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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |

Horrorzombie
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 13:41:00 -
[571] - Quote
Welcome to EVE that is all. |

Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1941
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 13:42:00 -
[572] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Jeez, this is why I didn't want to give you reading so obviously beyond your ability. I don't what the heck you think statistically significant means, but you're obviously wrong. Honestly, statistical significance is arbitrary enough without you redefining it; I'm really not going to teach you statistics. Their baseline F1-score was 0.2 -- in their male specific case they got this to 0.28, proving that including gender (and potentially other personal information) into their study increased it's performance.
Neither 0.2 or 0.28 are good F1-scores, though (some cases were as low as 0.08), and you would be utterly insane if you wanted to use a system with such a metric of accuracy to determine anything. The difference between the precision and recall scores suggests refining the algorithm will allow it to identify obvious instances, but will largely be at a loss at classifying the entire dataset.
If you want to sit around pontificating over whether such a study could possibly achieve better if not for the limitations in the method, then find me such. I've had a good look around, and this is as good as it gets, which is not encouraging in any way to your point.
You're not going to get very far by simply leaping up and down and yelling that you know more about it than I do, whilst coming up with "evidence" that at best suggests work in the field is progressing.
Yap all you want - when speaking on the subject of "determining harassment by text-mining is easy" you linked a study which literally states "determining harassment by text-mining (even with other data supporting it) is not easy".
I'm laughing at your superior intellect. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15380
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 13:43:00 -
[573] - Quote
Schalac wrote:Suicide ganking them is not an option, as you would need more ISK and people on grid than than the haul is probably worth. This is inherently impossible. A Mach is easier to gank than a Freighter. Bump Machs, in particular, have a tendency to fit lots of stuff that reduces their EHP and/or makes them easier to damage, and not a lot of tank. The reason they're trying to gank the freighter is because the cost of said gank is (much) lower than half the value of haul, or it would be a loss to attempt it. So Value of haul > 2 Times cost of ganking the freighter > Cost of ganking the Mach.
So yes, suicide ganking them is very much an option.
Quote:Sure counterbump a mach, sounds so easy right. Even if you start at your freighter and go right at them, unless you are in a bigger ship that mach is going to just plow right through you. No, bumping does not work that way. What will happen is that both bounce off in new and exciting angles.
Quote:Log off is a great tactic, that is definitely how CCP wants you to counter a game play mechanic. True, they'd prefer it not be used that way (which is why the PvP timer was implemented), but that doesn't change the fact that it does work and that it is indeed a great tactic.
Quote:The rest are non issues. So that still leaves six very viable and immediately obvious counters. On top of this, there are numerous others that could be conceived with a bit of cleverness. Oh, and giving up is always an option. Just because it's not something you prefer doesn't mean it's not an option.
Quote:CCP has changed rules many times in the past. GǪwhen there's been a need to. There is no particular need to redefine harassment in this case, especially since it's still done for in-game profit, which has always been cause for exemption when it comes to in-game activities. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1941
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 13:49:00 -
[574] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Bwhatever It's an Asimov reference you uncultured ****. The irony here being, that a large part of the meaning of the short story can be taken as an argument at how absurd it is to try to prove a negative - something this S Byerley thinks is a good debate technique. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
78
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:04:00 -
[575] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:[Study I claimed was statistically insignificant went well beyond the significance threshold]
Yes, yes it did.
Quote:If you want to sit around pontificating over whether such a study could possibly achieve better if not for the limitations in the method, then find me such.
I don't; their task was harder for a variety of reasons that would be difficult to explain adequately to a hostile layman. You said that it was impossible for an algorithm to judge between cases that boil down to searching text logs for harassment; that's obviously not the case. In reality, I'd expect such borderline cases to be uncommon.
Quote:when speaking on the subject of "determining harassment by text-mining is easy" you linked a study which literally states "determining harassment by text-mining (even with other data supporting it) is not easy".
I said finding you a reference was easy; this topic is popular and highly motivated. In contrast, I've said repeatedly that proper text analysis is hard, but probably not necessary for the task.
Quote:I'm laughing at your superior intellect.
It's a common defense mechanism; unfortunately.
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15380
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:14:00 -
[576] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:You said that it was impossible for an algorithm to judge between cases that boil down to searching text logs for harassment; that's obviously not the case. In reality, I'd expect such borderline cases to be uncommon. That's because, in reality, there are so few cases of harassment and (like with this one) it takes no effort whatever to determine that it isn't. The problem comes when you actually have a case that could be harassment, in which case you will have to dig into other sources to determine the intent, because the actions alone won't do that. So it's only rare in the cases that don't matter GÇö for the cases that do, it'll be obligatory.
Quote:I said finding you a reference was easy; this topic is popular and highly motivated. In contrast, I've said repeatedly that proper text analysis is hard, but probably not necessary for the task. GǪaside from determining intent, which will be required if it is to be classified as harassment. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
78
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:15:00 -
[577] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:S Byerley wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Bwhatever It's an Asimov reference you uncultured ****. The irony here being, that a large part of the meaning of the short story can be taken as an argument at how absurd it is to try to prove a negative - something this S Byerley thinks is a good debate technique.
Oh lawd,
A. They were not trying to prove a negative.
B. The task was difficult because of the rights we afford humans.
C. If that's the major point you took away from the story, I'm genuinely sad.
D. Computing theory has developed with formalisms that make proving negatives as easy as possible - specifically because they're very important to the field. |

Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
358
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:17:00 -
[578] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
tell me more about physics models in a game where ships have maximum velocities
You might expect a "fly by wire" system of ships moving in space to more or less behave as they would in the atmosphere here on Earth. Why? It's what our brains have evolved to understand. For a real world example, I refer you to the utter failure that was combat in Frontier, which had a true Newtonian physics model, compared to the utterly wonderful non-realistic flight model in Freelancer.
Let us apply the "reasonable expectation test" to the model, then. Is it your "reasonable expectation" that a freighter that's 1,000x the mass of some other ship should be prevented from aligning by that other ship bumping into it, for over an hour?
I think the answer has to be "No Victoria. It is not." |

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
78
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:17:00 -
[579] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪaside from determining intent, which will be required if it is to be classified as harassment.
Citation needed. |

Callyuk
Thundercats The Initiative.
6
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:19:00 -
[580] - Quote
Confirming Im stupid bad people How Goons Gank Freighters with the new flagging system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdq5in9fR-Y
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=254193&p=25
Theres a gear at the bottom right in every YOUTUBE video use it |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15380
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:22:00 -
[581] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪaside from determining intent, which will be required if it is to be classified as harassment. Citation needed. See previous GM quotes.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

baltec1
Bat Country
7209
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:24:00 -
[582] - Quote
In the end all this thread boils down to us botching a gank. We are sorry about this and garentee the third one to take no more than ten minutes of your freinds time. |

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
78
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:26:00 -
[583] - Quote
Tippia wrote:S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪaside from determining intent, which will be required if it is to be classified as harassment. Citation needed. See previous GM quotes.
I did a word search for intent and didn't find it; sorry.
|

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
78
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:28:00 -
[584] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:In the end all this thread boils down to us botching a gank. We are sorry about this and garentee the third one to take no more than ten minutes of your freinds time.
You wouldn't have any problem with CCP limiting the timer to 10m then?
|

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
368
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:30:00 -
[585] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:In the end all this thread boils down to us botching a gank. We are sorry about this and garentee the third one to take no more than ten minutes of your freinds time.
Only if it had 6 prepackaged T3s, and if the IsBox owner isn't napping. Can confirm they IsBox.
And you guys really made multiple toons named after your leader? I mean really want to promote having a cult, too??? "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
|

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1473
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:31:00 -
[586] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪaside from determining intent, which will be required if it is to be classified as harassment. Citation needed.
How on earth are you still acting like intention isn't key?
I'll present two really simple situations for you to mull over:
Before we start, lets remember that if I kill the freighter, that is legitimate use of the tactic: I have destroyed someone elses assets, possibly profited from it, etc. So it's absolutely, unarguably valid if I kill it at the end. It is *possibly* harassment if I don't kill it, and instead just keep it stuck without purpose.
Situation 1: I bump a freighter for one hour with my mach just as pure harassment (theres of course an entirely different argument about what constitutes harassment - a single instance, even if it lasts an hour, would not, in my opinion, but thats not relevant right now - lets assume it is). After the hour, I leave, satisfied.
Situation 2: I bump a freighter for one hour with my mach as I intend to kill it. I'm waiting for buddies of mine to get themselves online and in catalysts and get to gate. Something important pops up (wife, phonecall, powercut, whatever) that causes/forces me to leave the game, letting the freighter escape despite my intentions to eventually kill it.
Without making a judgement about my intent, and without being able to know the factors outside the game itself, how would you determine which one is harassment and which isn't?
Hint: You can't
|

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
78
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:35:00 -
[587] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:How on earth are you still acting like intention isn't key?
Because despite all the wailing of you and your friends/alt, you've failed to reference CCP saying anything remotely like that.
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15381
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:35:00 -
[588] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:I did a word search for intent and didn't find it; sorry. GǪand that's why text mining fails as a method: you couldn't determine the intent of the written words. 
Quote:You wouldn't have any problem with CCP limiting the timer to 10m then? That could potentially cause all kinds of problems when it comes to killing stuff, yes. There's also no reason to limit the timer. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1473
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:37:00 -
[589] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:How on earth are you still acting like intention isn't key? Because despite all the wailing of you and your friends/alt, you've failed to reference CCP saying anything remotely like that.
Hey bro you seem to have missed about 90% of my post.
Hope this helps. |

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1473
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:39:00 -
[590] - Quote
Also, have you not seen that big thread about bumping? I'm sure it's been linked numerous times. The gist of that thread pretty much does indicate that bumping, if it's for some legitimate purpose, is valid.
You can make the font bigger if you have a hard time reading the screen |

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
78
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:39:00 -
[591] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:You wouldn't have any problem with CCP limiting the timer to 10m then? That could potentially cause all kinds of problems when it comes to killing stuff, yes. There's also no reason to limit the timer.
Please list one other potential encounter that would be effected by limiting the timer of a passive party in highsec to 10m. |

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1473
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:41:00 -
[592] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:Quote:You wouldn't have any problem with CCP limiting the timer to 10m then? That could potentially cause all kinds of problems when it comes to killing stuff, yes. There's also no reason to limit the timer. Please list one other potential encounter that would be effected by limiting the timer of a passive party in highsec to 10m.
Please list all your reasons for introducing a time limit on ship on ship violence. I'd be interested to see if any of them don't boil down to "baw i dont want to explode" |

Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
1104
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:42:00 -
[593] - Quote
So wow, this thread is still around? Guess the MiniLuv guys are doing something right. :) |

Dyphorus
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
59
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:44:00 -
[594] - Quote
Maybe try not hauling 4 bil worth of cargo at once? You were well beyond the threshold where it becomes profitable to gank a Freighter. Or maybe once you realized you they were setting you up, log off... come back later.
|

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
78
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:45:00 -
[595] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:Quote:You wouldn't have any problem with CCP limiting the timer to 10m then? That could potentially cause all kinds of problems when it comes to killing stuff, yes. There's also no reason to limit the timer. Please list one other potential encounter that would be effected by limiting the timer of a passive party in highsec to 10m. Please list all your reasons for introducing a time limit on ship on ship violence. I'd be interested to see if any of them don't boil down to "baw i dont want to explode"
That has no bearing on the question; I simply asked if he'd have a problem with aforementioned mechanic since he thinks proper ganks should take <10m. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15381
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:47:00 -
[596] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Please list one other potential encounter that would be effected by limiting the timer of a passive party in highsec to 10m. Let's cut out the irrelevant parts of that question before answering itGǪ
I'll give you four: -+ Killing any kind of supercap. -+ Killing some of the sturdier capships. -+ Learning to gank (be it by suicide or lowsec camp). -+ Any attack where the aggressor's numbers means it'll take 10GÇô15 minutes to locate and kill the target.
GǪand, again, there's no reason to reduce the timer to 10 minutes. That means we have a lot of breakage and no advantage. Not the best basis for a change, you know. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
78
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:49:00 -
[597] - Quote
Tippia wrote:S Byerley wrote:Please list one other potential encounter that would be effected by limiting the timer of a passive party in highsec to 10m. Let's cut out the irrelevant parts of that question before answering itGǪ
Seems pretty relevant since all your examples happen in low/null. |

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1475
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:49:00 -
[598] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:S Byerley wrote:Tippia wrote:Quote:You wouldn't have any problem with CCP limiting the timer to 10m then? That could potentially cause all kinds of problems when it comes to killing stuff, yes. There's also no reason to limit the timer. Please list one other potential encounter that would be effected by limiting the timer of a passive party in highsec to 10m. Please list all your reasons for introducing a time limit on ship on ship violence. I'd be interested to see if any of them don't boil down to "baw i dont want to explode" That has no bearing on the question; I simply asked if he'd have a problem with aforementioned mechanic since he thinks proper ganks should take <10m.
Just because the majority of ganks happen in a speedy fashion does not warrant hardcoding times that make it mechanically impossible for ganks that take longer than the norm to succeed. Even suggesting such a thing is preposterous.
It's just... it's unthinkably dumb.
The majority of L4 missions are completed in under an hour, should we therefore make it impossible to complete a L4 mission if you dilly dally and take longer than an hour?
What if we said you weren't allowed finish hauling stupidly expensive cargo in a freighter to your desired destination purely because the trip would take longer than the average freighter trip?
Or anything else equally as stupid |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15381
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:50:00 -
[599] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Seems pretty relevant since all your examples happen in low/null. It's not relevant because the rules apply the same everywhere for the same reasons.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1475
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 14:51:00 -
[600] - Quote
Also, I'm still waiting for you to respond to my post on the last page. How would you determine which of those two situations are harassment if not making a judgement about intent.
I'll give you time to go back and reread it.
Or are you just going to continue ignoring points that expose your arguments for the empty, weak things they are |
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