Freighters need a nice big HP buff or some mid lows. Having a 2 billion isk ship with its hold unable to haul more than a billion or so because of close to no risk / no skill ganks is pretty awful design.

GǪand the whole counterpoint is that it misses out on the part that lets humans do what humans do: investigating and judging close calls.

No, I mean 70% reduction, because that's what's required for the wildly inaccurate HP number on the killmail to be correct. In short, the number on the killmail is GÇö as always GÇö unreliable in preeeeetty much every way. Oh, and the gankers still need the 500 DPS because no-one plans on having to do it in two runs. If you want to calculate it that way, then congratulations, the price just went up to 10GÇô20M per ganker. We're getting further and further away from the initially (incorrectly) estimate of 1M.

You mean the table that says 7 seconds for a 0.8 + 6 seconds for off-grid CONCORD -¦1 for each event due to sync-to-tick errors? 7+6-¦2 = 11GÇô15.

You evidently didn't get the meaning of what I said.

Wilful ignorance is not humorous.

You're arguing the wrong points, the definition is quite clear across all games -- it's not a dev design feature but one players discovered and use to their advantage. That's the definition of a game exploit.

CCP allows it for whatever reason, but it's clear it's an exploit by the gaming definition independent of EvE (which isn't a celestial court for gaming definitions).

Can someone put a figure on the lost ship cost for the gank fleet?

It looks like we have here a mechanic that guarantees the death of the freighter with no possible counter-measures available to the freighter pilot.

Forget the "exploit" crap... the issue is whether the developers want game play to work in ways that industrial ships can get destroyed in all regions by two or three other players.

So how much do you have to spend on the destroyers to get your guaranteed kill?

"Close calls" are rare and the outcome is less important than you seem to think.

I'm not really sure what you're on about, but I can EFT warrior an appropriate fit (even assuming he started at full health) + margin for well under 2m (1m if you'll forgive me for rounding down).

I thought we weren't using the OP because his conditions were muddled?

Or I'm functioning on a deeper level of rhetoric than you

You had an alt there watching it happen and by your own account you had over an hour to get out. Next time just bring your alt with a webbing ship and web your freighter so you can warp out in only a few seconds.

Preemptively? That would be an awfully weird status quo. He did try it once he was caught; the bumpers have a large advantage at that point.

I'm using the three things that are clear: an Obelisk in a 0.8 system against 29 Catalysts. Those are the conditions that matter.

A couple of hundred mill. Not that it matters much. Cost is not a balancing factor, after all GÇö if anything, the ability to kill something as expensive with something as inexpensive shows that a good balance is being maintained.

An hour of bumping and agressing to prevent logout, in high-sec, is harassment.

You had an alt there watching it happen and by your own account you had over an hour to get out. Next time just bring your alt with a webbing ship and web your freighter so you can warp out in only a few seconds.

No, it looks like we have a mechanic that requires a lot of teamwork and effort on the gankers' side and with plenty of counter-measures available to the freighter pilot.

If it's executed flawlessly and without outside interruption, the victim is pretty much dead, as he should be. As illustrated, it's a fairly complex set of actions that need to be taken in a co-ordinated fashion between a number of people GÇö as with most such things, a single player's main option is to try to not find himself in such a situation to begin with. With freighters, in particular, this is best done by not being a worth-while target.

Preemptively? That would be an awfully weird status quo.

Nah, we were discussing the mechanic and you claimed the aggressors needed to commit significant resources to the endeavor (which they don't)

I know you've been pushing this line for years but CCP doesn't really seem to agree with you and have made quite a few changes in order to make sure that ganking is not a risk free certainty.

You twist and turn like a twisty-turny thing.

Post 105 is you telling Ace off. While I can't really fault you for that, it doesn't seem relevant.

put your ~~computer knowledge~~ to the test and design me a computer analysis that can decide which of these two scenarios is "griefing" and which is legimate bumping.

<><><><><><>YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO REDEFINE THE CURRENT RULES TO FIT YOUR ANALYSIS TECHNIQUE<><><><><><>

Specifically, that bumping is currently allowed unless it is harassment.

Scenario a:
- Player A is mining
- Player B bumps him off the rock with the intent to gank him.
- His DPS buddies find a better target, so they go to gank that one instead.
Chat log:
Miner > See!! This is the second time you did this ... you just do it to harass, not to gank! Petitioned!
Ganker > Sure buddy, it's just me and I have no friends

Scenario b:
- Player A is mining
- Player B bumps him off the rock with the intent to do nothing but grief him. He did this yesterday and enjoyed the complaints
- He gets bored and leaves
Chat log:
Miner > See!! This is the second time you did this ... you just do it to harass, not to gank! Petitioned!
Ganker > Tears for the tears throne .. I'll be back!

Now run off to design a machine program that can either:
- determine intent from identical logs
- read English to a level that can determine meaning, without tripping over sarcasm

Of course, you can't, so I will instead wait for you to move the goalposts and backpeddle.

I can tell you from personal experience/literature that it's not hard to pull out 95%+ accuracy in similar applications

Nah, we were discussing the mechanic and you claimed the aggressors needed to commit significant resources to the endeavor (which they don't). Selectively picking details of the OP's loss to focus on is just sillyness.

Not really, no. It's one of the best-known (and most effective) counters you have as a freighter pilot.

Having to pay 15 bucks extra per month to follow your freighter around meta-gaming it into warp faster is not a counter. Its a dumb fix to bad game design.

Not really, no. It's one of the best-known (and most effective) counters you have as a freighter pilot.

No. We were discussing the OP all along, since that's the topic of the thread and since that's where the numbers come from. Trying to suddenly change them into something else is quite silly.

GǪby listing some of the many counters available to the freighter pilot and at the same time pointing out that well-executed teamwork is likely to trump mindless solo play (which is a good thing since that effort should be rewarded)? No, it's about as twisty-turny as a straight line.

Having to pay 15 bucks extra per month to follow your freighter around meta-gaming it into warp faster is not a counter. Its a dumb fix to bad game design.

So don't stuff the thing full of goodies then. Its the most simple answer and works every time.

I'm not saying it's an obscure tactic, I'm saying frigates following freighters around to web them is weird from both a gameplay and roleplay perspective; imagine trying to explain that mechanic to a new player.

I'm not saying it's an obscure tactic, I'm saying frigates following freighters around to web them is weird from both a gameplay and roleplay perspective; imagine trying to explain that mechanic to a new player.

******** argument though. Its a freighter its supposed to be stuffed with goodies. It should be able to be used for its intended purpose to a reasonably reliable degree. How would you like to have your ships suicided regularly unless you left half your slots empty?.

Its like a tugboat.

Its a bulk hauler. For transporting low value high volume cargo its the best ship in the sky. For transporting high value low volume things use a blockade runner or deep space transport, they are built for this kind of thing.