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Sticky:[Winter] Marauder rebalancing

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 30 post(s)
SMT008 SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse 670	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:47:00 - [241] - Quote CCP Ytterbium wrote: The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances. Counter-point : You're bringing in a new Rank 8 skill. It takes a while to train those. And that skill has the same requirement as the Tactical Weapon Reconfig. Which is also a long skill to train. Both skills allow the use of one specific module, on one specific kind of ship. Why not merge them ? Just make it so that Bastion mods use 0 Strontium per cycle, that'll probably fix your issue, I guess ?
Azriel X Fyght Club SpaceMonkey's Alliance 22	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:48:00 - [242] - Quote Nimrodion wrote: On a side not, how will (if at all) Bastion mode affect target locking, in a way that Triage/Siege affects Carriers/Dreads? Will we have to re-lock targets upon entering/exiting the cycle, the number of targets that can be locked or drone usage? How about make it so that the drone bay is still there but the bandwidth without the module is 0, and when entering it, it gives the ship a +X amount to the bandwidth so that drones can be used but only in bastion mode... ahh? thoughts?
Fire Forager UK Corp RAZOR Alliance 5	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:48:00 - [243] - Quote Falloff absolutely sux, why the hell would you want that instead of the web bonus on the kronos
William Darkk GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 10	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:50:00 - [244] - Quote Now that I look at it again, the drone bay thing is really hideous. The Vindicator has 11 effective turrets and 125mbit drone bandwidth. Please give these at least 100mbit/175m3.
Ersahi Kir The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance 333	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:51:00 - [245] - Quote I want to like these ships but I'm not really all that impressed. With all the training these ships require (MJD's, bastion mod, marauder skill) you can pretty much get into a solid dread that will outperform it outside of high sec. If the goal was to make the ship less PvE oriented I think you failed, as I have a hard time imaging the niche for a high tanking immobile battleship that can't receive remote reps. The idea is neat and all, but I think this is just going to be a second rate level 4 PvE ship behind pirate battleships.
Javon Bars FinFleet Northern Coalition. 9	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:52:00 - [246] - Quote Why would anyone possibly enter bastion for gang pvp? The tanking bonus prevents you from receiving reps, effectively nerfing your tank. You don't get a damage bonus and the optimal range bonus is pointless because currently large long-range weapon systems already provide all the range you'll ever need. EW immunity is pointless because you're going to be out of EW range. There is no reason at all to enter bastion as it is. Unless it gives a significant damage bonus, you're just painting yourself a large bullseye and waiting to die, particularly because both scanning and even a dictor burning will cover the distance in less than the 60 seconds bastion takes. Also: please, please stop bringing out new skills who only apply to one single module and nothing else. It makes a mockery out of the versatility the skill system in the game has. Tactical weapon reconfiguration already covers this scenario.
W0lf Crendraven The Tuskers 192	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:52:00 - [247] - Quote Nope, horrible idea. Go back to the drawing board.
Domanique Altares Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 1215	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:53:00 - [248] - Quote Azriel X wrote: Domanique Altares wrote: Azriel X wrote: Moving these ships to pvp is nice and all but at the expense of slashing its ability to do pve is not really that fair. You know, it's amusing that people keep saying things like this, since most high-end missioners, plexers, and ratters use equally high-end PvP ships with no PvE bonuses whatsoever. Not having a bonus from the get-go is fine it becomes your choice to use said ship. However, what happens to those pilots that already use a marauder and now have to bail on it because there are no drones to deal with the tiny ships you just cant hit? I personally don't use anything above a t3. No need. But I do see other peoples point in this argument. Why can't they hit them? Do their gunnery skills suck? People already MJD around in missions without a bonus to it at all. And whether they are using turrets, missiles, sentries, or both, they manage to blap frigates. And these ships still have adequate drone bay to deal with scramming frigs in missions. Why would they bail on the marauder? Why don't they simply learn to use it within its new strengths? Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter.
Abyss Azizora The Nation of VeldSparta 54	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:54:00 - [249] - Quote Well from what I can see, it'll be fairly useless in fleet fights, and even in the larger gang fights. For PVE it'll also be semi-useless when frigs get in range due to the lack of tracking bonus on ones like the paladin, and the lack of web bonuses. Also why the hell do they STILL have tractor beam bonuses? Get rid of them already, noone that has a clue how to play eve uses marauders for loot/salvage, we all use a noctis now, like your supposed to. I was really looking forward to the changes, and while new models and a mini-siege mode sound awesome. The rest of the changes (and lack of changes) are going to make these garbage in the currently proposed concept. And at everything.
Talcuris Dragon Clan Nulli Secunda 1	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:55:00 - [250] - Quote BASTION MODULE Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized) Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100% Adds non stacking penalized 30% hull resist ... please add increases hull repair amount bonus for the hero hull tankers!

Wizzard117 Viziam Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:56:00 - [251] - Quote Another 2 cents I'd rebalance Bastion module and make it depend on Bastion Trasnformerthingie skill even more like +4% armor, shield and hull resistance per level (since 4% resistance bonus/lvl is a current standard bonus) +2.5% to turret optimal and faloff per lvl (somewhat balancing with different turret types) +5% to turrent tracking per lvl (to keep up with optimal/faloff bonuses) +5% to missile flight time (since velocity bonus is already a Golem's bonus) +2.5% to missile explosion radius (which on lvl5 will almost equal T1 rigor rig, is the only one missile damage application bonus left thus making it on par with CNR) +5% cycle reduction on Bastion module activation per lvl EDIT: +15% to effectiveness of shield and armor repairers per lvl and mb even up to +20% chance of neutralizing enemy ewar attempt (so training this skill to lvl5 makes it ewar immune)
Rowells Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities 122	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:57:00 - [252] - Quote Abyss Azizora wrote: Also why the hell do they STILL have tractor beam bonuses? Get rid of them already, noone that has a clue how to play eve uses marauders for loot/salvage, we all use a noctis now, like your supposed to. Not everyone has the luxury of carrying a noctis around cough nullsec cough
Cerulean Ice EVE University Ivy League 38	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:58:00 - [253] - Quote And a comment about the ship bonuses themselves. Caldari: Tank, Range, Damage application x2 Minmatar: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Gallente: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Amarr: Tank, Range, Damage, Cargo? Um... what? Cargo capacity for the amarr? Why?
Rowells Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities 122	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:00:00 - [254] - Quote Cerulean Ice wrote: And a comment about the ship bonuses themselves. Caldari: Tank, Range, Damage application x2 Minmatar: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Gallente: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Amarr: Tank, Range, Damage, Cargo? Um... what? Cargo capacity for the amarr? Why? um...where do you see cargo in the bonuses? or did you mean capacitor
Robert Harrison Aperture Harmonics K162 10	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:01:00 - [255] - Quote Shiganaru wrote: 2a) Add Skill "Advanced Tactical Reconfiguration"[/b] Basically Dreadnaughts use the advanced reconfiguration skill, while marauders use the normal. Require "Tactical Reconfiguration IV" to train "Advanced Tactical Reconfiguration". The non-advanced skill could also give dreads weapon bonuses, so dreads could fit a bit more tank instead of a bunch of weapons mods. (just a thought) . No... Just no...
Domanique Altares Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 1215	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:03:00 - [256] - Quote Talcuris wrote: CCP Ytterbium wrote: BASTION MODULE Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized) Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100% Adds non stacking penalized 30% hull resist ... please add increases hull repair amount bonus for the hero hull tankers! 90% hull resist with a DCII isn't too bad. Actually, a total 42.5% and 45% non-stacking-penalized shield and hull resist with a DCII aren't bad, either. Cuts down on the number of tank mods in your lows/mids if you intend to try and seige this thing up a lot. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter.
Zoltan Lazar 146	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:04:00 - [257] - Quote This is a huge buff to suicide ganking. Not having to worry about tracking or tackle? Yes please.
Javon Bars FinFleet Northern Coalition. 9	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:06:00 - [258] - Quote An idea: why not make bastion a bigtime alpha module? Something along the lines of 100% damage bonus and 50% rof penalty. At least you'd be giving some incentive to use it, ie: to alpha ships who would otherwise hold reps.
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 2586	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:06:00 - [259] - Quote This is a really interesting move. I have a few things to point out: The 90% web bonus is extremely useful, and I'm saddened to see that bonus removed. It is currently one of the major reasons to field a marauder, as it allows full damage application to just about any ship within web range. If it remained, it would make it extremely hard to "hold down" the Kronos or Paladin, as they can align, MJD, and escape to safety unless they are scrammed, and even a single web means anything within scram range will receive full damage from the marauder. EWAR immunity means you can't track them to save your ass either!. Still, I'm sad to see the bonus go, but I can understand why. That will leave the Vindi, vigilant, Ashimmu, cruor, & daredevil as the only 90% webbing ships. A note on the MJD reactivation delay. This makes traveling through nullsec or lowsec in a marauder very safe. Everyone is familiar with the MWD-Cloak trick... well now we have the MJD cloak trick. Align, Cloak, activate MJD. You don't need to decloak (because the MJD auto-decloaks you at the end of its cycle). You don't need to worry about bubbles, as the MJD will shoot you out of a bubble. The only way you lose your ship, is if you get decloaked and scrammed within the 9-10s it takes your MJD to cycle. The 60s delay between reactivations means you can travel system to system and repeat at will, because it will take longer than 60s to travel through most systems (or you can hold cloak in the next system until the delay is up!). The 8th High slot: This is very nice. The utility highs always make me drool when considering the Marauders for PvP, and extra fitting to utilize them helps immensely. The Bastion... That just makes me smile! You suggested the bonus was mistyped, and it will be +25% Opt, +25% Falloff, and + 5s max missile velocity. This makes much more sense than the bonuses originally posted. As for the module/mechanic, it is pretty niche. Your Marauder will go from repping 500-800 dps, to x2.85 more (1400-2300 dps). I see this wonderful if destroying undefended highsec POS's. It is also hugely beneficial if shooting ships in a mission (where you can tweak your resistances to double that tank, or more likely, focus on dps). However, even a small gang can overpower that tank, and any partially defended POS can too. Cap will still be your main weakness, and neuting a BS dry is much easier than a dread or carrier. It essentially will rely on cap booster for life. This is where I see the new Marauder used, tbh: Highsec Mission running. Better damage projection, better tank, ewar immunity. MJD 100km's, siege, and blap ships coming in! Lowsec & Nullsec Plexing: Same reason its good for Highsec Missions, plus it has risk-free travel (MJD-Cloak trick). Niche Solo vs gang PvP. I don't know where it will be used otherwise, but maybe I'm missing something.
Kimsemus Ever Flow Northern Coalition. 67	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:07:00 - [260] - Quote I was getting tried of fleet doctrines calling for sentry drones. NOW I CAN TURN INTO A SENTRY DRONE MYSELF! :D Seriously though I don't see these getting used in nullsec, not having remote reps is just...lol

Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 259	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:08:00 - [261] - Quote I had a long think about how I might use this ship. I cannot think of a scenario in which it would be useful. Neither can I construct a rational narrative to support bastion mode, so there's a problem there for me. I think if you wanted to see these ships in PVP all you had to do was increase the sensor strength and make no other changes whatsoever. They were fine. I am deeply disappointed by this proposal and cannot in good conscience support it. My apologies. A Capacitor Transporter is a device for transporting capacitors. An Energy Transfer Array is a device for transferring energy from one spaceship to another. Please learn the difference.
Teroh Vizjereij Grim Determination Nulli Secunda 10	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:15:00 - [262] - Quote Quote: You will be adding replacement pants to the NEX store now, right? I second this .. appart from you def. needing to rebalance most of the pve sites .. marauders will just own them with those specs .. but they will be able to solo L5's .. which i highly appreciate. But the applications in PvP .. my pants just went afk
TehCloud Carnivore Company WINMATAR. 114	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:20:00 - [263] - Quote God, I love you all so much right now. Just need to find someone to give me a Marauder & Skillbook for free, because I am niggard as heck! My Condor costs less than that module!
LakeEnd FinFleet Northern Coalition. 48	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:21:00 - [264] - Quote First of all, great job trying to make marauders viable for PVP. The flaw in this plan IMO is that 25% optimal bonus (the only offensive bonus that matters) is not enough reward for me to enter siege-like mode for 60secs where I cant receive remote rep. Large guns already have pretty good range, so to get 25% more on top of that and forgo all logi rep seems like unfair trade off. All the other bonuses you get from bastion are cool and all, but for me to go into bastion-mode, I need better offensive perks: for example damage bonus and tracking bonus. All the defense bonuses are nice, but if I have like couple t1 logistics in my gang, I am better of not entering bastion-mode. I would like to see a role (ie. bonuses) for this bastion that also work outside very small size engagements.
Khaim Khal Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind 8	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:22:00 - [265] - Quote SMT008 wrote: CCP Ytterbium wrote: The new skill is needed because the Tactical Reconfiguration one gives a fuel reduction to Strontium Clathrates. I'm pretty sure you guys don't want to overflow your cargo with those Also, remember the bastion cycle time is only 60 seconds when maxed. For Incursions, you can always pulse it on / off depending on circumstances. Counter-point : You're bringing in a new Rank 8 skill. It takes a while to train those. And that skill has the same requirement as the Tactical Weapon Reconfig. Which is also a long skill to train. Both skills allow the use of one specific module, on one specific kind of ship. Why not merge them ? Just make it so that Bastion mods use 0 Strontium per cycle, that'll probably fix your issue, I guess ? Or just remove the Strontium bonus rom the Tactical Reconfiguration skill, and make it a bonus on the siege module. So you have: Tactical Reconfiguration: Allows use of siege/bastion modules. Higher ranks improve use of those modules. Siege Module: 25-unit reduction in strontium use per level of Tactical Reconfiguration. Bastion Module: 5% reduction in cycle time per level of Tactical Reconfiguration. Note that this is actually how CCP Ytterbium worded the cycle bonus in the first post. He probably didn't mean anything by it, but it works a lot better this way.
Cade Windstalker Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra 55	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:24:00 - [266] - Quote I was musing to myself the other day that the ship rebalancing might end up removing those kind of odd Web Velocity bonuses and it looks like this confirms that theory. Overall probably a good change though I'm going to be sad about no more frig-blapping in Incursions and Missions. Any chance we could get a Web Range bonus instead though? The Paladin's Optimal bonus is pretty good for it but I've never really liked the falloff bonuses on Gallente ships. Hybrids have this weird problem in Missions where the rats are either too close or too far away. If you fit Rails you can hit the things far away really well but can't apply damage to anything within about 20km depending on size. If you fit blasters you can kill anything within 10-20km but anything past that you're tickling. Webs combine with a tracking bonus help a lot with this since you can fit Railguns and just web everything that gets close for better damage application. That's certainly not going away with the velocity factor bonus but it hurts. The ability to web things further out, at least on the Kronos, would be fantastic... :\| I really wish I could say more definitively but that Bastion module is really hard to gauge without some hands-on time with it. It seems really powerful for missions and maybe even Incursions but also frustrating in certain cases as well.
Cerulean Ice EVE University Ivy League 38	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:30:00 - [267] - Quote Rowells wrote: Cerulean Ice wrote: And a comment about the ship bonuses themselves. Caldari: Tank, Range, Damage application x2 Minmatar: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Gallente: Tank, Range, Damage, Damage application Amarr: Tank, Range, Damage, Cargo? Um... what? Cargo capacity for the amarr? Why? um...where do you see cargo in the bonuses? or did you mean capacitor Aha! Sure enough, lysdexia strikes again.
Mainiac IV Digital Undead Inc. Strictly Unprofessional 22	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:31:00 - [268] - Quote Honestly I think this whole idea is bad
Mr Floydy Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 139	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:34:00 - [269] - Quote Like the idea in principle. Not sure on implementation. I think they need a damage bonus in the Bastion mode. Not sure there is enough of an incentive to use it at the moment in a pvp situation. Whilst the extra tank is nice, I'm not sure it will actually be useful in most situations. I guess we'll have to see how it plays out in combination with the MJD bonus. Will hitting Bastion mode instantly stop you, or will you drift like dreads in Siege? Also, with the mass changes - could bring in some interesting moves in wormhole space potentially unless you couldn't jump whilst in Bastion mode. Jump through WH, Bastion at no cost - jump back out probably closing the wh... Can the Paladin actually have a decent bonus over the cap one? The others don't have a bonus called "*% bonus to cargo bay so you can actually store enough ammo to use your guns for more than 2 minutes" On the whole though, could make for some interesting gameplay in smallish gang scenarios. Can see them being especially interesting in wormhole scale fights.

CCP Ytterbium C C P C C P Alliance 2422	Posted - 2013.08.29 22:35:00 - [270] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: GÇóExtends all large turret falloff and tracking by 25% why just falloff and not optimal range? does this not give a big boost to arty/blaster setups and not much for rails and lazors? Nice quote, except the OP mentions turret falloff and optimal




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