difficult. With the archaeology and hacking skill at 4 I can never win any game in where I find a suppressor. The suppressors are overpowered and guaranteed to make you lose since the damage drop means you need to hammer it for very l;little damage and most of your hp;;; even worse some null cans have more than one suppressor. The null-sec sites are completely luck based because of this,,, too many firewalls/viruses/suppressors(insta-lose). On average w manage to get win 2 of the cans out of 6 on grid per site.
- How do you like the new looting mechanic?
Suggestion:
I propose that we always know where the core is located. This mini-game is just random clicks and hope that you don't click the wrong way into suppressors. If we know from the start where the core is then we can work to get to it while strategically avoiding the bad clicks.
Get rid of the random clicking! April 11th Mass Test *Video*: http://j.mp/Z1BEIU
May 16th Mass Test *Video*: http://j.mp/10Db6ry |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
154
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 08:03:00 -
[435] - Quote
The lack of virus bonuses on the Covops hulls may have to do with the fact that they're already pretty heavily bonused toward probes and meant as a general reconnaissance craft rather than a treasure hunting ship. T1 frigates, by comparison, only have one probe bonus and no covops cloak.
Either way, I anticipate that any changes to T2 frigates that may or may not be planned will come when Fozzie gets around to starting the T2 rebalance. T3s I anticipate not getting a virus strength bonus due to the fact that they have guns and CCP wants to discourage all-in-one ships that can hack/analyze and still capably run combat sites. |
|
CCP Bayesian
794
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 08:58:00 -
[436] - Quote
Jalequin wrote:I propose that we always know where the core is located. This mini-game is just random clicks and hope that you don't click the wrong way into suppressors. If we know from the start where the core is then we can work to get to it while strategically avoiding the bad clicks.
We should find some way of negating the random clicking.
Agreed there, just to reiterate something I posted a few pages back our intention is to keep working on improving hacking both as an experience in it's own right and where you can do it in EVE. One of the main problems is that the limited amount of Utilities and your inability to equip any up front means you are eternally at the mercy of the contents of the system you are hacking. Our original plan was to let you equip Utilities prior to a hacking attempt and have them retrievable and tradable but that got pushed back to a later iteration in favor of having a stable minimum implementation we can build on. This is the first thing we'll be implementing once Odyssey is out on TQ.
Second to the above is increasing the scope of Utilities that are available to include those that give hackers the ability to glean some information but not perfect information about what the makeup of the system is. Plus adding in some more interesting Defense Subsystems so that we can do things like altering the contents of systems depending on their theme so you will have some idea in advance what kind of Defense you might come up against.
Third would be providing larger areas for more complex systems and more variety, not necessarily for hacking in sites but to better support hacking elsewhere. The game system itself is completely independent of the object you are hacking so could literally be applied to anything in EVE if a team as interested in implementing it there.
P.S. Whoever coined the term Treasure Hunting to describe the Exploration content is a genius because that is an exact description of what the content actually is. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 09:04:00 -
[437] - Quote
Are you planning to give hacking-strenght-boni (etc.) to other ships than the t1 frigates? I think I read a dev post some pages back where you said you are thinking about new ships for hacking/archaeology, for the progression. When do you plan to deliver us these new ships? In the next expansion? How is your roadmap right now? (yes, i am curious ) |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1064
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 09:11:00 -
[438] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote: P.S. Whoever coined the term Treasure Hunting to describe the Exploration content is a genius because that is an exact description of what the content actually is.
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:"Exploration" in EVE is actually a misnomer at the moment. The more apparopriate term for what we do is "Treasure Hunting".
Do I foresee an official name change for this type of content? Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
|
CCP Bayesian
795
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 09:13:00 -
[439] - Quote
Saheed Cha'chris'ra wrote:Are you planning to give hacking-strenght-boni (etc.) to other ships than the t1 frigates? I think I read a dev post some pages back where you said you are thinking about new ships for hacking/archaeology, for the progression. When do you plan to deliver us these new ships? In the next expansion? How is your roadmap right now? (yes, i am curious )
I can't speak to the ships as they were handled by Team Superfriends but I'll point them in this direction.
Our roadmap is lovely and sends it's regards. ;)
Seriously though I think there is at least another release or twos worth of work we can put into hacking to make it something vibrant and useful as a skill outside of just our Exploration content. As well as the other things we end up doing that you guys aren't aware about right now. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 09:24:00 -
[440] - Quote
I wonder if I am delusional with my believe that the difficulty of null sec puzzles have been dramatically increased in the last build. Is this the case or is this just due to randomness? |
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1064
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 09:24:00 -
[441] - Quote
I seem to be having big problems with collisions in data sites. I am 5k away from the site and when the can spew occurs I cannot move toward the cans as I keep colliding with the hacking object. Do you know what would be causing this as it didn't start until the cans were separated from one another. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
918
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 09:45:00 -
[442] - Quote
Unless it has been changed recently the hacking game seems way way way to easy
I went through it time and time again just with clicking everything i saw, generally in 5-10 seconds. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
|
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1064
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 09:48:00 -
[443] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Unless it has been changed recently the hacking game seems way way way to easy
I went through it time and time again just with clicking everything i saw, generally in 5-10 seconds. It has changed a lot from that version. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 09:49:00 -
[444] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Unless it has been changed recently the hacking game seems way way way to easy
I went through it time and time again just with clicking everything i saw, generally in 5-10 seconds.
In high-sec? The hacking game is more difficult in low- and nullsec. And yes, they changed it lately. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1487
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 10:28:00 -
[445] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I do admit, it's a little irksome that the covops ships so well-suited to doing this activity in low/null lack the capacity to defend themselves against the rats that are coming up on hack failure. I rather enjoy scouting around null and sov null in my T1 Probe, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work like that on TQ.
I really think this should be intended. Without the rats or any defense system it does set the bar to low for the risk/reward aspect of low/null exploration. However I think that Cov-Ops should be boosted a bit to be able to handle high-sec and some easy lowsec rats.
T1 Frig=Highsec explo Cov-Ops=Highsec, 0.3-0.4 lowsec explo (Should be a T2 Cruiser Explo ship)=Lowsec, high true sec 0.0, C1/C2 WH. T3 Cruiser=Null, and WH
Pretty much Explo ships should be balanced, to where they can somewhat handle rats in the above systems.
With the current system, the risk of flying a T3 Explo Cruiser into a null site isn't worth it in comparison to a T1 or T2 CovOps. Which skews the whole Risk vs Reward. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
|
CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2524
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 10:41:00 -
[446] - Quote
I'm finding it a bit too easy atm across all tiers! The one I had the most difficulty with was tier 3 actually. |
|
Beaver Retriever
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
99
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 11:18:00 -
[447] - Quote
I'm re-tar-ded. Where am I supposed to go on SiSi to find any of this? All the nearby systems to 6-CZ are completely devoid of any signatures. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
154
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 11:18:00 -
[448] - Quote
If you make it too hard, Hacking/Archaeology 5 will be a requirement in order to even bother. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1487
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 11:20:00 -
[449] - Quote
Beaver Retriever wrote:I'm re-tar-ded. Where am I supposed to go on SiSi to find any of this? All the nearby systems to 6-CZ are completely devoid of any signatures.
Try moving away from the moveme area. They are around just due to low population the respawn rates are lowered. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
2722
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 11:45:00 -
[450] - Quote
Can we please have some sort of CCP acknowledgement of the overwhelmingly negative feedback the loot spew mechanic is getting? This is something a lot of people clearly feel strongly and negatively impacts their enjoyment of the profession.
We've been urging you to consider an alternative option for almost the entirety of this thread. Mane 614
|
|
M'aak'han
C-7
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 12:24:00 -
[451] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:I'm finding it a bit too easy atm across all tiers! The one I had the most difficulty with was tier 3 actually.
What do you refers as tiers? Hi/low/null sites, or is it the type of container (rubble/debris/remains...) ?
|
Killua Zoldyeck
Jump Zero
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 12:30:00 -
[452] - Quote
Blue Binary wrote:Anabella Rella wrote:Blue Binary wrote:Killua Zoldyeck wrote:I'm not sure how can you take down a Cruiser with an unarmed Covert Ops? Care to share your fit/ship?
With a Buzzard I can't fit a Light Missile Luncher but even If I could do that, I'm not very convinced that 12 dps will kill the cruiser before it kills me with no tank.
Let's say I train for the Helios that has the single drone. That will be 29 dps (can't fit a gun or I wouldn't be able to fit a Probe Launcher and Covert Ops Cloak, so that's the best it can do).
In my eyes a single cruiser means I have to leave the site forever (I'm talking about low sec roaming so it's not really an option to switch to a combat ship. Also, switching to a combat ship it's not what an explorer should do in the expansion that promises to remove NPCs because "exploration is not about shooting at red crosses").
Definitely doable in a Helios with a Hobgoblin II, Helios has a bonus for a thermal drone, also rat was a Serpentis. Takes about 15 minutes to kill it. Cap stable with MWD on, orbit rat at 20km, need a drone damage amp II, sit back and wait. Downside is both your MWD and drone MWD sig will make you easy to scan down. I recorded the session if you would like me to upload it. Not really exciting though. [:Ugh] You're not really suggesting that as a viable tactic I hope? Sitting around for 15 minutes watching damage notifications while that solo drone slowly chews through a cruiser sounds like all kinds of fun. Better hope there are no elite cruisers in those sites. Seriously, trying to take down anything other than a drone with a cov ops' anemic DPS would be a painful experience. Yes, it is boring waiting for the cruiser to die. Not the most efficient tactic, but it is doable if you don't want to give the site up. Just me being stubborn I guess. NPC's are being removed from k-space relic/hack sites, so it's a moot point.
Indeed, with no NPC spawns this problem has been solved. But thanks anyway for the tips :)
|
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 12:46:00 -
[453] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:I'm finding it a bit too easy atm across all tiers! The one I had the most difficulty with was tier 3 actually.
How can literaly unsolvable minigames (which seems to happen now in about 50% of cases) be too easy? Or are you talking about something else? It's not really clear from your post. |
|
CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2524
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 14:20:00 -
[454] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:I'm finding it a bit too easy atm across all tiers! The one I had the most difficulty with was tier 3 actually. How can literaly unsolvable minigames (which seems to happen now in about 50% of cases) be too easy? Or are you talking about something else? It's not really clear from your post.
My failure rate across all tiers is less than 30%, with the highest being tier 3. |
|
Lady Manus
Lumen et Umbra
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 14:39:00 -
[455] - Quote
CCP why u don't try this:
Successfull hacking: one 1- max 2 containers PER PERSON IN FLEET ON GRID slowly moving outwards, reasonable time to grab then and good loot table
Unsuccessull hack: 4-5 containers overall fast moving with only one containing good loot
IN this way bringing more ppl is ok and less clinging furiosuly
My 2 cents, LM
|
sebnaje
Bionesis Technologies Electus Matari
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 15:05:00 -
[456] - Quote
1. Like it but didn't hack enough sites to appreciate loot table 2. Like the mini game but it-¦s too much dependant of skills and hazard 3. Loot mechanic ...I don't like it at all. Very frustrating to be punished even if you succed the game at first attempt... |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
191
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 15:20:00 -
[457] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Jalequin wrote:I propose that we always know where the core is located. This mini-game is just random clicks and hope that you don't click the wrong way into suppressors. If we know from the start where the core is then we can work to get to it while strategically avoiding the bad clicks.
We should find some way of negating the random clicking. Agreed there, just to reiterate something I posted a few pages back our intention is to keep working on improving hacking both as an experience in it's own right and where you can do it in EVE. One of the main problems is that the limited amount of Utilities and your inability to equip any up front means you are eternally at the mercy of the contents of the system you are hacking. Our original plan was to let you equip Utilities prior to a hacking attempt and have them retrievable and tradable but that got pushed back to a later iteration in favor of having a stable minimum implementation we can build on. This is the first thing we'll be implementing once Odyssey is out on TQ. Second to the above is increasing the scope of Utilities that are available to include those that give hackers the ability to glean some information but not perfect information about what the makeup of the system is. Plus adding in some more interesting Defense Subsystems so that we can do things like altering the contents of systems depending on their theme so you will have some idea in advance what kind of Defense you might come up against. Third would be providing larger areas for more complex systems and more variety, not necessarily for hacking in sites but to better support hacking elsewhere. The game system itself is completely independent of the object you are hacking so could literally be applied to anything in EVE if a team as interested in implementing it there. P.S. Whoever coined the term Treasure Hunting to describe the Exploration content is a genius because that is an exact description of what the content actually is.
Please do work on it. Don't fall back into old CCP habits and throw in a half-finished system and then leave it there for years. I'll give you credit for doing it better the last few cycles, so keep on that. Only leave the system behind when it is in a truly good state.
|
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
65
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 15:31:00 -
[458] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Johan Toralen wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:I'm finding it a bit too easy atm across all tiers! The one I had the most difficulty with was tier 3 actually. How can literaly unsolvable minigames (which seems to happen now in about 50% of cases) be too easy? Or are you talking about something else? It's not really clear from your post. My failure rate across all tiers is less than 30%, with the highest being tier 3.
If the answer to the game being "too easy" is to make it so hard that it's literaly impossible to solve in certain percentage of cases that's a bad approach imo. Say we are supposed to lose 50% of containers, then 50% of cans. Even if we win by what you devs consider adequate it always feels like losing and leaves a sour taste in the mouth. That's a pretty big design flaw in my opinion.
I'm aware it's a tough challenge to balance the sites to make them hard but still feel fair and like accomplishing something. The answer to that can only be to make the minigame less random and more strategic. Must be possible to still hack a tough minigame by using the wits. The trade off is that you spent more time in the site as a sitting duck while figuring it out instead of just quickly clicking through the minigame because all the nodes are completely random anyway and doing it quickly makes no difference anyway.
Not sure what else can be done to make the sites more challenging without adding rats. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground between the sites being no challenge/easy farmable and unfairly hard/frustrating right now.
That said i don't think the sites really have to be super hard/challenging as a design goal. It's just one way to do PvE for income. Mining is easy, mission running is easy, 4/10 in hisec is easy, plexing+mission running in FW is easy. So why does the exploration mechanic have to be different. It's a challenge in itself to do it in hostile space without getting popped and get the loot back safely. The risk/reward could be balanced by giving players incentives to do the low and null sites in more expensive ships via bonuses. And perhaps some deadspace analyzers, being able to fit two t2 rigs on certain ships etc. Have players spent more isk beforehand to gain an edge on the sites. |
Nose Todos
The Silent Few
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 15:57:00 -
[459] - Quote
maybe I am too stupid but those 'Decayed 'pirate faction' Mass Graves' are IMPOSSIBLE to get to the containers. I am always bouncing off at 8km and there is no way I can get closer. should there be a trick please let me know otherwise please fix! :D |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 16:22:00 -
[460] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Johan Toralen wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:I'm finding it a bit too easy atm across all tiers! The one I had the most difficulty with was tier 3 actually. How can literaly unsolvable minigames (which seems to happen now in about 50% of cases) be too easy? Or are you talking about something else? It's not really clear from your post. My failure rate across all tiers is less than 30%, with the highest being tier 3. *wall of text*
I agree! Soundwave, as far as I know there are no combat sites which just CAN'T be done even if you are fighting them with a hundred people in carriers. But designing a minigame which CAN NOT be solved every THIRD time you play it, is like programming FRUSTRATION on purpose. You don't design a 3% Chance of having your Capital Ship destroyed when you activate your jump drives, do you?
Johan Toralen is totally right, make the game hard, make it strategic, but make it solvable! Compare it with a SUDOKU-Game. There are a lot of them, easy, medium, and hard ones. But here should be no Sudoku-Game which can't be solved. That would be really bad design.
I understand that you need some kind of randomness, so people won't have a guide for every minigame-possibility. But failing on purpose even with maxed out skills and the best ship is bad. I hope you will do better CCP! |
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CCP Bayesian
795
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 16:26:00 -
[461] - Quote
You guys seem confused. Even if a game is completable it doesn't mean Soundwave will always complete it so there will be a base failure rate. Looking at things statistically there will be an average rate of failure, otherwise by definition everyone will have succeeded. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 16:29:00 -
[462] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:You guys seem confused. Even if a game is completable it doesn't mean Soundwave will always complete it so there will be a base failure rate. Looking at things statistically there will be an average rate of failure, otherwise by definition everyone will have succeeded.
What I want to know is: Are there possible minigame-scenarios because of the randomness which simply can not be solved with max skills and the best available ship and fitting? Like an labyrinth, where you want to get to the middle, but there is NO way to get there? If no, we have misunderstood Soundwave. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1863
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 16:44:00 -
[463] - Quote
Just posting to say (again) that hacking should be the group effort focused on and rewarded by and not the garbage collecting. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
175
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 16:51:00 -
[464] - Quote
O.K. tried it again. I'm getting about a 50% failure rate on the mini game in low sec now, I will try more latter tonight. All lvl 4 skills and a covert ops ship so no bonuses or rigs of the t1 ship (I'm trying to simulate how I actually do exploration). I think the most frustrating thing is the 50% I fail, there seems to be no way I could have won even mathematically. It just feels like I'm at war with some random number generator.
Add to this the fact that once I do "win" the min game rather than watching the loot blow up, I get to deal with he frustration of loot pinata (still bumping to structures!), so winning is just slightly less frustrating than loosing.
Also even though I've only played it a handful of times the min game is already getting old. Also a rat spawned I thought they had been removed but not in this build perhaps? |
damAErt
Army Of US Rainbow Dash Friends
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 17:03:00 -
[465] - Quote
Hello there and dear CCP guys,
About the container spewing: I-¦ve read through most of this thread and i it seems like the feedback on this topic is 98% negative and 2% neutral. I think it can be sumed up as following:
The container spewing feels like a punishment.
So please dear devs, make it a punishment. Right now, every explorer gets punished twice for his affords, once by spending time on the minigame and twice by the spew. Not that the minigame is that bad and im really looking forward for it to be improved, but either the minigame or the spew would be enough for an explorer to handle. Please remember that exploration is a profession, players like to do it more than once or twice.
On a successful hack, the container should open as it used to do. This would give you devs the freedom to make the minigame harder/more complex, as there is the ultimate goal for the player to avoid the container spewing. On a failed attempt, the container gets locked for 1-2 minutes before i can try another hacking, or i brute force it (see below).
I really appreciate your attempts on making exploration coop-able, but degrading my buddies to loot-clickers seems not the right way. I would really love to have a "brute force button" on the interface that cracks the container, no matter what and than the loot gets spewed into space an NPCs are alerted by our forceful attempt. My buddies and me than try to catch the goodies while killing the off the rats. To me this sounds like a rewarding possibility to satisfy both soloers and coop-players, by giving us decision to make and thats what the sandbox is all about! |
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CCP Bayesian
797
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 17:04:00 -
[466] - Quote
Manssell wrote:O.K. tried it again. I'm getting about a 50% failure rate on the mini game in low sec now, I will try more latter tonight. All lvl 4 skills and a covert ops ship so no bonuses or rigs of the t1 ship (I'm trying to simulate how I actually do exploration). I think the most frustrating thing is the 50% I fail, there seems to be no way I could have won even mathematically. It just feels like I'm at war with some random number generator.
Add to this the fact that once I do "win" the min game rather than watching the loot blow up, I get to deal with he frustration of loot pinata (still bumping to structures!), so winning is just slightly less frustrating than loosing.
Also even though I've only played it a handful of times the mini game is already getting old. Also a rat spawned I thought they had been removed but not in this build perhaps?
Manssell, what are the starting stats of your module? EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 17:12:00 -
[467] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:You guys seem confused. Even if a game is completable it doesn't mean Soundwave will always complete it so there will be a base failure rate. Looking at things statistically there will be an average rate of failure, otherwise by definition everyone will have succeeded.
I'm not confused. The game right now is completely random. Click on the wrong nodes (which you can't avoid as its random) and you're screwed. You can't rebound when you've opened a bunch of antiviruses and the only way to continue with the game in hope to find some tools to destroy the antivirus is blocked by a firewall. This is now a standard scenario as these things spawn in large numbers and on every possible node.
So to make this less random and to be able to consider it an actual game there need to be a ruleset on which kind of nodes antivirus, firewalls, tools and the core can be expected. For instance firewalls could be expected on the connecting node between two "blobs" of nodes, antivirus on surrounded nodes, tools on inward and outward pointing corner nodes, the core somewhere on the far side from the starting point, perhaps on a surrounded node aswell so you risk opening a antivirus. The element of strategy comes into play due to the randomly created play grid. You have to take a good look at it, plan your way to collect tools, avoid sourrounded nodes, find the way with the least probable number off firewalls to the other side of the grid.
With such ruleset there will still probably some scenarios where the minigame isn't technicaly solvable due to the randomly created grid and other factors like your skills and tools used but at least you can use your brain cells to improve your success rate statistic. Which then in turn gives the player a sense of success and accomplishment. |
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CCP Bayesian
798
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 17:19:00 -
[468] - Quote
Johan Toralen, these sorts of rules exist. None of the network topology generation, the layout or the percentage chance of finding different types of node is completely random.
The problem at the moment is that hackers start each attempt from scratch, you can't bring Utilities in with you and there are no utility elements that give you a peak at what might be where on the board. This limits the strategies that can be developed quite severely.
We've got plenty of statistics logging in place and we intend to bring out the next iteration reasonably quickly. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 17:22:00 -
[469] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Johan Toralen, these sorts of rules exist. None of the network topology generation, the layout or the percentage chance of finding different types of node is completely random.
Then better double check your code. It felt so last week, which was good. But yesterday the firewalls and antivirus were completely all over the place on the sites that i ran. |
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
175
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 17:24:00 -
[470] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Manssell wrote:O.K. tried it again. I'm getting about a 50% failure rate on the mini game in low sec now, I will try more latter tonight. All lvl 4 skills and a covert ops ship so no bonuses or rigs of the t1 ship (I'm trying to simulate how I actually do exploration). I think the most frustrating thing is the 50% I fail, there seems to be no way I could have won even mathematically. It just feels like I'm at war with some random number generator.
Add to this the fact that once I do "win" the min game rather than watching the loot blow up, I get to deal with he frustration of loot pinata (still bumping to structures!), so winning is just slightly less frustrating than loosing.
Also even though I've only played it a handful of times the mini game is already getting old. Also a rat spawned I thought they had been removed but not in this build perhaps? Manssell, what are the starting stats of your module?
Lets see, Virus coherence 80, virus strength 20 access difficulty bonus 15. This was with the relic analyzer (which is what I used for my testing this morning). My Data analyzer is VC 90, VS 20, AD bonus 20. And now after looking into this it seems that my Archeology skill is at a 3 not 4.
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1212
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 19:18:00 -
[471] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/OQqZnSM.png
Two things. Does Access Difficulty mean anything anymore? It's still on Analyzer modules as well.
-and-
Is the "10" at the bottom supposed to be a bonus to coherence?
e: Bug reported it.
Another minor point that may have been mentioned already; apologies if so, I'm way behind on the thread. But, debris/remains/etc gives no indication that it's been successfully completed, as opposed to something like wrecks which show if they've been opened and/or looted. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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CCP Bayesian
798
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 19:45:00 -
[472] - Quote
mynnna wrote:http://i.imgur.com/OQqZnSM.png Two things. Does Access Difficulty mean anything anymore? It's still on Analyzer modules as well. -and- Is the "10" at the bottom supposed to be a bonus to coherence? e: Bug reported it. Another minor point that may have been mentioned already; apologies if so, I'm way behind on the thread. But, debris/remains/etc gives no indication that it's been successfully completed, as opposed to something like wrecks which show if they've been opened and/or looted.
The 10 is a bonus to Coherence, looks like the text hasn't been updated for some reason. Access Difficulty means nothing anymore the harder tiers in sites are gated by the module stats. I'll poke Superfriends tomorrow as they are the guys dealing with this.
The state display is important, the Data Sites actually have visible animation that shows the state but we should put that somewhere obvious as well. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 22:51:00 -
[473] - Quote
Just did 3 low sec serpentis sites. The hacking difficulty was much easier then in the sites that i did yesterday. Only lost one container. The loot was underwhelming still. 2 decryptors from a data site, worth 11m. 7.5m and 10.5m from two relic sites.
As i used a cargo scanner beforehand i can tell you that there was quite a bit of a discrepancy between what is in the sites and what i managed to get eventualy. 2 decryptors of i think 6 or 7. There was a bpc and two skillbooks in the last relic site (Decayed Serpentis Quarry) of which i got none. With 8 containers and the loot spew the chance to get the bpc is what like 30%? That just doesn't cut it. In the old site when there spawned a bpc in one of the cans you got it. End of story.
But as i wrote in one of my earlier posts i don't even know how this can be balanced. If you put 3 bpc's in to give me as solo a reasonable chance to get one then a group of explorers can easily exploit the system and farm goodies en masse since for them it's not based on luck to get one but a certainty to get all. (or almost all, they can still lose a container to the hacking) |
Freyya
Omni Galactic Resource Excavation Inc. Tri-Star Galactic Industries
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 22:59:00 -
[474] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:mynnna wrote:http://i.imgur.com/OQqZnSM.png Two things. Does Access Difficulty mean anything anymore? It's still on Analyzer modules as well. -and- Is the "10" at the bottom supposed to be a bonus to coherence? e: Bug reported it. Another minor point that may have been mentioned already; apologies if so, I'm way behind on the thread. But, debris/remains/etc gives no indication that it's been successfully completed, as opposed to something like wrecks which show if they've been opened and/or looted. The 10 is a bonus to Coherence, looks like the text hasn't been updated for some reason. Access Difficulty means nothing anymore the harder tiers in sites are gated by the module stats. I'll poke Superfriends tomorrow as they are the guys dealing with this. The state display is important, the Data Sites actually have visible animation that shows the state but we should put that somewhere obvious as well.
Please point them towards my bug report for rigs not providing bonus propperly on SiSi, this afternoon: ID 159433 Aparantly it does not happen all the time but i have yet to see differently.
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Maddan69
Sickology
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 01:16:00 -
[475] - Quote
Can we get a response from a Dev if they are even considering changing the variable which causes the Loot Explosion?
Instead of having two tries at the hacking mini-game either: Failing the hack attempt you get the loot explosion. Succeeding in the hack attempt you loot the container like you would normally.
Twenty-four pages of basically everyone calling this loot explosion mechanic horrible is not a good sign and this is just the people "testing" the mechanic... I don't even want to see the outcry on the forums the following days after the patch hits the live server if this mechanic is introduced as it currently stands. |
Toddfish
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 01:34:00 -
[476] - Quote
Repost from the other thread...
Spent some time scanning and running data/relic sites in Null sec (typically -0.2 true sec). Scanning is quicker (the new mid-slot scanning mods are a nice addition). I did cargo scans on the cans prior to hacking attempts and the total loot seemed to be on-par with nice rolls on TQ now. Successful hacking (and collection of the right spew containers) lead to similar payouts as I currently get on TQ. The faction POS mod BPC was a nice touch too.
While IGÇÖm not a big fan of the loot spew, IGÇÖve started to adapt and get better at the process. The reduced number of cans is nice, but clicking on the hard to see icons is still a problem. That said, IGÇÖm still having issues with a few collideable objects (the black monolith in the Ruined Guristas Crystal Quarry stood-out to me). Trying to collect cans is hard enough, but not understanding why your ship is bouncing off an object (knowing the cans are soon to disappear) is rage educing.
Today the biggest change IGÇÖve notices is in the difficulty of the hacking mini-game. Running with lvl5 hacking/archeology skills in a Heron (+10 virus strength), T2 mods, T1 rigs for hacking/archeologyGǪ my virus strength is 135/40. Despite this, I was only ~50% successful at hacking attempts on the harder containers (Ruins, Remains, Mainframes, etc.). The other cans (Rubble, Com Towers, etc.) seemed like a decent difficulty, but maybe I was just getting lucky with the number of roadblocks I ran into.
Most of my failed attempts were at the result of running into one (or more) virus suppressor. Trying to progress with the reduced strength didnGÇÖt seem to work, but fighting them drained most of my coherence. Without finding a utility to boost coherence there was little chance to get through the various firewalls/anti-virus blocksGǪ let alone the core at the end. I wouldnGÇÖt have had as much of a problem, but many of the firewalls/anti-virus had coherence of 60-90 each and took a while to get through them.
I can understand trying to have a progression with difficulty (especially by the time you reach the hardest cans in Null sec), but I think the failure rate is too highGǪ especially for a fully-trained character using a specialized ship. Things should be a challenge, but with only having two attempts at hacking a container, there is a fairly high chance of complete failure. The failure also happens with the more difficult cans (which happen to contain the valuable loot), so greatly reducing the desirability and profitability of this profession.
Note: Every time I had a failed attempt a rat spawned. It was mentioned previously that this mechanism was going to changeGǪ is that still the plan?
Suggestions: + Implement the described mechanism for pre-loading various utilities to improve the chances during difficult hacking attempts. Until this is implemented, please consider decreasing the strength of the various supresors/firewalls/anti-virus. I feel a pilot with max skills, in a properly fitted ship, should fail one attempt from time-to-time, but rarely have a can explode. + Add additional mods to increase virus coherence/strength (similar to the new scanning mods). + Add additional ship bonuses to virus abilitiesGǪ it seems weird having to trade-out of a T2/T3 scanning/combat ship for a T1 frig to successfully hack a can. + Increase the number of failure attempts possible (maybe even remove the exploding cans) to encourage people to progress towards more difficult sites. If someone decides they want to spend an hour hacking a can (due to skills/fitting/difficulty, the possible loot, etc.) they should be able to.
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 04:49:00 -
[477] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Just did 3 low sec serpentis sites. The hacking difficulty was much easier then in the sites that i did yesterday. Only lost one container. The loot was underwhelming still. 2 decryptors from a data site, worth 11m. 7.5m and 10.5m from two relic sites.
As i used a cargo scanner beforehand i can tell you that there was quite a bit of a discrepancy between what is in the sites and what i managed to get eventualy. 2 decryptors of i think 6 or 7. There was a bpc and two skillbooks in the last relic site (Decayed Serpentis Quarry) of which i got none. With 8 containers and the loot spew the chance to get the bpc is what like 30%? That just doesn't cut it. In the old site when there spawned a bpc in one of the cans you got it. End of story.
But as i wrote in one of my earlier posts i don't even know how this can be balanced. If you put 3 bpc's in to give me as solo a reasonable chance to get one then a group of explorers can easily exploit the system and farm goodies en masse since for them it's not based on luck to get one but a certainty to get all. (or almost all, they can still lose a container to the hacking)
edit: thinking about it i actualy know how it can be balanced to be fair: by scaling the loot and the number of cans according to the number of players on grid. Which then defeats the whole purpose of why the loot spew was invented in the first place.
If it makes you feel any better, I just ran a hacking site on TQ. Of three cans, two were empty and the third contained a low-value BPC and a decryptor. The guardian rats at warp-in were still there and people don't just leave BPCs laying around, so I'm sure it's not a case of "someone else looted the other cans". |
Sheena Tzash
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 07:52:00 -
[478] - Quote
Tried the hacking mini game yesterday and I all I can say at the moment is that when the expansion comes out I simply won't bother with exploration anymore because its just not fun!
I tried with a Probe with hacking rigs, and reasonably high hacking skills (4s) and found the sites to be frustrating and boring.
1) Its a MASSIVE click-fest with no clear goal or objective that I can see other than 'click on all the pretty dots'
2) When a firewall comes up it seems to disable the other 'helpful' modules (like the spanner) so I can't click them.
3) The strength values on a firewall don't seem to relate to anything - I have around 70 points available and if I click a firewall with say a value of 10 I sometimes lose more or less than 10 points? So how can I decide which firewall to click if I don't know what the results will be?
4) If I just click on anything and everything and run out of clickable nodes and all I'm left with are firewall nodes (say 3 for example) but not enough points to do all 3, which node do I click? I can't see an 'end' node I need to reach so I don't know which node is best to click on. So its either take a random chance, run out of points and not be able to do the next one, fail.
I was fairly happy that the rats that spawn after a failure were only small and I could easily run away from them and use some drones to take them out.
The loot spillage affect to me is also very annoying simply because you put the work into getting this far to only get 10% of what your after - and most people won't be glad of the loot they got, they'll concern themselves with the stuff that they MISSED and so it'll seem like whenever you do exploration you'll LOSE something (or not gain 100%)
Even if you bring a friend the chances are that they'll be bored out of their minds waiting for you to scan down a site and then hack it just so that maybe they can click on some boxes that spew out and run away with the good stuff.
Personally I think the whole thing needs to be re-designed; at the end of the day you're taking an activity that before required ZERO skill (ie, click a can and wait for the module to finish) to now require some skill, understanding and a LOT of luck to finish.
You're also making an activity that before was done automatically within a decent time frame (less than 1 min) and 100% chance of success into something that can now take MUCH longer with no guarantee of success.
Basically this means you're EXCLUDING all the players who are bad at mini games.
1) HALVE the size of the mini game so that is short and quick (less than 30 seconds from start to finish) 2) If the hack is successful then the loot is left in ONE container for the hacker to access. 3) If the hack FAILS then you get the 'loot spawn' as before with SOME loot (but not the best). 4) If the user exits the mini game or the module ends then its NOT considered a failure 5) A failure only occurs when the hacker loses all points their in the mini game
At the end of the day the player has put in the time, effort and skills to FIND the site in the first place and therefore deserve SOMETHING for their time; especially if they've risked going into dangerous space to do it.
Giving loot upon failure means that the hacker now has a choice of action to take:
1) Spend more time (and risk of exposure) in completing the mini game for the best loot and 100% chance to full retrieval. Even if this means that they go so far in the mini game, find they can't complete it and cancel and try again. The additional time it takes to re-try is the risk they take. 2) Run the site quick and dirty to get SOME loot thrown out all over the place but not the best. |
Itis Zhellin
28
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 08:54:00 -
[479] - Quote
Seeing mynnna posting in this thread is an unexpected but very nice surprise, it gives me hope that CSM 8 will be more vigilant about the changes proposed by CCP in the future. |
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CCP Bayesian
800
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 09:41:00 -
[480] - Quote
Maddan69 wrote:Can we get a response from a Dev if they are even considering changing the variable which causes the Loot Explosion?
Instead of having two tries at the hacking mini-game either: Failing the hack attempt you get the loot explosion. Succeeding in the hack attempt you loot the container like you would normally.
Twenty-four pages of basically everyone calling this loot explosion mechanic horrible is not a good sign and this is just the people "testing" the mechanic... I don't even want to see the outcry on the forums the following days after the patch hits the live server if this mechanic is introduced as it currently stands.
We're talking about the scattering mechanic just now and are making a lot of changes to make it more usable. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Lady Manus
Lumen et Umbra
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 10:04:00 -
[481] - Quote
We're talking about the scattering mechanic just now and are making a lot of changes to make it more usable.[/quote]
And pls don't forget that most explorers like to be solo players.... do you know a guy called Indiana Jones?
LM |
Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 11:27:00 -
[482] - Quote
Listen to the feedback!
The loot scattering as a reward does not work on multiple levels: not rewarding, not enjoyable, too twitchy,...
If it feels like a punishment, make it a punishment.
It has been mentioned before by a number of posters: scatter the loot when you fail the minigame. It makes a lot more sense. I understand that you guys heve worked hard on this and you don't want to throw all that work out of the window. Please don't implement it as it is now. You will create a lot of unnecessary rage and frustration when it goes live. |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 13:09:00 -
[483] - Quote
Solkara Starlock wrote:Listen to the feedback!
The loot scattering as a reward does not work on multiple levels: not rewarding, not enjoyable, too twitchy,...
If it feels like a punishment, make it a punishment.
It has been mentioned before by a number of posters: scatter the loot when you fail the minigame. It makes a lot more sense. I understand that you guys heve worked hard on this and you don't want to throw all that work out of the window. Please don't implement it as it is now. You will create a lot of unnecessary rage and frustration when it goes live.
I agree. Listen, CCP. Pleeaaaasee. Don't screw this up! |
Jommis
CRICE Corporation Insidious Associates
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 13:14:00 -
[484] - Quote
Listen to Solkara.. And get ready for a **** storm on the forums when it goes live.. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
164
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 13:19:00 -
[485] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:The problem at the moment is that hackers start each attempt from scratch, you can't bring Utilities in with you and there are no utility elements that give you a peak at what might be where on the board. This limits the strategies that can be developed quite severely. I don't understand how you can acknowledge this is a problem and yet NOT fix it before implementing the system. It's just mind-boggling. You guys are setting yourselves up for a massive rage shiitestorm when you release it as is. I understand that you wanted a simple first iteration. But this is far too simple, it provides no entertainment and only causes frustration - which is generally a pretty bad idea for a game. Add into it the whole loot spew mechanic that you have unwisely committed yourselves too, and you are gonna have alot of angry players on your hands when it hits TQ. Probably shoulda considered testing this a bit more before release. Cuz let's face it, if it took you months to get to this point, you're not gonna be able to do much more in the week or so you have remaining. We're kinda stuck with this as is - and it's not good.
Solkara Starlock wrote:Listen to the feedback!
The loot scattering as a reward does not work on multiple levels: not rewarding, not enjoyable, too twitchy,...
If it feels like a punishment, make it a punishment.
It has been mentioned before by a number of posters: scatter the loot when you fail the minigame. It makes a lot more sense. I understand that you guys heve worked hard on this and you don't want to throw all that work out of the window. Please don't implement it as it is now. You will create a lot of unnecessary rage and frustration when it goes live. Pretty much this.
|
DooDoo Gum
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 13:36:00 -
[486] - Quote
Solkara Starlock wrote:Listen to the feedback!
The loot scattering as a reward does not work on multiple levels: not rewarding, not enjoyable, too twitchy,...
If it feels like a punishment, make it a punishment.
It has been mentioned before by a number of posters: scatter the loot when you fail the minigame. It makes a lot more sense. I understand that you guys heve worked hard on this and you don't want to throw all that work out of the window. Please don't implement it as it is now. You will create a lot of unnecessary rage and frustration when it goes live.
^^ this |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 14:12:00 -
[487] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote: let's face it, if it took you months to get to this point, you're not gonna be able to do much more in the week or so you have remaining. We're kinda stuck with this as is - and it's not good.
They should delay this feature (or the entire expansion), i dont care. I'd rather wait one or two more month for a good expansion then getting the crappy one next week. And if you release this bad-designed feature of exploration mechanics on TQ, fixing it would be not easy.
Don't release it. Fix it. We can wait! We will be patient! |
Kel hound
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 14:20:00 -
[488] - Quote
I've been messing around with anom's on sisi and I have 2 comments.
1) Please don't spam these sites with a ton of glowy, particle effects. I found one site in nulsec that was just a massive, unnavigable mess of bunkers with what I can only assume was half a dozen glowing orbs just stacked on top of one another in the center. My PC isn't a beast but it handles most anything, when looking at this unholy ball of level-designer rage (I can only assume that the person who designed it hates all life and wishes for me to suffer) my fps dropped to 2. Not 20, not 12, 2 (two). The low and high sec sites were better, but not by much. The dust clouds cause massive fps drops and while the clutter was not as bad as the nulsec anom I found (I wish I had taken a screenshot, it was just so bad.) it was still poor as far as level design in EVE goes. Could the loot containers be spaced out a bit more? doesn't have to be by much, 50m or so would do it, so long as their not stacked on top of one another.
2) more an observation rather than a complaint but why do we need two separate modules for what are essentially the exact same thing? Both archeology and hacking have the same interface, the same mechanics and the same challenges, so why do we need to have 2 separate skills and 2 separate modules for the same task? wouldn't it make more sense to roll the functionality of both into the one skill and/or module? |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
70
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 15:12:00 -
[489] - Quote
Kel hound wrote:2) more an observation rather than a complaint but why do we need two separate modules for what are essentially the exact same thing? Both archeology and hacking have the same interface, the same mechanics and the same challenges, so why do we need to have 2 separate skills and 2 separate modules for the same task? wouldn't it make more sense to roll the functionality of both into the one skill and/or module?
Good point. I think they should merge the analyzer into one. Nobody would complain. Frees up a slot also that could be useful for a new category of mods that boost virus strenght and coherence. For the two different rigs it could be made so that one boosts coherence and the other one strenght. |
Scuzzy Logic
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 17:46:00 -
[490] - Quote
Solkara Starlock wrote:Listen to the feedback!
The loot scattering as a reward does not work on multiple levels: not rewarding, not enjoyable, too twitchy,...
If it feels like a punishment, make it a punishment.
It has been mentioned before by a number of posters: scatter the loot when you fail the minigame. It makes a lot more sense. I understand that you guys heve worked hard on this and you don't want to throw all that work out of the window. Please don't implement it as it is now. You will create a lot of unnecessary rage and frustration when it goes live.
Pretty much this. Also, I tried to do hacking with a friend in C1-2 Wormholes (Him in a BC and me in an Echelon due to having only lvl 4 ahcking/Arch skills). Supressors are instalose. Theres nothing else to say. Also, with a slow BC and me not having any kind of AB/MWD we could only get 3 out of something like 7 cans and we were trying HARD. Not to mention we werent hitting DScan every 3 secodns like we would normally do in WHs.
Also, it has been mentionned, but I had to turn off almost all particle effects because my FPS dropped to abyssmal levels due to the bling.
Final complaint: Considering how hard it was to find non-supressor-laden sites AND getting to the cans, the loot was just awful.
If you release this feature as it is, you're going to wind up with so many exploration ship wrecks in protest that the Probes and Magnates will go extinct. |
|
Scuzzy Logic
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 17:48:00 -
[491] - Quote
Sheena Tzash wrote:Tried the hacking mini game yesterday and I all I can say at the moment is that when the expansion comes out I simply won't bother with exploration anymore because its just not fun!
I tried with a Probe with hacking rigs, and reasonably high hacking skills (4s) and found the sites to be frustrating and boring.
1) Its a MASSIVE click-fest with no clear goal or objective that I can see other than 'click on all the pretty dots'
2) When a firewall comes up it seems to disable the other 'helpful' modules (like the spanner) so I can't click them.
3) The strength values on a firewall don't seem to relate to anything - I have around 70 points available and if I click a firewall with say a value of 10 I sometimes lose more or less than 10 points? So how can I decide which firewall to click if I don't know what the results will be?
4) If I just click on anything and everything and run out of clickable nodes and all I'm left with are firewall nodes (say 3 for example) but not enough points to do all 3, which node do I click? I can't see an 'end' node I need to reach so I don't know which node is best to click on. So its either take a random chance, run out of points and not be able to do the next one, fail.
I was fairly happy that the rats that spawn after a failure were only small and I could easily run away from them and use some drones to take them out.
The loot spillage affect to me is also very annoying simply because you put the work into getting this far to only get 10% of what your after - and most people won't be glad of the loot they got, they'll concern themselves with the stuff that they MISSED and so it'll seem like whenever you do exploration you'll LOSE something (or not gain 100%)
Even if you bring a friend the chances are that they'll be bored out of their minds waiting for you to scan down a site and then hack it just so that maybe they can click on some boxes that spew out and run away with the good stuff.
Personally I think the whole thing needs to be re-designed; at the end of the day you're taking an activity that before required ZERO skill (ie, click a can and wait for the module to finish) to now require some skill, understanding and a LOT of luck to finish.
You're also making an activity that before was done automatically within a decent time frame (less than 1 min) and 100% chance of success into something that can now take MUCH longer with no guarantee of success.
Basically this means you're EXCLUDING all the players who are bad at mini games.
1) HALVE the size of the mini game so that is short and quick (less than 30 seconds from start to finish) 2) If the hack is successful then the loot is left in ONE container for the hacker to access. 3) If the hack FAILS then you get the 'loot spawn' as before with SOME loot (but not the best). 4) If the user exits the mini game or the module ends then its NOT considered a failure 5) A failure only occurs when the hacker loses all points their in the mini game
At the end of the day the player has put in the time, effort and skills to FIND the site in the first place and therefore deserve SOMETHING for their time; especially if they've risked going into dangerous space to do it.
Giving loot upon failure means that the hacker now has a choice of action to take:
1) Spend more time (and risk of exposure) in completing the mini game for the best loot and 100% chance to full retrieval. Even if this means that they go so far in the mini game, find they can't complete it and cancel and try again. The additional time it takes to re-try is the risk they take. 2) Run the site quick and dirty to get SOME loot thrown out all over the place but not the best.
I could iterate on this but it sums up my general feelings. |
Gladi
Liga Freier Terraner Northern Coalition.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 18:31:00 -
[492] - Quote
Are the new sites still tied to the Industry index for nullsec? Any plan on moving them away from it and give us any other means of "generating" them like hidden belts? Its a pita to keep the Industry index up just to have the exploration sites... a explorer should not be a miner! |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
164
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 18:46:00 -
[493] - Quote
Gladi wrote:Are the new sites still tied to the Industry index for nullsec? Any plan on moving them away from it and give us any other means of "generating" them like hidden belts? Its a pita to keep the Industry index up just to have the exploration sites... a explorer should not be a miner!
As the Data and Relic sites are still the same Hacking and Archaeology sites as before, just with new names and new containers, there's no reason they wouldn't still be tied to the same indices as before. |
kyofu
Praetorian Black Guard Frater Adhuc Excessum
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 20:57:00 -
[494] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Maddan69 wrote:Can we get a response from a Dev if they are even considering changing the variable which causes the Loot Explosion?
Instead of having two tries at the hacking mini-game either: Failing the hack attempt you get the loot explosion. Succeeding in the hack attempt you loot the container like you would normally.
Twenty-four pages of basically everyone calling this loot explosion mechanic horrible is not a good sign and this is just the people "testing" the mechanic... I don't even want to see the outcry on the forums the following days after the patch hits the live server if this mechanic is introduced as it currently stands. We're talking about the scattering mechanic just now and are making a lot of changes to make it more usable.
My poor wrists greatly appreciate your consideration in this matter. My mouse too, as I think it knows it's close to getting smashed. |
Panhead4411
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services The Possum Lodge
315
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 21:02:00 -
[495] - Quote
please tell me that you are working on a way to NOT melt my graphics card, it has never gotten as hot as it did while i was in that site looking at the objective.
I have a GTX 670, and it got to 80* C. i've never seen it over 60-65* before. Something is wrong with your site.
Need my logs, why don't you try it yourself CCP. Go into one of these sites and look at how the PC reacts to them, instead of just coding 'pretty' into everything then wondering what in the world could be causing game crashes b/c you never really tested it. http://blog.beyondreality.se/shift-click-does-nothing -á-á < Unified Inventory is NOT ready... |
Xanadu Redux
Small Target
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 23:29:00 -
[496] - Quote
When I shoot a rat (or someone shoots me ) wreckage is left behind. Dice are rolled and wreckage is generated based on ship construction and cargo manifests. Static, owned wreckage.
Why would cans from these sites spew loot when wrecks do not?
Why are the hellish little cans not owned by the hacker / fleet / corp where wreckage is?
Why do the can last seconds while wreckage lasts an hour?
Why is an exploding ship rewarded potentially twice over (loot and salvage) while these sites have diminishing returns?
There are any number of ways to blow up rats/players and the skills invested into them are extremely broad in scope. Exploration skills are finite and tightly focused. Why punish explorers with these ill conceived mechanisms? |
Palal
Go For Broke
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 00:31:00 -
[497] - Quote
Tried it in null-sec (where I usually plex). Got a pair of Central Guristas's Sparkling. Couldn't finish any of them. I lucked out on one and got the final node quickly. Opened it. Stuff shot out in every direction. Clicked on a bunch of it. None of it made it into my cargo hold - none whatsoever. Waste of an hour of time. It basically failed and failed and failed over and over again.
Had 90/20 for stats.
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1777
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 03:44:00 -
[498] - Quote
the bug where the exploration structure spawns within collision bounds of an other structure is still there the last time i checked. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1777
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 03:48:00 -
[499] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Maddan69 wrote:Can we get a response from a Dev if they are even considering changing the variable which causes the Loot Explosion?
Instead of having two tries at the hacking mini-game either: Failing the hack attempt you get the loot explosion. Succeeding in the hack attempt you loot the container like you would normally.
Twenty-four pages of basically everyone calling this loot explosion mechanic horrible is not a good sign and this is just the people "testing" the mechanic... I don't even want to see the outcry on the forums the following days after the patch hits the live server if this mechanic is introduced as it currently stands. We're talking about the scattering mechanic just now and are making a lot of changes to make it more usable.
make scattering a punishment for an unsuccessful hack, not something you have to do after you won the hacking game. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Scuzzy Logic
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 05:24:00 -
[500] - Quote
Xanadu Redux wrote:When I shoot a rat (or someone shoots me ) wreckage is left behind. Dice are rolled and wreckage is generated based on ship construction and cargo manifests. Static, owned wreckage. Why would cans from these sites spew loot when wrecks do not? Why are the hellish little cans not owned by the hacker / fleet / corp where wreckage is? Why do the can last seconds while wreckage lasts an hour? Why is an exploding ship rewarded potentially twice over (loot and salvage) while these sites have diminishing returns? There are any number of ways to blow up rats/players and the skills invested into them are extremely broad in scope. Exploration skills are finite and tightly focused. Why punish explorers with these ill conceived mechanisms?
Tip of the iceberg, man. You have no idea.
|
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Scuzzy Logic
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 05:26:00 -
[501] - Quote
Palal wrote:Tried it in null-sec (where I usually plex). Got a pair of Central Guristas's Sparkling. Couldn't finish any of them. I lucked out on one and got the final node quickly. Opened it. Stuff shot out in every direction. Clicked on a bunch of it. None of it made it into my cargo hold - none whatsoever. Waste of an hour of time. It basically failed and failed and failed over and over again.
Had 90/20 for stats.
You wanna up the ante on your frustration? Cargo Scan it before you hack it successfully and have 2 300mil BPCs fly off in different directions along with a bunch of other 20-40mil stuff. Best part being you can't tell those from the other 1-3 junk cans until it's too late. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
168
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 07:42:00 -
[502] - Quote
Scuzzy Logic wrote:Palal wrote:Tried it in null-sec (where I usually plex). Got a pair of Central Guristas's Sparkling. Couldn't finish any of them. I lucked out on one and got the final node quickly. Opened it. Stuff shot out in every direction. Clicked on a bunch of it. None of it made it into my cargo hold - none whatsoever. Waste of an hour of time. It basically failed and failed and failed over and over again.
Had 90/20 for stats.
You wanna up the ante on your frustration? Cargo Scan it before you hack it successfully and have 2 300mil BPCs fly off in different directions along with a bunch of other 20-40mil stuff. Best part being you can't tell those from the other 1-3 junk cans until it's too late.
Personally I like the part where, when scanning the cargo of a Relic container in a site that I scanned down after having to open the system (hooray for offline traffic control!) ....
...I find that the unhacked container is, in fact... empty.
CCP, I know it's a highsec site and it's not supposed to be overwhelmingly profitable, but really? Cans that are empty? At least put a Pax Amarria in there or something. |
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 08:17:00 -
[503] - Quote
Played another site yesterday. CCP, have you updated the scattering mechanic?
Guys. If you now click on a can floating in space, it will activate the tractor beam until the can is near enough at your vessel. After that it plays some kind of sound, and then after a second it will transfer the loot from the can into your cargo. But IF you click on any other can during this process the first can will turn RED and will disappear. If you click on the next can too early, your previous can is LOST.
In fact, this is a good idea so you can click any can first and change the tractorbeam if you see a better one.
But please CCP, play the loot-successful-sound after the loot is save in your cargo. So I can have audio-feedback and can know when to click the next one.
o7 |
Hino Dallocort
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 09:57:00 -
[504] - Quote
I didnGÇÖt tried the new exploration system myself, but I read the whole tread and I would like to leave my impressions here. I apologize about the entire wall of text thatGÇÖs probably coming next, and my English.
First of all, letGÇÖs think about exploration for what is it at the moment, a grind activity, just like mining. The difference maybe is (or I think should be) that mining gives you more stable profit, and exploration should be more about luck, and peaks of profit, and this creates expectation when you find a site.
I will not enter to analyse the minigame because I didnGÇÖt played it, but I recommend to developers check the game GÇ£Hacker Evolution DualityGÇ¥, not to rip of all the mechanics obviously, but maybe you will found good ideas or inspiration to make the minigame more strategic. IGÇÖm going to put directly the changes or features that I would like to see on this exploration system (some already asked by many people) keeping this statement in mind: GÇ£Exploring alone, you are gonna have your chancesGǪ Exploring with 1-2 friends, you ensure the profit.GÇ¥ Note that the difficult of the minigame should have good balance with these features.
-Succesfull hacking get the cargo as usual, failing it, spread the cargo. Result: Solo: In success you get all the proft. On failing, if you have luck maybe you get part of the profit. With friends: In success you get all the profit. On failing, you and your friends can compensate the failing by getting almost every cargo, more friends, more chances to get all the profit. (maybe with 3 ships is enough) -Archeology site never spawn rats on failing. (Not dangerous sites) I think there is no sense that some pirates are monitoring some ancient or destroyed sites waiting for explorers. You can call this sites, the not dangerous sites. Archeology container spread the cargo on the FIRST fail. Result: Safe site (from PvE aspect) for solo exploration but with the risk of spread cargos. -Hacking site spawn rats on failing, but ONLY on the second try of certain container. (Dangerous sites) Let me explain on that. I read someone complaining about the rat spawn because with a Cover Ops ship, he failed the minigame, and because of that, he must leave the site, and lose the rest of containers without a chance to hack, because the lack of offensive capability of a CO ship. The response to that feedback was removing completely the spawn of rats, and I think that was a big mistake. If you remove all rat presence you make the process of hacking sites tedious and without sense of danger (from PvE aspect of course). To solve this problem and still keep hacking kind of exciting, spawn rats on all the sectors, but only on the second fail of a certain cargo, and the spread of the cargo only happens on second fail too. This allow the player manage the risk of set ON the alarm trying all the cargos almost one time (to that point the player maybe get some profit), and then he got left the containers that already have one fail on them, now itGÇÖs RISKY TIME! Now he can generate a rat spawn, but he has had almost one try on each container (if he plays clever). If he fail at this point, the cargo spread + rats have spawned = get all you can and get out of here!. The rats obviously escalates. Result: Solo: In success you get all the profit. On failing, if you manage the risk correctly, you have a chance to try on every container, get partial profit, and then take your chances to hack without set the alarm ON. On alarm set ON, get all you can of the spreaded cargos and fight back, or get out quickly. With friends: In success you get all the profit. On failing you manage the risk the same way, but when rats spawn, you always can fight back. -WH sites, follow the same rules, but still have initial rats on the site.
I think with this changes exploration would be an interesting activity to do solo or in company, without the actual frustration and makes a difference between hacking and archaeology sites. |
Itis Zhellin
28
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 10:45:00 -
[505] - Quote
I never felt so frustrated than now with these new explorations mechanics. Also cheated. I wasted months of training for a cov op that now turn to be the worst ship to do exploration, a T1 version is better. Buzzard or Helios are the worst choice to do exploration now on sisi, is not just that I dont have any defense, but they provide only scan strength bonus. They are still good ships for scouting, but for exploration the Imicus or Heron is better. Actually I don't even know if there is a T2 ship that have virus strength bonus on them... I found nothing.
And not sure if this a bug or a new feature: after a successful hacking, one of the loot can gave me an error on salvaging saying that my Buzzard cargo hold has not enough free space (115) to loot the can. Really?!? Do I need to bring a freighter now to loot those pinatas?
Npc cruisers are still spawning on fail, so the only way I can test these sites is to bring a combat ship, meaning that the failure chance is much more higher. Next week the expansion is set to go live and I really don't see how all these problems will get fixed. better delay the whole exploration part until late summer or even winter. As it is now it's a nightmare. |
Nicola Arman
Saiph Industries Upholders
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:32:00 -
[506] - Quote
Dax Buchanan wrote:
All in all i think these sites could be much more enjoyable if they were centered around the hacking game not the loot spewing. My idea would be to have in each hacking game not just a system core but also a node that leads one level deeper in the security system. So player can choose between hacking the core or consider to to take a risk and go deeper with remaining virus strenght to find even better loot. And then should this fail the loot spews as punishment and rats spawn.
This does sound better than the current mindless iteration. I wish they implemented something like this. Makes deeper, more immersive gameplay... |
Nubchucker
Kurator's Manky Potatoe's
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:38:00 -
[507] - Quote
I was pretty excited when I first read about the changes.
Finally I can do hacking/arch/exploration in an all in one ship \o/.
Imagine my disappointment to find T1 ships have a bonus to virus strength and T2 doesn't.
Basically due to the new hacking rigs etc I STILL need 2 ships.. A covert ops to scan the sites down and a T1 to run the site.
Seems stupid to me
|
|
CCP Bayesian
809
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:50:00 -
[508] - Quote
Nubchucker wrote:I was pretty excited when I first read about the changes.
Finally I can do hacking/arch/exploration in an all in one ship \o/.
Imagine my disappointment to find T1 ships have a bonus to virus strength and T2 doesn't.
Basically due to the new hacking rigs etc I STILL need 2 ships.. A covert ops to scan the sites down and a T1 to run the site.
Seems stupid to me
It seemed silly to us as well so we're rebalancing that aspect of it. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
|
CCP Bayesian
809
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 11:57:00 -
[509] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:The problem at the moment is that hackers start each attempt from scratch, you can't bring Utilities in with you and there are no utility elements that give you a peak at what might be where on the board. This limits the strategies that can be developed quite severely. I don't understand how you can acknowledge this is a problem and yet NOT fix it before implementing the system. It's just mind-boggling.
We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. We don't think the hacking mechanics are broken or ruined by not including it but we are making it a priority for the work we are doing right after release because it is the cornerstone to adding more depth to the mechanic. Ideas like the one Dax Buchanan mentioned of going deeper to get a chance at better loot are the sorts of additional mechanics we actively thinking about. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5267
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:00:00 -
[510] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. There seems to be a lot of that sentiment in Reykjavik right now. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
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Kel hound
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:06:00 -
[511] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. There seems to be a lot of that sentiment in Reykjavik right now.
Seriously. At this point I'd rather the old sites with the old mechanics than this "new and improved" crap. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1502
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:08:00 -
[512] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. There seems to be a lot of that sentiment in Reykjavik right now.
I'm more curious on why they thought rushing a prototype(pinata) onto sisi 3 weeks prior to release was a good idea. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it.
Idea for Improving NPE. |
Scuzzy Logic
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:19:00 -
[513] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. There seems to be a lot of that sentiment in Reykjavik right now. I'm more curious on why they thought rushing a prototype(pinata) onto sisi 3 weeks prior to release was a good idea.
Protip: Strip the feature and scrap it from the patch! You'll be ready to release even faster!
Seriously Bayesian, decisions like these is the reason I might drop this game for good. |
Scuzzy Logic
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:26:00 -
[514] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:The problem at the moment is that hackers start each attempt from scratch, you can't bring Utilities in with you and there are no utility elements that give you a peak at what might be where on the board. This limits the strategies that can be developed quite severely. I don't understand how you can acknowledge this is a problem and yet NOT fix it before implementing the system. It's just mind-boggling. We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. We don't think the hacking mechanics are broken or ruined by not including it but we are making it a priority for the work we are doing right after release because it is the cornerstone to adding more depth to the mechanic. Ideas like the one Dax Buchanan mentioned of going deeper to get a chance at better loot are the sorts of additional mechanics we actively thinking about.
Way to go improving the acceptable aspect of the minigame while completely ingoring the reason why most of us think the feature might deserve dropping.
For what its worth, Dax's idea seems great.
On the other hand, just nerfing supressors (especially in negsec sites) would alleviate much of the impossible scenarios that show up. Making the hacking itself too easy when you're going to shove the pinata in our faces despite our complaints might be your best bet at avoiding a 50-page forum rage on release week. |
Random Woman
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:28:00 -
[515] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. There seems to be a lot of that sentiment in Reykjavik right now.
Part of the quality offensive they are running... |
Raven Solaris
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
201
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:30:00 -
[516] - Quote
Scuzzy Logic wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. There seems to be a lot of that sentiment in Reykjavik right now. I'm more curious on why they thought rushing a prototype(pinata) onto sisi 3 weeks prior to release was a good idea. Protip: Strip the feature and scrap it from the patch! You'll be ready to release even faster! Seriously Bayesian, decisions like these is the reason I might drop this game for good.
Sadly, I'll +1 this.
Last real thing I'm going to raise about this is why does Odyssey seem like it's adding magic into the game?
We have magic probes that teleport into your hold if you leave system, but if they have to move around system or are recalled manually, we wait for them to warp.
We have a magic tractor beam on all of our ships now that can only be used to tractor in a very specific type of can, and nothing else, and auto-loots them after a few seconds. Meanwhile our non-magic tractor beams can tractor anything, don't auto-loot the special cans and the things that they're tractoring in can suddenly disappear despite being right next to you.
My suspension of disbelief is wearing thin. It's like when you put lockpicking into a fantasy game and let you break into vaults and chests but you can't break into random joe's house. |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:31:00 -
[517] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Nubchucker wrote:I was pretty excited when I first read about the changes.
Finally I can do hacking/arch/exploration in an all in one ship \o/.
Imagine my disappointment to find T1 ships have a bonus to virus strength and T2 doesn't.
Basically due to the new hacking rigs etc I STILL need 2 ships.. A covert ops to scan the sites down and a T1 to run the site.
Seems stupid to me
It seemed silly to us as well so we're rebalancing that aspect of it.
Are we going to see that rebalancing in time for the launch of odyssey? Also, I think im not crazy and the most recent build had another down tweak on the strength of the scanning modules. I think it is at a pretty good point now, seems to leave room for virtue set and makes them useful. Are you happy with the current ballance of the added probe strength through modules and how that relates to the virtue set? Sorry to be off topic T T |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
169
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:36:00 -
[518] - Quote
Raven Solaris wrote:Scuzzy Logic wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. There seems to be a lot of that sentiment in Reykjavik right now. I'm more curious on why they thought rushing a prototype(pinata) onto sisi 3 weeks prior to release was a good idea. Protip: Strip the feature and scrap it from the patch! You'll be ready to release even faster! Seriously Bayesian, decisions like these is the reason I might drop this game for good. Sadly, I'll +1 this. Last real thing I'm going to raise about this is why does Odyssey seem like it's adding magic into the game? We have magic probes that teleport into your hold if you leave system, but if they have to move around system or are recalled manually, we wait for them to warp. We have a magic tractor beam on all of our ships now that can only be used to tractor in a very specific type of can, and nothing else, and auto-loots them after a few seconds. Meanwhile our non-magic tractor beams can tractor anything, don't auto-loot the special cans and the things that they're tractoring in can suddenly disappear despite being right next to you. My suspension of disbelief is wearing thin. It's like when you put lockpicking into a fantasy game and let you break into vaults and chests but you can't break into random joe's house.
In the interest of dispelling magic, I would suggest that perhaps the "magic tractor beam" is in one way or another integrated into the analyzer modules.
|
Scuzzy Logic
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:36:00 -
[519] - Quote
Raven Solaris wrote:Scuzzy Logic wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. There seems to be a lot of that sentiment in Reykjavik right now. I'm more curious on why they thought rushing a prototype(pinata) onto sisi 3 weeks prior to release was a good idea. Protip: Strip the feature and scrap it from the patch! You'll be ready to release even faster! Seriously Bayesian, decisions like these is the reason I might drop this game for good. Sadly, I'll +1 this. Last real thing I'm going to raise about this is why does Odyssey seem like it's adding magic into the game? We have magic probes that teleport into your hold if you leave system, but if they have to move around system or are recalled manually, we wait for them to warp. We have a magic tractor beam on all of our ships now that can only be used to tractor in a very specific type of can, and nothing else, and auto-loots them after a few seconds. Meanwhile our non-magic tractor beams can tractor anything, don't auto-loot the special cans and the things that they're tractoring in can suddenly disappear despite being right next to you. My suspension of disbelief is wearing thin. It's like when you put lockpicking into a fantasy game and let you break into vaults and chests but you can't break into random joe's house.
You know, when you put it like THAT it makes even less sense. I just considered the TB module to focus the pinata beam into a more focused form, but magic is a much better explanation for why the other unexplainable garbage happens.
The probe thing I raised serious concerns about in the other thread, due to having max-researched BPOs of all the probe types. People gating out represent more than 90% of our sales.
It's funny how the expansion that promised my favourite occupation a load of improvements is giving me a visual upgrade and a mechanic sh*tfest in perspective. |
|
CCP Bayesian
809
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:45:00 -
[520] - Quote
blink alt wrote:Are we going to see that rebalancing in time for the launch of odyssey? Also, I think im not crazy and the most recent build had another down tweak on the strength of the scanning modules. I think it is at a pretty good point now, seems to leave room for virtue set and makes them useful. Are you happy with the current ballance of the added probe strength through modules and how that relates to the virtue set? Sorry to be off topic T T
Yes this rebalance will be in for release. I'm not the guy to talk to about tweaks to scanning modules. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
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spaceking7591
The Generic Pirate Corporation Fusion.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:46:00 -
[521] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Maddan69 wrote:Can we get a response from a Dev if they are even considering changing the variable which causes the Loot Explosion?
Instead of having two tries at the hacking mini-game either: Failing the hack attempt you get the loot explosion. Succeeding in the hack attempt you loot the container like you would normally.
Twenty-four pages of basically everyone calling this loot explosion mechanic horrible is not a good sign and this is just the people "testing" the mechanic... I don't even want to see the outcry on the forums the following days after the patch hits the live server if this mechanic is introduced as it currently stands. We're talking about the scattering mechanic just now and are making a lot of changes to make it more usable. make scattering a punishment for an unsuccessful hack, not something you have to do after you won the hacking game.
this, 100x this... the minigame as it stands is still way to difficult. even with lvl 5 skills. also didn't ccp want to remove rats from these sites? even if you fail? spawning rats when you fail a hack isn't a lot of fun. especially if you are in an exploration frigate. please CCP change it. because I won't be exploring anymore if these changes get on TQ. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1074
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 12:50:00 -
[522] - Quote
spaceking7591 wrote:Bienator II wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:Maddan69 wrote:Can we get a response from a Dev if they are even considering changing the variable which causes the Loot Explosion?
Instead of having two tries at the hacking mini-game either: Failing the hack attempt you get the loot explosion. Succeeding in the hack attempt you loot the container like you would normally.
Twenty-four pages of basically everyone calling this loot explosion mechanic horrible is not a good sign and this is just the people "testing" the mechanic... I don't even want to see the outcry on the forums the following days after the patch hits the live server if this mechanic is introduced as it currently stands. We're talking about the scattering mechanic just now and are making a lot of changes to make it more usable. make scattering a punishment for an unsuccessful hack, not something you have to do after you won the hacking game. this, 100x this... the minigame as it stands is still way to difficult. even with lvl 5 skills. also didn't ccp want to remove rats from these sites? even if you fail? spawning rats when you fail a hack isn't a lot of fun. especially if you are in an exploration frigate. please CCP change it. because I won't be exploring anymore if these changes get on TQ. Why do you feel you should still get loot for an unsuccessful hack? The loot pi+¦ata is bad, but that would be worse. It would encourage blobing at data and relic sites with absolutely no hacking done at all. The new failure method is the correct one, container destruction. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1889
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:01:00 -
[523] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Ideas like the one Dax Buchanan mentioned of going deeper to get a chance at better loot are the sorts of additional mechanics we actively thinking about. Well, at least my input gets considered.
Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
502
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:19:00 -
[524] - Quote
So what where all the changes made since yesterdays build. |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
71
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:34:00 -
[525] - Quote
After reading a lot of reviews on blogs and video reviews on youtube, I don't think there is anyone that actually enjoys the new sites. Most find some/most/all of it frustrating, from the amount of clicks, the randomness, and the spew mechanic esp. I don't see how they are an improvement over the current system, which yes isn't great (wait for a module to successfully open a can) but at least isn't frustrating like the new system. Given a choice between boring (but at least a bit relaxing) versus frustrating, the former is much preferable. Honestly, this should be kept out of live until it is something the majority of players enjoy when testing. The co-op element should be co-op in the hacking game itself, and the spew mechanic should be removed or at least only used when, say, the player fails to beat the system core. The hacking game needs to actually be a puzzle game, rather than a random clickfest, where player foresight and thoughtfulness determine the outcome. EVE players are patient and most, I think, would prefer things stay in development until they are quality (e.g., the way many ship rebalances have been done). |
MainDrain
7th Deepari Defence Armada Apocalypse Now.
210
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:48:00 -
[526] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Nubchucker wrote:I was pretty excited when I first read about the changes.
Finally I can do hacking/arch/exploration in an all in one ship \o/.
Imagine my disappointment to find T1 ships have a bonus to virus strength and T2 doesn't.
Basically due to the new hacking rigs etc I STILL need 2 ships.. A covert ops to scan the sites down and a T1 to run the site.
Seems stupid to me
It seemed silly to us as well so we're rebalancing that aspect of it.
Is this some sort of confirmation that the bonuses will be present on the T2 Cov ops hulls?? |
Kel hound
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 13:55:00 -
[527] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report and added to the known problems in the OP.
Is this still the case? I just warped out of a C3 relic site with 5 - 6 cruisers and 6 - 8 frigates. Is this working as intended? |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1074
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 14:02:00 -
[528] - Quote
Kel hound wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Forgive me if I am mistaken, but were all Data and Relic sites supposed to have no rats? Worm Hole Data and Relic Sites still seem to have sleepers. This should not be the case. Filed a quick bug report and added to the known problems in the OP. Is this still the case? I just warped out of a C3 relic site with 5 - 6 cruisers and 6 - 8 frigates. Is this working as intended? No it is not still the case, it was decided to leave the sleepers in wormholes alone. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes |
Itis Zhellin
28
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 14:05:00 -
[529] - Quote
Agree 120% that the exploration part should be left out from the next week expansion and work on it untill you get a positive feedback from the players. Why we need to shoot the Jita monument just to get us heard? As it is now, the exploration part is a total disaster. |
|
CCP Bayesian
811
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 14:06:00 -
[530] - Quote
MainDrain wrote:Is this some sort of confirmation that the bonuses will be present on the T2 Cov ops hulls??
Yup. T1 will have a +5 Strength bonus and T2 +10.
EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
|
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blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 14:08:00 -
[531] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:MainDrain wrote:Is this some sort of confirmation that the bonuses will be present on the T2 Cov ops hulls?? Yup. T1 will have a +5 Strength bonus and T2 +10.
Will the t3 scanning sub system get +10 too? |
Palal
Go For Broke
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 14:30:00 -
[532] - Quote
blink alt wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:MainDrain wrote:Is this some sort of confirmation that the bonuses will be present on the T2 Cov ops hulls?? Yup. T1 will have a +5 Strength bonus and T2 +10. Will the t3 scanning sub system get +10 too?
^^^ +1
Please make the T3's viable.. Played several null sec sites just now before singularity went offline. I was able to finish 2 and several I couldn't finish. Using the T1 module and hacking:4 & arch:4. So I'm not terrible.
PRO TIP: You're goning to want cargo hold extenders on your ships! Nothing worse than grabbing cans and not having enough room!
|
Mario delTorres
GBTeam C0VEN
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:19:00 -
[533] - Quote
t3 scanning subsystem has already +10% scan strength per level.
Palal wrote:blink alt wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:MainDrain wrote:Is this some sort of confirmation that the bonuses will be present on the T2 Cov ops hulls?? Yup. T1 will have a +5 Strength bonus and T2 +10. Will the t3 scanning sub system get +10 too? ^^^ +1 Please make the T3's viable.. Played several null sec sites just now before singularity went offline. I was able to finish 2 and several I couldn't finish. Using the T1 module and hacking:4 & arch:4. So I'm not terrible. PRO TIP: You're goning to want cargo hold extenders on your ships! Nothing worse than grabbing cans and not having enough room!
|
Panhead4411
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services The Possum Lodge
316
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:30:00 -
[534] - Quote
Nubchucker wrote:I was pretty excited when I first read about the changes.
Finally I can do hacking/arch/exploration in an all in one ship \o/.
Imagine my disappointment to find T1 ships have a bonus to virus strength and T2 doesn't.
Basically due to the new hacking rigs etc I STILL need 2 ships.. A covert ops to scan the sites down and a T1 to run the site.
Seems stupid to me
Yeah, imagine that, CCP not actually testing something. Never happens though...ever...
Also, on a side note...don't those same T1 hulls have a drone bay, to...i don't know....defend themselves...whereas, the T2 hulls...ummm...don't??!?!?!
Again with the boneheaded 'designing while in a very small single minded box' ideas that somehow escape reason.
http://blog.beyondreality.se/shift-click-does-nothing -á-á < Unified Inventory is NOT ready... |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
167
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:31:00 -
[535] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. We don't think the hacking mechanics are broken or ruined by not including it but we are making it a priority for the work we are doing right after release because it is the cornerstone to adding more depth to the mechanic. Ideas like the one Dax Buchanan mentioned of going deeper to get a chance at better loot are the sorts of additional mechanics we actively thinking about. Yeah I agree, it doesn't make it broken or ruined. It just makes it completely random and frustrating. Every other aspect of EvE you can make an effort to plan ahead (ship fitting, map checking, etc) in order to affect your success/survival. But not in this. And it's gonna annoy players when it goes live.
So you made this decision as a team? It's like you guys made the conscious decision to shoot yourselves in the foot. Well whatever works for you. Just hope you guys have prepped yourselves (and your bosses) for the upcoming ragestorm, and hope your reiteration comes within a couple weeks (if not days) of release.
Would love to see the metrics of average exploration sites run per day before and then following the release of this.
|
Saheed Cha'chris'ra
Krautz WH Exploration and Production
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:36:00 -
[536] - Quote
By the way guys, there is a NEW FEEDBACK THREAD since monday. Maybe you should tell your problems there, so the devs don't have to read both threads (why is this one not locked yet?). |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1913
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:43:00 -
[537] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote: FWIW we think the "mini tractor beam" goes part of the way to removing some of the magic from EVE. Namely how do you transfer loot from whatever contains it to your hold at a distance. To go the full way we would need to add the visualization to the other actions where this happens.
That would have to include putting stuff into cans, or transferring between cans. There it would be more of a "manipulator beam" rather than a tractor. Then consider the POS with the new long range transfer rules. Presumably the beams would come from the tower and be shown moving stuff as I do logistics. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
192
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:46:00 -
[538] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Vladimir Norkoff wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:The problem at the moment is that hackers start each attempt from scratch, you can't bring Utilities in with you and there are no utility elements that give you a peak at what might be where on the board. This limits the strategies that can be developed quite severely. I don't understand how you can acknowledge this is a problem and yet NOT fix it before implementing the system. It's just mind-boggling. We made a considered decision to not do that in order to release in a timely manner. We don't think the hacking mechanics are broken or ruined by not including it but we are making it a priority for the work we are doing right after release because it is the cornerstone to adding more depth to the mechanic. Ideas like the one Dax Buchanan mentioned of going deeper to get a chance at better loot are the sorts of additional mechanics we actively thinking about.
Some of us understand that you won't delay the whole release just to make this mini-game more exciting. Here is hoping that you'll make it a pretty big priority for the first few (point) releases afterwards, though. Try hard to add more depth to the game, the longevity of this staying interesting is the mini-game itself having enough depth to have replay-value instead of repeat-tedium.
I like the idea of getting more (or better) stuff into the cans by exploring more of the map or finding specific data nodes. |
Degin'eth
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 18:48:00 -
[539] - Quote
A Visual bug in Ruined Serpentis Crystal Quarry:
http://imgur.com/a/U3SSS
Or maybe it's intended? |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
2756
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:22:00 -
[540] - Quote
CCP, is there any particular reason you're ignoring the massive volume of posts from people saying that the loot spew mechanic either:
a. shouldn't be implemented at all b. is seriously not ready for primetime?
Because I'm beginning to question why the test server is there at all. Mane 614
|
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
176
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 21:10:00 -
[541] - Quote
The Black Monolith is certainly not a bug. However, I'm still convinced that every single Relic container continuing to spawn inside it is. |
Anela Cistine
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
172
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 00:41:00 -
[542] - Quote
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:After reading a lot of reviews on blogs and video reviews on youtube, I don't think there is anyone that actually enjoys the new sites.
I enjoy the new sites.
I enjoy the new sites more than the ones on Tranquility right now.
I even enjoy the spew mechanic. It is different than anything else in Eve right now, but different doesn't mean worse.
I'm not sure about the isk/hour. When I first tried profession sites years ago I didn't enjoy them very much, and everyone said the isk/hour wasn't nearly as good as activities like ratting or running complexes so I stopped doing them. I'm sure the ISK/hour is the easiest thing to tweak after release, when they have stats on how many people are using the system, and how good people get at catching spew.
This is a big change. People who love the current system for profession sites may not like the new system. On the other hand, people who don't like the current system may like the new system better. So far most of the people giving feedback are people who are used to the current system, and see the new system as a threat to something they like. We won't know whether most players like it or hate it until it is live on Tranquility and more people who aren't invested in the current system give it a spin. If more people are doing profession sites in a year than are doing them now, the change will be a success even if most of the current crop of explorers are mad about it.
My biggest concern right now is that most people in my alliance hate mining, so our industry indexes suck. I'm not sure if it will be practical to raise industry index on profession sites alone, or if the lack of mining will keep us in the ghetto. |
Telrei
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 06:39:00 -
[543] - Quote
Since as someone said before this thead is still open I will ask this here as well to CCP and others....
Telrei wrote: Eve is always and should always be the giant sandbox...
If you want to play solo you can play solo If you come to a harder challenge you just need more skills and a better ship or a group of lesser skilled players If you come to great challenges you can't beat no matter the skill or ship you need a group If you want to play with a group made up of yourself to overcome those same great challenges you can
The current system does away with that as a blanket ban....
I guess my question to you is simple. Why do you feel that all hacking and Arch sites should require multiple players no matter what the difficulty of the challenge is. Doesn't matter if I have 100+SP char with a +1b properly fit ship. Doesn't matter if I have 4 accounts that I am multi-boxing at once that can easily run almost any other site/mission/plex in the game.
Just that currently every hacking/Arch site no matter the level or difficulty must have two people running it to get the full reward (from the loot spew)....
|
Kai Pirinha
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 10:44:00 -
[544] - Quote
The hacking is doable, but frankly what I really do not appreciate is that "grab what you can"-experience. This is maybe fun once or twice, but if you are looking for a stable(!) income, than this makes those sites completely unattractive.
Sorry but even though it looked nice, I find this new system of loot utterly disgusting and have no fun in it.
My five cents. Of course others may have different opinions and try to convince me why it's better (or not). I just wanted to give you my personal input. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
178
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 11:00:00 -
[545] - Quote
Kai Pirinha wrote:The hacking is doable, but frankly what I really do not appreciate is that "grab what you can"-experience. This is maybe fun once or twice, but if you are looking for a stable(!) income, than this makes those sites completely unattractive.
Sorry but even though it looked nice, I find this new system of loot utterly disgusting and have no fun in it.
My five cents. Of course others may have different opinions and try to convince me why it's better (or not). I just wanted to give you my personal input.
New feedback thread. Up in the stickies. Open your eyes. Thank you.
One other thing: Treasure Hunting has never been a "stable" income, nor should it ever be. If you want stability, go run missions. |
Kai Pirinha
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 11:18:00 -
[546] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:New feedback thread. Up in the stickies. Open your eyes. Thank you.
One other thing: Treasure Hunting has never been a "stable" income, nor should it ever be. If you want stability, go run missions. Ah thanks, sorry I missed it.
Yes it has never been a "stable" income, but now it becomes even more unstable because I might miss the few goodies that made it worthwhile. So it feels like luck-¦ (luck squared), because I do not only need luck to have a site with something in it, but also to grab the correct container.
Before it was somewhat stable. Doing 20 sites gave you a relatively constant amount of ISK - maybe a bit more on one day and a bit less the next, but over time you could be fairly accurate about your income. Now with that "fast fast" "grab grab" "hush hush" it is not what I'm looking for, it becomes to stressy and to quick and I don't like it. That's all I am saying and I think I am entitled to my opinion and to share it, especially if CCP asked for it. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Extinction Level Event.
474
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:15:00 -
[547] - Quote
A good suggestion: Add a node in the exploration game that unlock a expedition, reveling the location of a harder site only accessible to you and your fleet. In other system. This site obviously have a better loot and could take to other site...
This would probably make the players to travel allot. And really explore the game.
The main Idea would be to force players to move from regions of space into lower security as the difficulty increases, until it starts leadin into WHSpace and Deeper WHSpace... Of course, it becomes really more difficult to find Specific WH systems, but if you run it quite allot, you will end up with a nice pool of systems and the small probability will start to become relevant.
Also this makes the rewards progressive with the time and effort. What makes this a meaningful profession to invest. Please read these! > New POS system > New SOV system |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Extinction Level Event.
474
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:16:00 -
[548] - Quote
Is there any chance to we need to get inside huge caves? Please read these! > New POS system > New SOV system |
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CCP Bayesian
823
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:49:00 -
[549] - Quote
Kai Pirinha wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:New feedback thread. Up in the stickies. Open your eyes. Thank you.
One other thing: Treasure Hunting has never been a "stable" income, nor should it ever be. If you want stability, go run missions. Ah thanks, sorry I missed it. Yes it has never been a "stable" income, but now it becomes even more unstable because I might miss the few goodies that made it worthwhile. So it feels like luck-¦ (luck squared), because I do not only need luck to have a site with something in it, but also to grab the correct container. Before it was somewhat stable. Doing 20 sites gave you a relatively constant amount of ISK - maybe a bit more on one day and a bit less the next, but over time you could be fairly accurate about your income. Now with that "fast fast" "grab grab" "hush hush" it is not what I'm looking for, it becomes to stressy and to quick and I don't like it. That's all I am saying and I think I am entitled to my opinion and to share it, especially if CCP asked for it.
You can work on both now, the cans that are scattered out are described based on their contents and you can scan the sites themselves to find out whats in them and make sensible choices. We're intending to make a bunch of usability improvements to identifying the different can types. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 18:42:00 -
[550] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:You can work on both now, the cans that are scattered out are described based on their contents and you can scan the sites themselves to find out whats in them and make sensible choices. We're intending to make a bunch of usability improvements to identifying the different can types.
I would be interested in more details on this. At first I assumed the can names meant something and reflected what kind of items could spawn in it, beyond just the low value items like the test reports. However, upon more testing it was apparant that the good loot, like the decyptors in a data site, was randomly spawning in any given container that was scattered from the spew container. Ill be sure to get back on sisi to try to figure it out myself but would apprecaite if you could take a moment for some clarification. |
|
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CCP Bayesian
823
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 18:47:00 -
[551] - Quote
blink alt wrote:I would be interested in more details on this. At first I assumed the can names meant something and reflected what kind of items could spawn in it, beyond just the low value items like the test reports. However, upon more testing it was apparant that the good loot, like the decyptors in a data site, was randomly spawning in any given container that was scattered from the spew container. Ill be sure to get back on sisi to try to figure it out myself but would apprecaite if you could take a moment for some clarification.
CCP Prime did it so I'm not entirely sure of the distribution but the items in the containers do now fit with the name of the container. I'll prompt him to explain in more depth. EVE Software Engineer Team Prototyping Rocks |
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
233
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 19:12:00 -
[552] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:blink alt wrote:I would be interested in more details on this. At first I assumed the can names meant something and reflected what kind of items could spawn in it, beyond just the low value items like the test reports. However, upon more testing it was apparant that the good loot, like the decyptors in a data site, was randomly spawning in any given container that was scattered from the spew container. Ill be sure to get back on sisi to try to figure it out myself but would apprecaite if you could take a moment for some clarification. CCP Prime did it so I'm not entirely sure of the distribution but the items in the containers do now fit with the name of the container. I'll prompt him to explain in more depth. CCP Bayesian, can you explain the design intent behind the scattering container? Isn't the "game" in the hacking itself and thus the reward should be guaranteed? I think a successful hack should produce a loot window and an unsuccessful one could produce the scatter.
Hell, it'd be epic if ships created a loot scatter as well when they exploded!
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Soul-Crashing Lag
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 21:15:00 -
[553] - Quote
I tried testing out the new probing system and I went looking 15 systems and found no signatures. Eventually I found one.
Is it normal for sites to be this scarce ?
|
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 21:24:00 -
[554] - Quote
Soul-Crashing Lag wrote:I tried testing out the new probing system and I went looking 15 systems and found no signatures. Eventually I found one.
Is it normal for sites to be this scarce ?
Sisi has few players working the re-spawns, so it's normal(ish). 15 systems is a lot though, you might you want to check your filters. |
Mary Titania
Neko Neko Honpo EVE Alliance 99001436
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 00:11:00 -
[555] - Quote
Don't be displayed in the overview items scattered? |
Dodger Roger
Pinnacle Salvage
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 06:05:00 -
[556] - Quote
Just got done doing some relic sites in null sec.
First off the hacking game seems to be insanely difficult and not in the good way. I get some grids that just are impossible to beat with the firewall placement.
Also if your going to make it so there are no npcs at the start but they spawn when failing a hack, please change tech 2 covert op ship to be able to defend themselves with a drone bay like the tech 1 ships.
During the stream (on twitch) the developer said that all scanning ships, t1 and t2 would be getting bonuses to the hacking game, which I do not see on the tech 2 covert ops.
I don't understand the need for the npc spawn on failing as if you fail twice the thing blows up getting you no money. Exploration ships are already burdened with so much special mods they have to carry to scan down the sites and to access them. Please take a look at that. |
XmonkTad
The Concilium Enterprises THE ROYAL NAVY
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 06:11:00 -
[557] - Quote
Mario delTorres wrote:Palal wrote:blink alt wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:MainDrain wrote:Is this some sort of confirmation that the bonuses will be present on the T2 Cov ops hulls?? Yup. T1 will have a +5 Strength bonus and T2 +10. Will the t3 scanning sub system get +10 too? ^^^ +1 Please make the T3's viable.. Played several null sec sites just now before singularity went offline. I was able to finish 2 and several I couldn't finish. Using the T1 module and hacking:4 & arch:4. So I'm not terrible. PRO TIP: You're goning to want cargo hold extenders on your ships! Nothing worse than grabbing cans and not having enough room! t3 scanning subsystem has already +10% scan strength per level.
I too am interested in making sure that T3s get the virus strength bonus as well. Or at least make a mod for it. Cov Ops ships have next to 0 in terms of combat potential, especially when loaded up with scanning mods. If there will be any spawns at all in these sites then some form of offense will be needed, probably in the form of another ship. I don't see why we can't have T3's, which are the traditional all-in-one exploration ships, given a similar bonus to the scanning subsystem. Perhaps have it replace that tractor beam range bonus (the one we never use)? Or any ship that has a bonus to tractor beam range could also have a bonus to the range at which they can collect the spew containers? Really, I just want my T3 to be as good as a T1 ship for running profession sites. |
Teraim
Love the Bubble SpaceMonkey's Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 08:37:00 -
[558] - Quote
I've just run a few sites (relic mainly) in null sec, altough the old mechanics were a bit boring I liked it better than the new one. The loot tables might be better but I didn't get any of it while the time I spend is more Also the hacking game itself get boring quickly... just clicking away with a half a brain does it (or not and poof). I rather sip my coffee while the module does the work...
I'm not going to type a long story as all points of concern have already been voiced by others before me.
Until they boost/fix the mechanics I'll be running combat sites only as I simply don't see the value vs time (or fun). Maybe a change in career is another option, unless things change on the short term (which I doubt based on experience :-))
I like the new scanning system a lot btw, great work!
|
Henry Montclaire
Vortex Research Dalek Asylum
55
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 09:15:00 -
[559] - Quote
Soul-Crashing Lag wrote:I tried testing out the new probing system and I went looking 15 systems and found no signatures. Eventually I found one.
Is it normal for sites to be this scarce ?
Just spent about four hours flying through null sec looking for sites and found none, except for one at the very beginning. |
Hehaw Jimbojohnson
Frontier Explorer's League Sadistica Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 11:05:00 -
[560] - Quote
Tried it again last night, after flying around null and low for a couple hours scanning systems, I finally found ONE site in a .3. Pretty sure it was Caldari space at this point. Upon warping in, I noticed the cans were all on top of each other, and there were STILL card-melting clouds of **** around said containers. Getting close enough and zooming in enough to have a chance at catching the failcans caused my GTX 570 to go to perma-100% utilization and my FPS dropped from 60 (capped) to anywhere from 15 to 3. Yes, three. Lowering all settings to minimum didn't change anything.
Failclouds aside, I scanned all 6 or 7 containers in the site, and it was almost entirely T1 salvage worth less than 50k per can. ONE of the cans had a little bit of T2 salvage in it, and would have been worth about 20 mil. I started the hacking minigame on this can, and what happens? I move 2 nodes, suppressor. Move 2 nodes teh other way, another suppressor. Take the only other path available and run into a firewall. With their strengths and the suppressors, it was literally impossible to go anywhere. Just to test, I tried hacking the weakest of the three, and failed. It then spawned a cruiser, and I had to leave in my cov ops. After wasting that much time trying to find a site, and then the site still being pretty much broken, I logged off in disgust.
So, in closing...we're 3 days away from launch. I sure hope this isn't the final launch build on SiSi, because:
1) There are still failclouds around each can that make the can-catching failgame completely impossible. 2) Loot value still seems pretty awful, and that's taking into account the total value of each can, when in reality you're likely to get maybe half of that in the lootgame. 3) The hacking minigame is still nothing but a random failfest. If you happen to get suppressors near the start of the hack, you're pretty much done, no matter what you do. Since it is all hidden, there's absolutely NO strategy in avoiding them, it is just pure dumb luck. This is terrible design, esp when the loot value as a whole is pretty bad. If you scan a can and see it has good loot, and then get a literally impossible hack and the can poofs, this just makes you want to uninstall.
My thoughts? Since it clearly seems you guys can't get this right before launch, postpone this feature. It sucks, and everyone has been telling you it sucks. If you push it out in this state and all of the people that don't use SISI find out we've been TELLING you it sucks for weeks, there is likely going to be Incarna-type feedback.
Well, that went much longer than I planned to, but watching you guys ignore feedback on this system for weeks and knowing it is going to launch in 3 days has really disappointed me. |
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
190
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 11:10:00 -
[561] - Quote
"Incarna-type"... please. There aren't enough of us for that, and it's losing its meaning with how much everyone's throwing it around lately. |
Hehaw Jimbojohnson
Frontier Explorer's League Sadistica Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 11:21:00 -
[562] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:"Incarna-type"... please. There aren't enough of us for that, and it's losing its meaning with how much everyone's throwing it around lately.
When they hype an expansion to be about exploration, people are likely going to try exploration. When said exploration sucks...well, yeah. I'm sure there will be plenty of people WTF'ing. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
178
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 11:42:00 -
[563] - Quote
Hehaw Jimbojohnson wrote: 3) The hacking minigame is still nothing but a random failfest. If you happen to get suppressors near the start of the hack, you're pretty much done, no matter what you do. Since it is all hidden, there's absolutely NO strategy in avoiding them, it is just pure dumb luck. In it's current form, yes the hacking game is just random and frustrating. But it has huge potential to be something EPIC. There are so many things that can be done with the system to make it a hell of alot of fun. Unfortunately they didn't include any of those things. Which really is a pity. Because it's going to roll out as this "random failfest", and everyone's first impression is going to be that it sucks ass. When instead it's probably the single best feature of the entire expansion (if/when it gets reworked).
The loot spew on the other hand, adds nothing beneficial or enjoyable to the game. And will most likely be a source of frustration and hatred as CCP introduces it into other areas of EvE as time goes on. I foresee a day when you go to loot wrecks, and they just spew mods all over the place. Cuz wreck looting should be a multiplayer experience!
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Hehaw Jimbojohnson
Frontier Explorer's League Sadistica Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 11:58:00 -
[564] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Hehaw Jimbojohnson wrote: 3) The hacking minigame is still nothing but a random failfest. If you happen to get suppressors near the start of the hack, you're pretty much done, no matter what you do. Since it is all hidden, there's absolutely NO strategy in avoiding them, it is just pure dumb luck. In it's current form, yes the hacking game is just random and frustrating. But it has huge potential to be something EPIC. There are so many things that can be done with the system to make it a hell of alot of fun. Unfortunately they didn't include any of those things. Which really is a pity. Because it's going to roll out as this "random failfest", and everyone's first impression is going to be that it sucks ass. When instead it's probably the single best feature of the entire expansion (if/when it gets reworked). The loot spew on the other hand, adds nothing beneficial or enjoyable to the game. And will most likely be a source of frustration and hatred as CCP introduces it into other areas of EvE as time goes on. I foresee a day when you go to loot wrecks, and they just spew mods all over the place. Cuz wreck looting should be a multiplayer experience!
While true, "potential" is irrelevant. A lot of things in EVE have had "great potential" for years, that doesn't mean CCP is going to realize that potential. Replacing a currently working (although somewhat boring) exploration system with something that is broken but "has potential" is a terrible idea. Release it when it is ready to be released.
You're right about the loot spew. I still can't understand why they're so insistent on implementing it when feedback has been overwhelmingly negative, and people have made clear it isn't a tuning issue, it is the idea itself that just doesn't work in this kind of game. |
Der Rest
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 13:00:00 -
[565] - Quote
"Really, I just want my T3 to be as good as a T1 ship for running profession sites."
Why using a T3? You cant use them anymore for 3/10 or 4/10. Their time as an one in all exploration vessel are over when you dont farm stuff 5/10 and higher. Odyssey wasn't made for solo explorers (soloing made the exploration feeling more intense for me :/ ) it's more for Ishtar (other HACS or w/e) and scanning alts or groups.
|
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
190
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 13:08:00 -
[566] - Quote
Der Rest wrote: "Really, I just want my T3 to be as good as a T1 ship for running profession sites."
Why using a T3? You cant use them anymore for 3/10 or 4/10. Their time as an one in all exploration vessel are over when you dont farm stuff 5/10 and higher. Odyssey wasn't made for solo explorers (soloing made the exploration feeling more intense for me :/ ) it's more for Ishtar (other HACS or w/e) and scanning alts or groups.
Some of us have invested quite a bit of time and money into our T3s and would like to continue using them. We're familiar with them and we enjoy flying them. Believe it or not, there are other things in this game than your godforsaken ISK/hr and min/max efficiency ratio. Stop being so blasted Caldari.
When CCP Seagull said that Solo Players were among the groups CCP was going to keep in mind from now on when developing new content, I wonder if she really meant "we're going to find you and we're going to make everything you do encourage you team up or if we can't do that we're going to make you quit." Maybe a little dramatic in my delivery, but still. |
Invisusira
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
170
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 13:10:00 -
[567] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Just to clear this up - I fully intend to revisit the clouds in missions issue but that won't happen for Odyssey. The new hacking and archaeology sites DO NOT have mission clouds in them. We have removed all mission/old style clouds from the sites. The new containers have particle effects attached and the issue currently is that in some sites 6 cans are stacked on top of each other and 6 particle effects on top of each other will obviously cause FPS issues :) This has been fixed in some sites and will be fixed in all sites in the coming days. +1 glad to hear. Between glitches with graphics and FPS issues, clouds have been the absolute bane of many, many, MANY pilots for a loooooong time. Core Skills - train em up train em up! |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
178
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 13:33:00 -
[568] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Some of us have invested quite a bit of time and money into our T3s and would like to continue using them. We're familiar with them and we enjoy flying them. Believe it or not, there are other things in this game than your godforsaken ISK/hr and min/max efficiency ratio. Stop being so blasted Caldari. Then again, some of us have invested plenty of time and ikies into T3s, and realize that they are overpowered beastboats that are long overdue for a severe beating with a nerfbat (my T3 in particular - the Tengu). The fact that they are so overpowered and can do anything better than any other cruiser or BC, is the sole reason we invested so much time and isk. And yet you want them to be even better, and continue obsoleting other ships. Despite the fact that T3s have never had a bonus to Codebreakers/Analyzers before. Go figure.
|
Der Rest
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 13:43:00 -
[569] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Der Rest wrote: "Really, I just want my T3 to be as good as a T1 ship for running profession sites."
Why using a T3? You cant use them anymore for 3/10 or 4/10. Their time as an one in all exploration vessel are over when you dont farm stuff 5/10 and higher. Odyssey wasn't made for solo explorers (soloing made the exploration feeling more intense for me :/ ) it's more for Ishtar (other HACS or w/e) and scanning alts or groups.
Some of us have invested quite a bit of time and money into our T3s and would like to continue using them. We're familiar with them and we enjoy flying them. Believe it or not, there are other things in this game than your godforsaken ISK/hr and min/max efficiency ratio. Stop being so blasted Caldari. When CCP Seagull said that Solo Players were among the groups CCP was going to keep in mind from now on when developing new content, I wonder if she really meant "we're going to find you and we're going to make everything you do encourage you team up or if we can't do that we're going to make you quit." Maybe a little dramatic in my delivery, but still.
I'm using all in one T3's myself, i was just beeing realistic as it is impossible now to use them for all kinds of stuff except 1/10 and 2/10. I was just saying that exploring in odyssey has written "FU solo all in one ship flying explorers" in big letters all over it. |
Der Rest
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 13:48:00 -
[570] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Some of us have invested quite a bit of time and money into our T3s and would like to continue using them. We're familiar with them and we enjoy flying them. Believe it or not, there are other things in this game than your godforsaken ISK/hr and min/max efficiency ratio. Stop being so blasted Caldari. Then again, some of us have invested plenty of time and ikies into T3s, and realize that they are overpowered beastboats that are long overdue for a severe beating with a nerfbat (my T3 in particular - the Tengu). The fact that they are so overpowered and can do anything better than any other cruiser or BC, is the sole reason we invested so much time and isk. And yet you want them to be even better, and continue obsoleting other ships. Despite the fact that T3s have never had a bonus to Codebreakers/Analyzers before. Go figure. Yeah right why skilling and investing money to get better? Next time marauders get banned from lvl 4 missions because they are overpowered or w/e. Believe it or not, this addon is a kick to the nuts for exploring vets. |
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
178
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 14:40:00 -
[571] - Quote
Der Rest wrote: Yeah right why skilling and investing money to get better? Next time marauders get banned from lvl 4 missions because they are overpowered or w/e. Believe it or not, this addon is a kick to the nuts for exploring vets. Believe it or not, some of us are exploring vets and realize that our T3s are getting phased out to a secondary position. Granted the 3/10 and 4/10 ban was hamfisted and illogical "fix" (BCs can enter but not T3s? wtf). But that doesn't give our T3s some special privilege to be as good or a better for exploration than a T2 ship that is specialized for it (namely the Cov Ops). T3s will still excel for PvP, mission-running, jaunting about nullsec, and doing WH content. We don't need them to curbstomp hi-sec exploration sites. And tbh any decent "exploration vet" has already paid for his T3 many times over, so they weren't a loss to invest in. We made our easy ISK, time to move on.
|
Der Rest
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 14:48:00 -
[572] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Der Rest wrote: Yeah right why skilling and investing money to get better? Next time marauders get banned from lvl 4 missions because they are overpowered or w/e. Believe it or not, this addon is a kick to the nuts for exploring vets. Believe it or not, some of us are exploring vets and realize that our T3s are getting phased out to a secondary position. Granted the 3/10 and 4/10 ban was hamfisted and illogical "fix" (BCs can enter but not T3s? wtf). But that doesn't give our T3s some special privilege to be as good or a better for exploration than a T2 ship that is specialized for it (namely the Cov Ops). T3s will still excel for PvP, mission-running, jaunting about nullsec, and doing WH content. We don't need them to curbstomp hi-sec exploration sites. And tbh any decent "exploration vet" has already paid for his T3 many times over, so they weren't a loss to invest in. We made our easy ISK, time to move on. I could not agree more dont get me wrong. I will use an ishtar and scanning alt in odyssey, Cerberus would be a good choice too but Ishtar has more free utility slots with Armor tank. Won't take long till some ppl cry about all the evil HACS blitzing "their" DED Sites, hehe. |
Jasdemi
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 16:26:00 -
[573] - Quote
I like the mini game, but loot scattering is ******* annoying. WTF were you thinking? Give me 5 can worth of loot and remove this non-sense.
Thanks for killing my profession. :( |
Jonathan Malcom
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
120
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 21:44:00 -
[574] - Quote
So, I actually enjoy the mini game. It needs fleshing out, but I find it very heartening that CCP is replacing boring, activate-to-receive-bacon activities with stuff that requires player interaction. Big fan of that. Hopefully mining will eventually find itself on this particular chopping block.
In terms of actual mechanics, this guy has it right.
Abrazzar wrote:I say it again: Remove the pi+¦ata, remove the garbage, focus on the hacking game.
- nodes in the hacking game add a item from a specific loot table to the stash
- hacking the core allows you to release the stash or dig deeper into the system
- deeper levels have greater difficulty, depth of the system depends on the site/security/object
- failing in the hack locks the site, no rats, no explosions, just system lockdown
- failing the hack forfeits the stash, permadeath, a failure penalty you feel
- other players can boost the hacking player using a script on the hacking module
- can only activate one module on another player per ship
- allows taking turns with the hacking game without compromising the fit
- makes co-op more profitable as boosted hackers can go in deeper/open more items/finish the hack quicker
And this is just from the top of my head.
Do this, or something like it. I'm amazed it wasn't built like this to begin with. |
Dragon Mnementh
Legion Interpolis The Kadeshi
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 17:26:00 -
[575] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Hey everyone As of today, the data/relic sites (the old hacking/archaeology) sites have been updated for highsec and lowsec. WeGÇÖre currently working on updating the 0.0 ones, which should be coming within the next 2-3 days. For now, weGÇÖd love it if you tried our new exploration experience. Grab a ship, head into high sec or low sec and scan some signatures. What weGÇÖre looking for specifically, is stuff like:
- How do you like the look and feel of the new sites? We put in new containers and moved things around.
- How do you like the hacking challenge? What were the results? (what was your strength and coherency, did you win the challenges etc)
- How do you like the new looting mechanic?
Quick note: This thread is the sites/hacking game/loot mechanic. Probe, system scanner feedback etc, is not for this thread. Also, I think I'll do a few known issues:
- Containers do not despawn properly upon completion
Anyway, weGÇÖll be watching the thread for potential changes, thanks guys. Soundwave
so now i managed to fins a data site in null sec and a relic site in low sec
the look of the sites are nice and ok , only teh containers are a bit to far awy sometimes the hacking challenge is ruining the hacking i had 5 comtainers in that null sec site and there i managed only to get 2 to open the other 3 explodes. before i was able to get from 25 mil to 100 mil out of a hacking site. this time i got 320k that is verry verry low, so as you announced that it will be the same as before You announced at 28.05: Because players are no longer guaranteed to receive all the loot when opening a profession container, loot drops have been increased to compensate. This is a combination of increased drop chance, increased quantity, higher number of runs, etc. On average, a solo player should receive loot of equal value post-Odyssey as he receives now
well i did not see that
for me is was all times much lower as before, and the floating containers are nice to see but not verry usefull.
at least the time to complete a data site is now much longer as before. and when we do not get much more salvage loot as before the game will go and rise the prices for that in nuch higher prices.
you put new capital rigs into game that need 5 the peaces of an large rig, so i expected more salvage loot from ships and specially from data and relic sites to get the market stable, but at time i do not see that.
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
425
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 19:48:00 -
[576] - Quote
I ran three sites. Made 16.3 mil. And only because of a "lucky" loot at 14.3.
Confirmed that loot tables are very very UGLY. G££ <= Me |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
81
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 23:14:00 -
[577] - Quote
Altrue wrote:I ran three sites. Made 16.3 mil. And only because of a "lucky" loot at 14.3.
Confirmed that loot tables are very very UGLY.
Thank the people who got a jackpot and bragged about it like it was the norm for them. And then bragged about getting 80% of cans solo.
That said i actualy got a decent loot from a low sec data site today (some 3 run faction bpc). That was the first and only genuinely good loot drop that i had in all these weeks of testing since the new sites were introduced to Sisi. Other then that the average has been pretty miserable, defo below of what the same number of sites had given me on TQ with the old sites. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1547
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:03:00 -
[578] - Quote
Anybody do a list of what drops in each can yet? I know Parts drop Decryptors and Datacores at least from what Ive tested.
Pretty much profession sites will be Cargo Scan + Cherry Pick Cans = Max profit for solo explorers. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
ClusterFook
Mors Omnibus.
29
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 01:52:00 -
[579] - Quote
Ran 2 sites in null today for the first time. I have to say i'm rather disappointed. It took about an hour to find these sites and run them. i made about 2 million total if i could be bothered to move that junk to sell. The Mini game is 35% training, 10% ship/ship mods, 50% luck and 5% strategy/player skill. So kinda lame there. But honestly for everything you have to do to find these sites the loot is crap. I could make more isk running lvl 1 missions. Even if you count the lucky faction BPC that never drops. |
DotheBarrel Roll
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 04:03:00 -
[580] - Quote
1. Not having the loot containers show up in the overview is completely inconsistend with every other aspect of the game. What were you thinking? Why cant i add that to the overview?
2. containers with a time to live (TTL) that is shortened by hovering the mouse over a container where you cant possibly otherwise read its name is very frustrating. I mean i can see why you did it that way, but cherry picking is a pain in the ass and i wont sub another account just to grab all that carbon and data sheets. Needless to say i was jumping through hoops like scanning and playing the minigame, just to get container bukkake'd
3. YOU CAN EXTEND THE CONTAINER TIME BY HAMMERING THE CONTAINER.. welcome to the click fest. <- this one's one of the worst.
4. someone not in fleet opens a container.. loot gets scattered, he cant pick it all up, containers are grey to everyone else... let me steal and become suspect at least.. no interaction with other players = no fun :/
that said, I made around 40-60m in hisec.. The minigame is fine, but becomes too easy if you go breadth-first imho.. average time to open a can is around 1-2 minutes.. |
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Torgeir Hekard
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 12:54:00 -
[581] - Quote
DotheBarrel Roll wrote: 2. sites in null seem to be imbalanced at times... find one surpressor/regenerator and happen to stumble over another one you are pretty much done.. seen grids with 2supressor and 2regenerator +firewal+antivirus..
Actually today I had a hillarious hacking run. I stepped on 2 suppressors and 2 regenerators early on and was pretty much doomed (wasn't able to kill them). I decided to give it a try anyway and ran through the site like mad. Got lucky on utilities and managed to find the core without having to tear through now nigh invulnurable firewalls. Then I just nuked the core with every utility I've got and knocked it out with what little strenght I had.
As for loot - I think I've bagged about 5-7 archeology sites in stain/eso which netted me about 400mil total (go for materials! But loot distribution is uneven).Also got 2 radars. One had worthless loot, one had about 15mil worth in decryptors (go for parts I believe - they give you decryptors. Though chancing data conts for BPC might be worth it. Proably).
Used a heron with caldari frig 5, T1 tools, no rigs, no scanner (4GQ has ****** market, -DD- should feel bad), 2 in archeology and 3 in hacking. Got lucky and done about 80-90% of the conts I think (had 3 or 4 exploded conts for all the sites).
On an unrelated note. I've got a site failing to despawn. Scanned down a Sansha Sparkling Transmitter, warped, started doing a cont. Got dropped by an Ishtar mid-hackin, warped out and left the system. Returned there about half an hour later to find my site still there with nobody in system and no conts on site. Went away. Returned in about an hour - it was still there. |
Raven Solaris
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
233
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 14:11:00 -
[582] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Anybody do a list of what drops in each can yet? I know Parts drop Decryptors and Datacores: Data drops BPCs, at least from what Ive tested.
Pretty much profession sites will be Cargo Scan + Cherry Pick Cans = Max profit for solo explorers.
Data: Equipment: Rubbish Data: Blueprints, Skillbooks Parts: Decryptors, Datacores Materials: Auxilliary Parts, etc. Scraps: Rubbish.
Relic: Equipment: Rubbish Data: Blueprints, Skillboks Parts: Salvage Materials: Salvage/Scanning module components. Scraps: Rubbish
That was my experience on Sisi and it's still sering me well on TQ. |
Miccet
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 14:25:00 -
[583] - Quote
I love the mini game, and I'm pretty confident that you will be able to balance the firewalls and bonuses in time. The big problem is the spewing of cans as a reward. The most annoying thing might be that your cargo fills up with stuff you didn't really want to load in anyway. You have two attempts per can right, so put spewing as a punishment if you don't make the puzzle in one go. I get that this is a team effort idea, but make us able to hack the puzzle together with one hacking device each to boost the time factor for gangs then.
Exploration is promoted on the website as a solo profession and I'd like it to stay that way with these sites (gangs benefit more from combat sites anyway). You really have no help using alts in these puzzles either, so a big nerf for us who enjoy flying solo exploring on odd times. |
Atharne
Spiral Architect Industries
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 10:48:00 -
[584] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
We've reduced the number of cans and are looking at loot table again. In general though, the scattering and picking up of cans remains.
Sorry, no. That's unacceptable. The loot scattering click-fest will need to be entirely abolished. It is unwarranted, unenjoyable and nonsensical. A successful hack should simply award you loot like a regular container. Also, no rats. Why this needs to be said over and over is beyond comprehension. |
Julius Priscus
126
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 16:58:00 -
[585] - Quote
I stopped running these new sites ages ago... just another version of the grind.
does anyone know if 2 or more people from the same corp/alliance can bring in cans and scoop up? -»\_(pâä)_/-»-á Sup cracka ! |
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